Shaka Senghor's Redemption Song | expediTIously Podcast

I remember when I first learned that they was paying 70 cents, I'm like, I'm gonna sue these people. Like, literally, that's my brain straight went there, like, I'm not working for that. And you're forced to work.

Yeah.

And then I realized that you can't Sue because the 13th amendment justifies servitude if you got it, if you're in prison. And I was like, yo, this is like, really slavery.

You know what I mean? We just met in, you know, the past week or so. We was on a panel together. Me, you know, in Charlemagne. We were talking about, you know, prison reform and how to address the epidemic, you know, that exists in our country today. And you have a very interesting perspective on the approach.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is really one of the most important human rights conversations that we should be having, especially for those who come from inner city communities, you know, the hip hop culture. And sadly, we just haven't had it at this massive scale. And I think one of the things that is often missed in the conversation, especially now that it's ramping up and it's become kind of like the thing. Right, right. Is we talk about bringing people home, which is super important, but we're not really talking about how to bring them home healthy and whole. And ensuring that people aren't going back for all these trivial ways, you know, means that they go back for.

I mean. So I think. Okay, let's start with the backstory. Yeah. So you were born and raised in Detroit, right?

Yeah. What up, dog? Detroit.

Okay, so what. What part exactly?

Yeah, so I originally grew up on the east side of Detroit all the way up until I was, like, in about 14 or 15. Then I moved to the west side. So I'm officially good in any hood.

That's right.

I stayed on both sides of town, got friends and family on both sides of town, but I grew up in a household that, on the outside looking in, looked like the model for working class America. You know, my father was in the Air Force. My mother was primarily a homemaker. And unfortunately, as is the case in a lot of instances, you know, my mother was also abusive, and my father was complicit in that. And so when I was around 14, I decided to run away. And, you know, I thought what I thought would happen, and this was like the beginning of the crack epidemic. You know, this is like 86. So, you know what I thought what happened was somebody would see this young kid with all this potential and take me in. But unfortunately, that happens all too Often no more seasoned street hustlers like, yo, here's a way that you provide a means for yourself. And that's how I got introduced to the crack cocaine trade at the age of 14.

Right? I mean, Detroit, man. You know what I'm saying? It's one of the realest places to grow up.

I'm sure it's a different animal. It's crazy. Cause I travel all over the country now and I go to different communities. They be like, let me take you to the hood. And I'd be like, oh, this the hood? Like, it's a little different, you know, And I mean, but the other part of Detroit that's really dope is its contribution to American culture. You know, you got car culture and legendary Motown, but I mean, it's definitely a city of hustlers, you know, people who got that grit to figure out, you know, how to make things happen, even when everything don't look like it's possible.

I mean, we spoke a lot about, you know, the trauma of growing up in certain lifestyles, in certain environments. Like, would you say that, you know, you grew up angry?

Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, going through the abuse. But when I got caught up in the street culture, like within the first six months of being within that culture, my childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death at one time. And I remember, like, laying on the, on the, you know, cold bathroom floor in the back of this crack house and just thinking to myself, like, what type of world do we live in where people will literally beat a kid to death? You know, how old were you then? I was like 14, you know, but despite that, I found myself still deeply entrenched in the culture. And then about three years later, I got shot multiple times. And it's one of the things that, you know, when we talking about criminal justice, we can't talk about that without talking about ptsd. Like, in my family, about eight of us have been shot and about six of us have been to prison for various levels of gun related violence. So it's just a cycle that repeats itself. And, you know, when you're talking about a city where somebody gets literally killed every day, it's just, you know, you can't live in that community and grow up in that community without being impacted by those levels of gun violence.

Yeah, I mean, why do you think so many of us, like, find solace, you know, in the streets?

I think of it always as, like, looking for acceptance and the love that we don't think we're getting at home. And part of. Part of what's really going on in our communities that we don't talk about, there's a lot of in home trauma. And so, you know, when we think about that, you know, the comedians, they laugh and joke about it, like, man, I remember my mama hit me with a bat or a pot. And, you know, and the things that are. Have been normalized in our community, so that ends up running a lot of kids to the streets. And really, people end up banding together around their brokenness, you know, so if you got two broken people looking to fill that void, you know, that's how people start connecting. And so that's where that part of the solace. But then the other part is the independence, you know, the ability to take care of yourself. The culture that's constantly telling you that you don't belong. And so when you get in that environment where you can actually make your own money and make your own way, it's hard to turn that off once you've been exposed to it.

Yeah. I mean, man, you have a very interesting story. Not because you went to prison. It's more about, you know, what you took away from that experience and how you applied it. You know what I'm saying? Especially given, like, how much solitary confinement you actually had to endure. Like, seven years is the majority of a decade. So in solitary confinement for that long, like, what. How do you. How do you process that? Like, what did. How did you make it through and still keep your wits?

Yeah, I mean, you know, when people hear my story, they don't really understand the beginning of my story. Like, I didn't start off as, like, one of the model prisoner type of guys, man. You know, I went in. My first prison was Michigan Reformatory. It was called the gladiator school.

