We Need to Talk

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. At various points in our lives, all of us turn to coaches and trainers. If you're a student athlete, you might need a coach to improve your tennis stroke or soccer footwork. If you need to take up a musical instrument in your 30s, you'll need the help of a piano teacher or guitar instructor. If you decide you want to learn a new language in your 50s, you sign up for classes with an expert in that language. But there are lots of domains in our lives where many of us never dream of recruiting the help of a coach. That's because we feel we are masters in those domains already. We don't need a coach to help us breathe or walk or talk. Or do we? Just because we've done something a long time doesn't mean we are doing it right. Just because we feel we are skilled at something doesn't mean we don't have plenty of room for improvement. Today on the show, we focus on a skill that seems so commonplace that many of us fail to see how difficult it is to do well. We're going to look at how we engage in conversation and the things we can do to get better at it. Learning to talk. This week on Hidden Brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Southern New Hampshire University. Science consistently tells us learning starts with motivation. That's why SNHU offers over 200 flexible, affordable online programs to help you get where you want to go. Take classes that spark your curiosity, shape your skill set, and prepare you for what's next. A degree can help move you forward no matter what motivates you. Start yours at snhu.edu/brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Planet Visionaries. Professional climber and environmental advocate Alex Honnold hosts Planet Visionaries, a podcast spotlighting the people tackling climate challenges with real, hopeful solutions. Throughout season 6, Alex brings together extraordinary changemakers for powerful conversations about grit, determination, and the power of hope to fuel our fight for a better future. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. When discussing the children in our lives, we say they learn to talk at age 1 or 2. For the late bloomers, maybe it's 3 or 4. We make it sound as if learning to talk is something we master early and then practice without a problem as adults. But it turns out that most of us have a lot to learn when it comes to having conversations that are dynamic, engaging, and meaningful. Alison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. For many years now, she has studied the science of conversation. Alison Woodbrooks, welcome to Hidden Brain.

Thank you so much for having me.

Alison, when you were younger, you went on a blind date that was memorable for all the wrong reasons. Can you paint me a picture of what your life was like at the time? and who this mystery man was?

Yes. I was living in New York City, and I was set up on a blind date by a friend. It might have been the only blind date that I've been on in my life. And it was with a man who had a job, a good job, great job in finance. He had gone to a good college. He'd played football in college. And I had seen photos of him. My friend had shown me photos of this guy, and he was, you know, so handsome. So I was excited. I went and I met him. downtown for dinner at this sort of busy, bustling, loud restaurant/bar. And I settle into the table, and off we go.

So he, in some ways, is the real-life version of that popular meme that's been going around, which says, I'm looking for a man in finance, trust fund, 6'5, blue eyes.

Exactly.

I don't know about the trust fund, but truly everything else. This was this sort of Adonis of a man that so many women, I think, are hoping to meet.

Yes.

All right. So that's very optimistic and hopeful. So what happens when the dinner gets underway?

So I settle into this table. at this buzzy restaurant in New York City downtown. And I mean, across from me at this table is this beautiful man, and I'm so excited. And we just launch into— we launch into conversation. Now, the whole point of a first date is to get to know each other. So I am pelting him with questions. Where is he from? What's his family like?

How—

what was his college like? What was it like to play football there? Tell me more about your football career.

Hmm.

What's your job like now? Where do you live? Do you have lots of friends in the city? So I'm asking him lots of questions, and I realize that 10 minutes have gone by, and he has not asked me a single thing about myself.

Wow.

10 minutes. And I realize at this point that this has been a complete sort of absence of question asking in my direction. And at that point, you sort of have this out-of-body experience, and I'm floating over the table looking down at this conversation game that's now afoot. And I— you start to play this little game where you're like, how many questions can I ask this person before they ask a single question back to me? Like, how far can I push this?

Uh-huh.

And I think he doesn't really realize that I'm playing— now playing this game. And he doesn't— he certainly doesn't realize how badly he's losing the game. And another 10 minutes go by.

Wow.

20 minutes, he has asked me nothing about myself.

Wow.

He has no idea that I'm like, Devastated and really feeling sort of hurt that he doesn't seem reciprocally interested in me.

I'm assuming at this point you're asking yourself how you can extricate yourself from the date.

