5: Know Your Blind Spots - Leadership w/ Dr. Emanuel George III

Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast where we talk about people's passions and hope to inspire you to your own. We also answer the question, what if you could just add 1% more meaning to your life every day for the next year? So join us on this Meaningful Revolution. I'm your host, Shawn Butner, certified High performance Coach. And we have a really great episode for you today. So let's get into it.

Hey, everyone.

Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I am your host, certified High Performance coach, Sean Butner. Today we're talking with one of my good friends, Dr. Emmanuel George. Dr. EG3, affectionately. He's a high performance coach who helps professionals recognize their full leadership potential by embracing their innate gifts, talents and abilities through authentic coaching and mentorship. And he's very driven by his convictions. He's dedicated his life to positively contribute and enhance the world around him. So, like the city, he's from New Orleans, Louisiana. Dr. EG3 has a distinct perspective on hard work, diligence, and what it takes to be successful. Having worked in multiple industries and practice settings, healthcare, real estate, leadership, just to name a few, he's often referred to as a jack of all trades, master of none. By himself, of course. And his primary focus these days is to help individuals like you who are interested in creating the life you are destined to live. So with that, welcome, Dr. EG3. Did I miss anything? Is there anything else? Sean?

Sean, as always, man, you know, you make me sound way more exciting than probably my lived experience, so I appreciate it, man. You miss nothing.

Awesome. Cool. All right, so today, folks, we're going to be talking about leadership, one of Dr. EG3's specialties. As we get into it, I'm just curious, why is the topic of leadership important to you?

No, leadership is so important to me because I feel as though we don't have much education around it. And when I mean education, I'm not talking about necessarily going get a degree or anything like that, where I think those things are useful. I think we don't have a lot of people who are really geared to being true leaders. We like the idea of leadership. We like the idea of being in charge. We like the idea of the salary, the corner office, the hierarchy of me being on top of it. Right? But we don't really recognize the true impact of what leadership has. Leadership affects people, not groups of people. You think your audience may have already heard it, had it said once before, people don't quit organizations, they quit people. That is a true thing. That's a true statement. Leaders can impact organizations significantly. They impact individuals. They impact literally everyone around them. And I think that just helping people to become better leaders, recognizing their true leadership potential, but then also differentiating what leadership is not, is very key that I really try to help people differentiate.

Awesome. I love that. So, you know, the whole idea of a podcast is creating meaning in your life so you can fully live into a better version of yourself. And I think where that crosses over with leadership is we definitely find meaning in the things that we do, the actions we take. We also find meaning in the relationships that we have and build around us. And I think as we probably talk about it, we'll find that that relationship component, because you had mentioned it in your explanation just now, is super important for that connection to meaning in our lives. So with that said, how did you really get into leadership? How did you learn to love this topic? How did you. Is there a moment in your life where you're like, I need to figure this out? You know, what's a story, I guess, that got you on this track to really love this topic?

Yeah. What really started me to really understand the idea of leadership was a true self exploration. Really recognizing and appreciating who I was as an individual and being able to step into those strengths and recognize that I'm created exactly as who I am physically. There's some innate talents and gifts that are inside of me, and it's truly embracing those. I think the culture today has a tendency of helping us to focus on what we're not. You know, you're not tall enough, you're not cute enough, you're not beautiful enough, you're the wrong size, the wrong weight, you don't have the right degree, the wrong background. But I think the reality of it is that we were all created very uniquely to fulfill a role. And I think we need to do a better job of allowing people to embrace that. And I think for myself, when I recognize and I'll just give. A very quick story. I played a lot of sports in high school. Football, basketball, and track. And if you ever meet me in person, I can tell you I'm not the typical basketball build. In ninth grade, when everyone else grew, your boy, Dr. EG3 stopped growing. Back then, I was just five foot nothing. Five. Five is where I topped out at. But again, in the grand scheme of it, I can tell you what I recognized through that season was that I shied away from things. As good as I was at basketball, and as much as I liked it, I. I felt insecurity about, well, you know, everyone else grew six inches over the summer, and I'm still the same height, and I never really went back to it in my last couple of years of school. And, you know, maybe I wasn't good enough. Who knows, right? But at the end of the day, I can tell you the internal drive that I have was, you know what? I don't fit this mold anymore. And, you know, I can tell you that was far, so far from the truth. And when I started to play in, you know, adult leagues in college with a lot of my high school classmates and college classmates, I was able to step into a gift that was free. You know, they started to refer me as the coach, and it was funny. And I was helping them, like, you know, working on their footwork and telling them running plays. And I was on the field, and I stepped into it. Hey, you know, I was a good passer, good dribbler. You know, I could shoot. But at the end of the day, I get it. I was never going to dunk again. It was just not part. It's not part of the cards, right? And in those moments, what I recognized from that basketball was that, you know, looking back, even on a football field, I was always the one standing back, working with the quarterback, learning and becoming a student of what I was working on. And it just allowed me to have a much freer expectation of, like, systems, processes, but then really leaning into who I was. So when I think about playing on the football field or in those early years of college, really embracing who I was and what I brought to the table, that allowed me to step forward in a way that I don't know. Otherwise, if I really would have. If I would have stayed in that lack of mentality, that not good enough mentality, it was like, hey, here's who I am. I'm not changing these other things. So how do I step into the gifts that I have, you know, and really make those better right then, versus whatever my perceived deficits were, make sure my assets were much more than what I perceived as being my liabilities. And again, I always just figured that out, and that was kind of like a turning point.

