2: Flip The Switch - Athletic Mindsets And Sports Psychology w/ Michael Ceely

Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast where we talk about people's passions and hope to inspire you to your own. We also answer the question, what if you could just add 1% more meaning to your life every day for the next year? So join us on this Meaningful Revolution. I'm your host, Shawn Butner, certified High performance Coach. And we have a really great episode for you today. So let's get into it. Today we are talking with Michael Seeley. He's a licensed psychotherapist and owner of Seely Counseling out of Berkeley and Florida. Right now, he also serves clients in Florida at the Men's Counseling Florida and Wisconsin and Madison Online Therapy. He's really passionate about mental health. He's the founder of the Men's Therapy Directory, a website dedicated to helping men access counseling resources. He's also a former competitive cyclist and during his cycling career, he had won two state titles and twice went to Olympic trials. So aside from his counseling practice, Michael provides mental performance coaching to athletes. So, Michael, welcome.

Hi Sean, great to be here.

Today we are going to be talking about athlete mental health and performance. And so I'm really excited to get into this topic with you. So first, could you is there anything that I missed in the intro that you'd like to add or how could you really tell us how you got into athletes, mental health and performance?

Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show. Really excited about your podcast here and hopefully can contribute some value. To answer your question, I have been an athlete my whole life and I, you know, I got into psychotherapy as a profession and in doing so I realized that I really had an ability to work with athletes because, well, that's a lot of my background. And so I got really interested in first in mental performance for athletes, how athletes can be take two athletes who've trained exactly the same, you know, similar backgrounds, one in the key moment like chokes and doesn't quite deliver, the other one does or certain athletes will have will be burned out or go into slumps and others won't. Found it really fascinating and trying to find the reasons why that happens. And then in doing exploring mental performance, I also got interested in just overall athletes mental health so that when athletes, you know, they're not immune to depression or anxiety and it's, I got fascinated in how that manifests in athletes because athletes can really use their sport to kind of COVID up some of those, those issues. So it's like a positive coping mechanism sometimes for people, but it can also mask some, some depression, anxiety symptoms. That maybe need to be treated. So, yeah, you know, my background, athletics. I just love sports, and so that's the population I really enjoy working with.

Right on. So I'm curious then, was there a particular moment in your life that really set you down this path, or is there a particular time where you noticed it in a client or someone out in the world where it really was like, oh, I really need to, like, settle in on this?

Yeah, I think we. We had talked about this to us before. When I was 15, I got sent to therapy by my parents because my parents were getting divorced and they said, go to therapy. And I was pretty reluctant. And, you know, thankfully I had a great therapist. And at that time, I was getting really involved in bicycle racing. Just starting to do well, just really enjoying it a lot. Doing. Doing well. And this guy really helped me with my performance in. In cycling, and not only that, but also in my overall mental health. So he gave me really, like, a lot of education about psychology and really helped me up my game in my sport. He was. He pointed out how I was holding myself back and playing it safe. And it was. He was very direct, very honest, very down to earth, and I really appreciated that style. I think that planted a seed, actually, for me to kind of follow in his footsteps later on because it was such a powerful, positive experience that. That I got into it as a profession. So that was really the start of it, was being fortunate enough to be involved with the therapist early on. And, yeah, that's kind of the start of the whole. Whole journey for me. Wow.

Okay, that's awesome. So I'm curious too. Like, did you think you were going to be a professional athlete at that time in life and you were pursuing that, or did you, after that experience think, like, oh, I want to get into therapy and try to meld these worlds?

At the time, I was very much set on becoming a professional athlete. Okay. I, you know, I didn't do so well in high school. I kind of sacrificed that. I traveled a lot and raced a lot. And, you know, maybe in my back of my mind, subconsciously, I thought about becoming a, you know, a psychotherapist later on. But at the time, I was very much set on not going to college and just like, really pursuing bicycle racing professionally. Yeah.

Awesome. Okay, cool. So could you maybe talk a little bit about the transformation that you had? And, like, so that was the beginning, like, the seed of where you started to really get interested in this topic. But what do you hope you can give to other athletes and other folks that you help through your practice and maybe, yeah, some nuggets that, that you learned along the way.

Yeah, well, I mean, there's the obvious, you know, training from grad school and all that, all that good stuff, life experience. I think also, you know, I've stayed in touch with the bicycle racing scene my whole life. So I've followed some high level athletes, local athletes, who have had some mental health issues, mental performance issues. So I've seen what works and what doesn't work. And so what I try to deliver to my clients is just my experience, my own passion for the sport. And I also want to provide them with education too. That's, I think that's really important. Sometimes what's missing, say from counseling or sports psychology is really educating the client a lot, assigning, reading, being more transparent about the process. I think that can be really helpful too.

Awesome. Okay, cool. So I'm just curious then, like with this education and really helping people along the process, have there been any like, unexpected opportunities that might have helped you in other areas of your life from studying performance and athletes and mental health?