Absolutely. How quickly can I get out of here? So I excuse myself to the restroom and I sort of collect myself. You know, I'm looking in the mirror, maybe touch up my lipstick, and I'm thinking, what do I do now? And this really decisive feeling washes over me. I just gotta go. I gotta get outta here. There's just no way that I have a future with someone who can go 20 minutes without asking me a question. Right?

Mm-hmm.

I need someone who's interested in me, and my perspective, and my feelings, and my life. And so, I make my way back to the table, having made this decision. I say, thank you so much for meeting me for dinner. I have to go. And I collect my things and I leave.

Did you ever hear from him again?

I did. He texted me later that night and he said, you're beautiful. I had a great time. I want to see you again. Which, by the way, still there is no question. I mean, it's like, fine, lovely. But he's There's no question of, are you okay? How are you doing? Did you get home safely? Is everything all right? No questions. I mean, it was really quite wild. And, you know, I'm a bit of a people pleaser. I don't usually— I'm not usually overly direct with people, but this moment felt like he really could benefit from some feedback.

Hmm.

I mean, his future girlfriend, who's looking for a man with blue eyes, and a job in finance, and 6'5, is gonna find this guy, and I want him to be able to make that person happy.

Uh-huh.

And so I text him back, and I just say, I just want you to know I left because you didn't ask me anything about myself.

Wow.

And it really made me feel like you weren't interested in me. I'm really grateful that you met up with me, and I wish you the best.

There was another instance in your life, Alison, that illustrated in some ways the nature of conversational pitfalls. You went out for dinner with a good friend of yours. There was something you had been working up the nerve to tell her. Who was this friend, and what had you wanted to tell her?

Oh, yes. This was a dear friend of mine. We had been friends for a very long time, coming up on 10 years, and she was dating who was great, but I just wasn't sure they were a good fit for each other. And I knew that they were starting to think about getting engaged and maybe married. And probably for over a year, I had just been sort of feeling kind of worried about her. Like, is this the right person for you? She was so spectacular, and I just felt like maybe he wasn't right for her.

Hmm.

And so, I'd been grappling with this idea, you know, should I raise this with her? Should we talk about it? Is our friendship strong enough that we could handle a topic like this? Is it my place to even raise a topic like this, even with someone that I'm so close to?

So did you raise it at the dinner?

Yeah. So we were at this sort of trendy restaurant downtown, and there was music thumping, and we were eating delicious foods and having cocktails. And I worked up the— finally mustered the courage to tell her what had been on my mind. And I could tell that she was both intrigued and interested in what I was telling her, and she engaged with me on it so nicely. But, you know, as so many hard conversations, hard topics become more difficult over time, I realized that she'd heard me, she was maybe getting a little bit emotional, and so I didn't want to push it.

Hmm.

And I switched topics, and we moved on. So after this dinner, I felt so proud that I had worked up the courage to be direct and honest with my friend, and proud of her for being so receptive to my perspective. And it just— I felt like the conversation had gone really well. So fast forward 2 days, and a text message pops up on my phone from my friend. And immediately, I'm so curious. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, has she—

did I—

Did I change her mind? Had she been thinking about this? Is she ready to open up about maybe she's been wondering about this guy too, and maybe they— she kind of knows they're not a good fit for each other, and she's gonna say, thank you so much for empowering me to really say this out loud? I was excited to see how she was gonna react. And I opened my phone, I opened the text message, and what do I see? I see a photo. It's very clearly her hand. It's the same bright red nail polish she'd been wearing at our dinner just 2 nights before, and a beautiful diamond ring on her ring finger. Her boyfriend had proposed.

Wow.

And she had said yes.

Wow. So when you had that conversation with her at dinner, she wasn't being reticent because she was thinking deeply about what you were saying. She was probably saying, I don't know how to tell Allison that, in fact, my boyfriend has proposed or is about to propose.

That's right. And that she had already helped him pick out the ring.

Oh, wow.

She—

I think she was grappling with a lot of feelings in that moment. She didn't want to embarrass me. She didn't want to hurt me. She didn't— maybe I made her feel embarrassed that she was ready to go forward with this huge step in her life. Or maybe, and this is— maybe she didn't really hear me. You know, I kind of mentioned it quickly, and I didn't go— I didn't want to make it a dramatic thing, and we moved on quickly.

Yeah.

So maybe she wasn't even really able to process what I was saying. I don't know. Because we, we never talked about it again.

Yeah, I mean, you must have felt terrible, Alison, at telling her to break up with her boyfriend, you know, moments before he proposed marriage to her.