Okay, right on. So with stepping into that coach position, into that leadership position, I think you hinted at this before, that we talk about leadership, we think it's a really good idea, but there's not a lot of actual education on it. It's more like you're thrown in the situation, you got to use the force. You know, you got to kind of figure it out as you go. Hopefully you don't make too many mistakes, but part of the expectation is you need to get those self learned lessons early on figured out. So I'm curious, when did you start to approach it as a discipline and start to actually pull together things where it wasn't just you personally figuring out how the court in that particular example or in the organizations. I know you led later in pharmacy and whatnot, but was there a turning point where you're like, okay, so this is important, I need to figure this out. I know good leadership will highlight the best in people so they don't have that, that self doubt. But how do I really get disciplined about this?

Yeah, no, definitely what I remember, I remember early on, even through college, having jobs in college and working at a couple of different places. I soon recognized leadership is a team sport. And what I mean by that is not necessarily the person who makes the final decision, the one who gets the big check, the one who has that gold name badge. Right. But it's more about you learn these things through engaging with others. You can sit here and try to figure it out on your own, but if you don't have a level of humility to recognize that you don't always have the right answer, I think that's the issue. I have a phrase if I'm the smartest person in the room. Well, by dog it, I'm in the wrong room if I'm the one at the top of the food chain. Especially when we're talking about complex problems or something like that. Right. Because what I learned was that you need people to refine and challenge you and question what you're doing to make guess what. Sometimes we need to check our own motives and we need to be okay having people around them to just be ask that question of what about this? And you know, I remember early on as a, as a young manager, it was difficult because you know, you feel there's a level of insecurity that you have about man. I don't want to ask someone because I don't want them to think I don't know. I got these people that are looking up to me and responsible and I want to make sure that I appear to be very smart and intelligent and but really leadership, there's a level of vulnerability that's necessary. And you know, through the what I think the thing that was most influential to me was that I had an opportunity to work under a lot of good managers and some not so good managers. And what I do remember was, and I remember saying this, oh, you know, when I wanted to be a pharmacist is what I'm referring to. I remember saying, oh, I like the way that pharmacist did this. I like the way this manager did it that way. Oh, I don't like the way that person did that. So I really was cherry picking these skills. Now looking back on it, that was so influential, right. Where I was literally looking at all of these people and I was cherry picking things that I liked about their characteristics, their personality, some of the skills, and I was rejecting the things that I didn't. So really, through an experiential of experience of just living life with them, I was able to become an amalgam and I was able to take on their lessons. Right. That they gained through time. And you know, again with that being said, it was also the mentorship, you know, being able to ask them questions. So really that's kind of how I recognize leadership as a team sport. That you grow together with other people and you have to be okay with that. Right.

100%. I think that's such an important thing to underline again, that like sometimes the idea of leadership and my job as a coach, talking with people is it's one person makes the difference, one person makes all the decisions. It's a very lonely, isolated type thing where to back up your experience, the teams that I worked on, where the manager was communicative, was collaborative, was trying to make sure that everyone had a little bit of skin in the game, had a little bit of, say, what's going on, were the teams that did amazing things and were the highest functioning. Right.

Great.

So I absolutely love that. So on your leadership journey then, you hinted at this before where, you know, learning that it's a team sport versus it's just, you know, one person calling all the shots. Are there any types of struggles or challenges that you think are really helpful for people to realize might happen or that you overcame that were really formative for you?

No, no. And I think you hit it at it. I think you did it. Incidentally, you referenced when you talked about your individuals you coach and the perspective of leadership is lonely. The reality of it is that is kind of a true statement. So I think it's fair for your audience to, for me to highlight that it is a little. But what it is, it's not that it's lonely because you don't have people, it's that the individuals whose company you keep now are a little different. Because if you work for an organization, most organizations have fraternizing type of clauses or you can't hang out with your team after hours or stuff like that. And it does become a little lonely because as you ascend upwards within an organization, your peer group gets smaller. You know, if we were to think about, I mean, I know I'm coming back to healthcare, but just to maybe illustrate it, when I'm a pharmacist, I have a lot of colleagues, you know, we have a lot of pharmacists that might work within the hospital that I'm in. We may have, you know, what, 17 of them that work to cover all the shifts. But if you become the pharmacy manager, you might, you know, your peer group is now not at the hospital anymore. It's at the other hospital down the street, right. If you go further up and you're now a director, right, it becomes smaller and just the individuals that you can connect with. So I think that is an adjustment for yourself as you ascend upward. But it's also especially to speak to those leaders who get promoted within the same team. Yes, your function changes, but then also what happens is that team that yesterday you were their colleague and today you're their boss, their relationship with you changes as well. Because the one thing that I had to recognize and that was being a pharmacist, a pharmacy manager, regional supervisor, professor, associate dean, whoever is your subordinate group, whoever they are, there's always going to be a sense of tension there because being the leader, being the boss, being the supervisor, you have a level of power that you need to recognize that again, there's going to be a little bit of, you know, hesitancy between the relationship just because again, your decisions, your voice as the leader, means way more than it did before that promotion. And it's being able to recognize that and not take that for granted. And I know I get like you, I get to work with a lot of great young leaders. And that is sometimes a struggle that they have people that were friends the day before, they get promoted the next day, and they're like, well, why do they treat me different? And it's like, well, because of that tension that's there, you now hold a power over them. You may not wield it, but it's still there though, right? You determine whether or not they get hours, you determine their salary, you determine their grades. And that tension has to be recognized. But again, you have to wield that power with genuine humility because again, it.

