4: The Power To Move You: Empathy In Teaching w/ James Hultgren

Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast where we talk about people's passions and hope to inspire you to your own. We also answer the question, what if you could just add 1% more meaning to your life every day for the next year? So join us on this Meaningful Revolution. I'm your host, Shawn Butner, certified High Performance Coach. And we have a really great episode for you today. So let's get into it. Hey everyone, I am Sean Butner, certified High Performance Coach. And I am really excited to be talking with my good friend James Hulkman today on the Meaningful Revolution podcast. So James and I go way back to kindergarten. He's been a teacher. He teaches English and has done that for 17 years. He's been an instructional coach for 10 years. We'll get into what all that stuff means he here in a little bit and I'm really excited about talking about his passion for teaching today. So with that said, James, welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. How are you doing, my man?

Thanks for having me.

We're talking about your passion for teaching and you know, we'll get into to that. But could you tell us a little bit about what an instructional coach is, what you do as an English teacher and what kind of initially like got you excited about this topic of teaching?

Yeah, absolutely. So I teach at a high school in the western suburbs of Chicago, just about half a half hour outside the city. Some just amazing kids, great community. And so this is my 17th year, going into my 17th year as an English teacher and then starting my 10th year as an instructional coach like you said, Sean. And both roles are very different. As an instructional coach, I kind of have two primary roles. I meet one on one with teachers and support them with really anything as it regards as it relates to teaching. So I am a, I have a certification in reading, so I have a master's in reading and I'm a certified reading specialist. But I really support all the teachers in our building. There's two of us in our building. Our building's pretty big. If we have around 2500 students, 170 teachers. And so my colleague and I are the two support people. So if teachers want to meet to talk about a challenge they're having in the classroom, they want to help analyze some data that they've collected on their students. They have an upcoming evaluation. They want to brainstorm a way to change a lesson or implement a new idea. I mean there really is no off limits. Sometimes they just want to meet events. So there's really no limit to what I'm there to do as a support. And then in addition to doing that, I teach two classes for the past few years. I teach a class called AP Research, which is a newer class. If our viewers are adults, I'm assuming these are mostly adults listening. Unless any of my students tune in. AP Research is a newer class that's part of this capstone program that the College Board offers. So it's a two year, two course program and it culminates with students conducting their own authentic research in my class and then doing essentially a mini dissertation where they have to do a literature review on their topic, identify a question, conduct their own authentic research, and write about it. And then the year finishes. They spend all year on a, on a 15 to 20 page paper that they send to the College Board, and, and then they do an oral defense presentation. So I teach that course and then I work with a different group of students who have been identified over just some concerns about. They're on, they're on the bubble between are they going to graduate? You know, are they, are they on track to graduate? And so I get the opportunity to work with them and really just be sure that they're getting back on track, that they're staying on track, and that they're having their especially social and emotional needs met, because oftentimes that's, that's a barrier for them, especially post Covid, which I'm sure we'll talk about. Education. Post Covid, definitely.

So, okay, so that's what you do. It sounds like you're helping teachers. You get to teach two classes for folks that are doing really well and might be struggling. So a huge type of. What I want to say, like, you're covering a lot of ground there with, with student experience in the schools. So I'm actually, I'm really curious about this because I don't think we've ever talked about this point, but how did you decide to go into teaching? Like, was there a particular moment where you're like, oh, this is what I want to do or something that drew you into the profession? You know, I'm guessing probably over 17 years ago. Probably like 21 years ago or whatever when you started college? I'm guessing, yeah.

You know, one moment, I don't know, I. Growing up, I think there was just one thing that I knew. Whatever I did professionally, I wanted to make a difference. And so as we got towards the back end of high school, Sean, you and I went to high school together. You know, that just felt like a really natural fit for my personality. I don't Think you had our English teacher, Mr. Kalish, but in English too. In sophomore English, we were reading Jurassic park as part of the curriculum. And I remember there was an entire class period one day where I was the only one who I think had really done the reading in the class. And he and I spent at least my memory, I'm probably distorting it now after 20, you know, what would that have been? 25 years ago? Almost. But I just, my memory is that he and I spent most of the period just talking about the book, just, just back and forth, and everyone else was just sitting there listening to us. But that probably isn't how it actually went down. In hindsight, if there was a camera, we could go back and rewatch it. But my memory was he and I sitting and talking. And I just really enjoyed the exploration of literature. And, you know, just, I think what great literature does, and I think Jurassic park is a great piece of literature. Maybe not a classical text, but you know, what, what, what literature does is it, it gets at the human condition and gets at, you know, the, the challenges that any of us can face. And I, I know for many times in my life when I've been experiencing challenges, I'll think about how fictional characters overcame those challenges or were able to face those challenges head on and overcome them. And so, so for me as an English teacher, that is, especially when we're talking literature, to me, that's what I care about when we discuss literature is how can we use these stories as a way to better ourselves, especially in moments of adversity.

I love that. And do you find that through your teaching that students really connect to that idea of exploring how to behave and act in the world through these characters?

Sometimes, yeah. I wish I could tell you absolutely, Sean. You know, every student who walks in and out of my class is just a change, changed into school. I can't, I can't promise you that, but that's certainly where I, where I try to focus when we're talking literature. But, you know, English, English class has changed quite a bit since you and I were in high school. You know, English in high school was about reading novels, at least in my school. And in our department, it's no longer about, you know, every quarter you read another novel and you write a five paragraph essay at the end of that novel and then you move on to the next novel and you do, do you remember that? Do you remember doing like that, that grind where every night you had another chapter of Pride and Prejudice and then after eight weeks you took the test and you wrote the essay and then you moved on. What English class has become is what we're trying to, at least in my school and in my district. And there's a national movement around this is really thinking about English as a way to do a couple things. One, redefine. When we say text, what do we mean by text? You know, text isn't just literature. Text can be art, it can be podcasts, it can be movies, it can be, you know, film, it can be videos, it can be nonfiction, it can be fiction, it can be short stories, it can, you know, it can be really anything, right? Anytime where you are experiencing a medium and then analyzing that medium, we want to redefine text. And then, you know, how do we make. Our big question is how do we make our class relevant in the sense that we're preparing students for all of the communication skills that they're going to have to do after high school? You know, very few. I think when we went to high school, the way that we experienced English class was it was like they were preparing us to be English teachers in the future. It was like, we're going to read these books and we're going to study these books and then someday, you know, maybe you'll become an English teacher or you'll to be. Become an English major. I did, but most of us didn't. And so if you weren't going to become an English major or you weren't going to just spend all of your free time reading literature, I'm not sure. Other than the critical thinking and the reading, there's a lot of good skills that come with that. But what we're trying to do now in English is be more intentional about recognizing that not every student's going to become an English major after high school. And so how do we help them do different. Experience different types of reading and thinking critically, looking at arguments especially, and understanding how arguments are crafted, especially out in the real world, having them experience different types of writing that are not just five paragraph essays. Sean, how many five paragraph essays have you written since you graduated high school and college?

