Chris Messina: Chapter 1: Great Friends, Great Brands

M-A-C-H-I-N-E-Y-E-S-R-X-I-S-T.

It's Machine Yearning from Assist. It's a podcast where we think and dream about the future of AI, the talking internet, and how we're reshaping our culture. This chapter is an excerpt from our longer conversation with Chris Messina. Chris is a pioneer of practically everything that's been important over the last 15 years. He was part of the team who wrote the original Firefox. He's a co-founder of BarCamp, and he invented the hashtag. In this conversation, Chris drops a lot of bold ideas, but keep an ear out for his thoughts on how the skills that let us be good friends might actually be the skills we need to grow great brands, and what that means for conversational commerce, a term he coined. Enjoy!

I'm super stoked to have a conversation today with Mr. Chris Messina. Chris Messina, how are you?

God, I'm good.

We're sitting here in San Francisco drinking our Sightglass coffee. What kind of drink?

Dude, I got— I went for the pour over. I'm such a yuppie now, but it's the, it's the Kenyan and it like tastes like tea. It's so good. Did you ever think—

After some coffee talk, Shane gets into it. We wanted to know how Chris became the guy we respect and appreciate today.

Take me back. Even when you're a kid, have you always been like the pioneer of an idea that doesn't exist yet, but you can kind of see the dots connecting? Like, where does it start?

God, I mean, it's a great question and I feel very flattered. I'll put it this way. I've never really belonged anywhere. I think, I think that, that my discomfort in my life and in me being me has led me to behave in certain ways, which to make this concrete, I've always kind of been like a social chameleon, which meant that whenever I would go to, you know, like, like in high school or even actually grade school, you know, I always saw like the popular kids and wanted to fit in with them. And yet I didn't. I didn't naturally fit in with them. So I changed my behavior to emulate their behavior, to become more like them in order to hang out with them and to fit in.

What's a specific example of that?

Oh, great. I mean, so one example, one of the things that I observed is like popular people are really good at telling long stories. They will like tell some story about the weekend, like when they went out and they had some beers and like they drove their dad's car and they crashed into like the thing and like it just goes on and on about all their hijinks and ridiculous irresponsibility. And I was always like, that sounds so stupid. But then I'd be like, but that's what they do. They just banter about their stupid weekends. And that seems to be what's so cool about being cool is like how much, you just don't talk about being cool. Yeah. And I was like, well, I can do that.

So is this how you became a coin turner?

Yeah, a little bit.

This is blowing my mind right now, by the way.

This is—

it's amazing.

I guess I had to learn how to like fit thoughts in other people's heads, you know? And also, but another problem that I had was like, I was always very abstract when I was a kid. Like, I was so worried with problems of the world and I really, really struggled. And I've always struggled actually to like focus and get work done. You know, in high school, I was always like, why are we here learning these stupid formulas or whatever? Like, we can build, you know, we can make computers that do this for us. Why do we need to know it? And it was always like a principle thing. It's like, well, you need to know in case the computer doesn't work. I'm like, I need to be able to ride a horse in case my car breaks down. Like, okay.

But you've always been inherently curious.

Yeah. And you're like, why?

And they're like, oh, because. And you're like, that's not a good enough answer.

There's a great question for that. Or there's a great example of that too. Like, I remember so specifically, There was a time when I was in an English class and I was asking a bunch of questions about something we were reading. I don't know, some story. I don't remember what it was. Regardless, I kept asking questions. Why? Why? Why do they do this? Why do they do this? Why did that happen? And finally my teacher was like, you know, Chris, these are really good questions. I'm going to assign the class an assignment. And oh my God, everybody in the class turned and looked at me and gave me fucking like dagger eyes. Like, you fucking dickhead. Like, you just gave us more work. We're trying to do the minimum amount of work possible to get through this thing. And I'm like, I'm just trying to understand.

Yeah.

Like, and so I've always had that curiosity. And again, it's like that curiosity has gotten me into trouble. So to go back to your question, like, how does this happen? Like, how do you get ahead of this stuff? One is that curiosity. Two, it's that lack of belonging, not knowing where to— how to fit in, wanting to fit in desperately.

So the void is actually the drive.

I think, you know, in a lot of ways, sure. And anyways, so as a result, I had to, you know, learned to really observe people and observe their behavior and think differently about what they said versus what they did. And I saw how dissatisfied people were with like the jobs and the work they had. It was like this thing you had to do just to like get by to pay for things. It's like, why? So when I left college and came out here and found the Mozilla project, I was like, this is the future.