Does affect people 100%. I know when I worked at Walmart Corporate, one of the leadership practices, if you got went into management, they purposefully moved you to a team where you didn't know anyone to avoid a lot of that heartburn as you get promoted and everything changes. So I'm curious then, in those types of situations, how can you soften that tension? Or how do you directly address that tension between people that you're leading or people that are looking up to the leader?

No, definitely. So I'll say this. I agree with the practice that you experience. You should get promoted somewhere else. I know that you may have grown up with that team or you feel most comfortable there, and that's why you want to be a leader, because of that team. But for your own growth, you probably need to go to another team or another location only being. And again, I know that may sound, you know, oh, man, that's unfair that I ha. That I'm the one that has to move and I'm doing the good work. You know, I got the promotion. Why do I have to leave? Because it allows you to grow as a leader. Because, you know, part of leadership is getting uncomfortable, and sometimes it's just replanting you somewhere else helps that because you get a clean slate. Because what I will tell you is just like, you might know the team, guess what? They know you, too. They're going to think about what y' all did two Tuesdays ago, right, at happy hour. They're going to think about, you know, all of the little gossipy things that may have occurred or things you were part of before that it's going to be hard for them to disassociate that with now. Obviously, we know there's teams out there that that's just kind of how it happens. And I really think that, you know, as a leader, we acknowledge these things head on. I think there's power in truth, and I think there's power of just admitting, you know, the way it is. Hey, guys, look, I understand that this is a new situation. I understand that I was once one with your colleague a couple of days ago. And again, as much as I don't want things to change, I recognize that our relationship has to evolve. And I said, but again, I want us to be as open, as honest, as connected as we can as the boss. There's going to be some things that I can no longer do like I did before. That doesn't mean I don't care. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned about you. But it's. The dynamics now have to change because now I have a different set of responsibilities, you know, And I think it. I think people Respond well, and they'll say, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I don't like that, but that makes sense. Everyone gets to set. Begin to sit on the same page. But I think that responsibility falls on the leader. To be able to articulate that and to be able to say that to the team. And, you know, again, you've been a part of this group, so you have. I don't want to call it a competitive advantage, but you understand the team, though, so, you know, Susan, you know, proclivities, you know these things. But guess what? You use that to your advantage, meaning to help her be her best self. Right. You don't use those conversations against her, or you have another Tom. You know what pushes Tom's buttons to help motivate him. You can do that, but it's also about. For their benefit, not necessarily for your own. But I think communication and honesty and humility will definitely help to soften some of that. Because everyone's nervous now, right? It's tension like, ooh, is Emmanuel gonna be a jerk now, now that he's the boss? You know, and hopefully I represented myself well before that, where people like, he wouldn't do that, Woody. Right. But there's always that resistance is always. Because you don't know. Right. So I think the honesty, the humility, and just open communication would definitely help soften that blow.

Right on. Right on. As we're talking about this, is there any other big lessons you can't. Because that's amazing. Right? Um, I. I'm just trying to think. So other than being. Or recognizing that relationships change as you move up the food chain as it is, what other things come to mind that. That. That maybe you struggled with or things that you learned that were like, oh, this is a really awesome opportunity. This is really just. I never thought about this, but this is really cool.

Yeah. What I also recognize as I've kind of progressed into different roles is that you're still a leader, even if you don't have the title. And I always will say, yes, leadership's a team sport, but it's also about individual development. And what I've come to recognize is leadership really has an. You know, in the academic world, you know, there's a lot of books and stuff about this that it's referred to as big L leadership, where it comes with the title, but there's also the idea of leadership where it's a little linked, which means that's informal. It's about influence. It's about connections. We've all been or seen operations or been a part of teams where the person who has the title, they may not really be the leader of the group. You know, if you sit back and watch, I've had, you know, the blessing to, you know, do some work with organizations where you get to come in and assess and see what's going on. And sometimes it doesn't take long to be able to see who's really running the show. Right. And what I mean by that's the person who has the most influence, who, their voice carries the most weight. And again, it's not always the person at the top with the big L leadership title. And the lesson that I really learned from that was that your personal development is so important, even if you're not interested in the big L title. And I'll just give a very quick story. I remember when I became a regional supervisor and, you know, I kind of ascended through the ranks and it was all about understanding systems and processes and understanding the why behind the why questions. And I remember I was trying to train all 40 of my pharmacy managers to be regional supervisors. I was like, I want to give them as much knowledge as a skill as as much, you know, information so that one day when they're ready, they can be a pharmacy supervisor and regional supervisor. It was probably the worst 14 months of my life. And. And it was probably the worst 14 months of their life. And what I recognized from that was that, you know, some people were just looking for something different. A lot of them didn't want to be a regional supervisor. Some of them were just, I want to be able to have some skills to be able to affect my team and do great work in the community. Some others were just, I want to learn how to get off on time where I'm not working 40 plus hours a week. I just want to get off when it's done. Or, hey, some were just, I want to learn some skills on how I can maintain a staff where I'm not always running short in a deficit and we're working, you know, extra just to keep up. And there were some who wanted to be it, right? But again, because I was putting what I wanted on them, it didn't give them the opportunity to step into what they really wanted to be. And really, you know, I'm not going to call it a stain on how I view, but it was, you know, looking back, it was a little bit of an embarrassment. Like I was doing something that wasn't about me. It was about, you know, excuse me, it was about me. It was, it wasn't about them, like, right. It was really about again and it was, it was my interpretation of what I thought they wanted or what they needed. And that was completely unfair. That was completely disrespectful to what they wanted. I think that I still did it in a pleasant way and I was kind and I wasn't like a vitreous like manager or anything like that, but I wasn't thinking about them. And you know, so the big eye open lesson was that some people, you know, it's okay being a little L leader. Some people don't want the titles, but they want to be able to impact the world in a way that makes them feel well. And my job is to help support that in whatever light that may be. If they want to be that best mid level, they're perfectly fine. If they want to be a frontline worker, guess what, I'm cool with that as well. You've heard it said, if you love it, I love it. There you go. That's how it is. I support you wherever you want to be.