Oh, zero. I mean, maybe the closest thing would be a blog, you know, which I actually have some questions on that for you, maybe in a little bit on just how. But I love how you're talking about how things have shifted in this new information rich world we find ourselves in. You know, like I studied information systems and how information moves through it, but the inputs are the skills and the writing and the content and the things that you're Talking about videos, podcasts, and all that stuff. So they had super fascinating thinking about how do you survive in this? Because I think if you take a look around broadly, you see that people are struggling in this environment. A lot of us weren't prepared, you know, but there are those of us that grew up with this stuff. And I think kind of discounted how impactful and how, I'm going to say, strange the world is now with just the amount of, like, how do you see the world in 144 characters? You know, if that's one of your lenses.

So.

And I'm sure you probably talk about that a bunch, so. But okay, so to take kind of backtrack, though. So you had that moment talking about Jurassic park, and, you know, having known you for forever, like, I. I feel like. And maybe I'm understanding this a little bit more, that you could have just as easily gone into, like, film study. So was there a choice there or was it just like, I. I'm following. Like, this feels right. Like, how did you. Did you know in that moment that this is what I want to do, or was this just, like a spark that led you forward going into college?

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was that moment. You know, growing up, my dad and I, we would read poetry together, and we'd sit on the couch together and he'd read poetry to me. And then when I was old enough to read, we'd read together. And so I think from a young age that. That, you know, the interest in language and words and really paying attention to how little things can make a big difference. How things. Something is phrase, how something is said. Just an interesting word choice, you know, really, really kind of led me down that path. And then that was what I decided.

Yeah, right on. Okay. Okay. So then I'm wondering, as you've been on this journey, so you make the decision at some point that you're going.

To be an English major.

Like, that's your thing from. I love that you highlighted your dad. Like, what was that poem you always talked about? Was it like the Traveler?

Vagabond House by Don Blaine?

Vagabond. Yeah. I remember you quoting that a lot in high school, which was really, really fun. And I guess I should point out to the viewers now, too, because this feels right. You know, a lot of our time in high school was talking about stuff like this on this golf course that we probably were walking around illegally at night, you know, and, like, sharing stuff like that and having that type of deep connection and conversation is why I'm a coach. You know, there's an episode earlier on in the podcast or talk about, you know, walking with my friend, and this is the friend. So I thought, you know, if you're following me here, like, this is a cool like Easter egg thing, but so make that decision. What do you think surprised you on your journey from, you know, being interested in language and word choice and literature and how it helps you develop as a well rounded human being and. You didn't say that, but, you know, those are my words. Into like starting your career as a teacher 17 years ago, which is kind of crazy to think about when I say it out loud.

We've been, we're old. We're getting old. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So if I'm, if I'm understanding your question, it's how have I, what have, what have I realized as I've gone.

Through my career or think something that like, surprised you about during that process, right? Maybe something you learned about yourself or something that presented an opportunity for you to take that you maybe wouldn't have had otherwise. Just be following your passion, following this feeling that, oh, this could be cool, or was there, I mean, it doesn't mean that there has to be something, but was there anything that kind of surprised you on your study of English, of teaching, of interacting with students out in the world?

Yeah, you know, I, this, this goes back to some of the changes that we're making in, in our English curriculum, which is shifts in the kind of text that we're reading. You know, earlier in my, earlier in my career. And I think when we were in high school, we were reading pretty much all like old dead white dudes, you know, those were our authors, those were the texts. And I think that, that, you know, we, we just accepted that that was what you read and what you experienced and that those authors experiences were what we were supposed to take away about the world and how it works. And as I'm now, you know, 17 years into this, I have become much more reflective about the text that I select in my classes. We are very blessed in our school to have a really diverse population of students, both racially, socioeconomically, culturally. And so, you know, going through, marching through a curriculum where it's, it's the same type of author and they were reading older texts written by the same type of person. We, we've made some shifts there because ultimately we want our students to experience kind of two things. We want, we, we call it windows and Mirrors. You know, we want students to experience texts where they're Looking through windows into new worlds, experiencing things they've never seen before, you know, being immersed in all kinds of times and situations that are new. But then that mirror piece, right where we want times where students can read something or experience a text and see themselves reflected back at them, you know, and I think for a long time it was really just lots of windows. And what we're trying to do is add more mirrors into our curriculum as well, so that students feel like this is not just about these other people who lived at this other time that I can't relate to, but I see myself in these texts as well.

Right on. Are there any particular, like, new favorite books or things that you. You think everyone should read to have? And I know it depends on the person, you know, because somebody's window might be another person's mirror, to use your terminology. But are there any personal books that you found through this process that were a window into another world that surprised, delighted you or informed your view on the world?

You know, Can I take your question in a different direction? Sure, if you're permission.

Yeah, If I don't like it, I'll bring. I'll ask the question.

No, you're going to give me a book. We're not moving on to give me a book. You know, there's no book. One book that it comes to mind. But one of the things that we are working on and one of the things I didn't mention in my little background about what an instructional coach is, is we also run professional development for the district. And one of the professional development pieces that I am a part of is, is this. It's called authentic performance tasks. And so what we want to try and do in our curriculum is to move away from asking students questions in which they can just Google the answer. You know, when you think about. When you think about a lot of tests that we took in high school that was not, we can't say pre Internet, but certainly pre smartphone, pre Google, for the most part. You know, we hadn't. We had to know a lot of stuff. And there's really. There is value in knowing information and. And knowing things you're not. You don't always have a computer handy or it's good to know things. But what we want to do is, is kind of have a meld, right, where we students need to know things. They need to understand concepts and have knowledge on our. On our topics. But then how do we have students engage with those topics in authentic ways where there's more of a performance? So before I go Too deep into that. Sean, can I ask you a question? Sure. What is something from high school when you think about an experience in your classroom that you really remember as being an impactful learning experience for you?

