Ashley Wellington-Fahey with Shane Mac

Hello everyone, welcome to the Ask Interview series. My name is Shane Mac and I am so excited for who I have in the studio today. I have the CEO of the new sports media company called The Relish. Her name is Ashley Wellington. We've actually known each other for almost 10 years, watching her from Seattle to now raising her first funding round, building a company. We talk about everything from where she grew up, her obsession with sports, feminism in the world, and really how much diversity matters and how to believe in yourself. I hope you enjoy this. How are you?

Good, how are you?

I'm great.

So good to see you.

Yeah, you as well. Tell me, where are you from?

I'm from the Seattle area, Edmonds, Washington.

It's like north of Seattle, right?

Yeah, like 15 miles north. I always say it's like the Sausalito of San Francisco or Seattle.

I have a clear vision of what it looks like.

Yeah, it's like a little, uh, fairy town on the water.

I actually think my brother has a sailboat in the Edmonds Marina.

Oh really? Yeah, I grew up going there. Yeah, yeah, every weekend my, my dad's side of the family would like take the boat, my grandpa's boat, over to Kingston and we'd like put crab pots in the water and then go out to the beach and go clam digging and make a whole weekend out of it.

Yeah, isn't that— there's a Navy ship right at the end of the marina that sits there all the time. Is that right, Edmonds?

I don't think— I think that's maybe Mukilteo, or maybe that's down south. I don't think that's Edmonds. Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe, maybe there is one now and I just haven't been back in a while.

And did you grow up boating your whole life?

Yeah, sailing? No, no, no, no. Uh, my best friend Katie is a sailor and she calls motorboat stinkpots. So I guess I'm a stinkpot.

Why? What does that mean, a stinkpot?

Like, I don't know, there's boats that have motors that stink up the ocean, I guess.

Oh, so she's saying sailing is the only way because we're polluting, I guess. Got it.

I've never really asked for a deep dive on why it's called a stinkpot. I just assume that's why.

Got it.

Yeah.

So you grew up in Seattle and you're a Mariners Seahawks diehard fan?

Diehard.

And formally, what does diehard mean to you as a sports fan?

I mean, that's a great question.

Did you paint your face?

I, I don't think I've ever actually painted my face. So for me, like, as a kid, I, I— so I'll tell you the story about how I even became a sports fan. I think it's kind of good.

It's a great story.

So my parents are going through a divorce when I was like Between the ages of like 8 and 10, and around 10 was when they like— it became finalized. And at this—

so hold on, 2 years of like off and on, you're old enough to know what's going on but you don't really?

Yeah, so they were like separated for 2 years and then they got divorced when I was 10. And at this— right at this time, the Mariners, who were horrible forever, uh, finally started getting good and they had a shot at actually going to the playoffs. And it like brought the whole city of Seattle alive. It was 1995. And if anybody's listening to this that's a Seattle fan, they will be like probably getting chills. Actually, there's a Macklemore song called My Oh My that goes into the whole— we could listen to it if you want, uh, that talks about this season. Anyways, 1995 Mariners, yes, the best year ever. So, uh, this is like the Bulls back when I was a Bulls fan.

Oh, the Jordan.

Yes, it was like Yeah, exactly. Um, not great for the Sonics in that case. But anyway, so the Mariners, like, the whole town's coming alive, and I'm just watching all this energy of, like, people becoming obsessed with the Mariners. And we had these teal "Refuse to Lose" signs all over, and I was just like, everybody was obsessed with it. And I sort of jumped on the bandwagon. And there was this game in September, I think it was I wanna say September 23rd. I think it was the 23rd. I don't know, maybe the date's wrong, but anyway, September 1995, the Mariners were playing the Angels to go on to the playoffs. It was like a wildcard game. And my mom showed up to school one day while I was in the middle of class and she pulls me out of school and she pulls out 2 tickets to this game and she's like, we're going to the game. You know, I'm like super distracted at this time. Like my parents are going through a divorce. It's a hard time, but I'm excited about the Mariners. So she pulls me out of school. I would go down to the Kingdome, which is also no longer around. And I like, this is my first baseball game. So my first baseball game is like this amazing experience of like the whole, everybody around Seattle coming together to watch this game. Sure enough, the Mariners win that day and they go on to the playoffs and like the whole stadium erupted. Bum rush the field. It was amazing. I remember my dad was actually at the game too, and I remember hearing that he had like eaten dirt off of second base, and I thought that was so awesome. So I became an obsessed fan from that day on.

Like, the stadium— is it the players? Is it your— is it the camaraderie of like the events? Like, people are like, all of us together, this like roar?

I mean, yeah, I think at the time it was just the energy around that was going on around me and watching people gravitate towards something collectively. But I also got really into just the game. Like, I thought the game was really fun and it was exciting. So I started—

I actually think baseball's so boring.

I mean, to be honest with you, like, the older I get, the less I have the attention span for— I blame social media for all of these things.

But yeah, I mean, all I spent time doing in my life was playing baseball, and now I'm just like, I can't stand it.

But you know what, baseball is actually a really smart Sport. Yeah, it's like the chess of sports. There's just— if you have to pay attention to everything going on around, around the field, like every single position is paying— like everybody has a role to play, um, you know, and you have to know things about the players going in, like this, their stats, how they bat, how, you know, how the— can the person in right field, you know, affect somebody who's up to bat. I mean, if you're paying attention, everybody's always moving around the field, you know.

And like chess— this is interesting though, so like, because the chess—

do not make me go down the chess path for too long because I'm not very good at chess.

But just an interesting thing to think about, because in other sports the same team plays every time, right? So in football or basketball, it's usually the same starting line and they're just playing the other team. But in baseball, you're almost like picking who's going to be the king this game. And there are like hierarchies of roles. Like, the pitcher is, you know, way more important than some other role because they have every single time.

Yeah.

And so there is like a king and a queen, and then you have a bunch of like the front line of people that like just have to be there to pick up the ball if it comes to them.

Totally.

But, uh, and then you have the killer hitter. Yeah, like the order.

You're right. I mean, I was always using that analogy just from like the standpoint of there's a lot of thinking that has to go on inside of baseball. And it's not just like, oh, this guy's just like throwing the ball around. And, um, but no, you're right, I never really thought to—

because there are individuals that have more power, right? Where in football, to complete a play, yeah, most of the time you need more than yourself, right? And you don't get to pick, uh, like, the— this pitcher, and now I'm gonna do a left-handed batter because it's a left-handed pitcher. And like, yeah, or however that works or whatever. I don't know, I've never thought about it like that.

But it's I mean, if you really want to get down into like, how do you make it less boring if you feel like it's boring, that's in my opinion how you can start to think about it differently.

Um, like a shot clock. Yeah, kind of shot clock for pitchers. Let's use some aluminum bats.

I mean, baseball MLB is— they're always— they're in the position of having to try to think about like, how do you make the game a little bit more fast-paced? Like, how do we keep keep up with attention spans. And especially as a younger generation comes in, uh, they, they have a lot of work to do in keeping their attention on baseball.

Let's go into this a little more. Uh, I'm really interested about this.

Okay.

One is there's so many games, right? Baseball is like 140— how many is it?

A lot. It's 162.

162 games.

Yeah.

So it's half the year, right? And I, I actually was really interested in this as a brand. The MLB is so much harder as a brand than like the NFL.

In what way?

The NFL, I feel like I— people like fantasy helped us a lot. People love watching football. They don't just love watching their team. And I feel like within MLB, it's so regionalized that like you either love the Cubs, but I never go watch like the Dodgers just for fun. Yeah, but in football, maybe it's because there's way less games or it's way easier to watch on TV because it's only like, you know, a few plays actually a game. Well, it's all about the entertainment, but the MLB feels like it's on a national level of like, I love baseball. Yeah, it's really I love the Cubs, where the NFL is like, I love football and the Bears are my team.

That's true.

Is that true?

No, I think that's absolutely true. I think, I think that's definitely true. I think there are teams inside of baseball, and you, you see this happen like, you know, you look at playoffs every year and where are the ratings at, and there's been a lot of, uh, conversation about like well, when it's been West Coast teams, like the East Coast doesn't pay attention as much. And I think there's, there's a lot that goes into this kind of stuff, but, uh, part of it is just like the entertainment value. Like, they don't— that is so distracting.

I'm Instagram Live right now while you're talking. Keep going, keep going.

You're gonna have to edit this out.

No, no, no, we're not editing out. This is Ashley in the studio today.

Hi! Um, I lost my train of thought. Anyways, uh, oh, like, you've got the Yankees, you've got the Red Sox, you do have the Cubs, and these teams have huge followings, but they're, they're marquee teams that have been in those markets since day one. Like, part of the— one of the problems I think is when you move markets too often, that creates, uh, that creates a disruption that's not really healthy for the brand of the team. And then, um, I also just think, again, back to like entertainment value, the NFL has done a really, really good job of making this about the entertainment aspect of the game. Uh, and I think MLB has done that really well, and NBA is starting to do that really well too, and I think NHL is starting to follow suit. But, um, I think that's where the missed opportunity has been. Um, but that also means that there's a lot of opportunity inside of there to create more of that. But you're— to your point, like, this— it is a lot of games. And now they're like— I mean, look at— we're gonna walk into the summer and it's— we're gonna have baseball, hockey. I mean, I guess all these things are happening all the same. I was like, hockey, baseball, basketball, all this stuff. And then at some point that ends up happening again in the fall. It's like too much stuff to keep up with.

