Love 2.0: How to Fix Your Marriage, Part 2

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. When things go wrong in our relationships, we often try to change the way our partners behave. We tell ourselves that if only they would change their ways, we could be happy. Of course, the problem is our partners are saying the same thing about us. Last week, we explored the power of a radically different approach: acceptance. Instead of trying to change our partners, Clark University psychologist James Cordova says there's growing evidence that we will end up in much happier relationships if we can accept our partners for who they are. If you missed that story, you can find it in this podcast feed. It's titled How to Fix Your Marriage, Part 1. Today, we look at one of the most toxic things we do in intimate relationships. Changing this behavior is not easy, and the ideas we explore today can be a tough pill to swallow.

If the thing that we most want in our relationship is to feel that sense of love and connection and acceptance for each other, this is my relationship. I have to take responsibility for what happens in every moment, and everything that I do and say matters.

How to become wiser in our relationships. It's the latest in our Love 2.0 series, this week on Hidden Brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Southern New Hampshire University. The brain isn't fixed. It's flexible. That means we're always capable of transformation. A master's degree from SNHU can help you build the skills to become whoever you want: a leader, career changer, dream chaser. With no set class times and low online tuition, SNHU makes grad school possible because it's never too late to learn something new. Get started at snhu.edu/brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Planet Visionaries. Professional climber and environmental advocate Alex Honnold hosts Planet Visionaries, a podcast spotlighting the people tackling climate challenges with real hopeful solutions. Throughout season 6, Alex brings together extraordinary changemakers for powerful Powerful conversations about grit, determination, and the power of hope to fuel our fight for a better future. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates, and other insurers. Not available in all states. So much of our distress in relationships comes about not only because we want to change another person but find ourselves unable to do so, but because we sense that the other person could change if they wanted to and just isn't trying hard enough. If I feel you can fix a problem but can't be bothered to do it, surely I'm justified in blaming you. Psychologist James Cordova has spent many years studying this particular cycle in relationships. James, can you talk about the role that blame plays as we try and change another person?

This is a fundamental psychological characteristic for all of us. Whenever we experience distress with other people, we let ourselves off the hook. That can't possibly be my fault. Everything that I do is completely understandable and justifiable. So therefore it has to be your fault. And we're, we're raised in a culture. We come out of a place where we imagine that the way to solve a problem Starts with figuring out who's to blame, and then once we figure out who's to blame, then we know how to solve the problem. And in relationships, that almost never helps. It almost always follows the pattern of you're to blame. No, I'm not. You're to blame.

No, I'm not.

You're to blame. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. You're to blame.

You're to blame. You're to blame. You're to blame.

And we can spend years in that spot in our relationship trying to convince the other person that I'm not to blame, you are. I would say in the history of history, that approach to trying to solve problems in our intimate relationships has never actually worked.

What you just said, James, reminds me of a conversation I had with another Hidden Brain guest some time ago. He said that when we were in high school, we often would go into debate championships or debate tournaments where you would try and make your case, and then somebody else would make their case. And then a judge would decide who had the better argument and would award one person the trophy of the winner. And he was pointing out that we often approach our relationships in regular life the same way that we approach debate championships. We assume that if we make our argument persuasively enough, that a neutral party, a judge, is going to somehow come and hand us the award, the trophy, and say, you are right. The other person is wrong.

You've won.

The debate is over. But of course, in real life, there is no judge. It's just 2 people who are both debating one another with no one to actually settle the debate.

That's so true. And oftentimes when they come to therapy, they want me to be the judge, and they're very disappointed when I won't do it. Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, tell us which one of us is right. And of course it's me, right? And the way that I think about that is, and the way that I talk to couples about that is, it's like 2 fire hoses pointed at each other. Everybody's trying so hard To win. Everybody's trying so hard to be understood and to have their argument accepted, and nobody's listening. And we can do that again for years. We can exhaust ourselves. You're just not understanding me. No, you're just not understanding me.

James once had to help a couple who were caught in this trap.

The main area where they would have so much conflict would be in any project that they were working on around the house. And he would often want to do things in the ways that he considered to be the right way, very meticulous, cross all the T's, dot all the I's. And she would feel like, you're making it way too complicated and you're just dragging this thing out. And so she would try to steamroll him, and he would be the immovable object. So she's the unstoppable force, and he's the immovable object. And neither one of them ever felt any satisfaction coming out of that sense of, of, it's your fault that we're fighting about this because you're trying to get everything perfect. No, it's your fault that we're fighting about this. Because you're just trying to do it the cheap and easy way.

I mean, every movie that I've seen that involves a couple arguing or fighting with each other has some version of the dynamic you just described, James.

Absolutely. And for a reason, because it is so common. You know, our— it is our natural instinct to think the reason that we're fighting is because you're being pigheaded.

I'm wondering, as our listeners are listening to this conversation, I'm sure that the thought that's going through the minds of many people is, James Cordova might be right about other couples and other relationships, but in my case, it really is my partner who is to blame. How do we tell the difference between a partner who might genuinely be to blame and what is just garden variety self-delusion, James?

That's such a good question. You know, what I am often asking couples to do is to entertain the radical notion that maybe I play at least a small part in this. And if we take that and expand it, we can expand it into What if something that I'm doing is actually an essential part of what's keeping us stuck here? And so we can discover how to properly assign blame if we first do a thorough sort of assessment of in what way might I actually be contributing to this? And from that place, Like, if what I'm contributing to this is my judgment of my partner's behavior that's actually making it harder for them to change, then if I can shift that to understanding why they're doing what they're doing, empathizing with why it feels so important to them, it actually allows them to come out of that defensive stance. And to begin to entertain the possibility that maybe I could see this in a more complicated way. Maybe I'm not super happy with my behavior either, but I'm never going to admit that if all I'm getting from you is judgment. If I'm getting understanding from you, then I can start to entertain my own ambivalence about things that maybe are not. Particularly healthy.

James acknowledges there is a paradox here. The less we try to change our partners, the more our partners become willing to change.

It is the paradox of acceptance. I think the way that it works is that when we are trying so hard in all the ways that we know how to change others, to change ourselves, and just being stuck in that spot, the, the— our world becomes very narrow, our repertoire becomes very narrow. Um, it's, it's as though we've, we've fallen into the delusion that the only way through this wall is to beat my head Yeah. And it's not until we can take that deep breath and take that step back and, and develop a more intimate relationship with our own wanting, with our own desperation, our own yearning for change, without trying to get that change, that things start to open up. And in a place where there was no opportunity for creative problem solving. We start to be able to see it from a bigger perspective, and we can find creative ways forward that we couldn't otherwise see. The paradox is that if we're accepting so that we can get change, like, you know what you're doing, you know what you're up to. You can't trick yourself, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna accept this and then it's gonna change. It never works that way. Like, it has to be genuine acceptance. It has to be a kind of surrender. And when that surrender is thorough, then things change. But you can't cheat the system.

When we come back, one of the most difficult lessons in acceptance. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Quince. We all have those pieces in our closet that we can count on. The versatile jacket, the perfect t-shirt. These are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials in designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. And when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on these everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, Or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Hidden Brain. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Psychologist James Cordova studies the science of acceptance. He has found that when couples are in conflict with each other, One of the most common things they do is to blame one another for the problems they are experiencing. If only my partner would do something different, we tell ourselves, both of us could be happy. The blame game rarely results in happy relationships. Some time ago, James came up with a different formulation. Instead of trying to blame your partner, what happens if you eat the blame yourself?

