Faith Over Fear: How To Adopt A Success Mindset with Mandy Schaniel

Every day we want to wake up knowing that we're making an impact on others, our families, our teams, our world, and ourselves too. But when we lead our personal meaningful revolutions, we encounter self doubts, fear and imposter syndrome. When we push ourselves to serve at a higher level, we find it necessary to push ourselves into a greater version of ourselves. So. So today's guest, Mandy Chenille, is a former executive at ZIT recruiter and author of the book Faith Over Fear, how to Adopt a Success Mindset. As retired startup executive, she's on a mission to share the lessons she's learned about achieving success and fulfillment with the world. And in today's discussion on the Meaningful Revolution podcast, we will cover mindset, self awareness, finding your why, and continue our conversation on why you need to lead your personal meaningful revolution. So welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I'm your host, Shawn Butner, and this is the place where people find the inspiration, strategies and discussions to build their most purposeful, fulfilled and joyful life. Hey Mandy. So glad to have you here.

So happy to be here. Thank you so much, Sean.

Of course, before we were talking, this season is all about leadership and answering the question, why do you need to lead your personal meaningful revolution? I know you just wrote a book about leadership and so we can delve into that, but to you, the first question I have for you is having written the book, how has that transformed your life since it being published?

That's a great question. I wrote the book as my way of owning my work life balance since I had the opportunity to retire from working full time. I still have my consulting business, but really wanted to finally wear that badge of honor of stay at home mom as I've got three kids and they're growing up awfully fast. So what's really interesting is in the book I've laid out all of the lessons that I've learned and sometimes learned several times over about leadership and not just in the capacity of a work environment, but self leadership and how do you make achieving goals simple? How do you do it without running yourself ragged, stressing out, burning out, how do we get there? And, and how do we prevent some of the interesting loopholes when it comes to goal achievement, which I'm sure we'll touch on. And so what's really interesting is I dive into imposter syndrome and things like that that I've experienced in my life and career and writing that out on paper and having advice and being able to look back and say, oh, I, I did it, I, I overcame that is, is A great experience. But at the same time, this is a new venture for me. I'm a first time author, so a lot of it too. You unearth all of those things that you've been through and that you've learned and you're like, wait, why am I feeling the signs of imposter syndrome again? So that's been another learning experience and I think a great example for people that just because you've learned the lesson doesn't mean it's not going to come back and test you to say, okay, you're going to apply the things that you've learned. Doesn't mean it's never going to come into your life again. So I think that's been one of the biggest things that I've learned since writing the book is, oh, yep, some of these things come back and I, I get the opportunity to practice what I preach.

Right on, right on. So I guess then maybe knowing a little bit more about your story. So you talk about leadership, you talk about imposter syndrome, you talk about that, that kind of like personal leadership you need to, to change your life in a lot of ways, whether it's writing a book because you want to take care of your family more, which is amazing. Could you maybe share a quick story about yourself navig having imposter syndrome? Maybe how you navigated it and how that was maybe the basis for this book that you wrote?