Oh, certainly. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, I would say so. I mean, I run my own business. You do too, but you know that sometimes there's that negative self talk that comes up. So if you're not seeing results, you're putting in the effort, putting in the work, but you're not yet seeing the results. Similar thing can happen with athletes too. So I think I've learned how to control my negative self talk. I don't try to, you know, stifle it or smother it. I realize it's a natural human reaction that we all have negative self talk. And so what I do is I, you know, I, I catch it as it comes up, have compassion for it actually, and go, okay, I get it. I'm concerned, like I'm interested, I'm passionate, and I kind of give it a reframe and then I instill the positive thinking as an antidote to that. So everything I've studied in, in sports and in psychology, I apply it. You can apply it to really anything in your life, to relationships too. Right. So if you're mad at your significant other, you can watch the self talk going on there, right?

Yeah.

And so I think it's a lot of just self awareness, of just being aware of how the human brain is wired. It's wired by default to look for problems and look for negativity. So that if you're able to observe that phenomenon and, and understand the purpose for it, it's more of a survival mechanism and move beyond that. A lot of all that self awareness comes in handy in. In times of challenge in your life and really any aspect of your life.

Yeah, totally. And as a high performance coach. So we ideal a lot with mindset. So.

Yeah.

Curious. Maybe with the population of athletes that you work with and maybe other areas of your life, are there common like phrases of self talk or categories of self talk that aren't so negative, that tend to trip people up or they're. They're ones that people or. Yeah, we'll start there. And then I have a couple other.

So you're asking like categories of negative self talk, like degrees of.

So it might be like, you know, I, I deal recently with a lot of like, I'm too old to change careers, you know, so it's. I'm like ultimately it's a feeling of not being enough and it shows up in age or experience or place they are in life or, you know.

Right.

You can name it, but it's ultimately like I don't feel worthy enough to make this change.

Right.

Do a lot of work with that, but maybe there's a couple others like that that might.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, aside from giving you more and more examples, I would say breaking that down, what self talk is, it's a manifestation of a belief.

Okay.

So. Right. So the belief is first and then it manifests in self talk. So you hear the self talk in your head and you take that. You don't necessarily question the belief on which it's founded. Right. So I work in the style of cognitive behavioral therapy and what we try to do is get to the root of that so that you say, okay, one way you could do it is you could just counter give education around negative self talk, normalize it, and then counterbalance that with positive self talk. That certainly works if you want to get deeper and this goes maybe more into psychotherapy as opposed to performance coaching. Yeah. So you'd want to be, you know, be mindful of that. But what I do, at least in my psychotherapy practice, is getting more to the core beliefs. Right. So what would you have to believe to say that you're not worthy of this? Or what would you have to believe to fall into the imposter syndrome thing? Or what would this, this self talk that you're articulating right now? Where. What would you have to believe to make. To actually say that? Right. And sometimes it's. It's really simple, sometimes it's complex. It gets into family Issues. But depending on the, so the, the need or the goal of the client. Right. If the client just wants to improve their performance, you may not have to get that deep house cleaning. Right. You could just give them some education around negative self talks and then, then give them positive self talk to replace it. Or depending on the service that you're providing, you could do psychotherapy with your client and then drill down to some of those core beliefs. And that usually takes a little more time. So oftentimes athletes will want, they'll have a competition coming up like, hey, I'm really feeling off. You don't have time to really get into the core, core beliefs. You might be able to visit a couple of them, but you want to be mindful of not opening up a can of worms, for lack of a better way to describe it. Right. So, you know, always having the goal of the, the client in mind, what do they want to achieve? And so, you know, the tendency for me as a psychotherapist is I can see some of these things that I could do with the client, but is that, is that really going to be helpful? Do they really need to explore, you know, some of the deeper stuff?

So awesome. Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting because you're a therapist and, and a coach and we had a, we did a talk a while back about the difference between coaching and therapy, which is I thought really, really fun and really showed the difference between the two. We won't have to hash that out today. But it's pretty interesting that, you know, because I think what you're talking about too with the psychotherapy is you're trying to like something happen or there's a belief that happened in the past that, that you're trying to really get at to help them right now make better choices when they need to perform at that race in that example. Or it could be like that kind of like future envisioning or additive type of thing where you're trying to get them in the most positive performant mindset to have them perform. So I was just curious, like when it comes to like self talk and we maybe make that a little bit more neutral, are there things that really help performance in like just developing a more positive mindset? If we're going to keep in mind where we want to end up, you know, where are we trying to get with that positive self talk, positive mindset. And in essence, positive beliefs start with mindsets and that first maybe.