That's a really good question. Let me access the old memory banks. I immediately think of a couple of teachers, right? So I had my physics teacher, Mr. Kaliza. We, I know, I think you, you. We had a conversation about him a bit ago, but just kind of remembering him. So I was super interested in physics and I asked him about relativity. How does this relate to anything we're learning in physics after class one day and the next time we met. So I think there's a day break and how the scheduling works. He had a folder with everything, like basically a student's guide to relativity for high school physics level understanding. But like the amount of enthusiasm, the amount of passion he had for physics, like, he did a bunch of ridiculous things. I remember we're doing, we had a strobe light. He's like on one of those big science tables and he's like, because of how the blinking is going to go, it's going to look like I'm flying. And he was just hopping on this table like a madman. But because he synced it with the flashing, it looked like he was suspended in there. And he's like, isn't this cool? You know, like, he did like tons of like kind of crazy things like that. And it really helped me appreciate science in a different way, especially physics. Like, that was one of those topics too where like the content, like when you understand it changes how you view things, you know, in a weird way. You, like, think about like, oh, like that table is molecules with a bunch of space in it. And that's kind of crazy, you know? So like, I remember that being very formative and very impactful and also being like, if I wanted to get to the stuff that I was really interested in, I had to ask, you know, you had to be engaged in the teaching process. And I think, like, looking back on that, I didn't quite realize it right away, but it did helped me in college and kind of choosing what I wanted to study and whatnot. It's like, what would be interesting, what would be helpful, what helps me see the world in a different way.

So. So a highly engaged teacher who made the learning relevant. And, and it felt, it felt alive, it felt, it felt not like a multiple choice test. Like your mind didn't go to a test that you took where you had to pick A, B, C or D. No, so, so I think, you know, when we, for me, when I think about my instruction and I think about what I want my students to have experientially is lots of authentic opportunities to perform in ways that go beyond just a test, if you will. So, so what, you know, what does that look like? It can be something where we take what would have been a classic five paragraph essay and now we finished Of Mice and Men and instead of giving me a five paragraph essay, we're going to have a trial in class and everybody's going to have a role is going to be. You're either going to be a prosecutor, a defender, you're going to be one of the characters from the book. We're going to have a trial or not a trial, we're going to have a jury and everybody has to do the same kind of critical thinking, writing, communication, but they're doing it to prepare for the trial. And now we're going to have that. Or as we finish To Kill a Mockingbird, instead of giving them a test or maybe in addition to part of a test, we're going to think about what is it that makes Atticus such a difference maker in his community? Like what, what happens to Tom Robinson, even though he ends up dying tragically trying to escape what happens to that town without Atticus, what is it that makes him a difference maker? And then I'll have my students think about someone in our community or in their lives that's a difference maker and go out and conduct an interview where they have to do extent. You know, they have to prepare the interview, they have to communicate and set that up, they have to record the interview, they have to reflect on that interview afterwards and, and really try to convey to this person, I think you're a difference maker and I want to learn more about you. Right? And then, and now they're going to come back and they're going to say how is my difference maker that I interviewed similar or different than Atticus? And they're going to analyze those two pieces, right? So suddenly it goes from just another assignment to something that's authentic, that they have some, they're personally vested in and is way more relevant to them. And they built a connection with somebody and they've done all kinds of great critical thinking skills. And I think that's what a lot of this comes back to is how do we get students to do less memorizing and more critical thinking. Okay.

And it seems also through like experience type model versus a rote regurgitating type thing. Like, if you can create an experience around the learning you want to have happen, that'll be. That'll stick with them much longer, if.

I'm hearing that correctly. Yeah. You know what. What I try when I. When I design my units, and it's not just me designing it, I work with some amazing colleagues, and we work closely to design things. I, you know, I try to think of the question I asked you when you think back to high school. What's something. What's a memory of something you did where you learned something that really stuck with you? And we want to have lots and lots of those types of things. Right. Where. Not that it was just fun. You know, we want students to be engaged. Right. But there's difference between engagement and fun. And even engagement exists on a. On a spectrum. And a lot of times when teachers, you know, teachers, during that evaluation process, they'll meet with me and they'll say, okay, I know a big part of my evaluation is engagement. And, you know, engagement exists on a real continuum. You know, there's compliance, which is like, everybody took out their pencil when I asked them to. Everyone had their iPad charged. Like, that's compliant engagement. And then on the other, you know, on the top end is. Is that kind of engagement where students are really invested in what's happening. They're really invested in the outcomes. What matters is personal to them. They see the relevance to what's happening. They feel connected to the curriculum. And so trying to create as many of those opportunities for students so that not as it. Not just because it's fun, but because those times will come later in their life where they can use those experiences and say, boy, I know I can. I know I can do this thing. That's difficult in my adult life because I've had all these experiences in high school where I had to go out and talk to real people and I had to engage and consider the relevance of what was happening and engage with real audiences beyond. And so I know I can do this because I've done this before.

Awesome.

Awesome.

That's. So. I wish. I'm thinking back, I wish I had more of those experiences to, like from when we were in high school. Like, I think there were some. Are there but that intention behind it, you know, that. That I want to build this for the students, I think is really awesome and unique.

So.

And so, I guess shifting gears a little bit, and maybe I was going to ask you about, you know, what are. What have been some, like, struggles that you've experienced over the course of your Career. I think the most glaringly obvious is probably Covid, the last two years, and a lot of these school board meetings with CRT and all that stuff, which is a third rail issue. But I think it's worth talking about with someone who is in education because I feel like a lot of the things you see on the news, a lot of the things that you see just kind of happening on social media are people really upset about this topic. And my impression has been that it's people making noise but not understanding what's happening on the ground. Right. And how that impacts teachers and students to make maybe something. Because it seems like you mentioned, I think there's been a bunch of books that have been banned in some states. I think To Kill a Mockingbird's been one of them. And you just illustrated a really relevant kind of going back to what you said before, of connecting a character's struggle and how it impacts how you see the world or experience the world and how much personal growth you can get or personal insight you can get about the world from that. So how do you see education post Covid? Is that, Is that even a struggle? I'm assuming it is, but, you know, you tell me. And then how do you think about all the. This crazy school board stuff that's been going out in the world?

Yeah.

Little big questions.