That's awesome. I love, and I just want to call this part out where I think you mentioned that you were really well intentioned, but the implementation was maybe a little bit messy and not where it needed to be. Where maybe now you'd be like, what's your goal here? Like do you want to be, you know, tell me what you. How I can best support you in kind of that service leadership mentality. I just love that call out because sometimes I've had managers where I've grumbled and I don't understand what's going on. And you can, it's really easy to fall in that trap that it's malicious, where it's maybe just a lack of, it's good intention with a lack of skill and experience, you know, and understanding that gives you a little bit more empathy and be like. Because having led engineering teams, contractors and whatnot, it is really tough when there's no blueprint.

Right, Agree.

And so you're kind of a lot of the time people are figuring it out as they go. If they don't again have that skill or that understanding or that ability to communicate directly and be like, what do you want? They can go sideways. So on another note, one of the things I love to do with leaders is, I learned this at my time at Walmart is when you go into a meeting with people, you try to notice who is talking, doing the most talking, right? Who's doing the least amount of talking, who looks really comfortable, who looks uncomfortable, who seems to be organizing things. Who's, you know, trying to build that social map and how the relationships work together. Like those people are friends, those people maybe don't like each other. And one, it's really fun and it makes meetings a little bit more interesting, especially if the topic's a little dry. You should be paying attention to the topic. But what I found is that information that you can glean from just observing people's relationships can help you more effectively tailor messages, tailor presentations, tailor actually getting consensus for things. And so I'm wondering, do you have any habits like that or any like things you like? If you had like the Emanuel like secret toolkit for leaders, like what would be like your favorite tool to pull out when you're in a group setting or presentation setting?

No, I think, I think what you, you described is really keen. It's interesting. So I get the pleasure of being able to teach in higher education and what you just mentioned, being able to recognize when and when you're losing a room, being able to watch the intricacies of relationships and being able to see groups. You get to see a lot if you become observant. And I know as a leader or someone giving a presentation that could be so nerve wracking, right? Like I got to deliver this message. I got to make sure that they see the facts, figures, numbers and logic of what I'm talking about. And you know, I know that's kind of some of a pressure, like am I delivering the right presentation to the message? But it's also paying attention to the people you're communicating with because it's the recognition that I think that they're the ones that really going to help me get this going. And so the toolkit that I think the tool that I would have is observance of your follower. Right. And you know, I know that may not be a very common word because when we, I know we're talking about leadership, but we need to acknowledge the idea that, you know, you can only lead people who are willing to follow. And if you're not being very attentive to them, whatever that means. How's the temperature in the room? You know, are they sweating? Do they look uncomfortable? What's going on? Do they have like a glazed look in their eyes? Maybe it's up to me to not. I'm not interesting right now. Maybe I need to like get all wiry and crazy and use some hand motions or whatever. Maybe I need to break up this, a presentation about an operating statement and make it more fun and hands on So I think part of it is being just observational of the people that are with you, but then also recognize the ones who aren't because, again, there may be something there. And I think coming back to the humility part of it is if you notice, you have team members. I think you described the ones who are not engaged, the ones who seem to be a little dejected. It's stepping into the world to figure out what's going on, because guess what? I can't assume it's about me. They might just have something going on at home. I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, the last 30 months has been very impactful on all of us in a multitude of ways. I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge there's still parts of the world that are facing levels of shutdown or famine or things that's going on, and you don't know the interrelationships that people have that, that are either here or abroad. And I think when I step back and recognize, I always kind of have a practice of, you know, number one, what is my intent of what I'm trying to do? So that way I know that my heart is pure as much as I can. So I kind of ask myself that question, like, okay, how, how. What's my intent? What is my purpose? Why am I trying to do what I'm going to do and what's the intent? Number two, I try to evaluate what's the impact on of this intent because that starts to help me filter through what are the action steps that I need to take, right? So I have to evaluate my intentions. I evaluate my impact. And then I, like what you said earlier, you kind of stole my word. Like, what does the implementation look like? Right? Because that starts to take in consideration of my team, who they are, what's being expected of them, Right? And then lastly, I try to figure out, how do we make it as easy as possible. I know that's not an I, but again, it's an E. But it's how do we make it as easy as possible? Because, you know, usually sometimes it's leisure leaders. What I recognize is because we may be so far away from the work at hand that we create overly complicated and complex ways to solve a simple problem. But it's because we're sitting over here and we're logically thinking it through when really we want to make this as easy as possible. And what I will acknowledge that last part, the easiest possible, that's when you gotta ask for feedback. Yeah. Hey, what do you Think about this. Hey, what about that? Here's the problem. Like, how would you guys solve it? Right? But it's always, I look at my intent, I look at the impact it's going to cause, I look at the implementation, and then we're like, now we're checking, like, hey, how does this sound? We want to make this as at least as many steps as we possibly can. And that's what that last number, that fourth one is about 100%.