Absolutely. Quick, brief example of my career story is I found myself in the recruitment technology space, kind of happenstance. Was incredibly blessed to have an amazing mentor who taught me everything about this space. I really grew in it and loved it and it was really a great purpose for me because no matter how much stress the workday had, I knew at the end of the day was helping people find jobs and helping employers hire people. So that always felt really good. My career grew incredibly fast. I was recruited into ZipRecruiter in the early days as an executive. It was my first executive role. I had worked at teeny tiny startups where I wore so many hats that wouldn't fit on my head. So this was an entirely new experience for me and I was excited about it. But as we grew, and if you're familiar with ZipRecruiter story at all, it was a rocket ship ride. So you're growing and learning, you're building the ship while it's taking off. Right. That was a and beautiful experience. What happened for me as one of the youngest executives, one of few female executives. And as we kept growing and bringing on People that were seasoned executives and had multiple very successful careers and opportunities at different companies had gone public. And all of this stuff. I'm comparing myself to them. And so I would question myself. My confidence would falter. I'd feel frustrated. I'd feel like, oh, like, is this a joke? Should I not have this title? Like, there. And they reminded me of in school. I had transferred high schools and was immediately put into honors classes. And they were like, there's no reason you shouldn't be in honors classes. And that was the first time in my life I'd ever had to study being in an honors class. And I came home from school. This was like the same exact feelings I had in this work environment. Funny. I came home from school and I told my mom, they're gonna find me out. I'm. Apparently, I'm parading around as a smart kid because this is hard. And she's no Mandy. It's normal to have to study like it was before. This is good. It's challenging. And so I had to remember that. That conversation I'd had with my mom. But I really didn't know. And this is one of the main reasons I wanted to write this book. I wasn't aware for the longest time that I was experiencing imposter syndrome. I was just being down on myself. It wasn't until a boss of mine, Alan Jones, our CMO at the time, he bought all of his executives a bunch of books for Christmas time one year. And one of those books was Lean in by Sheryl Sandberg. Oh, yes. And when I finally got around to reading it. Cause my kids are still little, so getting my head in a book took a while. At that point, stormed into his office the next day and slammed my hand on his desk. And I was like, oh, my God, it's not just me. And he's like, you finally read it. Opened up my eyes to, wow, there's so many things going on in our lives where if we don't slow down to pay attention to our thoughts and our mindset, we could just be beating ourselves up like I was for no good reason. Not even recognizing where it's coming from, and struggling to find a way to flip it and move it positive. So that is where self leadership and mindset really, to me, go hand in hand. You have to take the time to be aware of what you're thinking. Because once that finally clicked for me and I had that aha moment, it was so much easier to address the negative subconscious thoughts that were going on. And maybe not so subconscious sometimes and really fight against them and slip them around so that I could grow and not be stuck in this place of being down on myself for no good reason. Yeah, that's. That's why I'm like, you can take me off my soapbox at any time because I will talk about this. So I'm blooming the place. Paying attention to your mindset, taking that time to pause, to breathe, to think, to just be aware of the thoughts that are going on in your head and be able to flip them around is so critical to moving forward in whatever you're focused on. Career, family, relationships, whatever.

Right. Hopefully all three are all of a whole part of your life.

But yes.

So I'm curious. So your story is one of, in a way, not being aware of how your thoughts are actually dictating what's going on in your life and then having it decoded and you're like, oh my gosh, here are all the. I can see the dashboard with all the warning lights on. Right. Could you maybe explain what that book spoke of or gave voice to in terms of self diagnosing that you had imposter syndrome? Oh, now that I have the wording or the idea that, oh, this is how imposter syndrome is manifesting itself in my life.

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a big data nerd. So reading a book that has a lot of research in it, like, I just always want the facts at my fingertips. And so in Lean in, she goes into so many different research studies about how men and women and boys and girls operate differently, how we're taught to operate diff differently. And she goes into a lot of her stories and she really breaks down what imposter syndrome is. And I was reading it going, check. Oh, okay. And so what it did for me was not only allowed me to self diagnose and recognize this is where this is coming from, but it also as a leader, it showed me, whoa, there's a whole new set of responsibilities that I have to help people prevent themselves from going down this road. What can I do on my teams to make sure that they the it's not just the men raising their hands to answer questions or volunteer for projects. How do I get that out of women? How do I empower them? How do I help them when that may not be their natural inclination? Because as I'm sure research has shown that typically. And this starts in school age children and it goes into the workforce because we learn a lot about our future behaviors and they get become habits right at a young age. Typically boys and men will raise their hands, they'll go after something even if they know they don't have a hundred percent of the qualifications, they're not a hundred percent sure about the answer. Whereas girls and women tend to put this stress on themselves that I have to have everything from A to Z, I have to be a hundred percent confident in the answer. And we tend to se second guess ourselves a lot more. And so this is why a lot of times less women applying to certain jobs, less women asking for raises or asking for a promotion. And so that really got my brain going in terms of what can we do to not only educate so that we are not being biased against ourselves. That's how I look at it for my own journey. And how can we empower people and help make people aware of those biases and those differences so that we can level the playing field and really have a focus on true equity in the workforce, but in all things. Right. That's part of the goal of writing this book is sharing all of these secrets and how you have to lead yourself to that. Right. When you have experienced bias in any way, shape or form, and typically it happens the most to underrepresented groups and whatever they're doing, that's generally how it works. It's so easy to get upset about it and want to point the finger. I have found for me and I'm maybe I'm different and that's okay for me. I would rather assume that it's unintentional and I'd rather focus on what can I do about it. So how can I prevent myself from having these biases about myself and how can I show that to other people so that maybe if their bias was a little more conscious than I'd like to believe, they can make some changes. Just seeing the research and the data really helped me, which is part of why I reference so many other books and research in my book. Because I know for me I'm going to believe a lot more when there's data to back it up. Right?