So huge questions. You know, I think a lot of teachers would say that this past academic year was in a strange way, more challenging than that Covid year, because we've had to grapple with students returning to school in person and having spent over a year, in some cases a year and a half in their bedrooms with their shades drawn on their devices. And now they're coming back. And so, you know, I. I'm going to take a rosy approach to what I think Covid taught me as a teacher. Okay. When. When we, when Covid hit and we all went into Zoom, or it wasn't even zoom at first, no one had a Zoom account. It was Google Meet that was free. And then Zoom. I think what, what Covid did for me was exposed on some level that what I. What I had been teaching and how I had been teaching it, and it was not as engaging as I thought it was, you know, from. From me. When, you know, when you're a teacher and you run the classroom, you know, you. It's easy to think, boy, these kids love these books. They love what we're doing. They love these activities, you know, because you always have every class, you've got like your four or five Kids, right, that always have great eye contact and they're super engaged. And it's sometimes easy to maybe think that the whole class represents those highly engaged kids, or at least kids really good at faking. Like, they're. They're highly engaged. And so when we went into lockdown and now we're on Zoom and, you know, we spent over a year, at least, in. For me, cameras were not required to be on. And so most days of teaching was. I could see myself, and then I was just looking at blank screens and names, you know, and. And so just for me, I can't. I can't speak for. For all the other teachers out there, but I think it was a realization that a. Obviously, we can't stay. This is not how learning was meant to happen. It needs to happen in person. And learning is very social. You know, learning is something even for introverts that needs to happen in a space where we can all share in that learning experience together at times. And to that, what I thought was really fun and engaging. When the rubber hit the road and we were all sitting at home, maybe. Maybe it wasn't. And so I needed to rethink how to make things more relevant for students. And now, as we come back and this past year, like I said, I think was harder than the COVID year because we were trying to just return. In some ways, we were very innovative during the COVID time. We tried new things. We trimmed curriculums, we cut out unessential worksheets, handouts, garbage that we used to just give, because that's just what you did at this time. And we said, okay, we're just going to focus on. We have less time with the kids. We're getting less production from them. This is what really matters. And now we're back, and now we can bring all that other stuff back in that we used to do. And many students were just. They just weren't having it, you know, and. And it wasn't just students who were already disengaged with learning. These were our top kids. You know, I. I told you, I teach the. The top AP kids in our school in this research course, and they've. They've had to work to get there. That's been a journey to even be eligible to take that course. And this past year, we were missing deadlines. Things were not getting turned in. And, you know, I said, what's. What's happening? You know, like, I need to understand what's happening. Can we just have a class meeting? I actually said, you guys have a class Meeting. I'm going to go in the hallway, and you talk about what's happening and then call me back in. I want to hear what you have to say, but I want you guys to just talk openly about what's happening and then have somebody report out to me. And so I went in the hall and they had a class conversation about my deadlines and my expectations. And they called me back in and I said, so, what's going on? And they said, we talked about it. We don't know. We don't know what's going on. We just don't care. And we're just not as motivated as we were. We just can't get done what we used to get done. So it's really interesting because they couldn't really identify how my students couldn't identify how Covid had changed them, you know, but their engagement was down, their production was down. And I think in some ways, even. Even with all of. I have told you, all my effort to make things relevant and authentic, I think that Covid highlighted that for some students, like the way where they were doing school, it just wasn't engaging in the way that it maybe needs to be. And that's not just on teachers. You know, we're not there to just put on a song and a song and dance and engage them per se. But the way that we've been doing school and the way that school has been organized for a long time, I don't think it's working for all of our students. And, you know, when you think about 100 years ago, school was really about getting some essential knowledge in students. Then they could go work in factories and they could go really just be productive workers. And really, what. What we. What. That's not where we are now. You know, we. We need productive innovators, and we need students who can think critically and create and produce, not just have some knowledge that they. We can say that they're, you know, like, quote, unquote, educated with some stuff, and then they go out. So, you know, I think there's a lot happening. I realize there's probably 10 different directions we could take that. Right. You know, but I just. To put a bow on it, I. I think Covid, at least for me, it. It helped to clarify what my mission was as a teacher because we couldn't do as much. And now as we've come back to continue to reevaluate, if what I was doing before was really working, if I. Or if I just convinced myself it was working, and then what can I Do more of. To make what we're doing relevant and set our students up for success after they leave.

Awesome.

Awesome.

I'm wondering and I'm curious, like, how did your mission change pre Covid to post Covid? Like, what was that? Was it just getting more focused and realizing, for lack of a better word, that there's maybe fluff in the curriculum? You know, like if you're watching a TV show, you know, there's like the two really good episodes and the ones that at least maybe before all the streaming.

Right. Like, this could have been a two episode thing, but they made it into five and you're like, we could have cut three of the five episodes. Yeah, no. You know, I think what shifted is my how I define engagement, you know, and I think for a long time I was defining engagement really as compliance. Like, oh, class is going really well because most of the students are doing what I'm telling them to do. And so when I, when I shift that definition from, from engagement being they're doing what they're supposed to be doing to while they're creating or they're thinking critically or they are finding connection or relevance and they're. Because of that, they're producing and doing really neat things. That to me is true engagement. And that's not going to be every day. You know, Sean, I don't want to, I don't want to leave you or anybody who listening to thinking that like every day is this magical day of students, like so excited to be there and they just can't wait to come to class and to go to every class and every day is this authentic experience. And that, that isn't, that isn't true. But finding ways to incorporate more relevant and engaging and authentic opportunities for students and then just realizing that just because students are doing what I asked them to do doesn't mean that they're getting the most out of that. It's probably been the biggest shift for me.

Right on. So to kind of paraphrase again, it sounds like instead of just showing up, going through the motions, being classified as engagement, it's finding meaning in the work itself. And I bring that idea, that phrasing, because I also think if you take a look at the economic landscape we're in right now, where there's people talking about the Great Reset or the Great Resignation, where people who had jobs that also had that kind of fluff. Fluff, I'll put in quotes. But really it's like if you've ever worked a job, and I have, I've Been in those jobs where like the value that you add could be done in two hours, but you're on the clock for 40 hours or 50 hours a week. And so you do like the, the thing where like you go to coffee, you do take long lunches with colleagues. Like you're doing things to appear to be adding value because you already got your stuff done or you have. You're tasked with all this kind of BS type stuff at the pandemic shook out because when you're working at home, you can focus and get. You could be more productive essentially getting the things done that you need to get done and then not have to worry about those extra things. I think my impression, studying this, having worked in corporate America for a while, is you have that, the pandemic, it was that moment of what's really meaningful and important in this task and why am I being asked to go back to something where it's less meaningful, it's less connective, it's less, it's not building relationships, it's just you're there because somebody needs you to be there to watch you work, you know. So I think that's a really kind of interesting parallel.