So there's, if you want to think about kind of like the mind or thinking Like a muscle. So the more that you repeat something, the better you get at it, right? Yeah. Be it good or bad. So with athletes I work with, and even with my therapy clients also, I do a simple exercise, which is I have them start the day with three things that they're grateful for. And I. I do this every morning. Also, I get a, you know, cheap little notebook the night before. I write the next day's date, I write 1, 2, 3, and I write down three things I'm grateful for. As simple, as basic as that is, it starts rewiring the brain to start looking for more positive things and not obsessing so much about the negative things. So if you can. You know, typically people are thinking negatively, like, right in the morning. This. Most people are a little bit grumpy. Maybe they haven't had their coffee yet, and they're thinking, oh, I got this problem today. I got this problem today. So if you can start the day with kind of like a positive mental coffee, if you will. Right. We were writing down gratitude at first. It's kind of weird. Like, at least when I first started doing this four years ago now, it felt almost kind of phony. Like, this is silly, of course I'm grateful for this, grateful for my health, etc. But when you start doing it for a couple weeks, you really notice something start to shift. And what you really notice is if you skip it for a couple days after doing it for a while, you go, God, my mood is off. Like, oh, that's right. I haven't been doing my. My morning gratitude. Another thing you can do is double down on it and then also write three things that you appreciate about yourself, three things about you that you're proud of. Which we're not really encouraged to do that. We're encouraged to be humble. Like, oh, you know, I. Yeah, it was nothing, right? So this is kind of like your own personal brag to yourself. And you start the day like that. And it really builds that. Those positive mental muscles, right? So that even you can catch yourself maybe falling into negativity. And if you've been doing your gratitude journaling for a couple months, they say it takes two months to start a new habit, make it automatic. You can start to use some of that positive mental muscle to catch yourself falling into negativity and remind yourself of gratitude and what you appreciate about yourself.

Awesome. I love that. And I think to add onto it, something that I heard and want to highlight is, you know, when you mentioned when you were starting this for yourself and how it Seemed kind of silly or kind of like, yeah, you know, I. I know I'm grateful for this. My practice as a coach. I'm always listening for that with folks because it's such a, like, flippant. Not heart, but you're not in your heart when you say something like that, you know? And I think a lot of what those gratitude stuff and personal development and the exercise you were talking about, it's all about getting into your heart a bit more to feel the gratitude instead of just checkboxing, like, oh, yeah, I should be grateful that I have a house, that I have a good job or a career that I love. I have people and friends, you know, like, it's one thing to say it. It's one thing to really connect with it. And I think that's a really. That's the power of this technique and habit you're sharing. So, so important. I'm super stoked that you shared that.

So. Yeah. Thanks. Well, it makes me think about what you just said, like, getting in. Into your heart, right there is. There's a power of getting out of your head and into your heart. It really activates kind of your full being, which can help you in decision making. A lot can just help ground you. So I'm glad you brought that up. You can actually even feel it, too. So, like, at least for me, when I. When I do the. The gratitude, I feel, as corny as this may sound, but like, some kind of warmth in the heart area. So believe in chakras and stuff like that. Maybe there's something going on there. But, yes, it's a good point to bring up The. The brain, the head is. Is a great tool, but the heart is also a great tool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100. And being someone that I, I think, tended to stay away from emotional anything like growing up, language or, you know, for me, my gratitude practices. Like, I put my hand on my heart to help feel. Feel that warmth, and it seems really corny. And, like, I'm usually looking around to make sure people aren't around, but, like, you know. Yeah, it's the things that we do when people aren't watching that that can be the most impactful. I'm curious then, if you have anything else to say on mindsets before we move on to the next general structured question.

There's always, always more to say, Sean, but let's forge ahead. Yeah.

Okay. Let's put that horse to rest. Okay. On your journey of studying performance and mental health and athletes, what is maybe a, like, low moment or dark thing? That came up, that came up for you as you were learning this, that you learned from. Because I think as much as there's like, you know, a bunch of great things that come out of it, you know, the journey is always tough. There's always some type of struggle. And just to honor that real quick, is there anything that maybe comes to mind?

Well, I mean, aside from just in learning about psychology, getting my master's in psychology, counseling psychology. At the time, it was encouraged that the students do their own therapy. So I went to a therapist. And, and so during that, during that time, I was not only, you know, dealing with grad school stuff, learning that, but also doing some, some therapy so that, you know, some stuff that gets uncovered. I won't get into details, but it's. It's like that, that house cleaning kind of thing. Like, oh, there's that thing. Ah, I haven't thought about that in 30 years. Right. So again, it's like. It's like a can of worms. Do I open up that can of worms or not? Is it going to be helpful? And sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But I opened up a couple of cans with my, my therapist. He was great, really helped me. So I wouldn't say really dark times, but like challenging and difficult. That stuff that I wasn't really expecting to. To deal with, and I had the proper guidance to deal with it. So that was really helpful. But nothing like really dark or, you know, terrible. It was more just like little scary. A little bit scary stuff was going on. Handled it. But yeah, it was a journey for sure.

I'm curious then too, like, do you think you would have opened those cans, as you call it, by yourself, or did you need that structure of that relationship?

I think those cans of worms would have manifested themselves in behavior later on in life anyway.