Eat the blame is a phrase that comes out of a story out of Zen Buddhism. And the story goes like this. The head cook of the monastery was in a hurry to make the afternoon meal because the morning program had gone long. So he's rushing out into the garden to pull vegetables and to cut grasses, and he accidentally cuts off the head of a snake and includes it in the soup for the afternoon meal. So traditionally, Zen Buddhists are vegetarians. So having a little bit of snake head in the meal is a no-no. But all of the monks are exclaiming about how delicious the soup is today. And there's a point during the meal when the teacher, the head of the monastery, holds a snake head up in his chopsticks and says, what is this? And the head chef sees that and jumps up from his spot, runs over, grabs the snake head in his own chopsticks, and just eats it. And the whole zendo just bursts into laughter, right? Including the teacher. And the story is about, hey, sometimes we make mistakes. And when we make mistakes, it doesn't have to be an opportunity for deep shame, we can just meet it like, oh, there's a snakehead. I'm just going to eat that. We call that eating the blame. In our relationships, it is a— it is a spiritual practice. It is a deeply intimate practice to shift from our natural instinct to, to avoid the blame, to destroy the blame, to escape any possibility that I might be at all to blame and instead to eat the blame. Something's happened between my partner and I. We're upset at each other. I really want her to apologize. I know I would feel so much better if my partner apologized. And so I'm giving off all my fussy signals, trying to signal to my partner, You need to come over here and make this better. It is deeply emotionally counterintuitive in that moment to think, we're upset with each other. I also did something that hurt her and upset her. And what would be the practice of eating the blame in this moment? What did I do? What can I apologize for? And if I can take a deep breath, let myself feel Everything. Like, man, I really wish she'd be the first one. And I know that the most skillful thing for me to do, the most agentic thing for me to do, the thing that's gonna make the next 15 minutes of our lives better, is if I go to her and say, I'm sorry, I could have done that better. That's eating the blame.

This has to be incredibly difficult to do, James, because you're saying that precisely at the point at which people are feeling vulnerable and hurt and upset and feeling like their partner has hurt them, you want them to focus on how their partner has been hurt and is upset?

I do. I do. It is hard. And I think that's why I often say that intimacy is not for the faint of heart. That if the thing that we most want in our relationship is to feel that sense of love and connection and acceptance for each other, this is my relationship. I have to take responsibility. for what happens in every moment. And everything that I do and say matters. If I say I'm sorry, it matters. If I don't say I'm sorry, it matters. And, and so wherever the relationship goes, there is something I can do in every moment to steer it in a more loving, in a more intimate direction. And if I'm failing to do that, That's on me. But that is, as you're saying, that is a hard pill to swallow. That's why I think, think of it, and I talk to my couples about it, as a practice. If it was easy, we'd all do it. But it's like learning how to play the guitar. It's like learning how to write poetry. It's like learning a sport. Like, nobody's good at it right away. The first time you pick up a guitar, You sound awful. But if you want beautiful, graceful music in your life, you have to practice. If you want deep, sustaining intimacy in your relationship, you have to practice.

I'm thinking about religious and spiritual traditions who have said the same thing for centuries. The prayer of St. Francis of Assisi says almost the same thing word for word as what you've been telling me here, James, which is, ask not to be consoled as to console. Ask not to be understood as to understand. Ask not to be loved as to love. Presumably, there's a reason these ideas have stuck around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Prayer of Saint Francis, and, and for just that reason, because it strikes me that that is hard-won wisdom. I sort of imagine Saint Francis, you know, like sitting down to write that almost not from a place of like, of like beatific insight, but almost like hopeless resignation, you know, like, oh damn, I've been missing this the whole time.

Right.

Like, every time I've tried to make myself understood rather than trying to understand, I've made my life worse. Every time I've tried to seek being consoled rather than to console, I've made my relationships worse. It's sort of like you can see him hitting himself in the forehead. Oh, the other way. The other way. And, and, and then, you know, out of this great heart of compassion, You know, this sense of, hey guys, what if we did this instead? What if we sought to understand rather than to be understood? Give it a shot. And this is like, this is what I oftentimes almost find myself begging the couples that I'm seeing to do. Just do it for 3 minutes and see what happens.

The medicine that James is offering can seem very difficult. But he points out, the alternative only looks easy. It feels like blaming your partner will get your partner to change his or her ways. James asks a simple question: has it ever done so?

Like, name a single time in your life when you've actually had that satisfaction. That satisfaction is an illusion. It is, it is a mirage in the desert of your relationship, right? I am going to fight my way into getting you to accept the blame, and then we're both going to feel so madly in love with each other. I'm gonna feel accepted, you're gonna feel accepted, and we're gonna go off and make love, and it's gonna be great. It— I promise you, it has never happened. That sense of like, I will be satisfied when you Submit to my argument that it's your fault never happens. It's an illusion.

In our previous episode, again, it's titled How to Fix Your Marriage, Part 1, and available on hiddenbrain.org or wherever you listen to podcasts. James told the story of how he once upset his wife by making fun of her propensity to always pick the most expensive item when she visited a store. One time, at a shop selling boots in New Mexico, James went up to the salesperson and, in front of his wife, asked him to save everyone a lot of time and simply show her the most expensive pair of shoes in the store. She got very silent, which is what happens when she gets upset.

At that moment, you know, after I'd done the thing that I usually do, which is like, let's pretend that didn't happen and had that not work. I have this thought, right? Like, I did something. I mean, she's hurt for a reason. That's like, it's not nothing. And there is something that I can do. And for me, it's coming out of this deep realization that I can ignore it. And the next 3 hours of our life are going to be quiet and terrible. Or I can invalidate it and say something like, you just can't take a joke. And then the next 3 days of our life are going to be terrible. Or even though it is deeply humbling, I can say, I messed up. And so I think, if I remember correctly, what I said in that moment was, I'm sorry. I teased you in front of the salesperson, and that was hurtful, and I get that, and I'm just— I'm sorry. I wish I hadn't done that. The apology is like water on dry earth. It doesn't turn the moment immediately. But if you can leave it there with sincerity, it will soak in. And so it takes a few minutes, but then my wife is able to turn to me and say, I know you didn't mean it. Thank you for apologizing. I offered, like, do you want to just leave and go someplace else? And she said, no, let's stay. Let's look at— What they've got. And things were a little tender between the two of us for, you know, the next 15 or 20 minutes. But then that playfulness, that connection just reemerged, right? And so these things aren't like switching a light switch. They're more like creating the conditions under which connection can reoccur. And so, of course, the challenge is It is humbling to apologize, but eating the blame creates the conditions under which we repair and reconnect and, and move relatively quickly back into that place where we both feel that sense of loving connection and playfulness.

One of the things I'm taking away from what you're saying, James, is that when we put ourselves in the position of being the first to apologize or the first to try and reach out or the first to try and understand rather than be understood, in some ways this involves humbling ourselves. Can you talk about the idea that one thing that keeps us enmeshed in conflict Is pride?

It is pride. Our ego is not our friend in our intimate relationship. And, and oftentimes the fight, like we were talking about earlier, the fight to be understood, the fight to get you to accept the blame, is a way in which we are defending our ego, and our ego is protecting our vulnerability. The, the— I call it lowering the ego flag. When we are able to embrace that sense of defensiveness that is our, our egotism, and to recognize that it's actually okay for me to be vulnerable in this moment, I don't need my ego to defend me right now. Then we find our way to a place where we can be so much more skillful in relation to our partner. And it's hard because oftentimes, you know, like, let's be honest, the thing that my partner is saying to me, I don't want to hear, right? It's a criticism of me. It's a complaint about me. They might be saying it from a place of anger. And so I feel attacked, and, and I want to attack back, or I want to run away, or I want to defend myself. But the true intimacy practice, the true spiritual practice, is if I can meet my partner's upset, even if it's anger, with a sense of empathy, like something's hurting you, and that's why you're reacting to me with complaint, with anger, with criticism. And if I can reach through the anger to speak to the thing that hurts, then we're going to find ourselves in a much better place in our relationship 10, 15 minutes from now. than if I'm just reacting to your anger. But that is deeply humbling, to be able to sort of take someone else's upset and just absorb it. Like, you're upset. I can handle that. I can practice seeing through that to the hurt that that's based in. And we can often do that much more instinctively with our children. If If our 5-year-old comes to us ferociously angry, we don't get into a ferociously angry fight with them. We recognize that the anger is rooted in some kind of pain, and we try to address the pain. If we can bring that same compassionately loving attitude to our partners, then we're really cooking with fire.