I felt horrible. I felt like, I felt like such a terrible friend and such a terrible person and like I hadn't fulfilled my duty as a good friend to be excited and supportive and sort of there for her. I worried so much that my feedback had tarnished the moment when he got down on one knee and said, will you marry me? I mean, I worried that I popped into her head. If for even a split second she was thinking, maybe I shouldn't do this because my friend doesn't believe in it.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I still to this day feel guilty If that was— if I popped into her head at all in that beautiful moment.

I'm wondering if your own worries and concerns about bringing up the topic with her and the fact that you were so anxious about it and so focused on how you were feeling about it, is it possible that that kept you from seeing the cues that might have actually told you something different about the situation?

Absolutely. In searching in her eyes that became misty during that conversation, I saw someone who was listening to me and engaging with me so receptively on this difficult topic. I didn't see, oh, gosh, she's struggling. She's struggling to share with me this reality that they are getting engaged imminently.

Hmm.

And I think I was too focused on my own perspective and working up the sort of courage to deliver this feedback and not focus enough on how she was receiving it.

When we come back, why conversations are much more complex than most of us realize and how to get better at them. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates, and other insurers. Not available in all states. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Quince. We all have those pieces in our closet that we can count on: the versatile jacket, the perfect t-shirt. These are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials in designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. And when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on these everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Hidden Brain. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Most of us engage in conversation all day, every day. with partners, children, friends, coworkers, neighbors. Yet, despite all this constant practice, we're not as skilled at talking to others as we might expect. We miss cues, misunderstand what others are saying, and get stymied by moments of awkwardness or tension. At Harvard Business School, Alison Woodbrook studies the science of conversation— what makes talking with one person a joy and talking with another person a chore, Alison, when you start to dissect a conversation like a scientist, you realize that it's more complicated than we realize. You call it a complex coordination game with trapdoors and challenges hidden inside a maze of decisions. What do you mean by this?

Oh, it is such a complicated coordination game. We are making hundreds of micro-decisions at every moment of every conversation, and we have to coordinate those micro-decisions about what we say and how we say it with another human mind. And then when we're in a group with many other human minds who are all making their own micro-decisions at every moment of every conversation.

Hmm.

So when you start to sort of study the science of it and look at these micro-moments and these micro-decisions, you also realize that it's a miracle that human beings have figured out how to Talk at all, really, to coordinate their turn-taking, to speak and listen, to share understanding through their words and their gestures is, is miraculous.

Now, in certain moments, I suppose it's possible to communicate to the other person I think the conversation's going off the rails. I'm feeling sad. Can we talk about something else? You shouldn't be telling me to break up with my boyfriend. In fact, I'm about to get married to him. But in many situations, that's inappropriate to do. So talk about this added complexity. It's not just that we have these huge complexity of different things that are happening, but we can't actually openly talk about them.

That's right. We cannot possibly communicate about all of these micro-decisions. We cannot— the irony of it is that even while we're talking to each other, we can't actually communicate directly about all of these things. Not only for feasibility concerns, we don't have enough time to communicate about all these decisions, but also we have this expectation of sort of naturalness.

Yes.

A good conversation needs to feel like you've alighted on delightful topics without talking about it, that you understand each other's minds without communicating directly about it. That's sort of where the magic lives. And too much direct communication can quickly undermine that magic.

You say one reason people may be less skillful than they could be at conversation is that they rarely get feedback on their conversational missteps and bad habits. I'm thinking back to your blind date. You know, I imagine this man had gone on other dates before he went on a date with you, and other women may have felt exactly the same way that you did.

That's right. In many ways, he finally met the right woman to give him feedback that would be so valuable for him. But in other ways, some would say that he went on a date with the wrong woman, messed with the wrong girl. That's right. We just— it's so rare to get certainly direct feedback about, oh, that joke was really funny, or I really loved when you gave me that compliment, or hey, you've asked me 16 questions so far. Good for you.

Yeah.

Or hey, that thing that you said, I didn't quite understand it, or hey, When you said this, it really hurt my feelings. We just don't have time to communicate in that way and give live feedback like that. And it just goes against all of the sort of norms of human-to-human communication.