Okay. Somewhere.

Yeah. I think that, you know, they say it's bad to suppress or repress things sometimes it's. It's maybe even okay to do that. Right. The thing is, like, is. Is there something that, like a can that needs to be open that keeps manifesting itself in. In bad behaviors? That would be the question. Right. So to answer your question, I would say that there was enough stuff or house cleaning I needed to do so that things wouldn't manifest in. And some bad behaviors later on in my life. That's. That's what I believe. I can't really prove that, but that's kind of my feeling.

Okay. Right on.

Yeah.

I'm guessing. And maybe this is just another we'll See where this question goes, because it came to me. So, like, how do you. If you're someone that's going about in life or you're an athlete really trying to get into the game and, you know, get to the top of. Of what you do, how do you self identify that maybe you have. You're dragging around some cans, you know, tied around your waist, and they're banging and leaking everywhere. How does someone by themselves maybe raise their hand and say, you know what? I need some sort of coach or some type of therapy or guidance to get to that next level.

Yeah, I think, unfortunately, it comes down often to an athlete being in, I'll call it like a performance crisis.

Okay.

We saw this kind of recently in the Olympics with, let's see, Naomi Osaka and the tennis player Simone Biles, the gymnast, where they were, like, literally paralyzed, kind of had to drop out. So sometimes it will be that sort of performance crisis where an athlete finds themselves in a slump and they're like, I need to do something, because I got no answers here. I don't know what's going on. There may have been red flags or indications before that, but athletes are really good at toughing it out and sometimes being in denial. I'm fine. I got this right. Another athlete comes to mind. Kevin Love of the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball had a panic attack on. On the court. On court in the middle of the game and had had to leave and go to the locker room. So that was. That was how he got help. So oftentimes it can be that. That moment where it's like, all right, like, big drama, but hopefully, you know, with more education and normalization of mental health, that athletes can get help sooner and they realize, like, God, my anxiety level is really way too high here. Maybe I should be proactive and check it out. So hopefully that will start happening more.

Awesome. Yeah, definitely. Like. Like having those types of indicators where, I mean, those seem, like, almost really obvious. So I'm curious, maybe on the other side, too, like, how does maybe an average cyclist or an average football player, basketball player, who maybe doesn't have a lot of can of worms, then go about and get invited into this process of mental health?

Yeah. So it'd be. So we've been talking more on the, like, the mental health side of anxiety, depression. So say if someone in baseline is doing relatively well, but maybe they want to up their performance, they think that they can. They're maybe plateaued out. They're feeling like maybe stale or something like that. Hey, I could be doing better. I've changed my training, I've changed maybe my diet, I got a new coach. I'm still not progressing the way I want or maybe I'm doing great and I want to do even, even better. Right. So we're looking at more of like the, everything is basically fine, but an athlete maybe wants more performance. The way in there is again more of like the education there is. There's been this, this history of like the mental game doesn't really matter in sports. But more and more sports psychologists are being hired full time on professional teams. Like pretty much every major sport has a sports psychologist on staff and that's how important that mental aspect is. So I think that the, the gateway in for a lot of athletes is just the normalization of mental performance and that some of the, I mean the best players in the world in every sport have worked with sports psychologists or some sort of, you know, a mental performance coach. So normalizing it, providing more education on it, noticing you know, a patterns of say a season of an athlete where typically start off really excited, there'll be some good performance, there might be a little downturn and just looking at like, it doesn't have to be that way. You can be performing at a higher level much more frequently. There doesn't need to be those slumps or downturns. You just have to know how to pace yourself, know about positive self talks and a lot of, you know, basic stuff.

Got it. So it sounds like what I'm hearing is like if your results aren't super consistent, sports psychologist or coach can really help you with that mental game to help you get a little bit more consistent results versus just how you feel in the moment that day. Whether, you know, maybe the chicken you ate for lunch is now causing you to slow down or whatever. Okay, that's awesome. And of course education around it all too. Like, I mean, yeah, remember going through sports in high school and like that was the furthest, you know, from anyone's mind or it might have been used against us in weird ways.

Yeah, it would just be nice if in, in coaching certifications they had a lot more of mental health psychology that folded into the curriculum. That's getting better, but it's still a lot of lack of education around that. So I mean, we've been talking about athletes, but we should probably talk about coaches a little bit too depending on the type of sport that you're playing. If you're doing a team sport, especially if you're younger, the coach really is the person who sets the tone. If it's okay. To talk about mental performance. So I think it would be great if coaches had a lot more of that kind of training that they could impart onto their athletes. That would be great, too.