Yeah.

Literally, the first week I'm in there, a guy gets stabbed in the neck on the steps as we walking the child. And I knew in that moment that, you know, I had to make a decision. Either you're gonna be a lion or you gonna be a lamb in here.

Yeah.

And so the first five years of my incarceration, I got into every type of trouble you can think of.

And.

And while I was getting in that trouble, man, I was fortunate to meet, like, real OGs, like, real brothers, real men. And what I mean by ogs. Cause that name is used so freely, you know, in our culture. Yeah. It's tossed around without people really earning that right. And these are men who learn from the wisdom, you know, the wisdom from their mistakes and poor decision making. And they were seeking to impart that on, you know, younger brothers coming through. And at the time, like, when they was coming to me, like, you know, yo, bro, you can do it a different way. You gonna get out? I mean, I'm 19, looking at the next two decades of my life, I can't even see that far down in my future. But they had the wisdom to see that. And so, you know, they started feeding me books, man. And I started off reading Iceberg Slim, Donald Goins, and of course, reading Malcolm, which to me, I think is the most iconic book on prison transformation known to man. And so getting exposed to literature early on prepared me on how to survive and how to manage the environment in a way that was designed to break me, you know? So I remember reading this book called Cages of steel, and there was a psychologist who explained, like, exactly what happens to the human mind when you're in that environment. And he talks about how the longer you keep a person in there, they'll start hallucinating and they'll stop being able to communicate effectively. And so going in with that understanding of what the environment was designed to do allowed me to kind of check myself. And the other part, man, it was just really being exposed to literature of resilient people, you know, Reed, Nelson Mandela, and Assata Shakur and, you know, all these people who had been through, you know, extreme levels of adversity and who had found a way to navigate that. So whenever I found myself, you know, going through the moments of feeling vulnerable, you know, I grabbed Nelson Mandela and just started reading, you know, his story and understanding that he stood in this space with dignity despite the fact that they was trying to crush his humanity.

Right. Long walk to freedom is absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, sir, man. I mean, now you've been being introduced to literature. So early on in your sentence. Do you think your perspective on the things you've read contributed to you being an author?

Yeah, absolutely. So reading those books early on, it wasn't until I was in solitary confinement, and I was really confronting what my life had become. And one day, it just kind of occurred to me. I was sitting there, officer came to my door, and I remember talking to this guy about something really basic. And, I mean, this guy was like a babbling idiot, you know? And I don't generalize people because I think that's unfair. But this specific guy was a babbling idiot. And I said to myself, how is somebody who's intellectually inferior to me controlling my life? And that challenged me to really start thinking about my life differently. And then I ended up getting this letter from my son. And he was probably around 10, 11 at the time, you know, and he wrote me, and he was like, my mama told me, why you in prison? And it was something about reading those words from my son and knowing that not only had I forfeited my responsibility to him as a father, but also, in his eyes, I was a monster. So I wasn't the street tough, you know, street savvy prison yard boss that I fancied myself to be. In his eyes, I was a monster. And I knew as a man that that was a horrible legacy to leave as a father. And what that did is it made me ask myself these tough questions, like, you know, why haven't you stepped up to the plate to change outcomes?

True.

And so what I did is I challenged myself. I said, look, first of all, you need to understand how you got here. So I started writing this journal and started going back and really going back into all the things that had happened. The ptsd, all these things. And then I realized through that process that I had never accomplished anything in my life. And so I challenged myself to write a book in 30 days. And the reason I challenged myself to write a book in 30 days, because I needed to prove to myself that I can complete something. Right. You know, I grew up through that cycle of, like, every time I got caught up, this the last time, I ain't going back. I ain't doing this. And I always was starting stuff but never finishing. And so for me, I was like, if I'm really sincere about this transformation and that I want to honor my responsibility as a father by giving my son an example, a fatherhood that he can be proud of, then I got to complete something. And so I wrote my first book in 30 days. And it wasn't like I didn't have, like, a typewriter or laptop. Solitaire, you know, that little plastic pen they give you in solitary? Right?

Yeah.

I took that and rolled it up in paper, and I wrote for 30 days straight. I'm talking about from the time I woke up to the time my eyes was just burning at night. And so when I wrote that first book, I felt this complete level of just fulfillment that I had never felt.

Yeah.

And I was like, while I can contribute something meaningful to the world, sure. And then I was like, you know, it's cool that you do something once. Anybody could do something good once. But the mark of greatness is the ability to do it over and over.

Right.