What happened to the Sonics?

Oh my God, this is still such a wound. Like, it's not even fully—

I don't even know why. I'm in the Midwest, I'm in Illinois. Sean— is it Sean Kemp?

Well, yeah, Sean Kemp.

I was like a Sean Kemp fan, and I don't even know why. And he's a Sonics player, number 40, right?

Yes, I think he was 40.

It's weird. I don't even know.

It's been a long time, man.

What happened to them? They're in Seattle, and then they just— no one likes basketball in Seattle?

No, everyone liked basketball in Seattle. That was a business issue. I mean, it's all business. And that—

I mean Explain it. We were talking about regionalized sports team and like teams changing markets, so it just made me think of like why the Sonics changed.

Yeah, and that one was interesting because Oklahoma City has wrapped the form or something of the Thunder, or like they've brought them in with open arms. So, uh, that was— that from a business standpoint, that wasn't a bad business move necessarily because the Oklahoma City market was absolutely like wanting that.

What was the business? What was the decision? Like It's the smallest stadium in the NBA, right?

The Key Arena. Yeah, yeah.

And so was it build a new arena, we don't want the money?

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what— anytime you have a business owner in a position of wanting to turn more revenue, they will usually go towards the stadium, right? Like, stadiums are considered a really great, you know, revenue driver, right? Like, think about all the opportunities that exist inside of a stadium from the concessions to the suites to the tickets to like everything, all the retail components. So if you don't have like these days, when I go back to the entertainment value of sports, if your stadium doesn't have a great experience inside of it, well, like when your team sucks, what else is going to draw people in, right? You have to have some sort of additional entertainment value. There's actually a lifespan of like when a new stadium opens, I think it's like 10 years before it starts to wean and people don't think about it as like unless they're still winning. Unless the team is doing really well. Um, which was kind of interesting because the Sonics actually had a lot of up-and-comers like Kevin Durant and all these guys were, you know, it was— and we saw that, we saw that with the Thunder, right? They ended up being totally kick-ass. So, uh, anyways, it was really just a business move. It was like Howard Schultz wanted—

in the CEO of Starbucks, right?

Yeah. So I mean, that was like, talk about a lot of contention around the Seattle market.

Um, have you thought about how impactful are sports teams to local economies?

I mean, do you—

is there like data around this? Is— do you know about this?

I don't have the data around it, but just from— I mean, I think that they can have a ton of impact if they're successful.

I mean, I watch it in San Francisco, right? I moved here 7 years ago.

Yeah.

And I watched the Giants win 3 times. The Warriors. Yeah, I mean, in the finals. I don't think the 49ers have been anything. Maybe—

no, they were in the playoffs, but the city is like electric.

Like, yeah, it's fascinating for me to be here at this time. And totally everywhere, every bar is full, every— like, and I'm just wondering, I was just curious, like, if— can you tell the livelihood and the like state of a city based on its sports?

Oh, you absolutely can. I mean, I don't have the data on how does it affect local business, but I think you could probably make an assumption that it affects it in a very positive way, especially— no, I think you're right. I don't— well, trust me, because my wheels are spinning as we're talking about this. But, uh, that— I mean, you can just look around what's happening, especially around stadiums and, um, and bars and that kind of thing. But like, I go to Seattle— I'll just keep going back to Seattle because it's in my heart. Um, you know, you go up there now, you see what's happened with the Seahawks, like You cannot walk 5 feet without seeing somebody wearing a 12th Man something or a Seahawks something. Usually it's something to do with the 12. Like, my, my boyfriend Eric is not a sports fan. He's learning about sports through me in our relationship. But every time we go to Seattle, he's like, this, like, the sea— this is— he's like, this is like creepy how much Seahawks stuff there is everywhere. Everywhere you go, it's like plastered everywhere. So, and that's a byproduct of the team doing really well. Like, people didn't do that before. People didn't wear—

when did it turn around?

Turned around when they went to— they won the Super Bowl, or, you know, like, were in a position to go to the Super Bowl.

What was the catalyst to that? Like, what decisions led up to them winning the Super Bowl? Was it a new coach? Was it a new—

oh, Pete Carroll was a huge instrumental part of that. Yeah, Pete Carroll came in, he, you know, he brought, uh, a new way of thinking as a coach. He brought in, you know, certain kind of players. He brought a lot of camaraderie into the team, I think. I mean, they The kind of players that they brought on board were awesome. And they, you know, everything I hear about Pete Carroll just as a coach is like, he's an amazing guy and people love to play for him. But he's also no bullshit. Like, he's the definition of a good leader. Like, he will take care of you and support you and love you, but if you aren't performing or you're not getting the job done or you're like a cancer to your team and you can't turn that around, then you're out. Um, and I think that that's what's been— helped them be such a successful team.

Awesome. So take me back. You were 10 years old. I fell in love with baseball.

Yes.

And then you're getting to be a 7th grader, 6th grader in grade school.

Yep.

And then you go to high school or whatever. What kind of student were you? What are you? What—

I, uh, I was an inconsistent student.

What does that mean?

Like, I could be the smartest kid in the class when I was motivated to be, and I could— if I had too much going on in my life, I was incredibly distracted. Like, literally, I had— there were years where I had the best grade in a class, and then there was another year where I was like at the bottom of the barrel. Like, it just depended. I had a lot— like, I had a lot of stuff going on when I was a kid, so I had like probably way too much on my plate as a, as a young person, um, which was a little distracting at times. But I mean, that was—

what do you mean by that?

I mean, I just— family things, you know. My, my, my mom had me when she was super young, so she— and she was a single mother by the time I was in high school. So, you know, my brother and I were doing a lot for ourselves and had a lot of responsibility. Um, but I also like I had a lot of responsibility from a very young age. Like, I was taking care of myself and my brother and helping my mom out a lot, like, literally as soon as my parents divorced. So that—

Did you live with your mom or your dad?

I lived with my mom, and then eventually moved in with my dad, like, later into high school. But I actually, like, went to work pretty young. Like, I went to work—

What was your first job?

I was— there's a hair salon in Seattle called Jean Juarez Salon and Spa. My first job was literally to clean the salon, like cleaning up people's hair off the floor and like dispensing hair product. But I loved it because I got free hair stuff and like free haircuts and free hair color. I had every hair color you could think of back then. So I think there's always been this thing instilled in me to kind of work hard and take care of yourself and support yourself. So I was like going to school, playing sports, and I was working.

What sports did you play?

Volleyball and softball.

Nice.

Yeah, I was still playing. I like playing volleyball. I don't play— I was horrible at softball. I literally only played softball because I loved baseball so much, but I had no business. I was like the basically the cheerleader on the bench for everybody else. It wasn't good.

So then take me to where, you know, you kind of get out of that. You go to— did you go to college?

Yeah, I went to Linfield College.

Nice. And you studied—

I studied elementary education. And I'll go backwards a little bit. So during this obsession of loving baseball and eventually football, I started telling people that I wanted to be the Katie Couric of the Mariners. Like, I was also super— I love to write. That was like, it's always been very cathartic for me to to write, like, ever since I was probably 12 or so. And I got really into journalism, and I would watch Katie Couric on the Today Show, and I love, you know, I just thought she was great. So I would tell people I want to be the Katie Couric of the Mariners, and they'd, like, think that was cute, and then they would just tell me—

How old were you?

I was probably, like, 11, 12, 13, in that range. And they would, the message they would tell me was, that isn't, like, that's not a job that either exists or a job that there's like a lot of opportunity. Like, it's all about who you know. Or, you know, it was never like, you should go do that, you should pursue that. Like, let's— you know, this is the path to doing that, go to sports journalism school or something. Like, the message instead that I was being told was that that was just too hard to get into, um, and I should find a job.

Like, who was telling you this?

Like, who were the people that This is how I feel about calling them out.

No, no, I don't— I think it's a— it's not a problem. It's people actually, they, they're like trying to protect you, right?

No, they absolutely were. They were like, we want to make sure that she has like a job. And but it was— I don't think they meant to be so gender stereo— like gender stereotyping me so much because the things that they were saying were like, well, you go be a teacher or a nurse. And I was like, yeah, and it makes sense, right?

Like maybe those were gender, but I think like the the TV host, the musician. I mean, my dad was like, do not be a musician, that is not a career.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm going to go play weddings and make more money than I do making this stupid job. And it's like spite drove all decisions.

Oh, totally. Um, so anyways, I, I ended up going to school to become a teacher. I— the reason I went to Linfield, because they had a great education program. While I was there, they had this elective course. It was like the first time they they ever introduced. It was called the, uh, History of Baseball, and it was like the coolest class ever. We did every— we learned about baseball, the economics of baseball, the business side, like, and our, our final project was to, uh, build a baseball team, an MLB team, in a market that doesn't have the MLB from the ground up.