I'm wondering if the problem is actually compounded when it comes to our acquaintances. When we have a close friend or a relative or a partner, maybe we do sit down and have a conversation with them about something that's bothering us. But I can think of many acquaintances who say and do things That rub other people the wrong way, that rub me the wrong way. I never say anything. Nobody else says anything. The person goes through life blithely believing that everything they're saying and doing is fine. Of course, I suppose it would be inappropriate for us to go up to every acquaintance and say, can I give you feedback on the way you're talking to people? That would seem very odd. But at the same time, it means that most of us are left in the dark about how we are behaving.

That's right. That's right. And I think every once in a while, you encounter someone who is courageous enough and kind enough to actually tell you in a— that, hey, I really admired when you did this thing, or it really hurt me when you did this. But it takes such an incredible array of sort of stars to align and a very skilled person to be able to deliver feedback in a way that doesn't feel overly personal, overly threatening. It also requires a really sturdy relationship.

That's right.

trust each other in order to be able to say something so vulnerable to someone.

Let's look at some of the trapdoors that undermine conversation. One is that we get stuck in a kind of purgatory of small talk. You entered one such conversational doom loop on a recent Halloween. Tell me what happened, Alison.

Yes, even a professor of conversation is not immune from the perils of small talk. About once a week, I would say, I have a conversation where I think, wow, I really messed Yeah. I'm gonna switch up small talk there. This conversation, we were taking our 3 children out trick-or-treating. It was an unseasonably warm night. It was beautiful. We have a wonderful flat neighborhood where we walk around and the kids trick-or-treat and get candy. And we joined up with a number of other families to go together. And we knew most of the other families, but there were 2 families we had not met before. So at some point, as we're walking around on this beautiful night, watching our adorable kids pick up enormous candy bars, I strike up a conversation with one of the neighbors, one of these family members that I didn't know before.

Uh-huh.

And it was a man from Ohio. I overheard him saying that he was from Ohio. And so as the two of us became isolated, I quickly started asking questions about Ohio. Where are you from in Ohio? Did you go to Ohio State? Oh, I've been to German Village. It's such a quaint part of Columbus. So I'm using all of my Ohio knowledge to kind of find a way into this conversation. I talk— my husband's from Michigan, so I start talking about Big Ten football or, you know, the rivalry between Ohio State and Michigan, and I'm really going for it. But really, no matter what I say about Ohio, he— it doesn't seem like we can find a way out of it. We're sort of stuck. We're stuck in Ohio.

You're trapped in Ohio.

We're trapped in Ohio. He's not really giving me a lot when in response to my questions. And I chalked it up to a sort of small talk failure. And I said, you know what, I think I'm going to try again with this guy later in the night.

So in some ways, what I'm hearing, Alison, is that this guy might have been a milder version of the blind date you went on, you know, many years earlier. He also was not very curious about what was going on. in your life, he also was someone who was not asking you many questions. I understand that the value that you place on question asking stems from a backstory involving your mom.

Absolutely.

My mom is an amazing sort of intuitive psychologist. And when I was young, probably starting in late middle school, but definitely high school, we would drive home from social engagements and she would often ask us, hey, did you talk to anybody who was a really good question asker? And I'm grateful to my mom for that. It made me sort of pique my interest in interpersonal dynamics.

You've gotten to know a professional matchmaker named Rachel Greenwald, and she has a great term for people who lack conversational curiosity. Tell me about her, Alison.

Yes, Rachel Greenwald, I think she's amazing. She's sort of the grand poobah of professional matchmakers. She started out her career as a matchmaker, and then she had so much success that she started training other matchmakers—

Wow.

—to do this job. And she said to me, we have a phrase for people who don't ask questions. When you think of people who ask zero questions, especially on a date, we call them ZQs, zero questioners. And there's this quote. She says, you know, they say curiosity killed the cat, but on a date, curiosity does not kill the date. In fact, the ZQ Hmm.

So you have IQ, you have EQ, and now you have ZQ.

That's right.

So there's a more insidious form of the same problem. And here the person does ask questions, but the questions do not stem from curiosity about the other person. You call this boomer asking. What is boomer asking, Alison?

Boomer asking is not people over 50 who ask questions. It is— it's named after the arc of a boomerang. And so imagine you're throwing a boomerang, and the boomerang has this arc that goes out and then comes around and comes right back to you. And the structure of boomer asking is you ask a question to your partner, you let them answer the question, but then you bring the focus of the conversation right back to yourself. So it would be as if I said to you, Shankar, how was your weekend?

And I say, oh, the weekend was fun. You know, we went to a nice restaurant and went for a walk in the park.