Yeah.

Going out there in, in the world. And I'm not sure if you felt that in your job, and I haven't felt it in my coaching career, but I definitely noticed it when I worked at Walmart before. Apple was a different experience together they were really good at kind of letting you decide what the meaning of the work was and kind of following that. So I really enjoyed that part of that job. But yeah, so I just thought that's a really interesting thing to point out.

Yeah, it really is. And I think disengagement from school or from work is, you know, I, I don't. I think there's a couple ways to think about disengagement in education. It could be that for a long time students, they didn't have. They, like, we, we lowered the expectations because we had to streamline things and we, you know, and, and so now students are being held to a higher expectation and that's challenging. I think that's, that's one piece of it, but I think the other piece of it is students spent a year and a half sitting in their rooms and now they're back and they're like, I don't know how much I, like, I don't know how much of this matters. And, and I want meaning in what I'm doing. I want to feel like this matters. I want to, I want to Feel like this is a worthwhile investment in my time. Even though I have to be here. The law, the law requires that I'm here.

Yeah.

Just like workers who don't want to go back to that job because that wasn't fulfilling on some level. And I don't want to say, I don't want to say one. I don't, I don't want anyone to think that I, you know, our curriculums are just fluffy with stuff they don't need. I, I don't think that's it. But I do think it's reevaluating what really matters curriculum wise and then finding ways to make it more relevant and engaging so students can see why this thing that we're reading or we're learning is going to help them later on. And it's not always just about knowledge. Right. It's about skills, it's about critical thinking, it's about reasoning, it's about problem solving. But trying to paint that image for them as often as possible about why this matters or how it could matter in the future, I think is what it ultimately comes back to. Right. Because if students can understand that, there may be a time where this would be really helpful to think about what we're doing and why it matters. But, yeah, I think there's a great parallel there, Sean. I think that's a really astute point. Thanks.

Yeah, yeah. And again, I think to reinforce that point where it's not that there wasn't meaning out there in the things that we were doing before the pandemic, but I think that moments of big disruption or where innovation happened, or when we reevaluate things, and that the great evaluation that happened from the pandemic across the board, you know, as people redefine their lives, how they're working, how they're learning, and all that stuff, again, is kind of the big idea that kind of ties all these different types of areas together. So that said, when we're talking about how you view teaching and how you view being an educator, because I'm not like, would you classify yourself as an instructional coach, as an English teacher, as maybe a more broad educator? How do you self describe. And then I wanted to ask you, how do you think people that are the top teachers in the world, what, what does that look like to you? What are the skills or kind of the things that you would look for in a top tier skill? In that.

Yeah, boy, I, I work with some absolutely incredible people. And so, you know, it's, it's interesting, like, if you said who's the best teacher in our building? You know, I. I think there's a lot of ways to define best. You know, some teachers are just incredible at building relationships with students. And you walk by their room in their free period, and the room is just packed with kids who wanted to come up during their lunch period and hang out in that, you know, in that space. Other teachers are incredible at designing unique experiences for students, and their classroom is just alive with energy and learning, and students just buy into what that mission is. You know, other teachers are just great at holding students accountable. And then through that high level of expectation and accountability, students rise to that, you know, So I think, like, the best teacher can do all three of those pieces, right? Can build amazing relationships, can hold students to incredibly high expectations, and then can design learning that just is students. It's accessible for students and students. Like, the best learning that happens is when no one's asking about, what's my grade gonna be? Or what can it be? Right. It's transcended that point in which this is about an assignment and it's become incredibly personal to them, or they see the value in it, or they're just lost in the learning. And, you know, you almost don't want to give a grade because then that kid's going to get a C, even though they work so hard and they were so in it. And you don't almost don't want to give a grade because then that's going to. Somehow they're going to take that as a reflection on something that it wasn't meant to be. Right. So. So yeah, those three pieces, I think, are essential to all grade instruction. Right.

And that this made me think about too, like a not related question, but, like, it always seemed to me in high school that your grade really didn't measure learning. It measured us. Like standardized measurement for organizations or institutions. Because I would say the people that consistently were like, in the A class maybe didn't do as much learning as people that were like, B, C range. And do you think that that's true or do you think. I mean, I think learning is very personal and it's really hard to make a generic measurement for everyone. And I realize I made a generic statement trying to, like, express that. So do you think grades are neutral? Do they hurt people? Do they help people? Or is it like, kind of like some people are really motivated by that. That gets them going. So you need to like, say, oh, you're not going to get an A unless you figure this out or learn this thing or other people more receptive to the journey of it. And like, maybe you come in as a D student and you get a B that is almost more impactful. I don't know. How do you think about that? That's kind of a really.

Yeah. Well, we could do a whole another couple hours on assessment. Literacy practices and grading practices have shifted dramatically since you and I were in high school. And in many of the districts, including ours, we've moved to what we call an 80 20, which is that 80% of a student's grade is their exam scores, what they get on tests, projects, quizzes, those summative pieces that they've practiced recursively. And now this is your chance to prove it. The other 20% is on formatives. And so the formative is worksheets, practice, quizzes, that type of thing. Right. And so the spirit behind this is that students are going to practice and be intrinsically motivated to do the practice because it's the end summative that will determine their grade. Whereas I think when you and I were in high school, a lot of our grade had to do with work completion. You know, were you turning in the homework? Remember how in the back of the math book, you remember the. They always had the. Every other. They had the answers for every other question. Yeah, the math book. Right. So you just write those like we're gonna. We're really tricking the teacher that we only answered the odd questions when we had to do one through 25 or whatever, you know, so that. That type of thing is become de. Emphasized in. In grading practices and in our area. And now really it's about the exam. But back to your question, because that's a whole nother. That's a whole nother topic. I1 the thing that's changed, I think student grading or students attitudes around grades more than anything, maybe not more than anything, but drastically, is that all of the grading is done electronically now. And so when I update a grade, students will get a notification on their phone or their iPad, you know, if they've installed the grading app. And so suddenly they can see their grades in real time. And when you and I were in high school, it was like every week or two, sometimes even more, the teacher would come in, remember, and they'd put the piece of paper up with your id, all the ID numbers for the class and the current grade, and you'd go, look, and you'd be like, oh, I'm at a. Oh, I'm at a B right now. Okay. You know, just keep. Keep going. You know, and yeah, you got work back, but it wasn't so instant, you know, so I'll, I'll post, I'll, I'll update a grade or I'll put in an assignment and I'll get an email instantly from a student. Mr. Holcorn, I have a B now. What, what happened? You know, can we, what can we do? Can we meet? You know, you know, whatever. And so, you know, it's constant. And then added on top of that, parents can opt in to also receive those notifications. So grading is happening. It's much more in everybody's mindset, you know, because every update is being sent a notification to students and oftentimes parents who can see those grades evolving in real time, you know, which has, which has pros and cons.