And so I wrote that second book, and then I started a third book, and I fell into a deep bout of depression. It's one of the things when I'm mentoring young guys, I tell them about prison. You come from the hood, you can survive prison. You can scrap. You've probably been scrapping your whole life. You might shank a cat or two. So you can survive that part, Right. What is devastating is when you wake up one day and realize your own potential and realize that you're wasting it. And so for me, when I realized that, it was the most depressing experience I had. And so I went through that depression for a while, and then I just had this moment where I was like, you know, in adverse circumstance, you gotta make a decision about who you really are and who you wanna evolve to. And I was like, you know what? I can't quit on me, you know? So I kept writing. I got out of solitary, typed my books up, and I literally would send my books out, man, to random publishers. You know, I didn't know nothing about the publishing industry and I never would hear back from him. And one day, instead of just giving up, I bought a book on self publishing. Taught myself how to self publish. Published my first book from prison in 2008. And right after I published the book, I got sued by the Department of Corrections for the cost of my incarceration. Damn, that's crazy. Sued me for like a million dollars, bro.

Did they win?

No. So technically they won a lawsuit. I didn't have no money to give them, but what I did is I backdated a contract to myself saying that I would accept 10% of the proceeds once the company recouped its production costs.

Right.

And the lawsuit was only binding as long as I was in prison. So I just made sure I didn't make no money until I got out. So they technically didn't get a dime.

But, you know, I mean, just. That's crazy, man. To set up this big elaborate scheme, you know, to catch people in the sling of law. Yeah. Just to lock them up, make them work for cheap labor. And should they find a way to make a way for themselves, you sue them.

Yeah, man. And you know what was crazy?

Money they've never even seen before.

Yeah. And what was crazy about it is I had this moment where that old narrative came back, man. These people ain't gonna let me make it. You know what I'm saying? And so I had to do that self check of like, you know, this is just one more obstacle in life. You either go around it go under it go through it. But you still have to decide whether you want it to defeat you or not. Like, that's a ch. And so I was like, you know what? I'm smarter than these people anticipated. So I knew a little bit about the law. That's why I did the contract. But what it did, man, is it strengthened my resolve to make it, because it set me up for life when I got out. And I knew early on that it was going to be a process, that I was going to have to get out and make it happen. And honestly, I want to salute you as one of the many brothers within the industry who I model what I do with books off of what y' all was doing with hip hop, man. And I honestly appreciate, you know, the sense of ownership, you know, the independence. And so basically what I did, I was like, you know, I hustled in the streets my whole life. You know what I mean? And I'm like, if I can make money in this industry, in the streets, and I got a legitimate product, I'm gonna take that same mentality and incorporate that into how I move with books. And so what I did, I invested my own money, bought books for the low $2 a book, sold them for 15 a pop, and when I walked out the door, the first thing I did outside of what was the obvious expectation, Right. But literally the first thing I did was sold a book in the parking lot at a parole office. And I ain't stopped selling books since then. It's going on 10 years now.

That's fine, man. So you sold three books total?

No, I wrote a total of six. I self published four. What a lot of people don't know about Right and My Wrongs is I originally self published that book.

Okay.

I ended up getting a book deal and getting mainstream publishing after I got interviewed by Oprah.

That'll do it.

Yeah. Which was a wild scenario. You know what I mean?

But I mean, like, as much as you care to discuss.

Absolutely.

How you go from selling your first book in the parole office to sitting down with op.

So, you know, again, going back to that street model. So moving around a lot of my younger years, I learned networking, and I learned the value of your network. So I can move in any neighborhood based on the network I had.

Right, sure.

And so when I started selling books, I knew coming home, I could just move anywhere and just go talk to people, and I'd have people in different areas. So start off, I'm talking about hitting the barbershops, hair salons, man. I'm talking about strip clubs, cabarets, wherever people were at. I was at with Books Hospital. Sometimes I would just like roll through there with a duffel bag of books. Shopping mall. I roll up on people like, yo, get this book, right? And then I would set up like local book signers, right? And like 15 people would show up, 20 people, 30 people. And the book people would be like, oh, that's a lot of people. In my mind, I'm like, yo, this ain't turning over fast enough. And one time I got invited to speak and it was a room of like a hundred or so people. And I sold more books than I sold setting up the book signing. So I switched the model. I was like, if I can book more speaking gigs, I can sell more books. So I went from literally selling, you know, 15, you know, 15 books at a bookstore to selling 100, then 200 and 300 books. And like, even when I put right my wrongs out, I literally did the book release at the Charles H. Wright Museum in Detroit. And I remember the lady saying, well, you know, books sell, you know, books don't do too well in this space, right? I literally had 400 people turn out to the books. And I'm literally hustling both sides of town, passing off flyers. Me and my ex, who's mother, my son, we grinding. My team, my friends. And so what happened with Oprah was I was speaking at an event and I looked at the list of people who was there and I didn't know a lot of them. They all seem really important. And so I told my partner, I was like, yo, I think I should send like a hundred books to this event. And she was like, no, we don't even, like, really, we ain't had no money in account, you know, and so on the books, 100 books was like 2,500, which is when you broke. It's a lot of cash, right? And I was like, you just gotta trust me on like, trust my instinct on this. And so, against her judgment, I sent the books out for free when it spoke. And literally months later, I get this call. Oprah wants to interview you.

What?