So what's the key to the market?

You mean you have to Well, you mean the key to like picking a market?

Yeah, is it, is it like what makes it? This is like the economics piece of like, yeah, size. Is it how many other teams exist?

Exactly. So you are looking at things like what's the market size just in terms of people there. You want to find comparable markets that already exist and find like replicable, replicable models, um, uh, that you can sort of say like, okay, if this market this sort of mirrored to that market, that makes a lot of sense. What is the growth looking like for that market? So, I mean, we actually chose Las Vegas at the time. It was like 2007, I wanna say. And at the time, this was before the recession hit, Vegas was like the booming market in the United States. So it was like the fastest growing market and people were flooding to Vegas and it looked like it was gonna be, be like the future, like, I don't know, something Portland or something. Maybe that's not a good example. But, um, uh, anyways, so we, we were looking at that data. I called the mayor's office, I talked to the mayor. Like, we went, we went like super deep on all of this information. And, and it's been 10 years now, so I don't remember all of it. But, um, it just— there was a lot of things made sense. But one of the issues that exists when you like want to build a new team um, is stadium. Like, does it— is it publicly funded? Is it privately funded? And, um, that was always— that's been an issue for a long time, and we're watching this happen.

This is a huge thing.

It's a huge deal. I mean, what—

because cities are getting— are fronting the bills mostly, right?

Most of the time, yeah. And it's not like—

and the NFL has just been raking in the cash.

All of them are. All of the leagues. I mean, this isn't just an NFL thing.

This is NBA, the real thing. It's that the city's taxpayer dollars fund the stadium, and then the— for years, claims are like, like, you know, we're bringing a lot of economic value.

Yeah. And they— I mean, there, there could be, there could be truth to that, but again, there's a lot of— like, the team needs to be good too, right? You know, you're gonna sell out a really nice fancy stadium, uh, for a little bit But the other side of it is like, there was a period of time there weren't new stadiums popping up all the time, but now we're seeing this more and more. And it's like, the more technology continues to advance and things become super innovative, it's like a stadium that was cool a year ago isn't even— it like has a lot of pressure to continue to stay super innovative. Like the Kings just, they just opened up a new stadium.

Yeah, like the most innovative stadium.

Yeah, but then Dallas just had, you know, a bunch of change stuff. And like, nobody really talks about that stadium except for maybe in Dallas. Like, it's hard to keep that momentum going these days because every time a new stadium opens, like, the next wave of big innovative stuff is happening. Whereas in like 19— I guess it was 1999 that the Mariners opened Safeco. And like, Safeco was super cool for a long time. And then the Giants opened their stadium, it was super cool for a long time. But now, like, you go into the stadiums and they're still really beautiful, but the technology isn't quite as on par with like what the Kings are doing or Dallas or some of these other new stadiums. So, um, anyways, back to that pro— that, uh, program. So that project, um, anyways, we had to like build this stadium. It was awesome. We— I remember we were called, uh, we had it funded by Steve Wynn. He was our financial backer for the stadium, and we called it Wynn Field. Which I don't know if you guys caught it, but I went to Lynn Field. So it was like, uh, we were the Las Vegas Aces. Like, I don't know, it was awesome. We did not win. Indianapolis won. But I actually was just talking to that professor recently because Vegas just got an NHL team, and now there's all this talk about Oakland teams moving to Vegas. I'm like, hmm, I haven't seen any teams go to Indianapolis, so maybe we should have, uh, got the hockey in the middle of the desert.

Is such a funny—

it is very weird. Um, So after that class, I was like, shit, I really fucked up. Like, I should not have become a teacher. I—

all this one class was—

you were like, this one class? I would— I regretted everything. I was like, what have I done? Like, I love kids.

I'm like, where were you?

It was my senior year. I was getting ready to graduate. It was like bad time to figure out.

So what did you do?

Well, this is where serendipity comes in, and I'm such a believer in like things sort of line up kind of the way they're supposed to if you're putting yourself on the right path. Um, a friend of mine reached out and he was like, hey, he knew I was a diehard Mariners fan. Um, he's like, I have a friend who is hiring for this entry-level coordinator position with the Mariners radio broadcast. He's like, here's the job description. Of course, I like typical, like now looking back, I'm like, oh, like, if I could just be like, go back to my younger self and not think this way. But I was like looking at the job description, I'm like, I haven't had this experience and that. And it actually was my mom who was like, you need to look at these, these things listed on the job description and think about how the things you've done as a teacher— because I had done like, uh, I taught like first graders as part of my exit out of my degree. She's like, think about how the things you've done as a teacher apply to this job. And when I did, like, when, you know, I thought it from that perspective, I was like, okay, perfect. So I end up, I interview with the job, I don't get it. They're like, they're like, you know, we look, we think you're great, but we're gonna take this girl who has a background, just got out of school for sports management. And I was like, oh darn it. Oh, sorry, I'm not supposed to hit the table. Anyways, so I was disappointed, but I, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go teach. I taught preschool, um, for a year, but I did not give up on that like dream to go work for them. So I just, I just stayed in touch with people. I emailed them. I was like, I still would love an opportunity if one pops up. This girl that I interviewed with, she left, went to a different radio station. Um, long story short, I ended up meeting her boss at this new radio station, uh, they had an entry-level position not for like the Mariners or, or anything like that, but it was just this other radio station in the market. But the parent company of this radio station, um, had— they had a news talk station within the parent company, and the news talk station had the broadcast rights to the Seahawks. So I was like, okay, there's a sports like connection to this company. I'm just gonna get in I'm gonna like do whatever work I have to do to like prove myself, and I'm gonna figure out a way to get a job in sports through the other station. So when I interviewed, like, you know, maybe it was naive, but I was very honest. I was like, I'm— his name is Dave Pridemore. I, I like interviewed with Dave, and he's like, so what do you want to do with your career? And I was like, Dave, I want to work in sports. I was like, I, I interviewed for this job with with KOMO. I didn't get it, but I really wanted— KOMO is the new station that had the broadcast rights to the Mariners originally. So I was like, I want, I want this job. And he's like, okay, great, like, that's awesome. So I, I get the job for this— it was an oldie station at the time. I can't remember how long I've been working there. I want to say like 2 months. And one day, um, that we have this big all-hands meeting and they tell us that The News Talk Station is, uh, um, Cairo is— was going to be the new rights holder for the Mariners broadcast. So KOMO, the place that I didn't get a job at, they lost the rights to the Mariners broadcast and, and Cairo ended up getting them. And I was like, oh my God. And then Dave was like, if— he's like, so we will be building a staff for the Mariners broadcast. If anybody's interested, please come and talk to me. Of course, I was like, ah, I've been there like 2 months, like I was still learning. Um, but I went into his office, I was like, Dave, I told you that I wanted to work for sports and specifically the Mariners. Like, I want a job, I don't care, I, I don't care what I have to do, I'll learn whatever I have to do, but I really want to work for, for this team. He was like, all right, let's talk, you know, let's keep the conversation open. Anyways, I continue to pursue it and He finally brings me in one day and he's like, listen, Ashley, I, I knew about us getting the rights when you were interviewing, and I've always kind of had you in mind for this job. So you will be, uh, coming on as our Mariners radio coordinator. And I was like, what? Like, what? That's so— I mean, it was like the most surreal thing, right? Like, talk about—

you still talk today?

Um, occasionally when I'm in Seattle. Like, I, I just reached out to them to him when I launched the relish, and I was like, there's so many amazing lessons in this though.

Like, one, not taking no for an answer.

Yeah.

Two, going in the back door.

Yep.

Like, actually planning, like, I'm gonna end up with the Mariners however I get there.

Yeah.

And then—

but not in like a shade— like, some people will take a back door like in a shady way, and there was— it wasn't that, it was just persistence. Like, I believe— I remember I was also nannying at the time.

Honesty. Yeah, people undervalue— like, people are afraid to say so important. Like, radical honesty is actually like the key to sales, but people think it's like selling things.

Yes.

And like, actually the way to win is to sell what you don't know, or to be so honest with the things that, like, you know, you called it, like, I don't actually want to work here, I want to work there.

Yeah.

But that— can you believe that connection? No, it totally— that's how it works.

Yeah, right.

Like, people go in selling AI and artificial intelligence, and we go in selling like everything we don't know. Yeah. And there's a lot of studies on this now. Adam Grant wrote a book called The Originals, and a lot of it is about if you're very radically honest, people then trust you. And then when they trust you, they're able to now believe what you say next.

Yeah.

And so there's a story of this person who went in and pitched a VC firm, and it's actually the way I've always done it. Like, I was with Robert at this meeting. He's like, this is what you do. And like, I would— you walk in and you're like, I'm going to tell you everything that's wrong. And then what happens is two things. One is they do trust you because everyone else is selling them smoke. And two is you end the meeting on a high because you're not ending the meeting where they're digging into all the questions where you know that they're going to ask and you don't have the answers.

Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely true. I, I can be honest to a fault, which I think is a good thing. You know, I've— I know of some people who have done some investing— I'm sorry, some fundraising, and I've learned about the thing, the dishonest things that they say to close the deal. And it's Like, literally, I'm like, oh, this is pretty much fraud. Like, this is— like, these people are investing in something that, like, if you actually dug deeper or discovered a few things, like, it's complete bullshit. And, like, when we've been raising the relish, like, we have been really honest with people about where we're at, where we're headed, where we think our struggles will be, where we think we're going to be able to absolutely execute and do great shit. I like am pitching this to people that I'm meeting for the first time or just establishing a relationship with, but like I do think that that honesty and that realness can be felt. And I mean, these are relationships that are going to carry with you for a long time. And if you ever want to raise money again, like I would hope that you are thinking about these kinds of things because like—

The world is so small.

Eventually, yeah, the world is small. And eventually those things all come back to you like that. You can get yourself through one round by lying or making shit up or using people, but eventually those things all come back around to bite you.

And so now we got the first— it's your first time being a CEO.

Yeah.

And you're, you're here and you have The Relish. It's a sports media company for female fans, correct?

Yeah.

So, and you've just raised money from some of the big best investors in Silicon Valley.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Now don't lose it all.

I'm— we're not— we're— we are, uh, I call it— I— we, we go by the motto, we're classy but scrappy.

Love it. Like, take me back, take me back to the beginning. I obviously— it's almost like, do you feel like you found your life's work?

Yes. I was getting so bored in my career. I was like— and you've— we've talked about this, we've talked about this since like way before either of us ever moved to San Francisco. Like, because Shane and I have been friends since Seattle days.

Like, we've known each other 2008.

Yeah. We were babies. Um, but anyways, I, I've always kind of said like, always been like, this sounds so trite and cliché, but like an idea person, right? Like I'm always like, what if that this— like literally at one point I wanted to open a dog park bar.

And genius.

I, it's— I still would like to listen right now. I know you guys will invest. Seriously, let me know. I don't have any money to invest because I put it all in the relish, but I will, I will support your bar.

You have the plans.

Henry and I will be there. Um, anyways, but like, you know, I could like see an— I could see an empty parking lot and be like, that's perfect. Like, you know, it's not my brain.

Beer gardens are genius, but they're like no infrastructure. People love to be outside. Yeah, and dogs are awesome.

Totally. Any heat lamps and like those string lights and people are happy.

Take me to the— get yourself to the Rausch.

So I, uh, I forgot what was the last thing you were saying.

You're always the idea person.

Oh yeah, so, oh, so I'm like, I knew I wanted to start my own company at some point, but That's like, that's what I would say. I was like, I want to start my own company. I don't know what it is yet. Maybe it's a dog park bar. And then literally I was taking a shower one day and it's always in the shower. I have a lot of good ideas. I remember Eric, I've mentioned Eric, my boyfriend. He, he had heard this idea that like if you're looking for that, that thing, whatever that thing is, just write it. Keep writing stuff down, like write ideas down, write out just a long list of stuff. And when you get to a point where something sparks emotion in you, whether it's like you're so giddy you can't stand it, or you cry, or whatever, that's when you've got your idea. And that is what happened to me in the shower. Like, this idea for the relish popped into my head, which I actually, when looking back, like, I actually had the idea 6 years prior, but wasn't thinking that I would do the company. It actually presented to Brian Sugar of PopSugar, interestingly enough. But I'm in the shower and I'm like, oh my god, this is the idea, like, this is the thing. And I started crying and I was like, I think he's right, like, I think he's on to something. So anyways, I just was like, not to sound so emo, but like when I thought about like the how big and important something like this could be and like what it could mean for a huge group of misrepresented people, that's when I kind of started to cry a little. I was like, oh man, like, and no one's doing this. Like, this needs to happen.

Break down that emotion. And you're saying misrepresent— like, female fans that love sports, men and women's sports, doesn't matter.

Female fans who have no voice, who love, like, or are interested in, in knowing more about sports. Like, the problem right now in the market is that people look at a female fan and the industry looks at a female fan and they just try to put them into one bucket, the female fan bucket, right? But you can't— that's not, that's not representative of a female fan. A female fan has a lot more complexity than that. Like, I am different than another kind of female fan, right? So there's, there's different layers to female fans and So far the industry has mostly just gender stereotyped a female fan or, you know, this like this pink it and shrink it marketing strategy or just had like we have all these masculine sites that just sort of have like an offshoot brand for a female fan and it never really works. And what we've seen in media with all of these like niche female women's lifestyle media companies kind of popping up, look at what like Brit Co has done and Refinery29 and The Skimm is awesome. These amazing female-driven media companies who are doing awesome things, who are empowering women, who are giving women a platform to use their voice and allow themselves to be expressed in all the different ways women like to express themselves, but nobody was doing that for female fans. So that's the market opportunity we're grabbing a hold of.

That's amazing. And when you think about— and you— Females probably hold the spending power.

Uh, 70 to 80% of sports betting comes from women, not men.

That's crazy. It's almost sad to me. Like, I think about all of the ESPN shows, and when I see like the NFL, and it's like, it, it's like 6 huge guys talking about all those things. And when they throw a female in there, it's like just one.

It's one, and it's like the stereotypical like pretty girl, right? Which is nothing wrong with that, but like, it's not representative, you know. They're like, oh, let's just check that bucket. It's not representative of the diverse amount of like women that exist inside of the female fan base. And that's something that's really important to us too. Like, you know, it's not— you're not just gonna see the token white girl, right? Or the token pretty, pretty girl. We're gonna show the full range of female fans and, and who we are and what we represent.

And if you think of yourself, do you think— do you think of yourself as like a new media company? Yeah, and in that vein, you have like the Chetters doing online video on Twitter, or, you know, it's crazy to me, like when you said I want to be the Katie Couric of the Mariners, like you can right now. Yeah, you're doing— like, this is essentially it. Yeah, new distribution platforms, new live video, new content mediums. Like, there is no gate except you're willing to do it. Yeah, but people will be like, no, until you are the Katie Couric of the Mariners, and then you'll be like, now you're gonna be the Katie Couric of sports.

Yeah.

Do you feel like it's that— do you feel that is the mission behind you?

I don't think that I at this point am— so I'm not—

you can enable that.

You can be the person, the talent at this point. Like, I'm interested in being the, the leader of the company that allows the, the woman who today is saying, I want to be the Katie Couric, or whoever, right?

Like, of every sports, you're the enabler to say, no, you can be the Katie Yeah, I mean, we have women— Get a mic and a great camera and be interesting.

Totally. You can't imagine the amount of women coming to us, like, wanting an opportunity. Because inside of the sports world, there's opportunities, but you have to conform to something else. Or, you know, like, I always— I say oftentimes one of the things we see happen a lot is women who want to get into the world of sports, they end up kind of having to emulate a man. Which is just— and they have to work 10 times harder to— like, the ceiling for a woman in sports is like absurd. It's just absurd. I mean, and this is a big part of our, our mission at The Relish is to give women that who work in sports a voice as well and an ability to, to be seen and to be heard and, and to have additional opportunities and to, you know, break those ceilings because There's some— yeah, I mean, we know this is a problem across many industries and verticals, but, um, I mean, it feels so relevant in today's climate. It totally is.

It's almost motivating.

It's so motivating.

I mean, like, I find just giving a shit about diversity into what's happening in the world today. Yeah, just almost like I, I'm like very optimistically driven right now in a weird way of this. Like, fuck it, I have a little company that I can like try my hardest to care about what I think is right.

I mean, we're so lucky to— you and I are so privileged to be here, right? Like, for sure, this is— to be in San Francisco.

I mean, me, me, I'm a white dude.

Yeah. And like, a white woman is right, like, right in line, right? Like, we're, we're very lucky to be able to be in the position we are to do these kinds of things. And like, that is something neither one of us should ever, ever take for granted because, for sure, I mean, but it you also need people who have that kind of— like, if you have the privilege, do something positive with it, right? Like, turn that into an opportunity to give other people who are marginalized or don't have the same privilege or same access an ability to acquire that.

Cool. Take me back a little bit. So you're just starting this.

Yeah.

First, first time through with the raising money, getting some venture, uh, a female sitting down in VC, like all these things, and Like, where is the company now? Like, you know, what are you, what are you like thinking about day to day? What are you insecure about? What do you like, you know, how are you feeling right now?

I mean, I feel so many things. I feel overwhelmed, but also to— you said the word motivated. I have never felt more motivated ever. There's a little bit of surrealness still. When our first check hit the bank and I saw it went from literally $0, because I was funneling everything for The Wellish out of my own bank account. So when the company bank account had money in it, I was like, what?

Holy shit, there's money in there.

We can get an office.

Fundraising's so weird. I'm not really a person driven by money that much. And so I don't even really look at our bank. Our CFO is like, here's where we're at. And we think about it.

Oh, well, you can afford a CFO. Good for you. No, she's a contract.