One of the interesting points that you just made is that our defensiveness often comes from a place of wanting to protect our own vulnerabilities. Our defensiveness can then come out as aggression, as blame. But it's interesting that these things that feel like they're very angry and outward-focused are actually often a form of protecting ourselves.

Right.

from pain. They're actually a form of fear, if you will. We might be venturing far from the terrain that you usually cover. This might be more philosophy than psychology. But could you just talk about this idea that in some ways, much of what we see in terms of antipathy and aggression in relationships is often coming from a place of vulnerability and fear?

That's actually right at the heart of it. The way that I talk to couples about this is, It's so easy for us. We are made exquisitely vulnerable in our long-term intimate relationships. Nobody's going to hurt us as often, mostly by accident, or as deeply as the person that we have opened ourselves up to the most completely. And the way that we respond to being hurt is to give ourselves over to our bodyguards. So we have these angry, blaming, critical parts of who we are whose job is to protect our vulnerability. So when we feel our vulnerability gets stung, our bodyguards come piling out of the back room. to beat the heck out of the person that hurt us. Unfortunately, more often than not, that's our partner who we actually want to be in a long-term, loving, safe-making relationship with. My bodyguards go after my partner, that hurts her, then her bodyguards go after my bodyguards, and now our bodyguards are in a fight, but we are out of communication with each other. And, and Those bodyguards, like, I love my bodyguards, like, and they love me. That's why they fight so ferociously to protect me. But I can't let them run the store. My bodyguards don't know how to count money, right? They don't know how to do good customer service. The only thing they know how to do is how to punch people and throw them out the door, right? So if I'm going to be in a long-term, intimate, safe-making relationship with my partner, I need to be the boss of my bodyguards. So when they come piling out of the back room, I need to be able to come up behind my bodyguard and put my hand on his shoulder and say, I know you're just trying to keep me safe, buddy, but I've got this.

You talked a second ago about the importance of eating the blame and actually reaching out to someone when we feel like we should be reached out to. Does this reaching out have to be sincere, James? By which I mean, when your partner is hurt, do you actually have to feel their pain, or is it enough to say that you wish that you could feel their pain, or say that you wish that they were less sad, or say that you are sorry? Do you actually have to mean all those things?

I love the question because sometimes we can genuinely feel and empathize and have like a natural compassion for the pain that our partners experience. And sometimes we just can't. We're caught up in our own stuff. We can't understand well enough yet to really be able to resonate with where they're coming from. So I guess I would say it's not so much that we have to mean it as that we have to be authentic. So I think if we're being inauthentically apologetic, we are very skilled at seeing through inauthenticity. Inauthentic apologies never work. But if we're being authentic about I really don't understand, but I want to. I really can't feel my way into what's hurting you, but I wish I could. Then that matters. Sometimes the thing that matters most to us is that the other person just cares, even if they're having a hard time getting to the place that we need them to get.

When we come back, we're all used to prosecuting our side of the argument in conflicts with partners. What happens when we prosecute their side? That's when we come back. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Instagram. Instagram teen accounts' automatic protections limit who can contact Teens are automatically placed into teen accounts. Teens under 16 will need a parent's permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Air France. Air France Business Cabin offers comfort throughout the journey, with personalized attention and personalized entertainment. With priority check-in, boarding, and lounge access. Onboard, enjoy menus from renowned French chefs, wines and champagne selected by a sommelier, and free high-speed Wi-Fi. When it's time to rest, settle into a fully adjustable lie-flat bed with added mattress comfort. The art of travel elevated, because Air France Business Cabin goes further in every detail to make your journey exceptional. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. What have you learned about changing your partner in the course of your relationship? Have you come up with ways to accept your partner's flaws? If you have questions or comments you'd like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a short voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideas@hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line Acceptance. James Cordova is a psychologist at Clark University. He's the author of The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection with Your Partner. James, you say one step to get us closer to accepting our partners as they are is to identify what you call understandable reasons for why our partners do what they do. What does it mean to find an understandable reason?

So none of us, you know, do the things that we do for no reason at all. And, and it is often hard for us as, as a partner to— like, all we know is that the thing that you're doing is hurting me. The thing that you're doing is bothering me or irritating me. And that's very much a surface-level understanding. And we're often reacting to the surface level. What I found in working with couples over and over again is if we can bring to what we see as the problematic behavior of our partner a sort of loving curiosity that allows us to dig for— help me to understand where this is coming from you, why this feels so important, what it's rooted in. That much more often than not, we find our way to a place where our experience is, oh, that's why you do this. So I'm thinking of an example where one partner would very fussily at the end of the day go around like checking that all of the windows were locked and all of the doors were locked. And his complaint was, I don't know why I'm the only one in the household who cares, right, about this. And, you know, his partner, you know, was just looking at him like, I don't know why you have to be so crazy about everything being locked. And they would, you know, have multiple arguments about this. What, what we— the, the, the path to an understandable reason was to ask him, was there ever a time when not having the house locked up actually resulted in something that was scary or hard for you? And he was able to tell this story about when he was young, I think like 5 years old, their house had gotten broken into, and one of his favorite toys had gotten stolen. Like, not just like, I loved playing with it, but like, I loved it. I think it was like a teddy bear, right? Like, my teddy bear that I loved and brought me so much comfort was stolen during this break-in. And, and he sort of realized like, oh, that's, that's where I'm coming from. And as he was telling the story, you could see the aha moment on his partner's face, that sense of, oh, that's why you do that, right? And so it shifted from, why are you so crazy about this, to, oh, I get it, right? And again, what I found over and over again Is compassion is effortless. It's not something that we have to bootstrap. Under the right conditions, when we get to this place where, like, I, I see the understandable reason for why you do this, compassion just very naturally emerges.

I have to ask, why would someone break into a house and steal a teddy bear?

That's a really good question. I almost, I feel like I wish I had followed up like, who broke into your house and why did they steal your teddy bear?

Those thieves need some therapy, James. I think the thieves need some help there.

Exactly.

You've written about a couple that you worked with. You call them Mike and Susan. They were able to move toward accepting one another once they identified understandable reasons for why each was acting in a certain way. Can you tell me Mike and Susan's story?

Yeah, I love thinking about this couple because they were such a, ultimately such a beautiful couple. But in this couple, Mike is, he gets home earlier, right, than Susan. And he's the cook in the family. He takes great pride in it. And he loves it. One of the things that feels most connecting to him is when Susan shows up from work on time, and they can have dinner together in this sweet, sort of romantic way. Susan is committed to her job. It is something that she has worked hard to sort of accomplish. And, and when she's there, she's very single-minded about it. And so it's not uncommon for her to get a little bit of a late start coming home. And of course, given where we live, you get a little bit of a late start, you're going to get home really late because you're going to get stuck in traffic. And so the conflict that would arise between the two of them is she'd get home late, he would be hurt and angry and, you know, either have put the food away already or it's sitting out on the table cold and he's fussy about it. And she's feeling like, you don't care about how important my work is to me. And so he's, he's desperate for— I need, I need to know where you are. I need to know what your timing is. I need for you to take seriously how important these moments in the evening are to me. And she's desperate for that sense of, you care about how much effort I've put into, how much, how much I've sacrificed to be able to do this kind of work.

How do they come to a better understanding than their initial conflicts, James?

Again, as with, with most couples, the The path towards a deeper intimacy is a willingness to really hear and compassionately understand where the other person is coming from, which, to the point that we were making earlier, requires for us to, and requires for them to let go just for a moment of the need to get the other person to understand. So when When Mike could let go of how hard he was fighting to get her to understand how important these moments in the evening were for him, and to really hear her, and to think about and remember all of their shared experience of how much sacrifice she had put into, how much joy, how much meaning she gets out of her work, and the fact that sometimes traffic just is what it is, Then he was better able to understand, okay, you're not doing this to me. It's not a deliberate insult or a deliberate lack of care. It is, like we were saying before, it's sort of the beauty of the dumpster fire that is my workaholic wife. And when she was able to understand and to almost envision what it's like to be home early, you're making this meal, you're anticipating this lovely moment, You're sort of like the dog with the tail wag going like, oh, I can't wait for my wife to come home. And then it's 6, and then it's 6:30, and then it's 7. And just the deflation and the upset that comes with that. Then she was again in a better position to feel like he's not mad at me. He's just disappointed. And that disappointed is actually rooted in how connected he is to me.