And first I was like, yo, this crazy, yo, like Oprah, right? But turns out one of the women there gave her the original book. So when you watch the interview, she doesn't have the book that's on the shelf now, okay? She got the altar trunk joint, which is like one of my proudest moments.

The self published one.

And she tells the story of being 60 pages in is like, I want to interview this guy.

Wow.

And her and I had an interview. We were scheduled for 45 minutes. We talked for three and a half hours straight and became real friends. And she's been so inspired by my work and who I am and how I show up in the world. And she started incorporating that into, like, some of her art Queen Sugar. If you know the character, I know the audience know Ralph Angel. Uh huh. An original pilot. He wasn't formally incarcerated. And so for me, like, that shows the power of art, where you can really start telling these stories in a way and incorporate it in an organic way. And then also was a consulting producer on one of her shows called Release. So Oprah's definitely super dope, man. But that moment of driving up to her home, like she did the interview was in her home.

Damn.

Like, it wasn't at a studio. It was like literally in her home.

Oprah invited an ex con into her personal space.

Yeah, Literally in her home.

That's all right.

Yeah, it was super dope, man. And I just remember that moment, though, of driving through the gates. And for me, what it did is it validated what I knew to be my purpose as a storyteller and as a writer. Because when I started writing, I didn't want to be just a good writer for somebody who happened to be incarcerated. I want to be one of the best, period. And that was the. My aspiration came while I was in solitary, right? I wrote the first book and the guy was like, you know, I'm asking the brothers, y' all want to read this? And the brother was like, man, don't nobody want to read that shit. This ain't Oprah's book club. And, you know, I couldn't get to the cat. We in the cell, right? So I'm like, okay. Instead of me getting really mad, this is my first goal, right? Get open to read one of my books. So I literally wrote all my goals down. Open to read a book. New York Times bestseller. Turned it into TV shows, movies, et cetera, Right? And I started writing down goals for my life. And I basically have checked off pretty much all of those goals since I've been out.

Man, that is extremely important. The law of attraction.

Absolutely.

You know what I'm saying? What you put out into the universe, it will return back to you one way or the other for sure. Now, we have a tradition here. This is what we call fellowship and communion.

Let's do this.

1942 is my beverage of choice.

It's one of my favorites.

All right, well, here you Are I will offer you a chance to put some ice in your cup if you like it. For your own troubles, my friend.

Let's do this.

Now, another thing that, you know, another thing that you pointed out when we were. When we were talking before is, I mean, how if you made it through living through life in the hood, that you could survive in prison.

Absolutely.

And that's very important because it's extremely true.

True.

But it raises the question, why? Is it because we've been. We're being conditioned for prison as soon as we're born?

Absolutely.

You know, I think that has a lot. That said, that holds a lot of weight, that statement.

I mean, it's so sad but true. When I came home. So one of my other responsibilities outside is figuring out how to make it on his side was mentoring.

Right.

And I remember walking into a high school that was in worse condition than any prison I've ever been in. And you could see the police, like, state in the uniforms and an actual security guard with the same kind of correctional officer uniforms.

Yeah.

And so very early on, you know, it's programmed into the culture, like survival. And there's a big difference between survival and thriving. And so when I speak of guys being able to survive, I always tell, you know, the kids when I met, especially the kids in the tough school, like, look, your counterparts couldn't show up the way that you show up and still be productive. So there's resiliency there. Right. So the survival is really about being resilient. That's encoded in our DNA. Our ancestors had to survive for us to be here right on circumstance was tough, you know, so that's embedded in our DNA.

Sure.

And when I share that with the young brothers, it's because I want to take that, like, I don't believe in that scared straight model. You can't scare a cat straight who been on the block getting shot at with a chopper. Yeah. Like, come on, bro, you can't scare them straight. So I believe in loving them straight. And part of that is being honest with them. Like, if you're resilient, you know, that's built into who you are. Right. You'll survive that environment physically, you know, but psychologically, it's devastating what it does to you and how it changes you as a human being into this very primal, animalistic way of thinking. Like, when I first hit the yard, I mean, I can show you this picture, bro, of like, the difference between my eyes when I was in there and where I'm at today. Right. You know, and it's just a survival mechanism, you know. And so once I got out of that survival loop and I was like, yo, I can actually thrive, but I gotta put the work in. And I mean, I mean, I read constantly, like nonstop. I'm an avid lover of books. You know, I trained myself as a writer, self taught. I didn't have a co author. And you know, again, I was inspired by the things that, that lifted me up while I was in there, you know, listening to music when we were fortunate enough to get it. Like that saved my life, you know, being able to laugh with the brothers who were great storytellers and great thinkers and strategists. Without those brothers, you know, we don't survive. So to me, you know, it's not about celebrating the fact that we can survive. Because that's really the sad part of it is survival is necessary, but it's not the holy grail of what it means to be human. And thriving is more optimal, you know. And so for me, it's like going through that, I knew that coming out on the other side that I want to thrive, bro. Like, I don't want to live a marginalized existence, you know, and that's what the system is trained for us to do. Like, when I came home, they was like, yeah, just get a job at the local gas station, you know, under the table. Because they're not even going to hire you legitimately. Right, right. I'm like, that's not the life of me. That's like a prison in itself, you know what I'm saying? And to me, freedom like happened in my mind well before I walked out them doors, you know, reading books, like, as a man Think of, Think and grow Rich, you know, all the masterful thinkers around mental liberation. So, like, that's what I try to exhibit to, you know, my mentees as well as my young son.