I love that 100. Like, it reminded me of a meeting I was in where we're doing. I'm working on this big software project for big retailer that I mentioned before for their dot com stuff. So it's a meeting of like 30 stakeholders, people from the warehouses, people from the business, technology people, various consultants. And we're talking about how to receive goods into a building. Right? Which seems very straightforward. And it gets complex really quick when you scale up, I bet. And so we're talking about this, and we have a consultant and another consultant and somebody on the business kind of going back and forth about how this should work. And I noticed the guy works in the warehouse, like warehouse managers. He keeps trying to say something can't. And you could see his face get rudder and redder and rudder. And so I interrupt three folks and be like, hey, we should check what this guy is saying. He's like, this isn't going to work. Because this is how the process is on the floor. You do this, you do this, you do this. Everything you're talking about is just irrelevant. And, you know, you could hear the silence in the room. You could hear a pin drop.

Yeah.

And they were like, okay, so we should. How would you do it? And say, we'll do it this way and this would make much more sense. And it probably saved our project. Three days of debate. It saved the technical people building this out, realizing it was going to work, you know, a year ahead when the project got implemented. So the power of, you know, what is my intent, what's my impact? You know, how do I implement this and then how do I simplify it, like, and getting that feedback, it's huge. It could save a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of heartache, broken relationships, all that kind of stuff. And I love that that model itself is a very simple way to think about it. So. Awesome.

Yes, sir. Awesome.

So then, since we're talking about leaders and leadership, how do you think? Like top talent, top, you know, the best leaders, you know, how would. How would you define someone that is the Top expert in their field or in their leadership skill in this particular case.

Yeah. Well, what I'll say is this, is that I think leaders create other leaders. I know it's very easy when you said that even I thought oh, the person that's most credentialed, the one who has the most, you know, letters behind their name, the one who has, you know, the most peer reviewed papers or the, you know, the one who gets paid all the bucks. Right. And I think all of those are important. So I don't want to minimize those. I don't want to underscore the value of having, you know, further specialization. I don't want to underscore the value of, you know, having, you know, expert in your field and being nationally or regionally or how about globally recognized in something. So I don't want to underscore that because you know, there's a lot of those in the world. But I think, you know, for the majority of us is are you able to lead people towards a common goal? I think sometimes we make it so the word so much bigger than what it really is. It's like no leadership can you lead people towards a common goal and sometimes guess what that is just getting them a Chick Fil a for lunch, right? If you've ever tried to go to lunch with people and you're like, hey, where do y' all want to go today? I don't know, where do you want to go? I don't know. Where do you want to go? What about this? And hey, sometimes it's getting them to lunch before your lunch break ends. But what I'll say is I think we're really spurns it is that a good leader is one who recognizes skills, talents and abilities in others and allow them to grow to their fullest potential. Even if that means their fullest potential is not with me. I think that's a real key. If you're willing to help and pour into someone through their development and then you're happy that they go, even if they, that impacts you because now you're losing a very valuable member then, you know, I think you've, you've really won at that point, you know, because the great thing about top talent is is that they're going to always grow. And you know, and I think, but it's also the, for me it's always been the recognition of there, there, there's going to be a point where I'm no longer the Sherpa in this journey. There's going to be a moment where they're they. They have their own mountain to climb that they may have to go and go spread their wings, you know, all the little proverbial, you know, motivational stuff, spread your wings, whatever you want to use. But it's the recognition that they, the parts of their journey may not include me and being okay with that and being, being very proud that I was able to impact a person's development that got them ready for the next step, you know, I never think that I'm the final step, you know, and again, that would be very selfish if I did right. That'd be tremendously selfish. And I think that would be doing them, but then also me a disservice if that's how I viewed it 100%.

It's funny, I recently had talked with another educator at the high school level and he had the exact same point in that, you know, it's about the student, their experience, how they, you know, go about. It's not about what you're doing, it's about how are they learning or growing. It's that sum it up. It's that act of service. And I think that's so important. And it's like, it makes me. I'm very excited that you've had a lot of students that have had that experience and because of that realization. So I just want to acknowledge that I think that's super impactful and I hope that they then carry the torch too when they remember, like, oh, Dr. EG3, like, helped me get out of my own way, helped me, you know, be the best that I could be at that so that I could grow. How do I pass this down?

I was talking to someone today in a meeting and you know, we were just talking about coursework and as you remember, anybody who found themselves in college or, or heck, even high school, there were some classes you jived with that were really kind of like, man, this is my jam, you know, and I'm really good at this. And there were others that were kind of right. And then there were others that you would just wanted to see your way through, if you know what I mean. And some of the courses that I find myself teaching, I was telling them, I said, look, here's the deal. All I want to know, I want to really help them. They can hate me now. This is going to sound funny, but I said, here's my mentality. You can hate me now, you can appreciate me later, or you can never remember where you got it from. I'm okay with it as long as you figure it out. Because again, I understand the courses that I teach are usually essential to their development. And it doesn't seem like it fits the puzzle right now. So that's why you can hate me now, because I get it. It doesn't always fit. It's not always comfortable. It is always predicated on you growing. But just you're going to appreciate it later. Not necessarily me, but the content, the development, the growth. And guess what? You may never remember where you got it from, but all I hope is that seed is somewhere locked in a cabinet, somewhere in the back of the brain. So that when you thing, you're like, huh, this is how I do that. Where did I learn that from? I don't know. And I'm perfectly okay with it. I don't need the accolades. I just want to make sure the seed is planted, you know, so that one day it'll grow.

Awesome. So like that. So you're trying to do this for your students in your journey. Do you have like one or three up to three different pivotal or pivotal leaders or leadership training or leader mentors that really helped shape who you are as a leader?