One of the enduring patterns that has come up over and over in this conversation we've been having, James, is that when people do things that disappoint us, we often don't just see the behavior. We read intention into that behavior. So in other words, in this case, Susan is not just saying, Mike is upset because he made a nice dinner and we couldn't have it together. Susan's saying, Mike is just such a fussy person. We're having dinner at 7 o'clock instead of 6 o'clock. What's the big deal? And Mike is not just saying, Susan's busy at work. It takes her time to get home. Mike is saying, Susan doesn't care about me. He's reading intention into Susan's behavior. Can you talk about how quickly we believe we can read what's happening in other people's minds? And even when we are wrong, this belief that we have that the other person has it in for us now makes us very upset, makes us very angry.

It's an intuitive thing that we do. Like, I'm feeling not cared for, and the internal emotional logic is, therefore, that means that you don't care. And that happens so quickly. It's got so much automaticity to it that if I'm not feeling cared for, you must have done that on purpose. And it takes more time, more effort, more deliberateness to feel our way through that. Just because I'm feeling like you did that on purpose doesn't necessarily mean that you did that on purpose. Let me take that extra 5 minutes. Again, a somewhat humility-based move. To remind myself that my partner loves me. They would almost never do anything intentionally to hurt me. What, what might be another hypothesis for why they're doing what they're doing? But the challenge for us is that that doesn't ever become, oh, I didn't have the experience of you did that on purpose. That can only become Oh, I'm having the experience that you did that on purpose, and now I'm having to complicate it.

You say that many couples complain about having to be too sensitive to their partner's sore spots. They complain about having to walk on eggshells. What do you tell them?

The metaphor that I use for couples about the inescapability of each other's vulnerability is that There is a moment in our relationship where my partner is inviting me into their vulnerability. They're inviting me into their china shop, and I am the bull. So they are inviting the bull into their china shop, and I'm inviting their bull into my china shop. And that's a way of getting at, like, we are both exquisitely vulnerable to each other. And there is a part of us that wishes that in the desire to be our full-throated, authentic selves, we could just toss our horns around whenever we felt upset, and our partner would just meet that with great grace and generosity. But we can't. If somebody has invited you into the places where they are most fragile, You have accepted the responsibility to be a mindful, thoughtful, careful bull in their china shop, and you never get to just toss your head around. And that is— that does require a quality of care and thoughtfulness. And deliberateness. And we often wish we didn't have to. We wish we could just, like, when I'm mad, I wish I could just act out. But I know if I'm paying attention, that if I do that, I'm gonna cause harm. And so my responsibility is always to take good and loving care of my partner's china shop.

I mean, in some ways, it's like saying, you know, if you've been given the privilege of attending, you know, a wonderful concert recital and you're in a quiet hall, there's certain obligations that come with that privilege. You can't actually let your phone run off in the middle of the show. You can't jump up and have a tirade about the performers. There are some rules. that come with this privilege.

Right, exactly. So, and it can be something really, really like blameless, right? Like, I've got a cough. Well, if I have a cough and I'm coughing uncontrollably, I can't be here right now, right? I have to take responsibility for the privilege of the space that I've been invited into, right? If right now I'm too angry, to behave gently, then I can't be here right now. And that's how I respect the privilege that I've been offered of being so close to your vulnerability.

I understand that many couples often complain to you that their partners have changed, that they are no longer the people They once were. Can you talk about this, James, and how people should address this concern?

There is a part of us that wishes our partner wouldn't change, that wishes we wouldn't change, that wishes the world wouldn't change. And I think of it as like a 2-dimensional cardboard cutout of who we want our partner to be or who we imagine our partner to be so that we can get that sense of stability. And behind that 2-dimensional cardboard cutout, our partner is already somebody else. And the real gift of a vibrant, intimate relationship is surrendering to the constantly emerging change that is who we are together and who we are becoming together. There's some parts of us that we are constantly becoming something new. And of course, there's a part of us that continues to be familiar. You know, take my partner, for example. You know, every day there's something new that she's learned. There's some new way that she's becoming. She's just started throwing pottery for the first time, which is a delightful and, as it turns out, It requires a lot of skill. So this is a learning curve for her. And that tenderheartedness that I first fell in love with, that's not going anywhere. And when I can remember that, that is also something that is unique and beautiful and again, vibrantly alive in the moment, because what that tenderheartedness is meeting each day is always something new.

One theme that runs through much of James Cordova's work is that we should think about the health of our relationships the same way we think about our physical health. We should get regular evaluations and stay vigilant to problems. In our companion story, In our story on Hidden Brain Plus that was published a few days ago, we explored a series of questions that James suggests couples ask themselves to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of their relationships. Spotting problems early can allow you to fix problems before they become intractable. Our companion episode was called How Strong Is Your Marriage? If you're a subscriber, you can listen to that episode and All of our subscriber-only content immediately. If you haven't yet signed up, go to support.hiddenbrain.org. If you're using an Apple device, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain. Your support helps us bring you more episodes like this one. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org and apple.co/hiddenbrain. After the break, your questions answered. Researcher Vic Strecker returns to the show to respond to listeners' thoughts and questions about how to find and maintain their purpose in life. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Instagram. Instagram Teen Accounts' automatic protections limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Teens are automatically placed into Teen Accounts. Teens under 16 will need a parent's permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. Working as a dedicated Fidelity advisor, I always ask, what's important to you? I'll look at those priorities and goals alongside your full financial picture Picture to build a comprehensive plan designed to help grow and protect your wealth. With proactive portfolio insights and an eye on taxes, I'm here to help you make the most of your money. I'm Laura Maxwell, and I'm a dedicated Fidelity advisor. Learn more at fidelity.com/wealth. Investment minimums apply. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE SIPC. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. From the time we're children, we're asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? This question contains a multitude of other questions. What do you care about? What are you good at? What makes you happy? As we get older, we find ourselves asking an even more complex question. What is my purpose in life? At the University of Michigan, Viktor Strecker has pondered this question for many years. In this edition of Your Questions Answered, we've asked Vic to respond to listeners' thoughts and questions about how to live a more purposeful, meaningful life. If you missed our earlier episodes with Vic, you can find them in this podcast feed. The first is called You 2.0: What Is Your Life For? And the second, found on Hidden Brain Plus is called You 2.0: The Power of Finding Purpose. Vic Strecker, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

Thank you very much, Shankar. Look forward to this.

Vic, in our initial conversation, we talked about why purpose is so important and how having a sense of purpose can affect our health. Remind us, if you will, of what the research finds about this connection, both when it comes to our mental health and our physical health.

Sure. So people with a stronger purpose, direction, intentionality in their lives live longer, for one thing. And there are now at least 8, 9, 10 studies showing that very carefully. There are 8 studies now showing that people with strong purpose around the age of retirement are far less likely to develop dementia. Which is very intriguing, really. People with strong purpose have fewer pro-inflammatory cells produced in their body. Some of my colleagues have found that people with stronger purpose are less likely to develop heart attacks. If they already are susceptible to heart attack and heart disease, they're less likely to develop strokes. We found that people are less likely to be abusing drugs and medication. They're more physically active. They tend to eat better. And so maybe this is one of the explanations for why purpose helps you live longer. It's because you take care of yourself better. And why do you do that? It's because there are certain things that really matter a lot to you and you think, I better take care of myself.

Hmm. When we first spoke, Vic, you told me about a very important person in your life, your daughter, Julia. Julia had health complications that affected her heart, and she had 2 heart transplants, one when she was a baby and one later in childhood. Can you talk about how these experiences led Julia to find her own sense of purpose?