Ooh, well, I actually went skydiving with Harry Styles, and it was terrific. So you let your partner answer, but then you almost ignore what they share with you, and you bring the focus right back to yourself. It makes your partner feel like you weren't interested in their answer in the first place, You were just asking as a way to set up your own disclosure. It's a sort of thinly veiled way to hide your own selfishness, your own egocentrism.

There's another trapdoor in conversations that might be familiar to many people. I want to play you a clip from the 1993 movie Wayne's World 2, where Wayne and Garth are being interviewed by a radio host about a big concert they are excited about.

All right, our special guest right now, Wayne Campbell, Garth Algar. Wayne's World, Wayne's World. All right, talking about Wayne Stock.

Very exciting, big event. Everybody's excited, huh?

Uh, yeah, it's gonna be a big concert at Adelaide Stevenson Park. Uh-huh. It's just gonna be a big party, you know. We got some great bands coming, like Aerosmith. I just want to remind everybody that there's still plenty of tickets left, but that's no reason to wait till the last minute because it's just a It's a chance for the city of Aurora to do something fun and to put the city on the map. It's a lot of work.

Oh, well, work is hard.

You're not really listening to me, are you? I mean, I could say anything right now, like you're a complete tool, but you wouldn't hear it.

So, Allison, how often is it that people in conversation fail to listen to one another?

Oh, Shankar, this happens all the time. I think this— the reason this clip is so funny to us is because it's so relatable. We have done research recently to show that people's minds are wandering 24% of the time during conversation.

Wow.

And this was based on their own self-reports. So, we interrupted them every 5 minutes in a conversation and asked them, were you listening attentively to your partner, or was your mind wandering? And 24% of the time, they say, actually, my mind was wandering. I wasn't listening. I wasn't listening to my partner. We suspect this is an underestimate because people know that it's sort of embarrassing to not be listening to their partner. You see this happen during video calls, like on Zoom. People are smiling and nodding at the camera even while they're, like, to the side texting their friend or making a grocery list. Because there are these norms of politeness, right? We know that our—

we should make our partners feel For most of us, talking doesn't seem hard. We open our mouths and words come out. But as we go through life, it is usually the case that the people around us are not telling us when they find us boring or irritating or just plain offensive.

When we come back, we'll talk about how to listen to others.

This is FRESH AIR.

How to make our conversations more engaging. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Instagram. Instagram teen accounts' automatic protections limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Teens are automatically placed into Teen Accounts. Teens under 16 will need a parent's permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

Working as a dedicated Fidelity advisor, I always ask, what's important to you? I'll look at those priorities and goals along Alongside your full financial picture to build a comprehensive plan designed to help grow and protect your wealth. With proactive portfolio insights and an eye on taxes, I'm here to help you make the most of your money. I'm Laura Maxwell, and I'm a dedicated Fidelity advisor. Learn more at fidelity.com/wealth. Investment minimums apply. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE SIPC.

Support for Hidden Brain comes from Air France. Air France Business Cabin offers comfort throughout the journey with priority check-in, boarding, and lounge access. Onboard, enjoy menus from renowned French chefs, wines and champagne selected by a sommelier, and free high-speed Wi-Fi. When it's time to rest, settle into a fully adjustable lie-flat bed with added mattress comfort. The art of travel, elevated, because Air France Business Cabin goes further in every detail to make your journey exceptional. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. I have a vivid memory of a great conversation right before the COVID pandemic struck. I was sitting in a New Orleans restaurant with 4 researchers who were in town to attend a psychology conference. The conversation felt like a rapid-fire game of ping pong. It felt effortless. It was glorious. At Harvard Business School, Alison Woodbrooke studies how we can all have many more memorable conversations. She's the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves. Alison, I have a strong belief that authentic conversations must just emerge naturally, and I suspect many listeners have the same belief. You say this is a mistake?

That's right. We often talk about this idea of the myth of naturalness. So many of my students and so many people believe that good conversationalists are born, that they are extroverted and gregarious and charismatic, and that's just how they are, it's their personality. But so much of the work that I've done over the last 15 years suggests that many, many things about conversation are very learnable, even for the most introverted, shy, awkward people who really think that they weren't born charismatic, these things can be learned as well. And one of the most valuable things that we've learned in our research and in my class is this idea of topic preparation. Topic preparation is literally just thinking about what are possible things that we could talk about before the conversation begins. It's not complex. And many people find this idea of preparing for a conversation, especially for people that we're close to outside of work, to be very aversive. They— you sort of have this instinct that I shouldn't need to prepare for a conversation with someone that I'm close to. We'll get together, and I'll know exactly what to talk about, or we'll We'll have many things to talk about. And many of my students feel this way too. They're sort of like, why are you making me prepare for a casual conversation?