I think. I mean, I think that's, that's, that's astronomical that you could pull that out. Like, you know what I'm saying? Being in very dark spaces, you know, one or two things are going to happen. Absolutely. Either you will succumb to the darkness or you will find a beacon of light. You know what I mean? So tell me, what the hell did you do that led to being in solitary confinement for some years?

Yeah, so I did a total of seven years. I did four and a half years straight.

That's enough.

Yeah, yeah, right. So the first couple times was assault on other guys in a joint. I tried to veer away from calling them inmates cause they're still human beings, absolutely. Brothers and fathers and things like that. But I got into conflicts early on in my bit. But the longest stretch I did was from 1999 to 2004, and it was for assault on a staff member.

Gotcha.

And so, just to give some context, like I was. Because I was highly literate and had the ability to communicate, I advocated a lot for justice inside prison, right? So I've been doing this work for a long time. Social impact work in that environment, writing grievances for guys who couldn't read, standing up when I knew injustice was happening and taking that risk of being, like, going to solitary. And so one time, I actually was standing up for myself. Me and this officer, we got into a conflict. Couple of days later, he approached me, you know, wouldn't allow me to use the restroom. And I basically asked my. You know, I was like, listen, there's one or two things gonna happen here. One, either you want me to go back and dehumanize my bunky by peeing out the window or whatever the case may be, or I'm using this bathroom. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not gonna. You know, I'm gonna choose my humanity in every situation that's real. So I walked past the officer, and then on the way out, he confronted me. He actually put his hands on me first, and then I beat him. And then he literally almost died, and they had to save his life in front of the unit. And that wasn't my intention, but those are just the facts of the case. So I was sentenced to an additional two years in prison and ended up doing four and a half years in solitary. And the crazy thing is, he violated every protocol. First, he put his hands on me when I attempted to leave. He never pushed his personal protection device, which is to alert them that there's a conflict with a guy inside. So he violated all the protocol. But despite all that, I still was found guilty because, you know, I'm a brother on lockdown, you know. But, you know, I remember my father writing me, and I. You know, he wrote me, and I was just like, you know, he was like, there's some things about prison that I'll never understand, and I have to respect your decision. And I wrote my father back, and I said, you know, I don't know if I'm ever gonna get out of this place. But what I do know is that every day that I wake up in here, I'm gonna choose my humanity over anything, before anything. And if y' all have to go on with y' all life, then I understand, because that's just who I am as a person, you know? And so my father just. He a dope dude, you know, he was like, look, I can't tell you that I get. I can even relate to it. But he like, I ain't going nowhere. You know what I'm saying? And we gonna ride this out, whatever it has to be. So, you know, having that type of support from family, you know, specifically my father, during that time of my life was, like, crucial, you know? Cause it's hard when you have to make that decision on your humanity over the opportunity of losing the rest of your freedom. But to me, it's a choice I make every time, man.

I think you bring up an excellent point of the importance of, like, a strong support system.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? I think that so many of our brothers who get time, you know what I'm saying? They lost and forgotten. At least it feels that way. And I think that there's been a very intentional, out of sight, out of mind kind of strategy. That's you. Especially the feds, you know what I'm saying? It seems like they try to make it more and more difficult for people to visit you, to kind of divert them away from the thought or the idea of coming to see you, I guess. Like, what do you think? Like, what are some cases? Because I saw some and I wasn't there nearly as long as you, but what are some cases where the lack of a support system really drove somebody over the edge? And it's important I say that because people who are listening, everybody know somebody who locked up.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know what I'm saying? But what they don't see is when they don't press 5 when the phone rings, or when they ain't, you know, sending in pictures or just. Just continuing some level of a connection, they don't see what happens on the other side of it.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's. It's something I've given a lot of thought to. Anytime I'm traveling, I'm by water, specifically on the east coast. When I'm by the Atlantic.

Right.

You know, I think about our ancestors who were stripped from the continent and to lose connection with everything that you've known. And it happens for a lot of, you know, brothers and sisters who are actually the providers of their family, the patriarchs, the protectors, all the things. Right. You know, and when you wake up and nobody's there and all the people that you thought loved you and cared about you, and they won't write you a letter, and they won't come visit you. Like, I went 17 years without seeing my mother.

What?

And I remember when she came to see me after 17 years, my ex brought her up there, and I was just like, you know, and I was in a space of forgiveness, which I think is important because it was really about my own healing. But I remember thinking to myself, like, there's nothing that my child can do that wouldn't warrant me coming to see them and visiting them.