I think when Julia went through her second heart transplant, she was conscious enough to understand That she may not live a long life. And I think as a result, she became far more purposeful. And I think that's one interesting relationship between salience of death, knowledge that you will die at some point in time, right? And having a purpose because, you know, this isn't a practice round. This is your life, whether it's long, whether it's short. And she understood that she might end up living a briefer life than most of her friends. And so she took the elements of her life very seriously. She took the things that mattered most, her relationships, her friends. She had a wonderful boyfriend. She took her school very seriously. She really wanted to become a nurse and she was passionate about being a nurse. In fact, she was passionate about everything. Because she knew this is the one life that she had to live. And that taught me a lot as well, frankly, about the fact that our lives are finite. This isn't practice, and we should live our lives really almost as Stoics would talk about, where maybe every day might be our last.

So as you shared in our initial conversation, Vic, Julia had a heart attack and tragically passed away at the age of 19. And you found that your daughter's life and death have shaped your own sense of purpose. I'm curious how you help people who may not have the same kind of clarity that you both found as a result of Julia's health challenges. Can you talk about some of the steps you encourage people to take to find their own purpose in life?

Not everybody goes through some difficult tragedy, and that's a good thing, of course. We don't want everybody to have the loss of a loved one to stimulate a person's purpose. But some simple ways you might start thinking about your purpose is simply to ask yourself, what matters most? What are the things that are most important in my life? Another thing to do, and we've just been talking about it, is mortality salience. I have in my book, Life on Purpose, this headstone test. And it's just a real simple test. You draw a headstone any way you want, any shape you want, and put down your name. Say you just died today. And what would you want on the epitaph? What would you want people to say about you at your memorial service? This is really thinking about the end of your life, and it may sound depressing, but it starts getting you to Think about the importance of your legacy. What do you want to leave when you've left this planet?

You say that you rediscovered your purpose after Julia died by returning to teaching. Finding your purpose was a clarifying experience, and for many people, it might be a joyful process. But I can also see how it can be a little overwhelming for some people. Can you talk a little about how you navigate that balancing act, Vic?

So many people I talk to about finding their purpose are worried about the scope of their purpose or the length that they have to maintain this purpose, or even the fact that they're committing themselves to something very big and bigger than themselves very often. One of the things I like to talk about is the fact that there are different domains of purpose. I might have a work purpose. I might have a purpose at home. with my family. I might have a personal purpose. I might have a community purpose. And you might start with these different domains of your life and ask yourself, which of those domains are most important to me? And then within that domain, you might start thinking about, do I have a purpose within that domain? For example, we spend most of our waking hours working. Most of us do anyway. So that's a really important time for many people. And many people might think, well, I just work for the money. But are there other things that you could build in, what some of my colleagues call job crafting? Could you craft purpose out of the job that you have and turn that into something that's a little more powerful and meaningful for you during this time you're spending most of your waking hours?

Hmm.

We received a question about the relationship between purpose and burnout. It comes from listener Valentina. She says the last 9 years of her career as an educator were really hard on her. Here she is.

I have been struggling figuring out what is next for me. I just saw a coffee mug recently that said, if I died and went straight to hell, it would take me a week to realize I wouldn't still be at work. That for me sums up the horrible school year I've had.

I'd like to figure out how to get started. finding my next chapter and my life's purpose. So it sounds like Valentina's original life purpose burned her out, Vic. How can she find new ways to identify purpose in her life? And how do you know when you need a new purpose versus needing a new setting in which to work on your old purpose?

So let's talk about 2 aspects of this question. One is the fact that she got burned out from teaching. And that's not uncommon because it's such a difficult job. People who are in healthcare get burned out from that. You see burnout everywhere. And along with burnout comes loss of purpose. So one thing I'd like to say to this, to this person and to other people who are experiencing burnout is purpose can give you vitality and energy if you start thinking about new ways of teaching or new ways of practicing medicine or nursing. But also there are things you can do that purposeful people tend to do to develop that energy and vitality. I like to think about 5 things that have been shown in randomized trials to actually give you more energy and vitality. One is sleep. The second is presence or mindfulness. Activity, physical activity is important. I try to walk to work every single day that I'm teaching. Creativity. You might think, what, what is there about creativity that gives you more energy? Well, just try doing a haiku and ask yourself, now do I have a little more energy? I ask my students to do that, and invariably they are more vital after they just finished a haiku, and they all raise their hand, I want to read my haiku.

The last factor Vic and other researchers have found that leads to increased vitality, and therefore purpose, is eating well. Combine this with the other 4 factors and you get an acronym that Vic likes to call SPACE.

So if you are burning out as an employee or just generally in life, you might ask yourself, am I giving myself space? Am I sleeping? Am I present? Am I active? Am I creative? And am I eating well? And then over time, become a researcher of yourself and start asking yourself, are there certain Letters there in space that are giving me even more energy. For me personally, I found that being creative was the number one thing I could do to have more energy and get more control, self-control of myself. So I love that. Now, the second part of that question is, if you have burned out like this person has, and now they are seeking a new chapter in their life, That's a perfect time to start repurposing your life, going back and really conducting that self-contemplation, that self-research, what we sometimes refer to as me-search, and asking yourself, what are the things that are important in my life? You might ask yourself, who am I? What is my identity? And from that identity, I think I could start generating a purpose. And that can lead to then asking the question, are there certain skills that I need to generate, to become more effective in this next phase of my life.

What I like about the initial doing research on yourself and noticing how sleep and exercise and creativity can affect you is that it doesn't require you to necessarily know all the answers to all the big questions. You can evaluate, how well did I sleep the last 3 nights? You can evaluate, how much exercise did I get the last How well am I eating? And in some ways, there are practical things that we can do, even if we don't know the answers to the super big questions. What is my purpose? Where is my meaning coming from? We can glean a lot of information from these mundane activities.

Absolutely. I mean, these are the things we've been told to do for, what, decades and decades? And yet, very often we don't do them. But if we are intrinsically motivated to do them and study them about ourselves because we have this big, hairy, audacious purpose in our lives, then we start improving those behaviors and we tend not to relapse as much. If you try to work out more or try to change your diet or try to quit smoking or so many other behaviors, and I'm in public health, this is what I do professionally for the last 40 years, we know that the relapse rates, even after 3 to 6 months, can be 70 or 80% of people go back rebound almost like a rubber band back to their old behaviors. But if they have this stronger intrinsic motivation to make a change, we don't see that relapse as much, not nearly as much.

Hmm.

So your life's purpose evolved after Julia passed away. A listener named Joanna faced a similar tragedy. She became a mom later in life, but nearly 2 years after giving birth, Her daughter died in an accident. Here she is.

I'm now a 53-year-old woman that doesn't have a purpose and doesn't care. My purpose was my little girl. My purpose was always just to be a workaholic. I am now days away from 54 years old, and life is impossible. I have a family, but they have their own lives. They have their own purposes. And I'm struggling to find a reason. Every day is literally a numbing battle. How would you suggest that I find a purpose?

I'm guessing this hits close to home to your own experience, Vic, as a parent who has been through the loss of a child. What guidance might you give Joanna, who is in the midst of unbearable grief?

First of all, I'm so sorry for this person's loss. It is unbearable and it continues. Gradually, it does get better. And if you can survive this, you can be an example to others who go through difficult times. That would be one of my messages. Now, I think being a mother of a person who's lost a child is different than being a father. In fact, nobody goes through the same journey. No one is the same. I went through my own journey by reading Seneca and reading Rumi and many, many other philosophers and poets and writers. My wife went through a very different journey. And she decided to start volunteering in the children's hospital that was always taking care of Julia. And she became a very active volunteer in the hospital, and that gave her life a great deal of meaning. I'm not a therapist, so I don't want to pretend that I can help an individual in a therapeutic way. All I can say is what's happened to my wife and I. And other people that I've observed. And I think it's very important to find meaning through doing, through doing something, through being active, through giving in particular. I'll also say this, and it may sound trivial, but our dog has helped us a lot. We have a Jack Russell Terrier. His name is Uncle Lenny, and he keeps us active all the time. He's a very active dog, requires a lot of attention, and that helps. So that's all I can say is what's happened to me personally.