And in some ways, we do this to some extent in work settings, right? So we can have a meeting, for example, and there's an agenda that's circulated before the meeting saying, here's what we're going to talk about. But that seems OK in work settings in ways that it seems difficult to do in personal settings.

Yeah, it's slightly more normative, more common in work settings where it's more common to have an agenda ahead of time, or at least somebody has thought about it. Although you might be surprised by how rare it is, even in work settings. I was working with Google a few years ago who had this huge campaign within Google, and the only goal was to get people to think ahead about their meetings even a little bit. Like, they had such a problem with people just showing up and not thinking ahead that they started this huge campaign. So even at work, I think there is sort of a resistance to topic prep, or at least a lack of making time to think ahead about our conversations. And certainly in casual conversations, people feel like they don't need to, and so they don't.

So you have found that topic preparation can be helpful even when we are talking with someone who is close to us. You recently met up with a very good friend of yours, and she had an unusual proposition for you that involved the singer Whitney Houston?

That's right. This story is surprisingly sort of tender and important to me. It is a friend that I'd spent many years singing in a band with. She's this talented, wonderful friend. And we had both started having children. And after she had her first child, she became sick. And it was just— it was devastating. And meanwhile, I had my own baby, so I wasn't even available to go and visit her very often. And so this conversation when we got together felt so momentous. It felt like we needed to catch up on so many things about this incredibly difficult period of her life. And brilliant woman that she is, not only had she prepared topics and really thought carefully about all the things we needed to catch up on together in our limited time together, but she had given each topic a Whitney Houston song title. She's— and I really— it almost makes me cry thinking of it. It was so thoughtful and so fun in such sort of dire circumstances. And so she had prepped topics like Whitney Houston's song Higher Love. She said, when was the last time you took your baby on an airplane, and how terrible was it? Or the Whitney Houston song Run to You. I think it's Run to You, Run to Me. And she said, you know, are you still running? Right? Like, what's your running regimen these days?

Yeah.

And so she had just— it was just so thoughtful and so like her to make— to prep topics at all and to show me that she was thinking about us even when we were apart, and then to bump it up up even another notch and give them these Whitney Houston song titles.

And I'm wondering, were you singing along when each topic changed and each new song had to be played or came up?

We did play some of the songs. And she is the most miraculous, beautiful singer. Due to her sickness, she wasn't able to sing. But I do have an incredible video that I will save and cherish forever where she's lip-syncing along with this Whitney Houston song. And it's just divine, one of the greatest moments of my life.

So no matter how well we've planned and chosen our topic, eventually, you know, conversation subjects can run out of juice.

Your research has found that switching topics frequently Yeah, so we ran these studies, and we wanted to find out what's better. Should we stay on one topic and try and get very deep, or is it better to switch topics frequently? The best conversationalists do switch topics more frequently, but as soon as they land on a new topic, they get deep on it quite quickly by asking a lot of questions.

Hmm.

And so they're actually doing both. It's not a trade-off between depth and breadth. It's like you should be aiming to do both. Hmm. And so, And you should be keeping your hand on the sort of temperature gauge of the conversation. As soon as a topic seems like it's running out of juice, you should be unafraid and confident and switch to something else to keep the conversation fun and interesting and fizzing along.

And what if you feel like the conversation is fizzling out, but you're worried that maybe other people find the conversation really interesting, and so you're hesitant to jump in? Yeah, this is a very common feeling.

We worry about being rude. I think politeness is a major reason that we sort of hesitate and hold back on switching topics. Our fears of being rude, what we find in our research, are overblown. One of the beautiful things about conversation is that you can always come back to the topic. You can come back to the topic later in the conversation. You can come back to it later in your relationship. in a different conversation. The bigger risk is staying too long and stagnating.

So you've created a tool called the Topic Pyramid to help people map out where they are in conversations and where to take conversations. What is the Topic Pyramid, Alison?