Right, sure.

And so what I say is that I've seen so many people lose it, man. Like, you know, when they're just hanging on because it's such an isolating place, even though it's so full of people, you know, and especially if you're trying to turn it around and you're trying to figure out and fix it, it reinforced the idea that you're not lovable, that you're not worthy.

Right.

That you're not worthy of the sacrifice of somebody taking five minutes to write you a letter.

Right.

Taking a couple of minutes to send you a picture, taking a couple of dollars, you know, that one drink you about to buy at the club, you can send to your cousin or your brother, and you choose not to.

Yeah.

And so. But on the flip side, I'm also sensitive to the families who struggle financially. $15 mean a lot to some families, but a stamp, you can get a stamp, you know? But I think sometimes it's the shame. It's the embarrassment that they feel of not knowing what to do. So we try to support that. I support so many of my guys in the joint, their families. I support their families almost more than I support them, because sometimes they just need to talk like, is my baby gonna be okay? You know, how's he doing? You know? And so, you know, I've watched so many brothers commit suicide, you know, end up on the Medline. It's the saddest thing is when they call Medline and you see brothers you grew up with, and you see that they got to that point where they broke down, and the only way that they can cope is by getting medication. And if they not getting it out the Medline, they taking it out the store, and it's devastating, you know? And so I'm happy you brought that up, man, because that's the important part of when people come home.

Yeah.

You know, when I came home, it was interesting. And I mean, I'm definitely most evolved and thought, you know, thought evolved on a lot of levels. So I knew how important it was for me to forgive anybody who had abandoned me or who I felt like abandoned me. But I had these moments when I came home where with my family, you know, and I got. I love my family, you know, Right? But I would have moments when I would be around them and be like, man, I was in prison for 19 years. When I pull up now, you like, hey, nephew. Hey, cuz. And I'm like, you didn't write me one letter when take a phone call, right? And like, just that jarring nature of how they reverted right back to the same love before I went to the joint, as if the 20 years didn't happen, right? I would have moments where I'd be like, yo, what the. Like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? Yeah, but because I understand the systemic nature of it and historical nature, I didn't let that take root in a negative way. But I talk, you know, I talk to my younger cousins and like, you know, I got nephews that's locked up. I got a brother that just came home. And, you know, I'm always telling them, like, yo, you gotta. You gotta write, you gotta respond. You gotta do some things, you know, because that's part of the healing, right? Like, you can't come back home if you don't, you know, healthy and whole without feeling loved and supported.

You gotta have a release.

Absolutely.

And a sense of accomplishment. Like you said earlier, man, you know, you challenge yourself to do something and in 30 days you wrote a book. And I mean, with no co author like you did. Your punctuation, like you did.

I did. I did, yeah. You know, it's crazy because I, you know, I read so many books, though, you know, I read so many books, you know, And I mean, eventually, what.

The is the semicolon, man?

You know, that is probably the most complex.

When do you use a semicolon?

Every now and then I found a way to use. I'd be like, yo, I'll just use that motherfucker, right? Yeah, yeah, look cute. It looks slick right there.

Sentence look fancy, man, all the time.

You know what I mean? It's crazy, though, because, like, when I first started, though, I was definitely like, oswald base. Remember? Oswald base for living color, man. I was writing all these big ass words. Yeah, but, you know, I was reading the brilliant writers, man, the Harlem Renaissance writers. And, you know, they inspired me, man, to really understand language, you know? But the craziest thing. This is no bullshit. Hip hop is like one of my greatest literary inspirations, okay? Like, I Grew up. I grew up with it from a kid, like, you know, I mean, I'm 47. I know I don't look like it, but I'm 47. You know what I mean?

Well, I mean, you definitely been kind of purified.

But, I mean, I listened to lyrics like, you know, Rakim was always one of my favorite in terms of, like, what he would do with inside the bar structure. And as a writer, you know, I realized that that was my rhythm. So I'm listening to hip hop when I'm writing, right? And I have a whole system, right? So when I'm first just getting the story out, I listen to rock and roll and jazz. And then once I got the story.

Down, any reason why rock and roll and jazz?

Because they. I feel like conception. Yeah. So. So with the conceptional part, I think rock and roll and jazz is very cinematic, and I'm a very visual writer, so I want people to feel like they're in a scene, right? And it's very chaotic and very unstructured, but still it finds its place, right? And then once I got the story down, when I'm just polishing it up and I'm, like, going back through chapters and, you know, going sentence by sentence and word by word, I don't want every word to count. That's when I'm listening to hip hop, you know, so this whole system, then when I'm done, I'm like, let me throw on something smooth so I can just celebrate. You know what I mean?

That's what's up.

Yeah, bro.

I mean, you also spoke on this earlier. The amount of talent and, like, from storytellers to comedians to, like, visual artists to, I mean, basketball, football, you know what I'm saying? Like, the amount of real talent that helps us while we, you know, pass in time. This. I think that these things could be applied in many different areas of commerce.