Yeah, yeah, that's such a different concept, you know, do you think the instant feedback is then helpful or is it changing the incentive for the student? Like, the incentive is always to get a good grade, but when it was a little bit murky, you know, when we were in high school, you could kind of like, you're kind of like going around and then you're like, oh, maybe I need to work on this a bit more, Focus on it more. Or not, you know, like, oh, okay, I have a, I have a B. I'm okay as long as they don't really goof up the last assignment in the exam or whatever, you know, like, I don't know.

I, I, I think it's, you know, I think it goes both ways. You know, it depends on the student, you know, but having constant access to grades, being alerted every time there's a grade change is just so different from what we experienced.

Yeah.

Where I think I would go long stretches knowing that I wanted to get good grades, but really just doing what I needed to do. And then I'd get an update every so often on how that, how that's going. You know, I wasn't constantly thinking, oh my gosh, I'm 310 of away from an A now. What do I need to do? Oh, my mom's going to see this because she's also checks that thing like a hawk and now she's going to talk to me about, you know, and so I think that could go either way. Right. Depending on, on who you are. But it's just so different.

Yeah, it's super interesting. So, okay, shifting gears a bit, I wanted to ask you, as an educator, as a teacher, as an instructional coach, who do you think would be like the top three, one to three People that have influenced your career the most that somebody might, like, go get their book or follow a lecture, see a TED talk. Are there any, like three pieces of three people or pieces of content that really come to mind that really help define your journey as an educator?

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's some Englishy people who have. Penny Kittle is one of them. She's an author and she works in, in conjunction with a few other professionals who have really kind of redefined and helped us All, I think, are English teachers in our area to rethink, you know, how we run class and, and that break away from what, you know, what I described at the beginning, which is that four by four, right. Four novels, four quarters.

Right.

Grind through the novel and trying to make class and, and more engaging, a broader variety of skills, broader application of real life scenarios. And so, you know, she's, she and a few others have been, you know, huge. And when we attend different English conversations, conferences, you know, you always try to seek out some of those, Some of those folks.

Right on. Any other people come to mind?

You know, absolutely, Sean. It come to mind, though, trying to conjure that, conjure those names. You know, I, you know, without talking about some of the incredible colleagues I have, I mean, I could certainly tell you about different colleagues who have had, you know, just incredible influence on my ability to think about our role in education that have made me just a better teacher and helped me to put students first and kind of reframe the work that we do. Which at the end of the day is really all about relationships. You know, at the end of the day, like, this teaching stuff is my, my good friend who passed away a few years ago. He was my mentor, Eric Lemke. You know, he used to say, you know, every, you know, some people around here, they act like this job teaching is so hard. It's. This is not a hard job. You come in and you do your best to help build connections with students and help empower them to be their best selves, and that's it. Like, as long as you're doing that, you're doing your job. And I think there's some real truth to that. Everything else comes secondary. And I think since we went to the same high school together, Sean, when we talk about teachers that we revere or that we care about, I think it oftentimes had very little to do with what they knew. I mean, they were, they had degrees and they taught the content, but what, what lingered was who they were, how they treated us, how they met it made us feel, you know, so I, I think that's ultimately what matters.

That's awesome. I, I love, I love that focus on relationships.

Right.

Because part of, I think what helps people live meaningful every day is defined on their quality of their relationship. So I think that's a really good call out. Tying it into the podcast of how are we developing our relationships to family members, to peers, to students, to our management communities, all that kind of stuff. It's such an important skill, and it's such an important thing to be cultivating if you really want to feel impactful. Right. You don't feel impactful just explaining a topic. It's seeing it land with. In your profession, I would imagine land with a student who really gets it and then is excited about how this skill, this topic, this thing is going to impact them in their lives. So on that note too, then, So a couple of people that have influenced how you've thought, and I, I keep kind of laughing because I, I really want to ask, like, you know, could you rate your top three colleagues and your least favorite three colleagues? Because I think, just putting you on the spot like that. I know that, that how you talk about your colleagues, that there's nobody in that second list, but it would kind of just put you on the spot and as your friend, makes me laugh.

Yeah.

So if you're talking to a new educator, you know, what would you think would be maybe the one or three things for a new educator to keep in mind as they enter this profession to make it meaningful, to focus on those relationships, to be impactful. Yeah, this is one of my favorite questions.

Yeah, I love that question. Yeah. Number one, you know, you got to always remember what it was like to be a student yourself. You know, and the times where I've, I've, I think, been the, the worst teacher is when I forget what it must feel like to go to eight different classes every day, have eight different bosses telling you what needs to happen. And, and, and I've stopped considering what their experience could be. That doesn't mean that I don't still move forward with the plan, because the plan's the plan. But, you know, you know, having that, that empathy, you know, the second thing I would say is, is that we don't, we don't know what is going on in the student's life. When a student has their head down in class and it's frustrating and they're disengaged, you know, sometimes our first instinct, My first instinct is to assume, Assume the worst about that student. To assume they're being lazy, to assume they're unmotivated. And I just can't tell you how many times in my career that I've been completely wrong about that. Once I've actually talked to the student and not come down on that student with a hammer. But I think earlier in my career it would be me if a kid was asleep in class or disengaged. I say, come on, you need to step it up. What's. This is not okay. You know, and, and I think now what I've especially post Covid, but even before that, it's more, the conversation is more, hey, is everything okay? Is there anything you need? Because you don't know. You don't know what's going on. And sometimes you think you know what's going on and you don't know, you know, and so never try to avoid making assumptions about a student. Try to avoid making assumptions based on not just their behavior, but their appearance in any way, shape or form. You know, we just don't, we just don't know. You know, I can't tell you. I've taught AP all 16 of my years, going into 17 years. And I, it is not, it is. AP students have just as many mental health struggles and dysfunctional families and personal challenges as every other student who comes through the building. You know, and the false assumption, I know, Sean, you were Mr. AP student in high school. So I, you know, you know, it's, it's a false assumption to assume that because these students are in the, the higher track of courses that they, they, they have great lives at home and everything's perfect and they just go home to a perfect family and life is great, you know, and that, that just, that just is, is completely false.