The Topic Pyramid is a tool that I realized that my students needed so badly, and I think everyone needs so badly. There are 3 levels to the pyramid. At the base of the pyramid, this is where small talk lives. These are topics that you could talk about with anyone. So, how's the— what about this weather? How was your weekend? What are you excited about? You know, what's going on at the weekend coming up? Those sort of well-trodden, well-known small talk topics. It's totally okay to be at the bottom of the pyramid. In fact, many conversations have to start there. It's this well-trodden ground, especially With strangers or with people you haven't seen in a long time, you have to start there. That's part of the norm of conversation. The mistake is staying at the base of the pyramid too long and letting it stagnate and become dull. And that's when these alarm bells go off in your mind where you say, oh my, we gotta get out of this. We gotta get to something more meaningful. So the second tier of the pyramid is what we call medium talk or tailored talk, where you're moving towards a topic that is more interesting, more personal, and closer maybe to what your partner has in terms of interests and expertise. So it's becoming more personalized. The third, the top tier of the pyramid, is deep talk. Deep talk is what And family members and work besties. This is what we're all hungry for, the type of conversation to have with people we're very close to. It's a sort of unique place of shared reality where maybe only the two of you could be talking about this topic in this way.

Mm-hmm.

And so, not every conversation needs to get to the peak. That's not always the goal. When your neighbor's just taking out their trash, you don't need to get to the peak of the pyramid necessarily. The key here is fostering a little bit more of an awareness of where you are in the pyramid and making sure that you don't get stuck at the base of the pyramid for too long.

We talked about the importance of asking questions. One of the things that you and others have found is the importance of asking open-ended questions. Describe what these questions are, Alison, and why they have such a powerful effect in conversations.

That's right. Our work suggests that asking more questions is like the sort of baseline best thing that you can do in your life to get better at question asking. Just ask more. But there's a lot of nuance in the types of questions that are better and worse in certain circumstances. So open-ended questions invite your partner to share, right? These are questions are like, what's on your mind? Or what was your morning like? What are you excited about lately? These questions that are born of curiosity that invite your partner to share their perspective with you, whereas closed-ended questions, as many of us know, usually have a very distinct answer. So, do you like how this conversation is going? Did you sleep well last night? These sort of yes/no questions are very closed. And so in our research, what we found is open-ended questions are so powerful because your partner partner answers in more than twice the word count compared to closed-ended questions. This is powerful in any conversation, but particularly in conflictual conversations or when you're negotiating and where learning information about your counterpart is so pivotal. Asking an open-ended question like, what do you care about? Or, what's important to you here? You're going to learn so much more information about their perspective and their needs and their motives and their positions than— Will you accept this offer?

Now, you've actually studied negotiations. And of course, negotiations in some ways are one particular form of conversation. And you find that negotiators, in fact, do not ask enough open-ended questions?

That's right. When we studied question asking among negotiators, what we found is that only 9% of turns across hundreds of conversations included open-ended questions. And this is a huge mistake. Open-ended questions are the most direct pathway to extract information from your counterpart because they're going to answer you in a much more open-ended way.

You've also found that it's very powerful to ask follow-up questions. Why is this a good idea, Alison, besides the fact that it's just more questions? Asking a follow-up question that's connected to a previous question and answer Why is that so powerful?

Follow-up questions are superheroes. They are amazing. When we studied 1,100 speed dates, so people going on these 4-minute speed dates, what we found is that people who asked more questions were more likely to get second dates. So their partners were more likely to say yes to them. So much so that if you ask just one more question on each of your 20 dates, you would convert one more of your dates into a yes.

Wow.

One question on each date. And what we found when we dove into the actual language that people were using and the types of questions people were asking, we realized that this effect was driven almost entirely by follow-up questions. So follow-up questions, follow up on anything that your partner has said previously. The reason they're so powerful is because they're an undeniable indicator that you have listened to your partner. Right? You ask them a question, you let them answer, and you heard their answer, and you want to know more. So people who study intimate and close relationships call this responsiveness. So follow-up questions show that you are being responsive to your partner and that you're curious to know more.

I want to play you a bit of tape featuring 2 people having a conversation. This is the late-night host Stephen Colbert and the news anchor Anderson Cooper. Both these men, of course, are gifted communicators, but both also experienced the loss of people close to them, and they're talking here about the nature of grief.

I think when you meet someone who's had a loss, you have 2 options. One is to say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your loss, which is a perfectly lovely thing to do, but if you can share your experience, then they're not alone. Well, it's always interesting to me how when you bring it up, meeting somebody for the first time, and they say, oh, I'm sorry to bring it up, and as if— what they don't realize is— It's like you forget the person who died. I'm thinking about it all the time.