You mentioned a second ago, Vic, that it's helpful to focus on things that we can do as opposed to things that we can think. Can you talk about the distinction between those 2 approaches?

Well, I think that Doing, I think it was Goethe who once said, in the beginning was the act, and getting out there and acting, getting out there and doing something like volunteering can be very helpful for people. And there's a lot of research that shows this as well. I know for me in my personal life, I could sit and continue to read more and more philosophy and more and more Seneca and more and more Viktor Frankl, et cetera. And all of that was helpful for my mindset. But ultimately, I had to go into the classroom and teach and stop a second as I was teaching or just before as everybody's just walking into the classroom and sitting down and looking at every one of my students and taking a breath and saying, all of you are my daughters right now. Just to myself. I don't say it to anybody in the classroom. I just think that. And then it gives me this profound energy for teaching. And I think somehow trying to create that approach to your doing can be very helpful.

This is Your Questions Answered, our segment in which we bring researchers back to answer listener questions. After the break, Vic will answer questions on how to support others in finding their own meaning in life and why it's never too late to start pursuing your values. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Stripe. Stripe is built for whatever comes next, because scaling your business model isn't a set-it-and-forget-it thing. You want to test, iterate, and launch new pricing plans constantly. With Stripe Billing, you can easily experiment with new subscriptions and launch new usage-based and hybrid pricing models so your revenue model can change as fast as your product and market fit evolve. Reach new customers, expand globally, and keep revenue operations ready for whatever comes next. Stripe Billing powers any business. It's built to support you no matter how much you scale, with a network powering more than 1.6% of global GDP and the partner of choice for 86% of Forbes AI50 companies that have monetized to date. Learn how you can power any business model at stripe.com/billing. Support for Hidden Brain comes from US Bank. With a US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card, You earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. No quarterly activations, no categories to track, just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Visit usbank.com/smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions may apply. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. When was the last time you decided to do something novel and it ended up a failure? Maybe it was something as simple as picking up a new hobby and not having the knack for it. Or perhaps you decided to read a book a month, but got to the end of the year and only finished one. These kinds of experiences may have you asking yourself if you're strong enough, brave enough, smart enough. At the University of Michigan, Viktor Strecker studies the science of purpose and the ways we can all find more meaning in our lives. Vic, in our first conversation, you described a powerful experience you had after your daughter died. You were kayaking by yourself early one morning when you heard her voice telling you, that it was time to get over your ego and start thinking about things bigger than yourself. We had a listener named Gretchen write in with a question about the relationship between purpose and ego. Gretchen writes, As I've looked inward and as I've been seeking my own sense of purpose and as I've asked for help and listened to other stories, I keep hearing that I have to get over myself. I'm inspired to be argumentative here because getting over myself only feels like another form of shaming Gretchen wants to know if she's misunderstanding your advice, Vic. What would you say to her?

Well, first of all, thank you, Gretchen, for that wonderful feedback. Because when I was saying you need to get over yourself, and I think it was actually Julia, my daughter, telling me I needed to get over myself, I try to emphasize that it wasn't like you need to get over this. That was the last thing that I wanted to say. What I was trying to say is I need to get over my own ego. I need to transcend my ego. As opposed to continually ruminate within your own ego, within your own castle wall, somehow rise above that castle wall, open that drawbridge, leave the castle, be exposed to other people, be exposed To failure. Be exposed to the potential for not being perfect when you're out there. Maybe also, I'll never forget a day or two after our daughter passed away, I was walking with a couple of my friends and they were asking what I needed. And I said, the thing I need is for you to still be my friend. When I'm probably not the most attractive person to be a friend with, I really would hope that they would still be a friend. So no, I don't think it's about somehow getting over yourself and turning around and you know just you know battening the hatches and and you're you're going out there going I'm now a stronger person. Darn it. It is more about transcending that castle wall that you're in. I think that's what I was trying to convey. And I apologize if I didn't convey it in that way, because I certainly didn't mean you need to get over yourself. That would certainly be blaming the victim, I think.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how shame and other negative emotions can complicate our pursuit of purpose. Some listeners hear about the power of purpose and they want a sense of purpose, but they don't have it. And now this becomes another source of shame and unhappiness. Did you ever go through anything like this, Vic?

It's a wonderful question. I did not go through any sense of shame in searching for my purpose or trying to find my purpose, but I have run into people who have. I'll never forget, it was maybe 5 years after I wrote my book, Life on Purpose. I was invited to give a keynote to a national OB-GYN conference. So these are obstetricians and gynecologists, many of whom were women. And after my keynote, I ran a workshop about finding purpose. And so many of these people came in from the keynote address And most of them were women. And they said, you just freaked me out, Vic. And I said, how did I freak you out? Well, now this is one more thing I need to do and I need to be really good at. And of course, we know very often that women sometimes feel a sense that they need to be perfect and do better. And there's so many reasons for this, sexist reasons for this, that I try to understand. But it just came out so strongly from these women. And I'm here, I'm thinking these are incredibly successful people, incredibly successful women, professionals who have accomplished everything they strive for in their lives. And here they are. I've just given them one more thing to worry about. That's, that's unfortunate. And I don't mean to be doing that.

We had another question related to shame around one's purpose. A listener named Erica wrote in with a question about how to cope with a purpose that you don't choose, but which is thrust upon you. Erica became a long-term caregiver for a few of her family members at a very young age. Here's her question.

I know intrinsically that this is valuable, that this is meaningful, that this is important. And so I can sound like a horrible, grumpy, selfish person saying, I don't want this purpose, but I would really like to connect with it in a big way and feel comfortable about it and the sacrifices that I have to make in order for this purpose to come to fruition.

How do you change your relationship to a purpose that you didn't necessarily pick for yourself, Rick?

So Erica brings up such an important point, and thank you, Erica, for the question. I just, I couldn't help stopping when you said horrible, grumpy, selfish. Really? So you're a caregiver of multiple people in your family. You were thrust into that role. And then suddenly you are now the person that people turn to. They need you. It's essential. They rely on you. It's very hard being a caregiver. There is some research that shows that many caregivers don't actually label themselves as a caregiver. They just experience the stress. They just experience the difficulties, the noise, the loss of income, the many, many things they have to go through by taking care of a person or people, but they never label themselves as a caregiver. And it turns out to be a very helpful thing to label yourself. I am a caregiver. Suddenly that's saying I have a purpose in my life.

We had another question related to shame and purpose. Listener Cheryl wrote in with this question. When someone loses their job or has a deep disappointment that jars their purpose, Such as an agent saying no to their book over and over, or many nos to job prospects after getting fired or laid off. These nos tend to have people question themselves and their purpose and even doubt themselves. They ask themselves if they're doing the right thing. So I'm wondering if you have any strategies for helping people get back on track. So Vic, it can be difficult to feel like you're on the right track when you keep having doors slammed in your face. What's your advice for Cheryl?

Wow, Cheryl, great question. Love the question. So I like to tell my students to be willing to fail, double the number of failures. There's a star tennis player, her name is Emma Navarro, and she's one of the top 10 tennis players in the world, female tennis players. And her father, Ben Navarro, lives in Charleston and he teaches a course on intentionality. And we were talking the other day and he said, in my class, I have my students go out and purposely fail in something and then write about it, write about that failure, write about the emotions, write about the experience, and write about what you're going to do now. So this is what, you know, obviously really at the heart of what I believe Carol Dweck's growth mindset is all about. Are you willing to fail? And then when you have a failure, how do you interpret that failure? And I think it's very important that you continue being willing to try something and maybe fail in it. It is important. At the same time, if you just keep beating your head against the wall continually doing the same thing, of course, that's not good either. So it's a tricky, tricky answer. Hmm.

There's a narrative in many parts of the world that you need to have an impressive job, a picture-perfect family, a nice house in order to have made it. But it seems like your research disproves this idea and shows that many forms of purpose can be beneficial. Can you talk a bit about the conversations you have with people doing so-called ordinary jobs and how many of them report having a sense of deep purpose?