And that was the open— because I don't even know if people today would actually know, you know, many people would listen to this might not know Mozilla. I know, it's crazy. So that was an open-source browser going against Internet Explorer. Yeah.

Apparently the latest version is actually very good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what's fascinating about you is that you like, you create the hype, but then you're a skeptic. Is that fair?

Yeah.

So 2015 comes, you're like, conversational commerce. You write this fucking term, everyone goes— I get calls, they're like, we, we want that, that, right? Go out 10 years with your knowledge of just doing this.

Yeah.

And look backwards and say, in 10 years you and I are sitting here and we're like, fuck, we created this. And what are we talking about?

Look, I mean, the whole arc is that we started out with brands that wanted to basically like, you know, brainwash you through television and radio to a place where people were like, well, that's stupid. Like, you don't even have a relationship with me anymore. And like, my friends are way more fun than you are. To brands being like, oh, we're still cool. We're cool. Like, we can hack it. We can get on social media and then we'll just spam you again. Yeah. Until now where You know, people have lots of connections and relationships that they maintain through messaging and through conversational contexts. And brands are like, well, maybe we can do that. But now the power has shifted and now I can block you if you're an asshole. And now I can like get rid of you in a way that I can on television. And so that's, that's huge. So brands that are getting that are like, look, I don't want to be a dick anymore. Like, I've been a dick for a long time and I'm done with that. Like let's level up and like—

The private one-to-one channel is finally gonna make it so like, if you're a shitty friend, you're a shitty brand, you're out.

Yeah, you're out, you're out, you're done. So that's the thing that's gonna happen. I mean, obviously it depends on things like net neutrality and stuff like that, but like, anyway, so brands get to have a shot to sort of show up and to be conversational, and there's a lot of commerce that comes as a result of that, and so that's sort of what I was pointing at. What I think is happening next is that we're about to move into a world that is defined, and I think Apple has done a good job defining it, as bionic computing. I think they use that term very intentionally. You know, the fact that like they have a bionic chip in, I don't know, the iPhone X or whatever, isn't an accident, and it's a big shift, as probably as big as like the I in iPhone, which both stood for the internet as well as I as a person.

So individualism.

Yeah, you think that you—

is that true? Like they They branded it that with that belief then.

It was— so the I stands for internet. Yeah, like the iPod, right? But the I also was not unintentional in terms of it being about I as in me. This is like when I talk about the iPhone as being the first personal computer, it's because it actually represents you. It's jewelry, and jewelry is a way of expressing yourself through physical objects.

That's played out so true. Yeah, and the youth of our generation especially.

It's totally— it's like what device you have, like, you know, even what apps. Totally.

Having an app that's not cool is not cool.

Sure. It's not cool.

My niece is like, the least amount of apps, because if you have one that isn't something, it's not accepted.

So technology has become so fashionable or fashion-oriented. And if you look at that, like, that's how people express themselves. That means they have a faculty with it. It's like putting on a shirt. You know, there was a time when, like, you know, clothing was just like necessary to keep you warm. But in fact, over time became a way of personally expressing yourself. And so we're seeing the same thing happening with technology. Bionic technology, though, is a little bit different in that the level and depth of coordination and integration and intimacy that you have with the devices in your life are going to get so much more profound to the point where it's going to be unclear what the role of parents is like to a degree because—

Say more.

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, that's—

That's a bold statement.

Yeah.

I mean, well, obviously, like, parents hope to and aspire to have a role, but like, yeah, You know, I'm sure you grew up on the internet and like when you were on the internet, your parents didn't know what you're doing. Increasingly, you know, you were tied and landlocked to a house and you probably called up on the internet. And when your parents wanted to kick you off, they could. You got kids now that have phones and wherever they are in the world, they're connected to everything all the time. And you can try to put locks and keys on that experience. But the reality is they'll get around it. Do you think—

do you think there's a future in which you're learning from an Alexa or an assistant, a voice, you're talking to it, and the parents choose to make you like a liberal, open-minded, I kind of believe in Catholic Church. So make sure all the answers are—

well, they can try. They can try. And I think the question is what happens when there's a why that's asked? When, you know, the Christian version of Alexa is like, you know, God did these things and Jesus says this and the earth is flat, and you're like, can you show me a photo? Can you, can you project it on the wall and sort of, and then like it's a 3D representation around marriage equals this, this equals this. And you're like, why?