Oftentimes, 100%. Yeah. It always struck me that that's a whole other conversation we could get in, but I, I don't. People are people and you have to meet them where they are. And I, I love that both of these points have been just empathy and trying to understand other people and kind of withholding that judgment, which I think is something we all would benefit from in this world. And that's, you know, one of the things I work on as a coach a lot.

Yeah.

Just trying to get there. Is there anything else that comes to mind? You know, trying to reach for three, but you don't have to for new teachers. So we have, you know, remember what it was like when you were a student just to have that understanding of the students experience. Don't assume, you know, what's going on in students lives when, you know, their heads are down or anything? Is there any other, like, kind of like, I wish I would have known this when I. In my first couple years of teaching.

Yeah. You know, I be. Be yourself. You know, be yourself. Like what students love is, is like a quirky, like, proud to be quirky teacher. You know, like if you have a nerdy hobby like you and I do. Sean, you know, for years I didn't tell anybody that I love Dungeons and Dragons and we'd been playing since eighth grade, you know, because I, I thought like, oh, that's what will people think, you know, when they hear that about me. And that was just the completely wrong approach, you know, not because there's a whole bunch of kids who play Dungeons and Dragons in class and that I'll finally have a connection with these other students because I'll find, you know, you'll find that out over time. Time. But just be, just be you, you know, and what students need to see, especially students who don't have a lot of adult role models outside of school, is people, is, is adults who are comfortable being themselves and who are willing to share the authentic versions of themselves and be comfortable with that, you know, and even if, even if you're not into Dungeons and Dragons or whatever, your hobby is seeing other people who are comfortable with their hobbies and interests, even if they're not everybody else's, like, you need role models for that, you know, you need role models to be like this. Okay. Mr. Holcorn loves Dungeons and Dragons and Dice and like, you know, Lord of the Rings and he makes these corny references, but he, like, he's, he's okay with who he is as a person. He likes those things. And that's not my thing. I have a different thing. But it's nice to see somebody just being themselves, you know, and being okay with not just liking football and I love football or talking about all these mainstream things.

Right on. I love that, that call to be authentic and role modeling, that authentic ness of just being yourself, you know, I think so many times, one, you find meaning in connecting with people when your authentic self again. But it's also something that a lot of people don't think about is how am I, what am I teaching other people around me, even if I'm not meaning to, you know, there's an unintended consequence of not sharing that. And then you seem like a one dimensional person. You know, people love that, that, that, you know, like you said, not a lot of People not. I mean, there are people that are into Dungeons and Dragons. There are people that aren't. But knowing that you're passionate and nerding out about something, I think people enjoy. At least I do. That's why I do these podcasts. Like, this is so much fun is getting to know folks.

Yeah.

So, okay, tougher question for you, and this is probably my favorite question that I try to hit every podcast, is if someone was. Had some skill as an educator, what one to three things would then take them to the next level? I think it's a lot of times it's easy to figure out the beginner stuff, but as someone that I know, I know you're a really great educator, and I know you're always striving to reach that next level, too. So what do you think helped you become like a. Maybe an intermediate or novice to a higher end? Intermediate or novice or expert? You know, I don't think you. I mean, would you consider yourself an expert educator at this point, or.

No, no, no. You know. You know, Marcus Aurelius said, don't focus on how far you've come. Focus on how far you still have to go. You know, And I. Whenever I'm in that mindset, I'm growing and I'm learning and I'm more humble, you know, when I. When. When I'm not in that mindset and I think I've, like, you know, I kind of get into that. Like, I puff my chest up in my head and I'm like, oh, I've got this all figured out. That's what I'm the worst. You know, I'm. I'm. I'm the worst at it in every way, you know, but, you know, even now, I'm. I'm literally halfway through my career going into this year. I have another 17 years, and I'm starting year 17, so I guess I have another semester before I'm. Exactly. But I just have so much farther to go before I'm the person that I really want to be. And I'm okay with that, you know, but, um. But I think that's. That's like the. The thing, right, for, for teachers and, you know, teaching is. Is. It's an incredible job, you know, but it's. It's a grind, and it can be grueling. And one of the sneaky things about teaching that can be challenging is that every year, like, you spend all year teaching a group of students a set skill or skills or content or knowledge, and then the next year, like, you're back to the beginning again. And the people that are in front of you don't have those skills yet. And then you get them to where they need to be and then you start over. And that there's a blessing to that, right, that you can always then change. It's almost like you get another redo and a redo and a redo. But that's only valuable if you make changes, right? So that's the beauty of it is you always get another shot at it. But you got to be willing to grow and make changes and realize that who you want to be, you're not there yet, and that there's always a better way to do it. And the teachers that I work with who seem the happiest by and large operate under that mindset, right, that I'm not there yet, or I have still have a long way to go, or, boy, we can make this even better next year. And the teachers I work with who seem the most miserable are not making changes year in and year out. They are very fixed in what they do. And a lot of it works. There's no doubt about it. It's not a knock on their teaching, but there's certainly growth to be had and there's new ways to improve things, and they're just not as interested in trying new things. And I think that that will grind you out, you know, because if you're never changing anything, then you're just thinking, I have to teach us another. I have 17 more times through this before I can retire. Whereas for me, I'm. Every year I revisit what I did and I. I like it less and less and so I'll change it more and more and. And it always feels fresh and it feels new because I'm trying to make it better than I did in the past, you know?

Yeah, I love that, that like, growth mindset. I mean, growth mindset, you're role modeling, learning yourself, you know that, you know, it's not static. I think that's super important. And it gets it kicked out of. You're just a gear in the process, you know, like awesome. Are there any other pieces of advice you might. You'd give a novice to maybe intermediate. Trying to get to an intermediate level of skill as an educator other than mindset.

I mean, you just have to have fun. I mean, this should. You should be having fun even if you're tired, even if you're fatigued and you're going to be the. Like it's. The growth has to happen along with your finding Joy in the journey, you know.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. This question usually requires a little bit more thinking, so. Which is why I really like it. So. Okay. Kind of on that. That track, then of have that learning mindset, you know, have fun with it. Do you have any habits that you do as a teacher or maybe just a little bit more in general in life that keep you on purpose, keep you connected to the work, help you find meaning as an educator every day, week or month, I guess during the school year would probably be the most relevant.