100%. I mean, this concept is bringing up a memory of. In sixth grade, I was on a soccer team, you know, the, like, district soccer team with some of my friends. And probably one of the best coaches I ever had was this guy, Coach Herb. And, like, his whole focus was, let's just have fun. We'll focus on the fundamentals and, like, you know, oh, you missed that shot. Laugh about it, you know, try. Try it again. You know, he's very, very chill, I guess would be a good scripter. And that season we went undefeated. We were the only team to go undefeated. Next year, we switched coaches. We had a yeller who was always screaming at you, and it was such a, like, contrast. And how I felt during the game, how I thought during the games, I. I couldn't notice. Thinking back, like, really shifted. I'm curious, like, do you have any really good coaches that you've had that have really helped elevate you outside of. You know, you mentioned that therapist earlier that did help you with some of your supports.

Yeah, you know, unfortunately, Sean, I never really did. And that's one of my regrets in my career is I never, never hired a coach. I had a couple coaches. I went to the Olympic training center a couple times in Colorado Springs and had coaches there, but that was more just the coaches that were assigned to, like, a group of cyclists. But I never really had. Yeah, I never employed a coach. I had casual kind of coaches here and there, but nobody really that was. Had a full program for me. I just, you know, I did my own training based on what other people did. So I think the physical part, I had dialed pretty good. My training was always good there. But it would have been great to have that. That mental coach on the side as well. That's something I didn't have. So that's one of the reasons why I do what I do, is that that was missing for me. I'd like to provide that for people because I know how much. At least I think it could have helped because there's certainly times of burnout and things like that that I went through that. I don't know, I didn't really have to go through.

Right on. But that's a pretty. Like. I didn't really realize. I just assumed you had coaches, so. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, I. You know, I wish I. Yeah, I Wish I would have had more. I had really some of the best. You know, I would say coaching was from a couple of older cyclist kind of mentors that had kind of a natural coaching tendency to them. They weren't actually coaches, but they would say, you know, a couple things still stick in my mind, like real simple stuff like, hey, you're just as good as that guy. You should. You should do this race. Right. Something as simple as that. And like, wow, if he thinks that, right. He's my. He's my mentor. Like, he's. He's cool. It must be true, right? It was just words, but it went a long way. I think that's, again, getting back to coaches, the power of your words as a coach, especially younger athletes looking up to you. Wow. I mean, the responsibility, the impact, like, please, coaches out there, if you're listening, be aware of that.

Right. Yeah, I love that. You know, and that very little correction. And it goes back to hitting a maybe identity belief of. Yeah, you're good enough to show up and do that. Just a little check whether you believe that or not. But that reassurance can be such a powerful thing.

Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say identity. I mean, that's another great keyword get into if we had more time, but that is huge in sports, business, in life in general, is that if, like in that example of, say, an older mentor cyclist said, hey, you're just as good as that guy. It was this. It was almost like a false belief. Like, I just took it as, oh, well, it must be true because this guy is so great. Right. So it was like kind of an instilled belief into me. But that's the power of belief, right?

Yeah.

And the power of identity. Oh, my. My identity has now shifted because this must be true. Yeah, identity is huge. Yeah, Right on.

Yeah. We could do a whole hour on just identity about what's coming up in my head. So I'm curious, then, you had some really good mentors. Is there anything else maybe you learned from them? And that I was going to ask you about people you've mentored and things that you really stood out for you in that process. Because that could also teach us kind of the power of what you do and. And why it's so. You're so connected to it, you know, because it's all about relationships.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, mentors are. I think it's something that we need more of just in general in society than kind of. That's missing a lot. But like a couple of my mentors you know, aside from this guy who said, you're just as good as this guy, you should do this race, there's another person who comes to mind, a guy named Bob Mayanski who was, he did the, the Olympics in 1988 and he got fourth place. It was like one of the best results in a long time. And he wasn't really my mentor, but I trained with him a lot and so he was kind of a mentor and I really respected him. And he, he didn't really say anything to me verbally, but he. What I learned from him as like, as a mentor was being able to turn on and turn off a switch when you're competing. Where you get into this zone of just, you know, hyper focus, a real aggressive style of competing where you're, you're kind of ruthless and it sounds kind of dark and. But it's, it's, it's more of like knowing that it's okay to do that because it's just a game.

Right, Right.

As long as you're not like hitting someone with a tennis racket or something like that over the head. But more of just like getting, you know, staring down your component, your, your opponent getting, you know, in this mindset of like, no one can beat me kind of this Rocky Balboa kind of stuff is. I think some athletes don't explore that because they're like, oh, I don't want to be a psycho, but.

Right.

But Bob Leonsky taught, kind of taught me through example that you can turn that switch on and then turn it off. So that's something powerful that I learned.

That's, yeah. Such a really interesting thing. There's a guy that I know that was an NFL safety who talks exactly about that where he's like friends with everyone, he's a human being, he gets on the field, the switch goes off. His whole focus is to do his job and do it well and not really think about, I'm going to run and hit, hit this person to tackle him, but I can't think that I'm going to hurt them. Like, this is part of the profession, you know. And so, yeah, I guess as a follow up to that. Is there any other area like in your life and the context definitely matters with this switch concept that you, you're able to, to pull from that, you know?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, I use it in, in my business too. So like, you know, recently I was, I was working on a new website and I'm really kind of getting into the zone. Like I'm I'm really into, I'm into this writing right now. I'm not going to take a break again. Not going psycho or anything unhealthy, but just thinking, you know, reading inspirational quotes by say, you know, Steve Jobs or like Mark Cuban or something like that. Like Mark Cuban has this, this quote, something like work as if there was somebody else trying to take your business away 24 hours a day.