Absolutely.

In society, every prison got at least two or three superstars in every category.

Every category, you know what I'm saying?

At least. Yeah, I think that says a lot to. To, like, we. We become a community. You know what I'm saying? It's not on Oz, like, you know, getting shanked and raped every day. Right, right, right, right. It'll build up to that. And, you know, you have your fair share.

Yeah, it's prison, you know what I mean?

But overall, it's a community.

Absolutely.

People who actually have to live.

You got your cook, you got your electrician, you got your shank maker.

Mess hall once, man. Come on, bro.

Yeah. Cause you got the chefs, man.

You know what I'm saying? That is, I believe, like, how can we. And I actually taught a class on this when I was down. How can we take those same applications of skill and direct them toward some level of effective productivity when brothers get out and sisters too?

Yes, absolutely. No, I'm happy you asked that question because I think it's one of the things that's the most important in terms of what I've been able to do with sharing my story. Right? So part of the reason I share my story so freely is because I really want people to understand that I'm no different than everybody else that's being thrown away. I just made different choices. That's right. And the thing is, you got other people in that environment who they have all the potential in the world. Like, seriously, like, I'm talking about some of the dopest artists. I taught a class at the University of Michigan, okay. For three years. Three. Yeah, three years, actually, like three years, right? Three semesters. And I remember when I first started teaching, like, I was like, man, I got a ged, but I'm here teaching at one of the top universities out of prison. Like, literally, I've been only been home a couple of years, right? And my students would go inside the prisons and what we would do is we curated creative writing, visual arts, and they taught theater and all this stuff. Right? And so every year in the University of Michigan, we host the largest exhibition of prison based art and a level of art, bro. Like, I got a Bob Marley piece that's so fire, bro. A guy did with pencil, I'm talking about, you can see the hair follicles that a brother did with a pencil. Right? And so for me, storytelling has been my way to humanize the brothers that I left behind. And I'm specifically saying brothers, that's where I was at, is a male joint, Right? Right. And these are actually my friends. But to humanize their experience. And I think that taking people back inside, you know, really so they can actually see who was in there. Because there's the image, right? It's the image that media portrays. It's the guy you scared of, the thugs, whatever the case may be.

So much more than that.

Absolutely. You know, and so I mean, there's artists in there and Crazy. True story. So I also was a fellow at MIT Media Lab.

Okay.

I did a prison hack. And basically I challenged all these top scientists, students and all this to solve like five things that we do in prison all the time. Make a stinger the thing you use to heat the water up, make a tattoo gun, make a fish line, literally. I gave them like five design challenges. They couldn't complete one of them, but these brothers in the joint complete them like this.

That's right.

And so what it told me is that who's controlling the narrative around what genius is, what talent is, is the one often dictating how the rest of the world sees. And so for me, as a writer, being able to share these stories, I'm like, this is my responsibility to tell these real stories so people can see and to create these spaces for people to see what's actually on the inside. So to your point, man, there's so many dope people on the inside, and we need to figure out. Excuse me. How to access that.

Yeah, man, I think. I mean, you know, on the panel, you raised an excellent point. You raised the point of compensation while we're in prison being cents an hour, cents on the dollar every hour. But you worked. You worked at this place. However much you made there, you still developed a certain level of experience in this industry. But when you get out, that experience does you no good. You can't go there. You would think you could go to that place and get a job easily, them knowing that you've been working for them for 17 cents an hour for 10, 12 years. Yeah, but that's not the case, though.

Yeah. And I mean, it's. It's one of the things when we're talking about the system as, you know, a complex, you know, prison industrial complex and the exploitation of free or cheap labor. That's why so many people end up going back. It's not because they committing new crimes. It's because they got all these trivial, you know, parole, probation violations. And it's a reason because it's big money industry, you know, and so to know that these companies, these corporations, some of people's favorite corporations, you know, have. Have used prison labor, you know, Whole Foods, Victoria's Secret, actually. Let me. Yeah, those people. Right.

And who else are some of them? Are they still participating to this day?

I don't know where they at with it now, because once people start getting called out on it, people started kind of shrinking back or paying wages that were considerate, but it's so many of these couples.

So you mean to tell me. Yeah. That guys who haven't even been around no pussy. Right. Is making lingerie for 17 cents an hour?

Yeah, sometimes it's some of the. I don't know exactly what they was making when they were actually Invested in it. But sometimes it could be something like the clips or whatever the case may be.

Oh, I got you.

And then sometimes they may be running, like, the call centers or whatever the case may be. But, you know, the crazy thing is, like, a lot of these companies will not hire a person with a felony when they get out, right? And, like, that's the part that's super problematic and crazy. And these companies, they pay a little bit better than, like, the state pays. Right. My first gig in the joint, I was getting paid 17 cent an hour working in the kitchen.

Right.

And then I moved up to first. I decided that I wasn't doing anything that didn't help the guys in prison. So I began to only do, like, law library things like that. That was helpful. I can really be helpful. And that went up to, like, a dollar something a day.