But I remember like just hitting refresh on like wires are so weird. Oh God. Oh God. I mean, it was like one, and then once you get it, you're like, fuck, no, no, lose it. Like, I don't want to like— then they're like, stress changes.

I mean, I'm such a— I'm like the creep that's like looking at the bank account every day, and I'm like, I'm like goo— like Google searching what the little description is if I can't tell what it is. I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, it was the That thing that we had to buy. No, it's very surreal. It's totally surreal. I'm so grateful to have gotten this far. I think this round is one of the harder, if not the hardest, probably to raise this very early round, or at least that's what people tell me. It's definitely— I mean, this is a crazy climate to try to raise into any venture.

Explain. How was it? How long did it take?

It took, I mean, for the point, from the point we got really serious, it's been somewhere between like 9 and 10 months.

Wow.

And we, there was a pause in between. We kind of took a break and just focused on, on growing a little bit more. Um, but yeah, I mean, it took a long time. And part of that too, like, it's media. Media is not a something, like, an investor hears the word media and we hear more often than not, like, I don't do media. And then they hear the idea and they're like, well, tell me more about that. That's interesting. But part of the reason is it's like media can be, you know, pretty high risk and it doesn't— it's not typically a billion-dollar return, right? Like, we're not— the likelihood of us being the next Snapchat is not necessarily real. So I think people hear those words and they're like, ah, I don't know, media. But then they hear like, oh wait, they've unearthed a huge market that isn't no one's really doing anything with. I mean, that's when we get people to really—

if you think about it as like, one, new media platforms. Two, can you be the largest sports media company in the world? And three, have the most engaged fans, right?

I mean, engagement's huge. These vanity metrics of like users and all that, I mean, certainly you want a high volume of users because there's a lot that can be done there. But when you're— if you're in the very beginning, if content is the thing you're, you're attributing your monetization towards, which at least phase 1 for us is that, um, you— your audience means nothing if they're not engaged. And we're really lucky to have a highly, highly engaged audience even while we're relatively small comparatively. Um, and I think that's— for me, that's the thing that makes me feel really confident about what we're doing. It's like That's what we want to see, and that's part of our goal, is to empower more of that kind of engagement.

Um, what does relatively small mean?

Meaning we don't have like ESPN numbers or Bleacher Report numbers, but we're definitely— we're growing. I mean, yeah, yeah, we have— well, we didn't share all the metrics to all of these people, but I mean, our investors absolutely know what our numbers are.

Cool.

Um, And, you know, we'll have some press coming out about where we're at in the next quarter or so.

But ESPN— so take me there— they've been falling for years, right? They're on the down.

They're on the down. Yeah.

Do you see yourself like almost as a channel? Like, the Relish is like ESPN, and then you'll have all these TV shows who are more individuals than shows.

I mean, I just don't—

as like a true—

it depends. Yeah, I mean, I— so yes, we have shows that we're working on right now. So video content is a huge play for us, and we're actively working on our original stuff. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it's just a more a matter of where you distribute that, those shows to, and how you think about the distribution model and the future of where, where do we believe the consumer will be. Um, one of the things that I think is awesome about being in San Francisco, uh, and there's actually a few of us new media companies bubbling up around here, right? Like The Hustle, The Athletic, The Information, and we all think very similarly in terms of just how do you, how do you create new media for the future, not just for replicating what's already been done or what's happening today. And so when we're thinking about the future of The Relish, we're absolutely thinking about what is the long-term play, like where, where is the consumer headed and how they want to consume media and how we, we approach that.

Totally. I mean, it's— I'm like so fascinated by this because people don't see it. Uh, like the amount of money brands waste on TV is sickening.

Yeah.

And the last time this happened was radio to TV, right? And a bunch of radio hosts were like, TV's too hard, it's not gonna be a thing, and radio is much bigger, and like lost all their jobs.

Yeah.

And now it's like, it's just attention, and everyone's here staring at their phone. And even when they're watching TV, they're not watching their— the TV, they're watching their phone.

Yeah.

And so it's like, it's— and you know that then the podcasting is coming back. It's crazy, like 10 years ago podcasting was a thing and then it kind of went away, and then the platforms now are so big that like from podcasting, from video, from live video, from each social— I mean, social networks are the internet.

Yeah.

And the internet's bigger than TV. So I don't know, I'm curious on what are your thoughts on like, is it about a platform or is it about the content?

It's about— I think it's about both.

Yeah.

I don't think you can have— those aren't mutually exclusive to each other. Like You have to be thinking about putting really quality content out there, and you have to be thinking about the platforms in which each of those things exist. And you can't think about them all the same. Like, what you do for a podcast, what you do for a video, what you do for Facebook versus Instagram versus your own site, if you're— if you've chosen to have a site, destination site, um, those things all have to be different. They all have to be specific to that different kind of platform. And if you're not thinking about that, then— and thinking about in that way, then there's no way to win with the way people consume now.

Yeah. So you as a CEO, it's first time, and first time founding a company with venture, with money. How do you find inspiration and the confidence to go do this? Like Where did it come from? Like, does it go back to your past?

Yeah.

Who is the one who you go seek, or is it internal that'd be like, I can do this?

There, I think truthfully it's, it's internal, but it was developed. Like, I had to develop this myself. I didn't have— I've always had like the drive to want to be successful and to want to own my own life and to have Like, I've always been a dreamer. There's— I would say a lot of things that, like, I've looked like, what are the qualities of someone who should be an entrepreneur? And I'm like, yeah, those things, I could check those boxes. But it feels really cliché to say this stuff, but like, I don't like— divorce had a planet, the divorce of my parents. I mean, I'm— I think, yeah, actually I know it did, because at the time as a kid, I like, I, I didn't like my life as a kid. Like, I didn't like my childhood. I wanted It just— there was, there were, there was so much struggle at such a young age. And I, I remember just thinking like, I can't wait. This is, it's gonna sound kind of sad, and don't worry, it's all worked out. So nobody should feel bad or anything. But like, I remember just thinking like, I want to grow up so I can, I can own my own destiny in life. And like, I can be in charge of me and, and just, you know, where I take my life. And from whatever that was, right? Like, to the kind of job that I might have or a vacation I might go on or whatever that thing was. And I would, I would just like, my mom would put us in the car a lot and we'd just drive around or go places and I just stare out the window listening to music, like daydreaming about what that future might look like. And I've all, I'm still that way. Like, I'm totally that way. I like make vision boards. I do all these things, right? Like I You know, I, I am a believer in like this idea of like whatever it is you're dreaming, you spend time thinking about it and then you, you do, right? You actively move towards that. So I think the confidence component, um, that was something that I, I developed myself. Like I, I just eventually learned like the more belief you have in yourself and the more you, you actively work on that, the more that plays out. Um, you know, I think insecurity and things of that nature are real for everybody. I think it manifests itself differently for every single person. I certainly have, like, have had parts of this process where I've had moments of insecurity or doubted myself or wondered, like, am I really the person who should be doing this? And then I take a minute to pause and reflect. I'm like, hell yeah, I'm the person to be doing this. Like, fuck that. Like, of course I can do this.

What is the emotion you feel when someone says, listen, you're not Katie Couric of the Mariners, that doesn't exist, and you shouldn't go that path?

When I think about that now, it makes me mad. It makes me mad that that was the message I was being told. But I, you know, I, I can look back and like understand where that thought process was coming from and that it wasn't like a bad intention. Um, but I also think that's why things like, like the women's movements we're seeing today are so important, right? Like, we need to be making sure that those aren't the messages we're sending young girls and boys. And like, the messages we're sending kids at a young age on, you know, both genders and everything in between the two genders needs to be like, you know, words of encouragement and, and and giving these kids sort of like an access point to like whatever it is that they're saying their dreams are, like help them kind of see those, like the path to that. That's another thing too, like it, I feel like college and all, I mean, we all, college is just so important and education is important.

Learning is important.

Learning, yeah.

College is perceived as the reason.

Yeah, no, like the educational component is so important. But we just go through this like we just check boxes. We don't actually show people the path to the things that they're good at or that inspire them or that matter to them. We don't even ask them. No, we really don't.

So it's fast. I'm teaching a class.

We tell, but we don't ask.

At Georgetown right now.

Oh, you are?

And we've been doing it for like 4 years. And for first it was teaching entrepreneurship. And then after 3 years, 2 kids out of 450 started anything.

Are you serious?

Entrepreneurship is down across the board. No one's actually starting. So we were like, what? We're not serving anyone. Like, we're not— we don't have a purpose here. And then I had this random idea about a year ago, and I was like, you know, I wrote a book. And I remember when I wrote a book, everyone's like, you're not an author. Like, why should you write a book?

I remember your book, right?