And it's like, just because it's in the book.

Yeah. And you're like, what book? I haven't seen the book. I'm just talking to a device. What is the book? Interesting. Yeah.

So go out, go out to any, I want to come, I want to, I want to understand this narrative because this is fascinating. Like everyone, I don't like to sit here and talk about like, hey, conversational commerce is going to be a thing and messaging. Like that's, you can go read about that. But the next 10 years, this, this wave. Here's what I'm fascinated by. When you're talking to people, whether it's a brand, whether it's Alexa, whatever it is, words matter.

Yeah.

And in this interface, language is the game.

Yeah.

When it's automated, when does this go off the rails? Like, are— do these become racist? Like, do they start inheriting the bias of us? And if I'm talking to someone that I don't understand, I'm inherently racist just because of my ignorance. But when it's automated, that— I mean, it's going to go off the rails for sure in the short term. Is that a huge—

I don't know that that's really that interesting.

Say more.

And I don't mean that in like—

No, no, I'm just— I'm curious of like—

because yes, like, I guess to answer your question, of course it will. I think the question is whether that's interesting. I think like if you think about that, that feedback loop, right? You think about how you can now have these virtual conversations, right? Where, to put another way, to make this more, I think, understandable, your experience of Google is different than mine.

Yeah, right.

So the more that we use Google, the more that we put our everyday utterances, all of our hopes, dreams, fears, all the things that are going wrong with us, you know, the athlete's foot, like this and that. Google knows a lot about you, so much so that it's not actually going to reveal to you what it knows about you because that would actually make you feel uncomfortable. Yeah, but it actually knows a shit ton about you. So Once we get to a place where there are those types of digital agents and they know that much about you and you're constantly interacting with them and you're, you know, it's funny. Lately I've been walking around my house with my AirPods in and I don't take them out.

And same, like I actually go into restaurants now and I feel like a jerk because I don't take them out.

Right.

Like headphones.

But like when I— so I don't know if you read my post about that, but I think I was— that was another good post where I called them sex sticks that fuck your ears.

You called them what?

Sex sticks that fuck your ears. Basically, like, my point was that Apple is really good at designing products that create lust and desire. And so there had been years and years of Bluetooth headsets. And in fact, if you look like the Pixel Buds, like, they look kind of stupid. Yeah. You know, the AirPods are jewelry that you want to wear, and it turns out that they actually are a very good product and they work well. And I think having, you know, gone through some design school, like, the design language of Apple products and of the AirPods obviously derived directly from the iPod earbuds. So there was, if you already had those in and you cut off the wires, like there's no real difference.

Yeah.

And so that people already were willing to wear those. So anyways, now you have AirPods and they're available always and they've got a little like CPU in them. And so you can like talk to them. Now, I don't talk to mine, but there's a generation of kids who will, right? Because the point of flow. Exactly right. You put in Alexa and I hope someone like hacks their AirPods at some point, but I'm sure because of Apple's proprietary chips, it'll never happen. But if you were to take that form factor, put in Alexa, you would probably be talking to her constantly throughout the day. Yeah. You'd be listening to music and you'd be, you know, talking to Alexa. So to your point about the racism thing, the problem then is if you're talking to Alexa in your head constantly all day long, she's going to start to reflect you and reflect your own biases, reflect your experience. So if you have a question that needs a racist answer and, you know, this thing's been programmed off the internet and there's a racist answer out there, it might be surfaced to you. Got it. Now the question is, What are the cultures and values that are part of these systems and what should they be? And should, again, going back to like the libertarian ideal, should you be able to become as racist as you want or as homophobic as you want or as, you know, gender stereotypical as you want? Or is there a broader cultural imperative to force us to become a lot more open and essentially to, to your point about language and words, relax a lot of the strength of the definitions that we've created to get us to where we are now, to move to a world that's more based on attributes and the phenomenon of an experience, rather than saying, well, this is a male and males behave in this way. And so I will predict that the male is only going to do these things. And so therefore I will only show males, especially young males, Tonka trucks to buy as opposed to any number of things.

I don't think people even grasp the implications that are coming with this space at all.

All right, thanks for listening. Get in touch on the Twitter @assist. DMs are open. We're super interested to hear who you think should appear on the podcast. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode and share this with someone who cares about how we make sense of these changing times. Machine Learning is made by Paul Chufo and Michael Elsesser for Limb In A House. Have a great day.