The classic case of having a purpose in your work, no matter what you're doing, goes back to 1962 when John F. Kennedy was touring NASA and he walked up to a maintenance worker, a custodian, and said, hi, I'm John F. Kennedy. What do you do? And he said, well, Mr. President, I'm helping put a man on the moon. I've heard about so many people who have fairly what one might consider mundane jobs, and they find great purpose in those jobs. I remember we had a septic tank that needed emptying out in the front of our house. And I remember talking to the manager there and asking him about his job. I said, why do you do this? Because it's a pretty smelly job, obviously. It's a very smelly job actually. And he looked at me like, Like I was kind of crazy. And he said, well, for the money. And I said, do you realize that this is one of the most important things that one could ever do in public health through the history of humankind? Taking the poop out of the water system is one of the most important things anyone has ever done for the public's health. And that's what you do. In a way, you are a public health worker. And his eyes kind of lit up. He literally then said, Can I give you my card? And I said, well, of course. And suddenly it almost was like some light clicked in him. I don't know whether that will stay. I don't know whether it's changed his life, but at least at that point, he may have viewed his job in a different way. One of the jobs that's been considered the least purposeful and the least paying His parking attendant. And I started talking about that once in a group, and somebody came up afterwards and told me a story about their parking attendant because they always had to park in the same place. And this parking attendant literally had a small ruler, and he would go around to all the cars and all the tires and measure the tire tread. And then when the car left, the parking attendant would say, if you had low tire tread, say, by the way, maybe you need some new tires. Did you notice you have very low tire tread? That's a very purposeful person.

Wow. What I'm taking away from this, Vic, is that it is the case that sometimes we can go in search of great purpose. There might be activities that we are not doing right now that could provide us with a great sense of purpose. But what you're pointing out is that many of the activities that we are doing now, we are already doing, we can locate purpose within those activities.

You know, how many times have you gone up to a cashier? You're checking out, right? And that cashier looks as if they can't wait. They're looking at their watch. They simply can't wait for their shift to end. And they're counting the minutes. And there are other people who go, hi, how are you doing? How was your day? Did you get everything that you needed? There's night and day. Now, which employee do you think becomes happier? Not just is happy, but becomes happy as a result of those interactions that they have with people? I think it's pretty clear. So, I do think that to some extent, you can choose. To another extent, sometimes you run into a cashier and they're just grumpy and they're not looking at you. And you may interpret that as the person being a mean person, not a good person, or it could well be that they just had an awful day or has a sick child in the hospital or is going through a divorce or just, you know, their husband or wife or spouse just lost their job. There are many things that people are going through. So making attributions about why a person is acting in a certain way, I think, is is not a good thing to do. On the other hand, trying to extend yourself to another person in a way that may improve— I can't tell you how many people, if they are just looking kind of glazed-eyed or grumpy, I might ask how their day is going. And very often they'll turn to me and say, well, here's how it's going. And then you have a conversation, and you leave much more— both of you leave much more satisfied.

We had a few parents write in about centering their life purpose around their children's well-being and feeling apprehension about what will happen once their kids grow up. A listener named Nita sent us a question on this topic.

I'm a physician in my mid-50s and suddenly finding myself at a loss to find the right purpose to go on.

When you're younger and you're trying to build your career, make sure you have the right amount in your nest egg, raising children, making sure that they turn into productive citizens, all of that might sound hard, but you have this inbuilt purpose, and you don't have to make a new purpose on a daily basis. To feel that you're not just merely surviving, but you're actually thriving. And suddenly I found myself at that point where my children are turning into productive citizens. They don't need me anymore. They're in their mid-20s. I am doing well in my career and yet find myself lacking.

Hmm.

In something so deep-seated that it's hard to express?

How does one find a new purpose? How does one find something new, something meaningful, something that's beyond oneself?

So we had other parents write in to express similar anxieties, Vic. What would you recommend to folks like Nita?

First of all, the micro issue itself of being an empty nester. So this happens very often when parents have devoted so much of their attention, their lives to their children, and suddenly their children are gone. You can certainly help a person after they have left the home and support them through your own advice, through financial assistance, through many things, through encouragement, through being a sage that they turn to, a person that they turn to for advice. All of those things are certainly helpful. But also, it may well be a time for you to become a really great model for your children in how you actually live this next chapter of your life. For example, maybe if there are other things they can get engaged in, it could be a hobby. You can be very purposeful within a hobby. I know, for example, I work in a medical school, so I know a lot of physicians who in retirement or as they became empty nesters took up things like woodworking or painting or other hobbies, and they became enamored with those and really got into it. They're happy, or maybe it's pickleball, whatever it is. What you're doing then is setting example for your children that it's not all about having children. It's not all about them. It is about doing something that's fulfilling and flourishing in your— that you can produce, you can flourish in your own life without the necessity of children. And what that makes you, I think, is a better parent.

You pointed out to me that when you returned to your classroom after Julia passed away, you started to look at all of your students as your daughter, as your children. In some ways, that does offer a possibility, does it not? If you're an empty nester, yes, maybe your children don't need your help anymore. Maybe they're well settled and they're becoming productive citizens, and that's wonderful. Surely there are other children who might need your help?

Precisely. I couldn't agree more. When you start looking outside of your immediate family and start asking, what could I do for my friends? What could I do for my neighbors? What could I do for my community? What could I do for my country? What could I do for people in other countries? That to me is the epitome of, of purpose and a transcending purpose. And there's probably nothing greater that you could teach your children than this act of self-transcendence and moving beyond the immediate family. Obviously, they've given you a lot and you've given them a lot, but what do you really give them now? You give them the example of yourself.

This is Your Questions Answered, our segment in which we bring researchers back to answer listener questions. When we come back, we'll talk about whether there's a way to measure our success at pursuing our purpose, plus how to encourage loved ones to find more meaning in their lives. You're listening to Hidden For Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from LinkedIn. Hiring for a small business is hard. LinkedIn Hiring Pro acts like a helpful hiring partner. Chat with it about what matters most, compare candidates side by side, and share feedback like, I want someone with more hands-on experience. HiringPro adjusts and surfaces candidates who fit your needs. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com/hb. Terms and conditions apply.

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This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In a world that is constantly in flux, it can be difficult to know what to prioritize. Family? Work? Your own well-being? At the University of Michigan, Viktor Strecker researches how to find direction in life. His work focuses on the science of purpose and the ways we can all benefit Vic, your previous conversation with us clearly struck a chord with listeners. We received a flood of questions and comments from people who are interested in engaging deeply with the ideas we discussed. I'm curious to hear whether you also received a number of responses to that episode and whether they've impacted how you think about your work and research.

I've received a huge number, hundreds many hundreds of responses from people through email, through LinkedIn, through many, many ways. And it seems to have really touched a chord. And from that, I am grateful because I think this is a very important area of people's lives now. And it's not just since COVID I think you could go back 2,400 years to Aristotle, who asked these same questions of what makes us happy. And he basically said having a purpose and direction is what makes us happy.

Hmm. So many of the questions we received from listeners had to do with how to identify your purpose in life, whether that is during a life transition or after a loss of some kind. But a listener named Victoria sent us a question about the opposite problem. having too many purposes in life.

And I have been a, a student of purpose since I graduated from college, and I have felt like I have had multiple purposes for so long, but I have had the hardest time activating them and really nurturing them to be fulfilled to their highest level. What is your thought or suggestion for people who may be like me and just have all of these multiple purposes and ideas and passions and heartfelt things that they want to see in the world, but just may struggle with not spreading themselves too thin trying to do it all.

So Victoria seems fortunate in that she's almost overflowing with purpose, Vic, but she finds it challenging to know how to prioritize her passions and concentrate on one or two things. What guidance would you offer her?