Totally. As a former and recovering software engineer. Yeah. Very analytical. The data is super, super important. Okay. There's a lot that a lot of different directions we could go with what you just said. I know that like diversity and equity is a hot button issue right now and so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I have a lot of friends that have worked in that space or have businesses around like dei, which shouldn't say ever outbound, but which is infuriating because we should want More diversity, equity and inclusion. It's not favoring groups that are underrepresentative. It's including people. And from a like the data shows the more diverse perspectives you have in an organization, the better outcomes you have overall if ideas.

That's exactly where I was going to go. I did talks on this at TA Tech years ago after I read Lean In, I started a group Women in TA Tech. It was Lean In Circle. We started a mentorship group at ZipRecruiter and I did so many presentations on just the power of diversity. And this is the thing I think people have to understand because there's any change brings up a lot of feelings for every human being, right? And you may or may not be conscious of where they're coming from or what those feelings could represent to someone else. But change is hard, right? Some of us adapt to it more easily in certain cir circumstances and for some of us it's incredibly difficult to navigate change. That's just how we're wired as human beings. I always try to start from that angle of yes, change is difficult, but we have beyond the human responsibility of doing the right thing, which is something I and feel very strongly about. The power of diversity. When you have diversity of thought, you have such better outcomes. There's so much data that points to the overwhelming power of having a diverse workforce. Create solutions. Number one, you're able to better understand your customer base, right? Because not everyone looks and thinks and has the same experiences as a less diverse group of people. The. The broader you have it, the more understanding you have of what's going on and you're going to have a different set of ideas. So it. There's so many positive revenue implications for companies that it boggles my mind why more companies don't think this is the game changer. When you're looking at your revenue goals, especially in economic times like this should be your number one focus because the correlation between diversity and revenue and performance is just crystal clear. Beyond that, we're in an age of technology and we every everybody's talking about AI and as we know AI is built on data from humans, right? It just didn't come out of thin air. It's built on input from actual human beings. If that input, whether you're talking about in a single company putting those inputs in or around the world, if it is not diverse, it's not going to be truly representative of the human population. It's. It is going to have bigger issues by not encompassing diversity of thought. That that is one of the Things I think is really important in leadership is trying to bring up the voices who hold themselves back because you're losing value by not hearing their input. That doesn't mean everyone always has to speak up and say something if they have nothing to say or it's not their area of expertise like by all means. But it's important to pull it out of people who may be holding back because they're not entirely sure, they're lacking some confidence. It all goes hand in hand. Right. It's just the pretty common thing to do but also so incredibly powerful not only for community building and equity versus equality. Right. We've all seen that cartoon picture of the difference of this. Right. Equality is giving everyone the same thing whereas equity looks at. Where are you starting from? What do you need to be at the same, you know, have the same perspective, right. With and I'm sure you've seen the cartoon image of people looking over a fence and someone needs about three boxes to be able to see at the same level as the person on their right. That's equity. Right. And it's. So it's not about favoring anybody, it's about really leveling the playing field and giving people the same opportunity. Which is maddening that we still have to have this conversation today, but I feel like we're making strides.

Well, progress comes in fits and starts. Right. And so it's always forward regardless.

Yes. Yeah.

So I, I, that's, I absolutely love all that. I think to go back a little bit back in the conversation connecting that we all have biases and part of the learning journey of a leader is to figure out your own. Even if it like the amount of, I'm sure impact it had on your teams to have imposter syndrome but not address it. And the really funny I've worked for people where it's like you are trying too hard to be a leader when you just gotta get outta the way and let your people do your thing in a particular circumstance. I'm thinking in my head right now, not saying that was you, but doing that self work and awareness to then address that and lead the team. Whether you're part of a team or the actual elected leader, I think is super important. Could you maybe share how so you have this big revelation. You are learning so much about yourself, you're starting to approach your role and recruiter in a different way. How did that impact your teams?

Um, it, it really changed how I communicated with them because mind you, I was still, I guess young is the right word cause I was young and, and early on in my career as an executive, but I was new to it. And I think a lot of leaders find themselves when you have that quote unquote leadership title. That's wonderful. Sorry about that.

You're good. You're good.