Well, what I'll say is this, is that, you know, I've always been really trying to seek like, you know, I've always kind of said, man, I want a mentor. One mentor that I could just have this long standing relationship. But, you know, as I think through this, you know, or think backwards, I think life is, you know, to be lived forward, but to be understood when you look back. Right?

Yeah.

And, you know, we talked about how I was able to pull these characteristics and skills from these amalgam of people that I had worked with over the time. And that's really almost how it still is today. You know, I just think the universe's way of like, hey, you know, I think some people are granted with that one person that they've had long standing relationship with. But what I'll say is, is I believe I don't waste any. I don't waste any relationship. I don't waste any learning. And I think life gives you that all the time. I think sometimes we have some people are gifted with one mentor. I think some of us are gifted with multiple people across a spectrum. But it's still up to us because, you know, oftentimes we get in our own way because we sometimes have a very fixed view on how things should look. Oh, I want that one mentor who's 22 years ahead of me, three steps ahead of in the same industry where I want to be. And I Think that's valuable. So let me make sure, like that is still valuable. But you miss out on all of the other little pieces of mentors or mentorship advice that you can get. When you get the opportunity to talk to people from other industries, from, you know, other walks of life, you know, of other interactions you may have, you miss out because if I was very horse blind of like, here's what I think leadership and mentorship should look like, I would miss out on all of the, you know, the people that I get to connect with through, you know, masterminds or coaching or you know, these interactions that I have across departments or, you know, knowing that I have leadership in a seat. I know some people in C suites that I can reach out to for certain things. And again, at the end of day I may not be able to talk to that person in the sweet C suite whenever I want or multiple times a year. But like, when I do, I'm listening, you know, you know, I'm paying attention, you know, because again, you glean from the interactions, right? You glean how they operate. You know, guess what? I, I know there's some leaders that I know that they, they're very pivotal and, and communicative and charismatic when they talk. The problem is it ain't very often, right? So that is very difficult to lead an organization, you know, when you have that. So again, I picked that up. Okay. When I get to that spot, make sure consistent and persistent communication is key. Making sure I'm setting a vision and letting people know. Making sure I'm articulating my values and everything that I do from how I interact, for how I talk, you know, you gotta, you know, you can't just talk, talk, gotta walk the walk, right? So I'm picking all of these little things up, you know, and you know what I'll say? In today's world, we have the privilege and opportunity of having mentors that we may never meet. You know, we have the ability to consume content across multiple platforms. You know, we have where it could be a 30 second something, it could be a 3 minute long video, it could be long form content, it could be Sean Butner and his podcast, right? That this is going to be something that will live on into perpetuity, that, you know, we get the privilege of being mentors to others that we may never meet, but that doesn't mean we minimize our service to them. And I think that's just key.

Awesome.

Awesome.

And I can't agree with you more on that. So, yeah, then switching gears, moving forward if you were talking to someone that was newly in a leadership position, either on like coaching a sport, pharmacist, you know, leading, you know, pharmacy shop.

Yeah.

Store or whatever. I just completely blanked on on.

Hey, it's okay. No one knows we're in the back of that store anyway, so.

Fair enough. You know, a beginning leader, what would be like one to three things you would tell a beginner to really focus on to make sure that they are maximizing that opportunity and not repeating mistakes?

Oh, agreed, agreed. It's really a three step formula. It's really a three step formula and it really, it has to follow this cadence. Number one, you really have to look at yourself. You know, you got that role, you got that position, you, you know, toughen up, be vulnerable with yourself and figure out what are the things you need. You know, do you need to go to Toastmasters to learn to speak in front of people? Do you need to, you know, go take a course or get your green, let's say your green belt and lean six sigma. Go figure out what you need to do to develop to get that going. Because I can tell you, oftentimes we are thrusted into leadership positions well before we're ready. Right. You know, just because you're the best programmer doesn't mean you need to lead a team of programmers. And I think that's a flaw of like, you know, our, our cultural organizational systems is just because you're good at, you know, you might be the number one salesman in selling cars may not be the reason why you need to be the gm because they're functionally two different jobs. So what you did on the lower rung, I promise you, doesn't really prepare you for the next rung up. So number one, focus on yourself. What do you need to develop to be able to step in that role fully? You know, and that might even be a reflection on what are my gifts, talents, abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Go do a whole SWOT analysis since we talk in leadership. Right. Go really dive into yourself. So number one, focus on self. Number two would be focus on system. So wherever you're finding yourself, whether that is car salesman, whether that is a computer programmer, or in healthcare, a pharmacy, what is the system that you're following? So do you need to understand standard operating procedures? Do you need to understand workflow? Do you need to understand the financial operations? Because you have to master that to be able to understand how well and how good you're doing not only for yourself, but guess what, for your higher ups. Because you know, most of us have bosses and they're going to be looking for key performance indicators, they're going to be looking at metrics, they're going to be looking at efficiencies, they're going to be looking at profitability. Right. So again you need to understand that system. But recognizing what you did before may not be what you need to be looking at now in a new role. Then the third one is now we get to your team. Now I know that may feel counterproductive. Well Emmanuel, Dr. EG3 you been talking about service to others. Like why are they number three? Because if I don't understand the previous two, what is the real service that I'm providing them? I could be nice to them, I could sit there and hold their hand. I could be as catering human, humble and attentive. But I'm not really helping them fulfill their key purposes, not just within the organization in life. So really at the end of the day, you are now responsible for a team that you are responsible for helping them. That's way more than that organization. And I think there's a toxic thing in work culture. You know, you've heard it, you got to leave home at home and work at work. And I think, you know, that is disingenuous to think that we're able as human beings to dissociate. You know, sometimes your employees are having struggles at work because of something that's happened at home. Yeah. How about this? Sometimes your team is having struggles at home because of stuff that's happened at work. Right. And I think it's being sensitive that and realize is, is, is, you know, it goes back, that goes back and forth. It's not just one unilateral experience. So those are the three things that I tell everyone when they step into a new leadership position. Dive into yourself first. You, the system, your team. And that's the order. You have to kind of go that way. Now I know that is way more simplistic than you know, obviously implementation. But it's like those are your mental priorities. Yes, you're going to have to deal with some team members while you're working on yourself. Yes, you're going to be, you know, learning the system, whatever. But the priorities have to be in that line because again you can only impact your people if you really understand yourself and understand the system.