Okay.

Make like $54 a month. You know what I mean? But some of those other jobs may pay, like, you know, a dollar hour, a dollar twenty hour. That's considered a. A good gig in the joint. But it's the prison model. You know, the thing about it, I remember when I first learned that they was paying 70 cent, I'm like, I'm gonna sue these people. Like, literally, that's my brain straight went there, like, I'm not working for that. And you're forced to work.

Yeah.

And then I realized that you can't Sue because the 13th amendment justifies servitude if you got it, if you're in prison. And I was like, yo, this is, like, really slavery. You know what I mean? And our people didn't really know about that until, like, ava dropped the 13th, which was a brilliant film.

Absolutely.

That really made that massive connection, man.

I think another thing that you are very heavy on is self improvement.

Absolutely.

Self reflection. Looking in the mirror at your reflection and being honest with who you are, how you got there, and what it takes for you to make the necessary changes to advance. I think that's incredibly important because a lot of our youngsters, man, they really just kind of avoiding criticism.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? They just moving through life, and they either trying to sweep all they bullshit under the rug instead of dealing with it, allowing it to fester, or they simply just never really have any high level of accountability, you know what I'm saying? I think the lack of accountability allows more heinous, unspeakable things to happen.

Absolutely.

What was the moment, right, that you remember in prison that changed your life? What was the genesis of your transformation?

Yeah, I think it was a series of things. I call them my three miracles. Two of them I talked about, which was having them incredible mentors, brothers who challenged my thinking. When I would take those books back to the libraries, the brothers would be like, okay, so what happened in chapter 10 on page. What's more like they mastered these books, right? And I would sit there and debate with them. I'm like the young cat. I love to debate and talk that talk, Right. And these guys were shrewd, man. I'm talking about. They're shrewdicians and just really strategists. And these guys would really just challenge me to think, like, you know, well, what did this person mean in this chapter? You know?

Right.

So that was pivotal for me. And then, of course, the letter from my son. But I also received a letter from the woman who said that she raised a man whose life I'm responsible for taking. And I remember getting that letter and her when I first started reading it, like, I wanted to ball that up. I didn't want to be responsible. You know, I was the trigger guy. I was like that. You know, that guy in the hood. And I remember reading those words, and she was like, not only do I forgive you, but I love you. And in that moment, I didn't feel worthy of her love or forgiveness. Right. And so that was something that I knew that I had to work to understand with myself. And when I got real with myself with the journaling, and I was just like, okay, this is all the shit I have to own, you know, this is how I showed up in the world. Like, it was life changing to me. You know what I mean? So not to me, no matter what happens in my life, I'm responsible.

Sure.

And the thing about. Culturally, you know, of course, there's the systemic things. Of course there's racism and all the other things, but no matter what these things are, you still have a choice of how you want to show up for you.

That's right.

You know, and if you're responsible for another life, you know, you're responsible for children. Like, to me, to know that I have forfeited my responsibility as a father. Like, I couldn't walk around as a man and feel like a man knowing that I wasn't giving my all to turn that around for him, you know what I'm saying? And we don't have the best relationship to this day. And I had to own that, you know what I'm saying? So to me, it's just like being crucified in that Fire, you know, you got to put yourself through it. And you know what I try to impart to the young brothers and young sisters is you gotta be around people that honor who you are. Like, all my dudes who are really my friends in the joint, and these are guys I still take care of and still connect with. Like, these brothers challenged me to think differently. You know, they called me out when, like, yo, bro, you want. You gonna scrap a dude because he fouls you on the court? That's what we doing. Like, you don't got control of your emotions, so it's like all the things that you not, like, you don't have to typically check in the hood. Like, and you talk about it on the panel, which I was like, this probably went over some people's head. Cause they, like you, was like, no, it's some real structure in there. Right? Cause it's life or death choices.

Absolutely.

But it's also about maturation and what it means to really be a man and a warrior and a king. Right? And that's. You can't have that without somebody saying, hey, bro, you.

You.

You wilding right now. You know what I'm saying? Like, check that, you know? And sadly, a lot of these guys are super fragile, you know, Like. Like I was watching all the fallout from, like, the. The Tekashi cat, right?

Yeah.

And I'm watching this and I'm like, people are like, shocked, but I'm like, yo, the culture is set up where you don't. You didn't even have to earn that. Like, I grew up in the streets where you gotta earn your way in. You know what I'm saying? You gotta earn your way in the joint. You don't just get boss level. You don't call shots without putting work in.

That's right.

You know what I'm saying? Without consulting with the OGs, without them giving you their blessing and really saying, hey, you're the one. You know what I mean? Like, even now, like, I check in with my OGs in the joint out of respect for what they built. You know what they gave me? You know what I'm saying? Like, that gift that they gave me, the wisdom to discern through the. You know what I'm saying? Like, what type of. I can't call myself a man if I don't reach back to them brothers.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Wise men seek wise counsel.

Absolutely.

Still sharp and steal.