Oh, right.

And it's like, okay, well if I work that hard, right. You know, and so you can turn on some of that, that high octane kind of motivation and drive. And again, so it's very aggressive kind of thing. And if you can use that kind of as like, you know, rocket fuel for short periods of time, you can get a lot done. And again, knowing that you're not going to be working through the night and you know, being somewhat sane about it. But those, that kind of intensity, that hyper focused intensity in small doses can be really useful in a lot of venues for sure.

Right on. So, you know, I'm a high performance coach and so I have to ask this question. Do you find that you're able to flip that switch on for a consistent and long term period without doing damage to yourself or relationships?

Huh? Yes. Yeah, I think, yeah, if you experiment with it and the more you do it and more you'll turn the switch on and off and be conscious of the fact that it is just a game. It's not life. Right. So like, okay, even with a business, like when it comes down to it, if you fail in business, you're still alive and you still have friends and family. Right? Businesses fail every single day, you know, thousands of them. So knowing that when you're turning that switch on of intensity, that you're still really playing a game. And as long as you're not doing that in your interpersonal relationships, like I'm going to get what I want out of this argument with my wife and I'm going dark like, no, don't do that. Right. Like use it in your sport or use it in the business or something and know that it's just a tool.

Right? Yeah, I think that I will double underline that sentiment because yeah, you're right. Like in relationships, not really the best tool. So.

Right.

Use the, the hammer for the nail and not the screw, you know. So as they say. All right, what do you think like the top talent or skill looks like in like athlete psychology, mental health and performance?

The top one would definitely be hunger and drive like fire. Okay. Right. Just straight out like you look at all the top athletes I brought up, like Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban. There's that level of obsession coming from this internal passion or drive. So that, that's the number one thing. It's the number one thing I could give you, I think maybe top three characteristics. Yeah, yeah. So number one is just straight up passion, desire, drive. The second one I would say would be, would be discipline. So just like work ethic. All the top business people, all the top athletes, they have a really good discipline structure where they're training or working. And it can be balanced too. Like they're getting enough sleep. Being really disciplined about your sleep, that's important too. But just being able to adhere to discipline and structure is another really key characteristic. You see this especially in top athletes. And then I would say the third thing is resiliency. So Michael Jordan comes to mind. He, you know, he got, I think it was his second season playing in the NBA. He got like almost a career ending injury. It might have been his first season, I forget, but he was out like half the season with a knee injury and he was just driving him nuts because he was very passionate.

Yeah.

And so he was resilient. He said, okay, how can I make the best of this and not get depressed? And so he did. He went into the weight room and like just did a ton of weights and people weren't really doing that at the time. And he had a great trainer to help him too. But I think resilience is a big one. So it's inevitable in your career, be it business or sports or whatever, that you're going to have a downturn, you're going to have losses, and how do you, how do you handle those losses? That resiliency is what really matters. Because at the end of the day, there's a lot of athletes, a lot of business people just quitting. It's like, oh, you know, had this loss, I just, I can't deal with this. They just quit. And so simply not quitting is resiliency, right? Yeah, simply just not quitting. And then the numbers game, you're still going to be there and you're just going to maybe build more slowly. But yeah, resilience, being able to handle losses in, in a productive way.

I, I love that. Yeah. So I was wondering then, do you think that these are three things that people can actually create and generate in their lives or is it something that you're kind of born with? You know, some people will say, I'll never be a Michael Jordan because he is like the best.

Yeah.

It's contended now maybe, but you know.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think with the, the first one. So again, it's, you know, it's drive, discipline and resiliency. Those are top three. Yeah. I kind of, I vacillate between like that being an inherent kind of personality immutable characteristic, like having that intense drive and passion. And there's certainly people who are like born with that even physiologically that you could see that after a couple weeks after birth. They've done studies on personality traits with, with babies. Like I think it was, they did like 2000 babies over like a 20 year stretch or something like that. And they predicted personality traits after a couple weeks just by observation.

Wow.

And there was super accurate. So they, they call it temperament is the word. So I say temperament has a lot to do with it. Upbringing, of course, things like that. I also think that everyone has something inside them that they're really interested in. They don't have to necessarily be passionate about it. Like that's kind of a buzzword I got. You got to be passionate. It's like, well, maybe not necessarily. Is there just something that you just like something that you're interested in? I think everyone has that. So if you can find that through conversation with a coach, for example, like, what is it? One thing I, I like playing checkers. Right?

Yeah.