When you have that quote unquote leadership title, there's typically depending on the organization, you'll go through some form of HR training, right? And for me now, growing up, my dad was a police officer for 30 years. He was a sergeant. So for me, rules, very important, right? Like that. That's how I grew up. And so having HR training, which is all about rules and laws and do's and don'ts and all of that, it made me nervous to express my softer people skills because I was like, okay, like what's okay? What's not okay to talk about in one on one meetings. And what I really learned from that revelation about my imposter syndrome was it is so critically important to get to know the people you're working with, whether you're their leader or not on a personal level, because it helps you to understand not only what's going on in their lives, but that they're comfortable sharing. Of course. But how can you motivate them? How can you inspire them? How can you help them to reach their goals? Because just like parenting, right? Parenting and leadership are so closely connected. It's funny, you're not always going to get clear communication from your employee and sometimes you're going to have to pull it out of them. You are going to have to be the one that spots the potential and helps point it out and put them on the right path if they're willing. And so I think the, the revelation of what I had been going through helped me to change my communication and to really listen for some of those signs and point them out and share my journey and let them know they're not alone. Like, you see me as this executive in this corner office and you think, and we'd had conversations, I worked with a lot of folks early on in their career and they're like, oh, I want to be you when I grow up, Mandy. And I don't laugh and be like, I don't exactly know what I'm doing all the time, but you know, I know what I'm doing at work, but I question myself still. And so having that real authentic conversation of just because I have this title, just because I have this office, doesn't mean I know all. And I'm super confident in everything that I'm doing. I'm a human being. And that right there, having that conversation really tore any and all walls down and allowed me to build really strong relationships with the people on my team and people on other teams. We, we used to joke I had a couch in my office and we used to say, mandy. Everyone would be like, mandy, you need to get a long couch so people can just lay down. Because that's what happens. And I'm like, great, if it would fit. But my office was shaped funny so it, it wouldn't fit. But. And I loved that. I loved that people from other teams felt comfortable enough to. Hey, Manny, you got five minutes. I had to learn boundaries too and say, you're gonna have to put it on my calendar. Cause I get, hey, you got five minutes. Like all throughout the plane and never five minutes. But I want, wanted to give them that time and have the time dedicated to having those conversations and offering advice. And so that really allowed me to step into more of a mentorship role and helping to. Which is, oddly enough, probably the thing I find most fulfilling about leadership is spotting the potential in someone and helping them see it when they're questioning it or they don't even see it themselves, and helping to give advice on what to do next. Let's break this down into small steps so it's not overwhelming. And then seeing them come out the other side and their, their gratitude always blows me away. Cause I'm like, I did nothing but point this out and offer some advice to you. Like, my role in all of this is minuscule. Like you have to be so proud of yourself because you did the work. And it's just a wonderful experience to see it really snowballed into helping me to see what I get the most fulfillment out of which is.

That's awesome. So what I heard, and I'm paraphrasing again, so putting my coach brain on is that with imposter syndrome, it actually put up a barrier for you to be vulnerable and connect with people. And one of the things that I personally believe about leadership and in my experience is that people, it's a co creation process. It's not somebody you're not. It's not a one way direction either with the person you have that's on your team or with the leader by being able to be vulnerable and know that, oh, I don't have this all figured out, maybe I'll ask my team for help and they're the experts anyways. And so that kind of bubbles up. So I think that's a big key takeaway for people listening is everyone has imposter syndrome at some point in their life with some area of their life, whether it's being a new parent or starting a new job or joining a new team or whatever that is. And that's okay. But how we handle it and how we is directly related to how quickly we can get help or how quickly we can be vulnerable, which builds that relationship and connection with people. It's.

I, I think it's also one of the, the keys that you're tapping into is redefining what is okay when you're a leader. What redefining what leadership is. Leadership isn't always being the one that has the answer, isn't never asking for help. It isn't always being super confident and never showing any weakness. To me, the testament of great leadership is having the confident humility to say, that's a great question. I don't know the answer. Let's see who does. Let's find out. Asking for help, falling on the sword when you've made a mistake, owning up to it. And I think as parents, that's one that I know. Took me a little while as my kids were growing up to realize that it's actually really important to building respect and trust to own up to my mistakes. Right. If I slip and let out a word, we don't let the kids say it does no good. Yeah, it's pretend like it didn't happen because what are they going to do behind my back? They're going to go say those words. We don't want them saying, I come to them and say, show them respect and it goes to me again. Goes the same way with employees or anyone you're working with and say, man, I messed up. I'm, I apologize. Whatever the case may be, you own it. You are modeling the behavior you want back and you are actually building trust. Not about putting yourself in this fortress where you're untouchable. That's an old school way of thinking about leadership and capacity. It's about being a real human that people actually do want to quote, unquote, follow. They do want to work hard for you. They do want to respect you. They do trust you. That is so critical. And so it's, it's always maddening to me when I would say the quote unquote, old school leaders. I won't give you my categorization for that, but I'm sure you can bet what it would be. But old school leaders de emphasize these softer skills. When I'm like, are you kidding? That is the power behind leadership. Because getting that connection and that trust and that respect, you will see so much of a difference in performance and employee satisfaction and engagement and everything than if you're the one just cracking the whip. You don't show any dents in your armor. You're this perfect being that's not realistic, that's not authentic. People don't connect with that.