I can relate to Victoria, by the way, because I have lots of purposes in different domains. I certainly have community purposes. I have family purposes. My wife and I have strong purpose in our relationship together. We have purpose with our children and certainly strong purpose in work. So I can relate. And I'm always thinking, boy, how do you balance these purposes? I can talk about getting more energy and vitality so that you can develop, actually be more aligned with all of those purposes. But can having so many different domains of purpose burn you out? I would think so. Yes, I think it can be. So you do need to give yourself some downtime. Some relaxation time, maybe even some purposeless time. As one of my mentors, Jim Lehrer, has told me many times that energy is the most important aspect that we can have in our lives. Thinking about not health, but thinking about energy. Do I have vitality? Do I have energy? What gives me more energy every single day? So we could go all the way back then to these SPACE criteria of sleep, presence, activity, creativity, and eating so that you can live and be purposeful in multiple domains. At the same time, you may need to learn to say no as well.

Hmm. A listener named Julie asked about how we can know if we are achieving our purpose.

My question is, how do we measure if we're achieving our purpose? Sometimes I feel like, God, there's So much that I can't fix, and maybe it's more about agency, but yeah, I sometimes feel like, am I doing enough?

And do I need to have self-enhancing goals in order to create that pathway so I can use my agency?

Wondering what you think, Vic. Is there a way to measure our success at fulfilling our purpose?

Wonderful question from Julie. I think I'm going to separate the word goal from the word purpose. So a goal is achievable. I mean, almost by nature, a goal typically is something that There is a possibility of achieving. Now, goals are very close to purpose, but purpose doesn't necessarily need to be achievable. It needs to be aspirational. So I may aspire to teaching every one of my students as if they're my own daughter. That's probably not achievable, but it is aspirational. In other words, I go into the class with a mindset or into my office hours with a mindset. that I am going to try to do that. That becomes a purpose, a direction, an intention of mine, but not necessarily a goal that's achievable. So the two are different. And I have to accept the fact that the purposes I have in my life are not going to necessarily be met.

You spend a lot of time, Vic, in your professional life teaching people how to find and fulfill their purpose. We had listeners ask how they can do the same for other people in their lives. An elementary school art teacher named Erin sent us this question.

We're amidst a mental health crisis, which includes our youth. And if we as adults struggle to thrive without purpose, how do we expect our children to thrive?

So you work with young people at the college level, Vic. Erin works with children much younger than that. At what age do you think it's appropriate to introduce themes of purpose to kids? And how can you encourage kids to begin to find their own purpose?

Well, first of all, there is another episode that you did with a person named Tony Burrow, Anthony Burrow at Cornell. And Tony Burrow is a developmental psychologist. So he focuses a lot on that developmental process. And he's one of the world's experts on purpose. So first of all, I'd suggest you go to that episode and listen because it's such a powerful Wonderful episode. But what I would suggest, and I have worked with kids different times, different situations, and I think the idea of starting with what matters most, just like with adults. So if you ask a child, what matters most right now? And they may go, climate change matters most. There are different things that may matter most. I'll give you one example.

Yeah.

My 7-year-old grandson saw a documentary about shrimp and the unsafe harvesting of shrimp. Well, he was so alarmed by this that he decided to put together a group of people in his hometown. They made signs and the signs said things like, save the shrimp. And suddenly the ex-mayor became involved in this and they started parading along the side of the street with these Save the Shrimp placards. And this became a purpose of his, and he's 7 years old. So I do think that you might start with what matters to you, what matters most, what are some of those things? And on the basis of that, maybe think about how you could become more purposeful. Are there certain things you might be able to engage in that are meaningful to the things that matter? Starting to live that way. Imagine, I can't wait to see that 7-year-old grandson grow up into an adult and just, boy, watch out world.

I'm wondering when the students that you are teaching in college, Vic, they often feel so much pressure on their shoulders. They're being asked to figure out their first jobs, their life trajectory, the areas that interest them. Does adding on the demand that they also do something that is purposeful add sort of one more stress to their lives? Do they ever report that to you?

Here's how I think about that. I believe that students need to know who they are, meaning what are their core values, explore their identity. Is the identity that they're striving for, does that fit? Almost like a suit. Try the suit on, wear it for a while, see whether that works for you. Do you like being this person who wants to be wealthy? Do you like being this person who wants to be generous? Do you like this person who wants to be a healer? Whatever. Try those things on for a change. Find out what your core values are, what your identity is from those core values, and from that, find out whether The strengths that you are trying to develop are the right strengths. Because ultimately, I believe you will flourish if your behaviors, if your profession, if your emotions all come from this root system, almost like a tree. So if you start with the roots, as opposed to starting with the branches of the tree, like what career do you want to be involved in? Well, the majority of people who are majoring in something 10 years later aren't doing that. So start with what you value the most in your life. What are those important things? From that, a purpose can evolve. From that, you start looking at your strengths, and you may also find things that you need greater strength in. I might need to be more patient. I might need to be more inspiring. I might need to be more thoughtful, more studious, whatever those things are. How do I become those things? How do I build those strengths? And from that, Then suddenly the profession starts becoming easier for you. And also, as we all know in our fields, opportunities come by. And if you don't take that opportunity and you say, I can do that, and you jump on that, and to some extent even you may have to fake it until you make it, as they like to say, having enough skill, having enough strength that undergirds that, is really, really important. The final thing I'll say is if in the process you think about your core values and you're starting to question them, you might ask, if this is a tree metaphor, what is the reservoir underneath that root system that's feeding those roots, those values? Is it a religion? Is it a philosophy? Is it your community? Is it your parents? I think we need to have people, especially my students, what I have my students do is try to explore the sources more.

Quite a few listeners wrote in with questions about how to prompt their loved ones to live more purposeful lives. One wrote in asking how to help her elderly parents continue to pursue purpose. Another listener asked if there was a way to encourage his adult siblings to lead more meaningful lives. What advice would you have for these people who want to know how to encourage others to live a life of purpose, Vic?

So often, people's parents will tell you, especially when they move into their 70s or 80s or even 90s, I've lost my purpose. I used to be a big shot at work, or I had this family, and now suddenly I don't. I don't really have that purpose anymore. How do we help those people? How do we help older people in general find greater purpose. But one of the pieces of advice we give pretty regularly to older people is to think about volunteering. Volunteerism has been shown to improve people's purpose. It seems to actually improve our epigenetic or our biological clocks, actually. So volunteering can be really helpful. If you think about yourself and then your family and then your friends as being in concentric circles, And moving out further and further in these concentric circles of helping others, being kind to these other people, as you move further out, I think actually you become a happier person. Now, that's just a theory that I have, but I really do believe that. I tell people who are my students in public health, you will end up helping people. It will be your job to help people. Many people who you might not ever meet, you might not know, and to some extent you might not even like. That becomes your job. And if you take that job really seriously, you are in public health. And you will, as Jonas Salk said, be a good ancestor. You will leave a legacy.

Victor Strecker is a public health researcher at the University of Michigan. He's the author of Life on Purpose: How Living for What Matters Most Changes Everything. Vic, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

It was my pleasure and honor, Shankar. Thank you.

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Christian Wong, Laura Quirrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. We wanted to take a moment to say thank you to Loom by Atlassian for sponsoring the Hidden Brain 2025 Perceptions Tour. While on tour, we asked members of the audience to tell us about some of the best advice they ever received. Here's one piece of wisdom shared during our stop in Boston. My name is Candace, and this is really simple advice. It's not long, but it's something that I think about a lot that someone told me once, and I think it was when I was in college, and I would get very overwhelmed about things, tests, you know, all the things that had to be done, and they said, are you going to remember this 50 years from now?

Like, is this really going to be important 50 years from now? And it has really helped me a lot, even with little problems or arguments you have with somebody, or the way you want to go somewhere, you want to do it this way, to think, is this thing that I'm stressing over going to matter 50 years from now?

Yeah, that's wonderful advice. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks to Candace for sharing that advice, and thanks again to Loom for sponsoring the 2025 Perceptions Tour. Loom is AI-powered video communication that moves teams forward, whether you're sharing feedback, obtaining approvals, or setting context. It removes the friction by making it easy to share and collaborate on work without having to be in the same room or time zone. Try Loom today at loom.com. That's L-O-O-M dot com. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

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