And it's the same thing as like being Katie Couric of for the Mariners. People are like, you're not an author. The same thing when I was in music when I was in high school. People like, you're not a musician. And then 8 years later you're playing a big show and they're like, I wish I was a musician. I'm like, remember when you said it was stupid? And, um, but it was, it was— I was looking at these kids and these seniors in college at Georgetown, top school, and I'm like, they don't want to be entrepreneurs right now. They want to be entrepreneurial-minded. They want to look at companies that are entrepreneurial-minded. And so we were like but they all believe that they can't get the job they want. And I was like, what is the highest perceived signal in the world? And I was like, book is high. If you have enough time and resources and you can write an entire book, yeah, write 40,000 words, then like people are like, damn, like that's impressive, right? So I emailed the guy I teach a class with. Uh, he does it like I fly out there, but he's like mostly the one who teaches it all. And I was like, we should make them all write books, and we should ask them what's their purpose and what's their dream. And we asked them, who since their life— they're a senior in college, they're getting done with school in 21 years— has ever asked you what your dream is? And none of them raised their hand.

Huh. So we were like, well, but people probably ask them, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Exactly.

But that's so different than what's like your dream. That's not—

and they didn't even think about it. And so I was like And none of them have ever written more than 2,000 words ever, right? Term papers, whatever.

It's just—

and so last August I was like, we should do this. And so I told Eric, he's like, this is crazy. We redo the syllabus in 3 days and 32 students are in the class.

Yeah.

And he was gonna quit teaching because he was like, well, I'm not even making a difference. Like, no one's becoming entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship program is like broken. And we decided to ask them what their purpose is and how we could help them demonstrate it. And so the one student was like, I just want to work at Under Armour, and he's like in sports marketing. And so we—

did he get a job? Because I'd love to talk to him a lot.

So a lot of them actually are in sports. And what we did is we did this process. We're like, find your purpose, which is almost like finding your company.

Yeah.

And then interview all the best people in it. If you're going to feature them in a book, it teaches you how to do outreach and how to hustle to get people. Yeah. Like, uh, Kevin Rose's wife, uh, who— the summer tomato, uh, Dara Rose, I believe. Like, this lady from Georgetown, like, reached out to her, and she's like, yeah, I'd love to be in your book. And then they interview all the people, and then they packaged them all up, and then I got a publisher to donate like half a million dollars to publish them all.

Oh my gosh.

And last December, 32 out of 32 finished manuscripts. That's over 20,000 words each.

Wow.

And no one believed they could write it. Yeah, no one believed they could do it. And it's this problem. Now I'm on like a rant, but it's like, my point is that like the purpose thing, no one ever does, right? And then all of a sudden the student gets a job at Under Armour because he wrote the book on how augmented reality is going to change sports.

Oh my God, that's awesome. And it's like, and he's right.

Yeah, like if I have glasses on that I can see fake defenders and how I shoot, and I can— it's like I can get better and train or whatever. Like, yeah, he's gonna get a job. Then the other lady, Maren, just wrote a book called The, the The—

what's her last name?

Cannon.

Oh, okay.

The Glass Sky. And it's how women can break through the outdoor industry.

That's awesome.

And all these things have— and now I'm seeing their book covers come through and I'm like, holy shit.

Wow.

And what we're realizing is that what— it's not about the book. What we did is signal— in the past is something that was created in like 1972 or '73 by like Michael Spence, signaling theory. It's why people will get careers. And it was all based on you borrow signal. So you borrow signal from institutions and companies. That's why you go to Stanford. You get a job because of Stanford, not because of, yeah, uh, what you learned at Stanford, right? You get a— you get another job because you worked at, um, McKinsey, because it has high signal, right? That gets you your next job. And what we realized is that you spend your life borrowing signal. That signal you borrowed can go down. If you worked at Enron before Enron crashed, you got signal and then it died.

Yeah.

So we're like, signal now is about how do you create for yourself.

Yeah.

And give yourself purpose, and then how do you demonstrate that signal? And all of a sudden we started analyzing these students from their signal score based on purpose and demonstration.

Yeah.

Before the book and after the book.

Wow.

And all of the students went up.

Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

And so it gave them the sense of like, I know, like, Marin's like, I can't believe in under 6 months I feel like my life's changed and I know I'm gonna go get a whole new career.

Yeah.

And this is like, now we're doing it again this semester, and it's like, it's crazy.

We need to replicate this, A, at younger ages, and B, at places where kids don't have that kind of access.

Exactly. That's, that's our next step.

Signal for people, for everyone, right?

And it's really just about believing in yourself.

Yeah, no, it absolutely is.

But watching everyone, no one believed that they would write books. And now that they've all written, I literally every day I get a new book cover.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, holy shit, that's amazing.

Awesome.

But for you to create 100 Katie Courics, yeah, like that's your opportunity.

I mean, that would— so yeah, that's part—

sorry, that was a long-winded story.

Don't worry, we've got some strategies in place. But when you said that, I was like, yeah, yeah, that's part of the plan.

Um, but I think it's like, why Helping people find what you found in the shower and then the confidence to believe that they're the one to do it. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And it wasn't about like, it wasn't about get a, get a, be like a self-promoting person and be an entrepreneur. Half of them were like, I just want like a one job here with this company because I love that industry. Yeah, and I think that's the problem, like 7 years ago, people were like, personal branding. Yeah, the problem with personal branding is it's about the personal branding. It's that for that sake, and it's just bullshit.

I know some CEOs who literally just— that is all they do. They just work on their— I'm like, when are you gonna talk about your company?

Exactly.

And I'm like, well, but like, personal brand matters to a point. Like, if you don't— like, you should be paying attention to what you're putting out there to a degree, but like What the brand I'm building is the relish. Like, yeah, my personal brand is, is whatever it is, but like, that's not the thing I'm focused on. Like, the relish is the thing that matters the most.

But like, the reason personal branding is complete horseshit is because it's for— people do it for the personal brand, right? But there's no depth.

Exactly.

So what we really found is that you have to go deep.

Yeah.

And the deeper you go, to be able to write a book, you have to go deep.

Yeah. Yeah.

So the catalyst of the book is fascinating, but there's a lot of different ways to do that. And yeah, I think— I don't know, no one's— that no one ever like just sat these kids down and asked them what they dreamed of doing.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And then now they're all like completely changed their entire outlook on what they're going to do in their life. And to be really like, the parents now believe more than they do because they didn't believe that they would ever write a book. Yeah, it's kind of a crazy story. Anyways, long story.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's great. It's just like, I want— but let's replicate that for kids. Like, I'm, I'm such a believer that there's there's so many things that could be fixed or made better or just changed if we started doing this stuff earlier.

Yeah. And why do people tell people no when it's about a career of something they don't understand? I think it's just protective. Like, my father was like, don't be a musician, you know? He's like, you gotta go.

It is protected because they don't want— they don't want to see you fail. Like, they don't want to— and they don't want to see— like, they can see all the the stumbling blocks and walls and potential barriers to entry. And they, like, it's a parent's natural instinct to protect, right? And so like their intention is probably not to be like, you can't do that, or make you feel bad. But like, ultimately that's really damaging. Like it, because the things that you, you're, the people that love you most are telling you are like the thing you listen to, right? Like parents have so much so much power.

And what do your friends and family say to you now?

Oh, there's— I mean, they're so proud, which is like awesome. I mean, yeah, it's great. Yeah, listen, don't— I'm making it sound like my family has never been supportive. No, no, they've over— they've been overwhelming supportive of me my whole, like, my whole life. There's, except for this like one person that said this thing that stuck with me, right? Because it was the thing that mattered to me most at the time. The other— there was another thing I like— I used to— I also taught myself HTML code when I was like 12, and I so regret—

that's amazing—

not doing anything with that. Like, it's no— it was no— it was no— like, not anyone's fault or anything, but I wish that somebody had been like, Ashley, this can be really valuable for you someday. And I, you know, I never ended up actually doing anything with that later, but I wish that I had stuck with that too. Like, Imagine if I could have been like an engineer and a Katie Kirk of the Mariners, like combined into one. I can really do some crazy stuff.

Well, I mean, or you would have not played to your strengths and be where you're at. You never know.

Yeah, who knows? I don't know. I'm happy with the way things are turning out now. So I think that, uh, I would— I was lucky to have, you know, some resources in place to kind of help guide me in the right direction, for sure.

So what's your dream for this?

My dream is that we— I hope that we get to a place where we don't have to call this for female fans. Yeah, where a female fan is just considered equal to any, any other male fan, which is just not the way that it is right now. My dream is that when somebody says female fan, they think the Relish, and vice versa. They, they know that this is a brand that is for this hugely underserved market, but eventually we're the brand that has allowed there to be an equal playing field.

Feels like—

no pun intended—

it feels like it's much bigger than sports.

It is. This is about a movement. This is not just about creating, you know, a media company. Like, that's— a media company is what we are today. This is The future of what we're trying to build is so much more than that.

Did you participate in all the women's marches and stuff?

Well, I participated in the San Francisco march. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, it's not called—

it's hard to be in all of the marches at one time.

Oh, sorry.

But yeah, I was at the San Francisco one.

And what do you feel in the movement happening right now?

I mean, I think there's a lot— there's—

it's a very kind of tied it in a way, like it all underlies like your mission, right?