Awesome. And maybe you feel like a nerd about it. It's like, no, well, great. Tell me about checkers. Oh, I love, you know, the design of the boards and like they get really into it. So that's your thing, right? If you find that thing, then if it's important enough for you, if you're interested, and I won't use passion, I'll use just the word interest. If you're interested enough in it, then you can get the discipline, you can get the resiliency because you're always reminding yourself that what you're doing, what your mission is, is it's important. So it's got to be important. So I think you can leverage that, that passion in people to varying degrees. I think also some people are just born with it and that that comes with its own baggage too, because sometimes you can't turn off the flame. Right? Yeah.

Okay, Sweet. Then curious. Like, speaking of, did you have any big like, influences on the mental health or performance aspect that you know, you look up to or that have informed how you've built your coaching program or help how you focus your psychology practice that if other people were interested in this topic, it's like, oh, you'd have to like read these three people. Watch these three people. Like these are really the three people to follow.

Yeah, I would say Michael Gervais comes to mind. He's a sports psychologist. I believe the last name is G E R V A AIs. I think he brings a lot of present moment awareness into. Into sports, which can be a really powerful tool. It's a lot of athletes have difficulty with it because they want to go go goals before. But this is more of just noticing present moment, like what's going on. It can really help you tune into things that are working or not working. So I'd recommend him also. Ed Mylett, that's M Y L E T T. He's not necessarily a sports guy. Well, he has background in baseball, but he has a lot of great strategies. YouTube channel's great. I mean there's so many people out there. Brendan Burchard, you're a big fan. I'm a fan as well. Once you start tuning into Those people, the YouTube algorithm starts sending other, other folks your way. Right. But you know, really just positive psychology kind of people who believe in just cultivating the positive mental attitude, positive self talk can go a long way. There's another guy. Check out Impact theory with Tom Bilyeu. Yeah, yeah, I got some good nuggets from him. So you can follow me. Michael Seeley. Got my own YouTube channel, Instagram, all that good social media stuff. So I, you know, I synthesize what I've learned over the years and learn from other people as well. So.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Okay. Then kind of just trying to bring it home. If someone was a beginner like starter athlete, where would be like the one to three habits or three things to do in order to really improve their mental health or mental performance?

Game. Yeah, I think definitely what I was talking about earlier is that that morning gratitude exercise. Okay. Is, is huge. I think just everyone should do that regardless of what kind of performance you want. So that would be the starter kit would be the morning three things you're grateful for, the three things you are proud of, appreciate about yourself. That's huge. I think having a, a planner or a. Some sort of a journal or planner, planning, planning ahead without getting specifics. But you, you gotta write down your goals. Right. And this is. People are always told to do this. They, they'll do it and they'll forget about them, put them away. So part of the starter kit is having not too many goals, but like maybe one or two. Have it written down and tape it to your wall right in front of your computer on your fridge. You're just looking at it all the time. All the time.

Yeah.

That's huge. Then I would also write down a mission statement. So goals are different from a mission statement. Goals are, you know, achievements or landmarks and then when you reach them, you set new goals. A mission statement is something different, is something that you're always steering toward your philosophy. And I have one, I have it framed right, right here in my home office. So it, I look at it every day and it's, I think that's important too. So for, say, for an athlete or a high performer, spend some time coming up with a mission statement and try to make it succinct. Maybe three sentences tops. It's why you do what you do. Right. So why are you a coach? Why are you an athlete? Why. Why are you a mom? Why are you a business person? Why are you a plumber? A lawyer? And it, it has to be some sort of a deeper serving, serving other people. Like a plumber, for example, helps people.

Yeah.

Like if you got bad plumbing, you're not liking life, you know.

Yeah.

So I, I think that's it right there is the, the morning gratitude. Always having goals that are, you know, simple, not too many, and then having that mission statement that's basically the starter kit that will keep your mind on the positive track. And there's a lot of other, you know, self talk exercises we could talk about, but that's more, need some more education on how to really do that. But my top three is what I just told you there.

Okay, right on. And following up on that, if you were an established athlete, what would be like the three, like assuming that you're doing the basics, like what would you, if you had to assess an athlete? Right. So say I'm a little bit Frisbee champion, which I'm not, but. And I'm like, hey Michael, I'd really love to up my ultimate Frisbee game. Like what would you maybe like what would be your checklist to be like? Do you have this, do you have this, do you have this to help take someone that's experienced to that next level?

Yeah. You know, first I want to ask, is there, is there anything that's, that's not working, that's really bothering you?

Right.