Constantly.

I mean, it is, as you said, it It is, you know, it's one of my arms. I mean, it is an extension of who I am. And now quite possibly for the rest of your life. Oh, without a doubt.

Alison, what do you hear when you listen to this conversation?

This is a beautiful conversation. You can hear their mutual engagement. And Anderson Cooper is sharing a story about his own loss, his own grief, but it feels like Stephen Colbert is helping him tell this story. And it's a phenomenon that psychologists called co-narration, where someone is listening so intently and they're working in tandem in the conversation so well that they're finishing each other's sentences. It's like your conversation partner is helping you deliver the story. They're co-narrating the story with you. And it's a signal of excellent, involved, attentive listening and trust and relationship closeness. And it's wonderful to listen to.

I mean, you could also say, of course, that they are talking over each other. And many of us, I think, were raised to believe that it's rude to interrupt another person. But in some ways, as I listen to this, I'm not hearing rudeness at all. I am hearing, as you say, co-creation of the story that Anderson Cooper is telling Stephen Colbert.

It's very important to think about interruptions in 2 different ways. The first way is on-topic interruption. Here we hear Colbert and Cooper, they are very much in the midst of a deep and meaningful topic, and they are not going anywhere. Stephen Colbert is not trying to change the subject. In fact, he is, like, going deeper and deeper with Anderson on this topic.

Right.

So it's really— these are— they're finishing each other's sentences, but they're also on-topic interruptions, as opposed to the type of interruptions that nobody likes, which are off-topic interruptions. It's that you're switching— you're sort of ignoring what someone is saying, saying, and you're switching to something completely new. And that is— feels so abrupt, so rude, and often sort of hurtful and annoying.

There is another conversational move that can bring us closer to others. And you saw this when you and a friend went to a party hosted by another Can you tell me that story, Alison?

Yes. This was back in college. This character we'll call Dave was well known for being very charming. And a girlfriend and I went to this party and Dave was greeting everyone at the door. And we walk into the party and Dave turns to me and he says, Alison, you're so beautiful. So you look so beautiful. So beautiful tonight. So beautiful. Welcome. Come on in. Come on in. And then he turns to my girlfriend and says, oh, Claire, you look so beautiful. So beautiful tonight. Unbelievable. And we sort of— we say, thank you, Dave. Thank you so much. And we walk off into the party. And as more people are arriving at the door, you hear him going through this sort of flattery shtick over and over. Every person that comes in, oh, you're so beautiful. It's not even constrained to just the women, right? To the men, oh, you look so handsome. You look so great tonight. Everyone who walks through is getting this, the Dave flattery treatment. And it was a real epiphany moment for me. You know, I had known him a long time. I knew that he was sort of smarmy, had this shtick. And at the same time, I reflected and I realized, you know what though? It really did make me feel a lot better. It made me feel welcome at this party. It made me feel confident as I walked through. I went into the party with my friend. And the most amazing thing, later that night, the friend that I had walked to the party with, I saw her kissing Dave later in the night. And it seemed like his sort of flattery, however insincere it obviously was, had worked its magic on my very smart friend.

Yeah. And of course, one of the powerful things about flattery is that the person being flattered doesn't see it as flattery. as, finally, the world is acknowledging what I have long known to be true.

Thank you for acknowledging how great I look tonight. That's how it feels. Like, thank you so much for noticing.

Yes. Alison Wood Brooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. She's the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Alison, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

It's been so fun. Thank you.

Next week on the program, we bring Alison back to discuss a very specific type of conversation. These are the conversations we dread having, the ones we put off, the ones that often end in tears and hurt feelings. If there's a difficult conversation you know you need to have with someone, you'll want to listen to this episode first.

I poked an invisible barb into an important part of who he is, and he didn't feel seen and acknowledged and valued and worthy of care.

Do you have?

Do you have any follow-up questions for Alison that you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience? If so, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideas@hiddenbrain.org. That email address again is ideas@hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line Conversation. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quirrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. For more Hidden Brain, be sure to subscribe to our free newsletter. In each issue, we'll bring you more ideas about human behavior, plus a brain teaser And a moment of joy. You can sign up at news.hiddenbrain.org. That's news.hiddenbrain.org. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

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