Yeah. I mean, the timing for this is interesting, right? It's is kind of perfect, honestly. Like, the fact that we're kind of having this— there's this term called fourth wave of feminism, like this next wave of what feminism looks like. And I think that the timing to be talking about something that is for women is really important. But yeah, I mean, the Women's March, it matters. Is so important. Like, so there's, there's power in solidarity. There's power in a lot of people coming together to rally around an idea. It's also forcing us to like think about all the other parts of this, right? Like, there's, there was, there's some controversy that exists inside of the marches and inside of like, you know, like there was a lot of talk about how taking the day off yesterday for Women's International or International Women's Day is actually kind of a privilege if you, if you can do that and know that you're gonna come to a job the next day, right? So like, there's a lot of layers to all of this, and you know, it's something that you just have to be really mindful of, all the different components to— yeah, what this is.

What are— what were the first three— the first three pillars of feminism? Like, if it's the fourth wave— oh, you don't know? That's just what they're calling it. They're like, yeah, fourth wave.

Yeah, yeah.

Cool. Did you see the movie movie Hidden Figures?

I haven't seen it. Oh my gosh, I do. You want to know why I haven't seen it?

Why?

We got— I have this really bad problem. This is a very weird flaw. When I buy tickets on like Fandango, or like we go to Alamo Drafthouse a lot, um, for some reason when I buy tickets online, I can always buy them for the wrong day. I don't know what it is about me. I've done this 4 or 5 times. Like Star Wars—

investors, she doesn't do this with money.

No, I don't. It's— Eric said, he's like like, this is some— this, this like one weird flaw that I found.

So you bought tickets to Hidden Figures and then you were the wrong day?

Oh yeah, Hidden Figures, Star Wars, a couple others. Like, yeah, so we didn't— we— I got it for the wrong day. This was at Kabuki, and I was like, listen, here's what I did. They're like, well, we can get you tickets to this other movie. So that's why I didn't see Hidden Figures, because it was sold out. I think the timing was just completely wrong. It was Kabuki, and I think that day It was on a different time, I can't remember, or it already started or something.

You need to go see it.

I've heard it's amazing.

It's amazing.

Been a little busy.

It's about— yeah, for sure, you gotta find inspiration though. Yeah, it's, uh, I mean, it's just about the three women who helped really get the whole space program to—

oh yeah, no, I know what it's about, but I have—

it's cool.

I've heard it's incredible. I love that stuff. I love like anything that just makes you feel good about what, you know, makes you feel good about what, what's been done before us and inspires you to sort of kind of leave, leave a legacy like that.

And so a lot of— I think the tech industry in general, a lot of things around diversity, around, you know, sexual harassment lately. Yeah, the stuff at Uber. There's a lot of things happening all over the place. As a female CEO, to help us non-female CEOs? Like, what are your— what are your recommendations? How do we be better? How do we care more? How do we make it happen without always having to address that it's happening, right? Like, a lot of friends of mine who are really, you know, they like feminist leaders are like, don't acknowledge it as like a woman in general. It's just like, it's just a leader.

Yeah.

And so how can you— how can— or what would you say to help us all?

I think, I mean, it's a good question because it's not— there isn't just one simple answer to it. It's got a lot of complexity. Um, but I think some ways to start is, you know, one of the things that I see happen a lot is like, oh, we just need to check that box, or we need to, we need to hit a metric. Uh, and everyone gets really excited about their, their metrics and like those things do matter, right? Like you, you do want to see those numbers increase and like being able to show that those, that increase is happening is how you prove that there's change. But, um, I think it has to go further back than that. Like you have to, we have to really be looking at things like unconscious bias and, and like privilege and what does privilege mean and like What is your—

what is unconscious bias? And I mean, I know what it is, but like explain it in this scenario.

Like, uh, you, you make a decision. Like, there's an example of— I'll give the example of like the resume. Uh, when you see a name on a resume, there's an automatic moment of bias that happens just from the kind of name that you see there. I think there's been a study even about like, uh, I, I can't remember all the details of the study, but that you can see a certain, like a man's name and up against like a woman's name or somebody that might maybe is of a different culture and you will, there's an automatic bias there. Like there's this percentage of resumes that end up being chosen if it's the man's name, right? Like it's like—

Huh, did you see this today? So look at the screen. This is on Twitter. Guy and this female, so Martin and Nikki, for a week, for 2 weeks, they switched names. I signed all client emails as Nicole and she signed as me.

Oh my god.

And it says, folks, folks, it fucking sucked.

That's awesome. And so they say why it sucked.

So it's, it's Schneider Remarks on Twitter. I mean, he has an entire thread of like You know, here's the fucked up thing. For me, this was shocking. For her, she was used to it. She just figured it was part of her job. Wow, you know, it's crazy. Nicole had the most productive week of her career. I realized the reason she took longer is because she had to convince clients to respect her.

Mm-hmm.

That's insane. That happens. That's real.

That's super real. Oh, every day, all day, like multiple times a day, this stuff happens.

Do I do it and not know it? Probably.

Yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah, I'm trying to be like so self-aware of it, like, but then I'm like, I don't want anyone to feel bad because it's like I have to try. And so it's like, then I feel like because I'm trying, it's like, well, just stop trying, you should already do this. I'm like, fuck, I have this like insecure battle with myself.

Have you seen the SNL skit of male feminists?

No.

Going awry?

No.

It's good. There's probably—

when is it? What is it?

It's a, an SNL basket about, uh, like, I think it's— maybe it's called like Wild Feminist or something. It's about male feminists who kind of use their feminism basically to take advantage of women. And this is a huge problem too. Like, now we're explaining that. Go. So this idea of like men who are like, yeah, I'm pro-woman, and then they use that just to kind of get in with women or like get a date or get laid or whatever the thing is. And then when they don't, when a woman is like, no thank 'Thank you.' He's like, 'Bitch.' Like, this is in the skit. Like, and then it's this whole idea that like, oh, a man is a feminist until it doesn't serve him in a positive— in some other way. Like, if it doesn't— if it doesn't— I guess it's this whole idea, like, if the man doesn't benefit from it personally, then he's not actually interested in being a feminist. It was just a great— a great article. So like, that's the other thing, it's like Why about— we see a lot of this too, like men wanting to attach themselves to feminism because it makes them look better, or it, it's better for their brand, or it's better for them, you know, in the dating scene or whatever. Uh, this is another like problem that's now in front of us, which—

and well, that's hard. I mean, so on our side, and you know, on the guy's side, it's like, how do I not be perceived as taking advantage of it? Because I mean, I made a stance with our company. I said I want to be 50/50 by 50, which is 50% diverse on all levels by 50 people.

And just do it.

Just do it. I mean, they're doing it.

Don't talk about it, just do it.

That's all we're doing.

Yeah.

And then it's like, you're only doing that now because you know it attracts people. And I'm like, someone actually said that to me. And I'm like, no, I'm doing it because one, I believe diversity of thought is important.

Why do you think you weren't doing it before though? Why do you think now you're doing it?

I didn't even see the problem. I didn't think it—

why do you think you didn't see the problem?

Um, I mean, well, if I think of— if I think of Zarly, right, I think it was about half and half. There were a lot of— it was like a lot of women actually. It was very much— but all the founders were white men.

Yeah, right.

Um, and so I don't— I actually just think I didn't slow down to even make myself care about it, and I was just like, ideas and tech and blah blah. I was like, I didn't even, you know, I didn't— it wasn't my company, to be fair. Yeah, like, so I wasn't like, I get to choose.

Um, and do you think maybe like they're just— I mean, maybe you just said this, but like you just weren't aware, like, yeah, until somebody—

Catherine Spence and Sasha Rothschild, they're two of my really good friends, and they are really, really like mentors to me that came to the Ask dinner, major feminist movement, and always telling me— Catherine, on her birthday, I messaged her and I said, happy birthday, and she goes, hire women. That's all she said to me, I swear to God. And we just— Laura actually joined on Monday. We have another person joining next month. And like, yeah, like, we're just doing it. But I just— I'm doing it because I, one, I think it's a good thing to do for everything. I think having women in leadership and different— like, I don't want everyone to think like me. Yeah, I can actually— and there's a bigger thing here, which is that if AI becomes real, how AI thinks is actually more important than anything. Yeah, there's a huge study on this where— that's actually just reading it, it's fascinating— where machine learning engineers analyzed all of the Army people in the Army And then they started doing like, what does the person look like? So what does a general look like? What does a criminal look like?

Interesting.

And when you search generals, it brings back all white men. And when you search criminals, it brings back all Black men. And because it was trained by all white dudes.

Oh man. And so when you get into it, even our bots have all this crap that we have to deal with now. Like, we—

oh man, how, how things learn is actually another reason why diversity of thought, when we're programming the the training. I mean, it's like any training in life. Yeah, if you're training another human, you start thinking like the person that taught you. Yeah, social influence is real. So it's like, absolutely, that's a whole different like reason where it's actually more important than ever.

Well, and you know, we're talking about this just from like being here in, in America. Like, I wonder if that would change. We— Eric and I were just talking about this at dinner last night. Like, what if How, like, what would that be? What would a bot be like in another country where—

Totally.