I absolutely love that the three step part. And it like to highlight that I being a software engineer, seeing peers get promoted up into management and not having the skills of leadership and it is a skill like we've talked about it's communication, it's relationship building, it's observing, it's service, you know, and really getting out of your ego to try to make, lift people up. You know, when you're not self aware what you're blind on, you just think you know it all. You go down these roads where people resent you because you're not giving the team a space to breathe. You know, when you don't understand how the work is actually done, you don't get respected by the people that actually do know how to do it or you get taken advantage of. Like so I definitely again, like, this is a very awesome, very, like you said, very simple but very powerful three step thing to keep in mind as a new leader. So on the flip side, if you've been going at it for a while and you're so since you've worked at a regional level, so you're like leading leaders. Right. What would you give an intermediate manager or leader advice on how to grow their, their leadership skill or leadership capability?

Yeah, you know what, I would tell anyone, especially because I heard you say go at it for a while. So I'm assuming the, the example is someone who's been trying to get promoted or trying to go to that next level. You know, I'm all for organizational loyalty, but sometimes it's being able to step out of that organization.

Yes.

Sometimes it's very difficult for homegrown talent to continue to be recognized because you know, unfortunately, hey, you know, how should I say this? Some leaders aren't, aren't as transformational and service driven as you, Sean. Right. Or as you know me. Right. So it's, sometimes they think, oh, as long as Sean is there, I have nothing to worry about. So hey, I'm not really trying to allow Sean to grow and develop and grow because I know if Sean leaves, oh no, I'm going to be in a whirlwind of hurt. Right. And you know, sometimes it's shooting your shot. You sit there and you try to progress as best you can within your organization, but you know, you keep your options open. I mean, there's a lot of organizations out there that are looking for great talent and it's unfortunate that sometimes that is that growth is not outside, is outside of your organization. And if I could relate it back to a comment we mentioned earlier about how organizationally sometimes they will promote you out of your store, out of your team, sometimes you need to do your own promotion at another company. You know, and that's a reality. You know, I wish I could tell your audience that, oh no, it's all about the hard work. It's all about the development. You know, sometimes we have good leaders and sometimes we don't and sometimes there's a spectrum in between and it's being able to recognize that if you've put the work in and what I'll say is this, if you've genuinely put the work in and meaning, Meaning that you're working on your development, not just your attendance. Because I think that sometimes we get conflated as well. I've been at an organization X number of years, so therefore I. There's a difference between attendance and performance and I think we need to self check ourselves. So if we've been, you know, to your point, to your usual words of going at it it for some time, I think that is a moment where you might have to find a mentor, someone to bounce something off of. Maybe there is a lack of self awareness or ego that's not allowing you to go there. You know, it might be your boss, I'll give it 100. It might be your boss but also the other side of that coin, it definitely might be you and it's being able to step to that. So if you are looking to be a leader, you need to have that self awareness and that, you know, humility to be able to look at maybe it's me. And then you'll really grow, right? Yeah. Nobody wants to know their weaknesses or their opportunities. I know we try to. We don't say weaknesses no more, we say opportunities, you know, but at the end nobody wants to hear that. But it's essential because now I know what to work on right now. I know what to go do. Now I can go in the lab and create something, you know, so. And I would much rather someone choose to humble themselves to look at their opportunities because you and I both know organizations will do it and they will humble you and then your opportunities become reasons for you to be performance managed. And performance managed means they can move off of you for any or any little reason at a moment. So that's what I would have that helped.

Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I think my experience working for Apple and Walmart, which are very large organizations with a lot of lateral movement, is that as an informal like just thought leader, individual contributor, that switching teams gives you perspective on how things were done. So when a team comes up with a problem that maybe another team solved, it's low hanging fruit to kind of show up and offer an idea that might be really helpful. So I think that Cross pollinate, pollinization or pollination. That's a hard word on a Wednesday afternoon here. Really can help you shine in a performance kind of way. But yeah, that, that. What is holding. How am I holding myself back? That question. It's tough to ask. It's tough to have people you trust to ask that, that question of. And that's hard to get honest feedback, right? And I think as a coach, that that's another reason why people hire coaches is to get that honest feedback that's not necessarily brutal or cruel, but it's just like, hey, this is what we need to work on. And most people, I think can answer that for themselves too with a little bit of a sounding board of this is what I'm trying to accomplish. You do that digging work can be really, really helpful. But I think that's amazing.

So.

Let'S see what habits keep you on purpose or mission each day, each week or each month. What helps you connect to the meaning of what you're doing as a leader in this context?