But other than drinking way too much coffee every morning.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I absolutely, you know, I. This is not a routine per se, but just talking to people and trying to. The best things that I have done in my classroom. The ideas have not come almost always from other English teachers. They've come from hearing what the physics teacher is doing, what the math teacher is doing, how the special ed teacher is doing this thing to differentiate their instruction for students, and then really just trying to build. Find a way that's like, that's a really interesting idea. How can I incorporate. How can I incorporate that idea into my curriculum? Or how can I take that and adjust it? And I'll give you an example, something that. I don't know how I'm going to do this yet, Sean. Maybe you can. Maybe you have an idea for me. But our principal attended a conference and we were in a meeting and he shared this. This idea of. Have you heard of the five whys? Yes, I was new to me. I've never heard of the five wise. And so can you describe the five why, Sean, for our listeners?

The way that it's logged in my brain. You ask why five times to really get at the underlying beliefs or values or understanding of a particular statement or question or content. Right?

Yeah, that's my understanding as well. And so that is. That is just ripe for critical thinking. Digging into a character analysis of, you know, a character in a novel or really any topic you might discuss or may come up in class. And I'm just super excited to bring that thinking routine into my classroom this upcoming year. But, you know, again, that was like our principal just literally drop that in passing. And so, you know, I'm just always on the lookout for little things that I can incorporate and then finding that. That transfer. Right. Like, how can I take that thing that's happening, that's not happening in English and find a way to bring it in?

So in relation to the question of a habit that brings purpose? So kind of try to tie it Up. So it's engaging with peers and the people around you to gather ideas is the meaningful part. That learning experience is the meaningful part. The interaction with the colleagues and the folks around you that you're interacting with and I assume, students, where are you finding the purpose in your job as an educator?

The meaningful part is that everything that I'm reading, experiencing, listening to, talking to colleagues, I'm trying, I'm vetting it through this filter of. Is there something in this discussion? Is there something in this news article? Is there something in this Twitter thread? Is there something in this movie, in this YouTube video, in this podcast that I could bring back in? Okay, so, like, for example, I have a colleague who does this incredibly well, and she and I often share ideas. And so we are really. We're really into Stranger Things. We talk Stranger Things all the time. And we were talking about a podcast that we both happened to listen to where they talk about. She had just resend it to me, but we listened to it before. They are talking about, at the end of season three, Hopper leaves the note for Elle. Do you remember the end of that season? Yeah. Okay. And they do this, like, incredible discussion about the letter, like, breaking it down and how, like, it's just this really thoughtful analysis of, like, the letter and what it means and what some of the language might mean. And we're like, this is exactly what we want students to do when they discuss elements from our text that we're reading in class. Like, this level of, like, discussion and analysis and, like, energy is exactly what we want, you know? And so we're like, when we get back in the fall, let's figure out how we can use the clip from this podcast as a way to model for our students what we want them to do, you know? So is that like a blow your mind idea? No, but for me, my routine that brings meaningfulness and purpose is to just always be filtering things about in a way that. Could I use this? Could I. Could this make me a better teacher? Could this help my students? Could I take this and find a way to bring it in?

Okay. Yeah. So. So let me see if you agree with this statement. It's. You're getting the. The meaningful and purpose from thinking about how to bring in, you know, you're learning about things to bring into the classroom that will be of service to the student and make it fun and make it really create that experience where they connect with it in a way that's not as schooly. This is wordy, but it's an act of service and how you're viewing the world to bring it back into the classroom?

Yeah. It's a way for me to find every experience I have. Is there a relevance to what I'm experiencing that I could use to help my students better understand a concept, connect more to what we're doing? And then as an instructional coach, because I know we haven't talked about that as much. Yeah. If it's. If I can't use it, is there a connection to something that I maybe worked with a teacher on or I know would benefit a colleague or we could bring into professional development? And so a lot of times I'm like the go to, like, people will reach out to me often and say, hey, I'm doing this thing in class. Do you have any ideas or things that could connect to this? And I'll send them a series of links that I've been saving on my phone or I've just been making a mental catalog of that. I think really connect to that or that would be interesting ideas because it. Because the routine is that I've tried to train my brain to be vetting everything through that lens of could this help myself or a colleague?

Right on.

Okay.

I love that. So that said, my man, I think we're at the end of our hour. We covered so much really amazing things. I really. If you're listening to this, go back. I'll have the synopsis in the notes below the podcast, and I do my little bit after the podcast to kind of pull out the things that we've learned. I really love the theme of this learning mindset, which seems to be really at the core of everything you do, of how do you get better as a teacher, as an educator, as an instructional coach? How are you bringing those learnings to your students, to your peers, you know, building this community, you know, highlighting those relationships. I think we could probably sum the conversation that main idea. But just curious for you, like, what was something that you really loved about our conversation or highlights that you've shared so far today? You could think of one.

Yeah, I've. I've just enjoyed revisiting with you high school. You know, like, I think, yeah, like, in some ways, high school is the same, you know, in. In a lot of ways. Like, you know, for all the talk about how teenagers these days and this and that, like, there's teenagers are teenagers. You know, when you break it all down, I mean, they have different technology and they have different access to things that we didn't have. But in a lot of ways, things haven't changed very much. And then in a lot of ways, they've changed, you know, tremendously. So it's just. So it's interesting talking about that. Yeah.

Piece 100% so. Well, I absolutely love this conversation. Thank you again for agreeing to be on this podcast and just spending time. It's always good seeing you. All right, man. That said, thank you so much, and I'll talk to you really soon.

Sounds good, buddy. Thanks for having me.

You got it. All right, so on today's episode, it was really, really great to talk with James on his experience teaching and the three big takeaways that you can apply to your life that might help you feel a little bit more meaningful each day is to number one, remember that empathy is the key to helping anyone, not just students. In his case, you know, that ability to remember where other people were can really serve you. Second, do. Do not assume you know why someone is. Isn't performing. So you have to kind of ask and, you know, is it a family member passed away? Is it hard times, you know, not to let people get away with things, but to just understand where they're coming from and always, especially personal valent be yourself and to be authentic. So know who you are and how you are showing up every day. Stuff that I do every day as a coach. So that said, if you would really love to help the podcast and join the meaningful revolution, please go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe and leave a comment because that helps us out, helps us get the word out, and that would be great. Second, you can always learn more about me or my coaching program at Sean coach. That's www.s h a w n dot coach. And you can go and explore my website from there. So on the next episode, we have my good friend Dr. Emmanuel George, who's going to talk about leadership as a pharmacist. Right. He's had a really winding career getting into some really great stuff. I know you'll love it. I'm excited to share it with you. So we'll see you guys then. Take care.