—you know, there's a totally different thought there or bias or whatever, you know, the things are. Like, it changes culturally too, which is really, really interesting when you think about bots. Because if bots are like, you know, we think of them in this sort of like linear way, but really, like, if AI does the thing that we're, you know, you're trying, hoping that it will do, and a lot of us hope will be the future. It'll be interesting to see how that evolution of bot exists, similar to evolution of humans and the way we think. And I don't know, it's just so fascinating. Oh man, I could go down this rabbit hole for a lot.

Will there be a religion for bots?

I mean, there's so much money in religion, probably.

I'm sure certain bots talk to other bots because they've learned on what they think matters to make the world better. Yeah. I mean, the world of robots and humans is going to be really interesting.

It's going to be so interesting. Are you a robots kill everyone type person?

Or are you like the humans and robots figure out how to work together?

I think we figure out how to work together. I think that I could imagine a world when we're like humans kind of just become sort of valueless and bots have all the value.

But did you see Bill Gates and Google?

It kind of sounds relaxing, honestly, just hanging out on a beach.

That's an interesting concept people are talking about now is do you get into, uh, you know, if bots do take all the work, then is it a better world actually if you have the options?

I don't know. Here's the thing though, like, people need— like, people, most people need purpose. Yeah, for sure. And that's the thing that I think is dangerous. When people don't have purpose, that creates an interesting problem.

But if you look at it from America and developed countries, the sense that work is purpose is very new. Yeah, hundreds, less than hundreds of years.

But that's gonna take so much evolution. So there's— I feel like there's gonna be a really corrupt time when there's bots and humans and like, we're like, wow, we're gonna just—

but if you think about what defines purpose, it's changed forever. Yeah, like purpose that is your career, very new. Purpose of survival and helping everyone in your community like eat. Yeah, that was like— that was not that long ago.

No, it's true. That's so true.

So then it's like, what redefines what purpose means? Yeah. Is it you get to be creative? And actually, the musicians and the artists are the ones your parents are like, who are on top, grow up and be a great— I hope so.

Play guitar, right? Such a better world.

Oh man. Right now it's like the risky thing. But in the future, if the, you know, the job that can be replaced if you don't use your creative mind is true, then it's like, don't do that. Dad's like, don't go into labor. Don't go into the labor marketplace and caterpillar lines. And he's like, there's no jobs there. Yeah. Like what happens. I don't know, it's gonna be really fast.

It's gonna be really, really interesting. I, I— we nerd out on this all the time at home.

I want to wrap up here, and I want you— you're, you're inspiring, and I think a lot of, especially like younger females, could benefit from your words of like, if you had to tell— you know, people say this all the time— but like yourself 10 years ago something that wasn't, you're not going to be the Katie Couric of sports, what would you tell yourself? Bullshit.

Like, or actually, I mean, I probably wouldn't say bullshit because it's not bullshit, but I don't know.

What would you tell yourself if it was you now? Not that person.

What would—

oh, what would you tell?

What would I tell my 10-year-old self?

Yeah, or anyone listening who is, you know, wants to be that or doesn't really know how. Or, you know, how do you give them the confidence that you have to be able to go out and do this?

The advice that I would give someone is whatever it is you're thinking about, if you keep thinking about it, if that thought never goes away, then just keep pursuing it. Talk to people. Don't be afraid to ask for a sit-down with somebody. Don't be afraid to, to reach out and, and ask somebody how they ended up where they are. I think that the, the biggest thing for me was not that I like was obsessed with this idea of becoming the Katie Couric of the Mariners forever. Like, that didn't stick with me forever. It just evolved into something else. But that like, that innate— there was an innate thing there that, that always existed. Um, and the thing that gave me the, the confidence to kind of go and pursue whatever the ver— this version of it, the relish and even just working in sports early on was my willingness to sort of open my own doors and talk to people and meet people. And you— we talk about it, and again, it's cliché, but like, you really have to believe in yourself. Like, if even if nobody else does, you have to do that. Like, the one person you can control is you. So, so do that.

You know why it matters more than anything? It's because in 3 years you're gonna see someone you went to high school with, and you're spending every day of your life on the relish, and you think the world knows about it, and then they're gonna go, what you been up to? And you'd be like, are you kidding me? That's what happens. And it's like, if you don't believe in yourself, like, no one else— no one else is gonna do it for you.

Oh no, not at all. You know, you— it's interesting. I have a 7-year-old sister and a 16-year-old sister, and it's I— that's amazing. It's really— yeah, my— they're half siblings, but they are very close to me, just like any other sibling would be. And, um, it's really neat to see them, like, to see the amount of confidence that they have and the strength that they have. Like, Brianne is 7. Sorry, I know we're wrapping, but that's good. Brianne's 7.

I think this is so important, like, giving Anyone confidence? What I was like, what, what, what are these students coming out of Stanford have that other people don't? They have delusional confidence because their teachers are people that have really came from— built—

they have a lot of other things too. But yeah, a lot of privilege.

But I mean, that comes with confidence. But like, yeah, they have this confidence that is like, holy shit, I didn't have any of that. My college is like the Better Business Bureau of Macomb is my teacher, and she's like, life's kind of shitty. I mean, it's good college, but it's like, it's just a different, like, optimism and confidence. And I just never— and I— so I think it's so important to, like, how do we give kids more confidence?

It's— I mean, one of the things I— sorry, back to your sister. Yes, I, I would tell my little sisters from, like, very early ages was, you know, believe— like, believe in yourself, you know. Don't— be kind to people, be honest with people, believe in yourself. Whatever it is that you care about, like, follow that, but don't compromise who you are and don't compromise yourself when it could be very easy to compromise yourself. And there'd be examples of that, right? And even just like, I see all the time these examples of, of both girls doing that in their life at a young age. Like, Brianne, 7 and 14, she's 7 and 16. Brianne, I was just home this weekend, she has been bullied at school We just found out this kid like threatened to kill her and was just a horrible little kid. And I, I was talking to her about it and I'm like, Brianne, um, you know, how long is this going on? She's talking about that. I'm like, what, why do you think he's doing this? And I was like, is he doing it to other people? She was like, yeah, he does it to everybody, but he does it the worst to me. And I was like, why? And she's like, because I'm the only one that stands up for myself and I'm the only one that stands up for anybody else around me. I was like, how does that make you feel? And she's like She's like, well, it doesn't make me feel good when he does that, but she's like, I'm not gonna stop standing up for myself. And I mean, I was just like, she's 7, you know? And then the next day she had like— we had just watched that Disney movie Sing, and she's like a little bit of a performer, like she always kind of has been since she's a very— even younger. And she— I came upstairs to her bedroom and she was sitting at her desk and she was writing something down and she kind of hid it and then We went to bed and the next morning I was sitting down at her desk and she had written this letter to herself that was like, "Believe in your dreams. You've always wanted to be on stage. Go for it." Like, and she's very smart and she has like great grammar, like for a little 7-year-old. But like, I have a picture of it, right? Like she wrote this letter to herself and I was like, this is such a valuable life skill that she's just like doing for herself that will, that will carry with her forever. Like, those little things, those little tools are so useful. Um, and, you know, having these little sisters, I think I try to instill a little bit of those things that I've learned along the way into them earlier on so that they can have those, those pieces in their toolkit. What is—

what does your 16-year-old sister say that she wants to be?

Uh, I asked her about it. She's— she kind of shifts around. Like, she She's talked about being a lawyer before. Um, I feel— talk her out of it. Yeah, no, I'm kidding. Um, she, she doesn't know. She's not sure. But she, she has like a— like, for example, like she makes choices already for herself that are good for her. Like, she was playing volleyball. She's been in like select volleyball and doing all these athletes, sports, and she had a bad experience with it. Like, the coaches, uh, she stood up for herself with her coaches, and then her coaches didn't like that, and so they stopped playing her. And she was like, well, this sucks. So she was like, you know what, I'm not gonna put up with that. Like, I'm gonna go do a different sport. So she's like trying out for cheerleading now, and I'm like, good for you. She never, she never talked badly about people. She never, you know, she didn't quit the team during the season. She waited till the end of the season was over. Like You know, she just carries herself with a certain level of integrity and, um, but also confidence. And she didn't let the fact that like, I'm sticking up for myself and then that backfired on me, just disrupt her ability to continue to move forward. And Brianne, I'm seeing the same thing. And I mean, like, to be honest, I guess that those are skills that I've discovered are really valuable. Like, God, when life knocks you down, you just— it can knock you down super hard and you just have to kind of like get up and keep going, and you find out you're even stronger than the last time. Amazing.

Yeah, it's really fun. Thank you for coming by.

Thanks for having me.

From someone who's been, you know, a friend for a long time, I'm really proud, excited, and, you know, I think you'll, you'll do great.

Thank you. Well, likewise. It's been so inspiring to watch you, and you've, you've taught me a lot and been a, you know, just a great person to be able to lean on when I've needed to. So thanks for being you. No, thank you. All right.