Well, no, definitely habits have been something that have come to go. Come and go with me. I wish I was one of those more regimented. You know, when you are a girl, dad, life changes quite frequently and often. So having habits and routines are, are sometimes a challenge. But what I will tell you, Sean, is that I've always been very priority driven. So if nothing else, if nothing else, I there, there's a one thing, two things that I do. Number one is just always at the beginning of the week. I'm not gonna lie to you and your audience and say I do this crap every day. I don't know, oftentimes it's Sunday afternoon and really it's not even always like a write down. Sometimes it's just a sit in the moment. What big things do I have coming up this week? Right? What are big things? Where are they at on my calendar? You know, what days do I have to prioritize? You know, just kind of. That may be prioritizing energy, effort, just so that I know what's coming up so I know how I look. How much fight do I need to bring to something? Right? Ooh, that meeting might be kind of tough. All right, let me make sure I do a couple of leg squats and push ups before I go in because I need to be ready. Whereas other ones, oh, this week's not that bad. So one is really always stepping back and looking at, okay, what are the priorities this week? Right? And usually that'll lend itself at some point to what Are the priorities of this month? Like, what's going on? Okay, it's July coming up. What do I have going on? Oh, I gotta go to a conference, gotta go to a mastermind. You know, I mean, you kind of think of that. Yeah. That's the one thing that I always do habitually is always identifying what are my priorities. Number two that has gotten really much more helpful for me is working out every day. Every day. Now, I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing CrossFit or high intensity workouts. No, sometimes it's there, it's something simple. 30 minutes of cardio, whatever I choose, however I feel that day. 50 push ups, 50 sit ups, you know, maybe some leg squats, and that's about it. And the reason for that was. It was what I stepped back. I had an epiphany earlier this year and you know, I have young kids and really what I did was I shifted my motivation as to why. You know, as we know, healthy habits are very difficult to maintain. If you're, you know, if your excuses are bigger than why you're doing it, then usually your excuses win. But mine became, I just want to walk my girls down the aisle, try to sit back and think like, okay, she's this age. To say, oh man, that's going to put me 25 years. Well, I got to do what I can, the best I can to make sure that this decrepit body makes it, to be able to walk that, that kiddo down the aisle, you know, two decades away from now. And really that. And again, that's been a really good motivator. But what I've also learned in these, what, five months since I started, that my body recognizes the days that I don't. You know, it's almost like the body's craving it more than the mind at this point. And you know those days that for whatever reason that I skip or you know, just whatever, the schedule got chaos or I couldn't hit the, I had to hit the snooze at 4:45 and I just couldn't get up. And then I feel all old and decrepit, like, oh my goodness, why is my hip clicking? Why can't I get up? And it's like the bio's like, bro, you didn't go do what you were supposed to do. So I would say those are the two things primarily that, that really have kept me trajectory forward. And I guess a more informal one is just I'm always trying to connect with somebody every week, you know, Whether that's a check in, whether that's a text message, you know, really just trying to learn about people and connect with them, whether that's on Instagram, messenger or whatever. It's just a practice that I have now of just checking in on people because, you know, this world is crazy and you know, people need to know you're thinking of them and people need to know that someone's out there, you know, just willing to check in. So, so those are two things.

So super, super awesome. So one last question then. What from our discussion today did you love and really stuck out for you and you think would be like, if there's one lesson from today that we talked about with the all of the things about leadership, we talked about centering around service, centering around helping rise people up to the best version of themselves in two broad big categories. What do you think is the most important thing we talked about today?

Well, what I'll say is that helping individuals become their best selves, I think that means so much to so many people and I think there's a gap in this world. So you asked me earlier why leadership? And I just think that we have a lack of leadership, you know. And you know, leadership does not mean getting someone to a promotion. It could, but it depends on if that's what the person wants, right? Sometimes just about, hey, I want to be a better mom, I want to be a better dad. How about this? I want to be a better son, I want to be a better daughter, right? It might be about work maybe, but sometimes it's, can I lead them literally to being able to coach their little kids softball league, right? And is being able to just allow people to grow and give them the space and helping them to find carve outs so they can do what they say they love, you know, and you know, we all have responsibilities, but it's also helping people to do things they love and grow to be the best version of themselves. But then giving them the pen and the paintbrush to determine what that, that looks like.

With that. Dr. EG3, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I don't think we could end on much more perfect note than that. I'll have in the notes below the podcast how to contact you on Instagram and your website. Is there anything else going on we should point the good folks to?

No, no. I mean, it's a, it's a long time, obviously. You know, Sean, as always, I thank you for having me on. It's always a great time when you and I connect, you know, whatever I could do to best serve you and your audience, I'm here for you guys, you know?

Well, we appreciate you for that. All right, Dr. E G3, we'll talk to you next time. What a great conversation with Dr. Emmanuel George. I just love these podcasts, guys. Okay, so first off, you can learn more about Dr. EG3 online and the links are below in the show. Notes number two. The takeaways from today that I think you can help to live a little bit more meaningful are to know yourself and your blind spots, to know your environment that you're working in, and to know the team that you are leading. Right? Very, very simple. So if you do me a favor, make sure you go to Apple Podcasts and like and subscribe to this podcast and leave a comment that helps us get the word out, helps us, you know, make this as impactful as possible. If you want to learn more about me, Sean, your Host, go to www.sean.coach s h a w m.coach and then make sure to listen to the next episode because this is actually concluding the first season, the first experiment of the Meaningful Revolution podcast. So I don't have the next one as I'm recording this right now, but as soon as it's out there and up, make sure you download it. Thank you so much for being on this journey with me. Thank you so much for joining this meaningful revolution with me. And we'll see you in the next episode.

Take care.