So that's. But if we're assuming that, you know, nothing's really wrong and you just want to improve your level. Right. So I would say I don't necessarily have like, like a, like a starter kit for that, but I would say the first Thing would be trying an experiment where we talked about this earlier is doing that, that switch, like that intensity switch, like in your next, you know, Sean, your next ultimate Frisbee game. I want you to pretend that you're playing for your own life or that if you don't, you know, if you don't do well, something really bad is going to happen. Okay. Getting into that sort of that really intense space, trying that out, cultivating that would be, would be something to start with. One thing I do also with, with athletes, without getting too deep on the house cleaning again, is do a life domains assessment, which is like, how satisfied are you in all the areas of your life? So you know, your relationship with your family, your significant other, your sport, your hobbies, and you rate them on a like a 0 to 10 scale. And if one of those is super low, that's going to be a distraction or like a, like a background stressor that can keep your, you know, distract your focus. And I would say, well, do you want to take care of that? Maybe work with a therapist or is there something you need to do there? Because if, if there's something that's draining your energy and focus, even if you're the most focused, compartmentalizing person, like that's going to kind of drift in. Right? So that would be, that would be one thing there too. But I don't really have, you know, for more advanced athletes, not really like a, like a starter kit. It's more of kind of like just tailored. Like personally, where do you want to go? What are your goals? That's the first thing. Like, what do you want to do? What does up your game mean? What do you want to achieve?

You know, I love that. That's essentially what I do as a coach. And I love the call out to being more holistic. You know, sometimes you can get so focused in on the thing that you're all about and doing that you are 100% right that if your family life's not great or you're doing your sport and you're not going to work and you're struggling with nutrition because you can't buy, you know, decent food or any food from that matter that's going to impact your performance. So I really love that. So, okay, then I'm just curious, like, in general, do you have any habits that keep you on purpose or mission every day or week or month?

Yeah, everything that I've prescribed I do myself so good. So I've got my gratitude journal I could almost reach over and show you. So that's that has to happen every day for me. I can skip it here and there, but I notice, notice a difference, so. And then I always have goals posted and my mission statement, those are really the three things right there that if, you know, like when I travel and those are missing, I miss them, miss that structure. Well, one thing I've been really better about is having a very strict lights out, screens off time.

Oh, awesome. Yeah.

That you. Your success. The next day starts the night before.

Yep.

So it's easy to push the limit and like let me watch some Netflix late or let me work a little extra late, it bites you the next day. So I've been much more disciplined about getting to bed nice and early. Getting about seven and a half hours of sleep, which is, which feels great. So sleep. Gotta have sleep.

Yeah, 100%. And I love that. It reminds me too, that, like, you know, after, you know, this recording, one of my mini breaks is to take a minute or two to just close your eyes because we had lights behind here, got the screen light. If you work in an office, you have overhead light. And so a lot of times just like fatigue and exhaustion is just because your eyes are strained. And so that quick reset can really change how you feel during the day in a very significant and surprising way. Like it always is. Like, oh, that was so simple but like, so impactful. So.

Yeah.

So with that, Michael Seeley, thank you so much. I'm very grateful that we're able to do this. Is there anything that you really enjoyed or loved about our talk today? Just to kind of end on a high note, so.

Sure. Your positive energy, man. I, you know, whenever we talk, I always get fired up. So that's just something that you have. I think that it's, it's a gift that you have and you're sharing that with people and I think you're. It's great that you're launching your podcast. It's going to help a lot of people.

Oh, thank you so, so much. I have a whole bunch of notes that I'll have to go through. There's so many good nuggets and it's always, always super excited for people when they talk about the things that they're really into and knowledgeable and passionate about. So I love that idea of the switch. I'm trying to think maybe how I can incorporate that a little bit more and experiment with that because, you know, my life is one giant experiment for all my personal stuff. So we'll see. I'll let you know how that goes. And yeah, there's. There's so much great stuff that we covered today. Again, I am so just grateful and thankful that you're here. So with that man, we'll talk to you soon. Oh, where can the good people find you? I'll put it below in the show notes, but you can sure share it here.

It's pretty. It's pretty simple when you have a last name that's spelled not super commonly. So if you just Google my name, Michael Seeley, you're going to find all my social media stuff, all my websites, everything. That's probably easiest way to do it, but doing a lot of stuff on Instagram, same Michael Seeley, Instagram. Been doing some. A lot of videos there. So.

Okay, well, direct folks that Instagram, you guys know how to Google. And again, thanks, and we'll see you next time, man. Take care.

Been a pleasure. Thanks, Sean.

All right. What a great interview with Michael. So three takeaways from this episode to help you live a little bit more meaningful stuff that you can apply to your life from our conversation is to do that morning gratitude exercise. The three things that you're grateful for every day or you know, that you're proud about all that. So make sure you do that every morning. Write down your goals and create your mission statement. So that's what we learned today. If you would please help out the podcast by going to Apple Podcast us and subscribing and leaving a comment for the Meaningful Revolution podcast. You know, help us make this a movement. And I really would love your assistance there. And you can always go to Sean coach www.shawn coach if you want to learn more about my high performance coaching business or about me at all. So the next episode that we have is all about the power of ritual with my good friend Nicole Sugihara. So make sure you check that out. We talk about a lot of really awesome things there. I'm really excited to bring this to you guys. So we'll see you on the next podcast. Take care.