And it's extremely costly to a team that like if you're hired to do a job and you're constantly worried about your job, worried about making the wrong decision, so you have to defer to the one person that can make the decision. Cuz it's authoritarian, that's costing your company money and eventually people burn out and leave. And that's I'm sure at zip recorder how expensive it is to onboard somebody new.

Oh yeah, the, the cost of having a conversation to understand someone's goals is minuscule just in and of itself. But in comparison to having to hire, advertise for hiring, retrain, have the workload distributed amongst a smaller group of people. Like all of those things. And you're so right because I love the quote, people don't leave jobs, they leave bad managers. So true. And like that's what we're talking about. And and again going back to what we were talking about earlier, really identifying and having that self awareness allows you self awareness again connects to emotional intelligence. You have to be self aware to be able to accurately identify what you're feeling, what caused that feeling and to predict in this mode of where I'm at is it going to be helpful or harmful to make a decision or take an action and then the next step from there and my mind with emotional intelligence is being able to what it in other people. How do I communicate? What emotions do I elicit when I speak in this way? How can I correct that so that we can do something that moves us forward? Right. It all goes hand in hand.

Absolutely. Since we're nerding out about this, I have so I have my favorite self awareness question. I'd love to hear yours.

Okay.

My mind for the audience. I think if you want to judge yourself as a leader or teammate or any area of your life is how do you behave when you're stressed? Because one like it's identifying I'm stressed out. You sometimes you don't. You're so in it you don't realize it. If you're the type of person that lashes out at people, that's costing you a lot of interpersonal currency in quotes where oh, this guy is not stable. He'll be super happy and chipper. And then it comes in on Monday and is stressed out about the week and takes it out on everyone. Oh, I need to communicate that I'm stressed. I need to let people know those types of things. Or being able to be like, oh, I know Mandy when she's stressed out. You know, it's. Instead of going, I don't know, I'm just gonna say, like, you get ice cream for lunch or something. I don't know. Like, whatever the tell is, it's, oh, she reads books all the time. Like, try to manage the stress. I need to check in with Mandy when I see her reading a book right, at work or on break or whatever. That's my favorite question. And I think that can help you understand people a lot more. Do you have a favorite question that you've used in your career or that's speaking to you right now?

That's a great question. I do have one. And it stems from my premise that a lot of times when people feel stuck in terms of creating what you would call their meaningful revolution. Right. Or find purpose and fulfillment in what they're doing, um, my belief is that a lot of the time we're so busy, we're not aware of our mindset, and it's very scary thing to start paying attention to the thoughts that are going on in our head that we're not even aware of because we're so used to them. And so my favorite question to ask people when they feel silly saying an affirmation or flipping the thought on its head is, would you let someone else talk to you like that? Probably not. And if you wouldn't let someone else talk to you like that, why are you going to feel weird about flipping it on yourself? Because you're training your subconscious to believe those thoughts if you're not addressing them and changing them. So that. That's my favorite one. Because a lot of times people, especially women, have a really hard time changing those negative thoughts, and it can be overwhelming. Right? We're. When we're talking about women and mothers, like, there's so many different things where you almost forget you're a human being after you have a baby and your body has changed, and there are different stressors and different priorities in your life. And so trying to really focus on things that make you feel good instead of criticizing yourself and recognizing just how often you're criticizing yourself is a lot. But knowing that you have the power to change it and so not being hard on yourself for letting those thoughts become habit. But going, no, I'm going to be empowered. I'm going to take the control back by flipping these and I'm going to remind myself that I wouldn't let anyone else say those things to me. So I'm not going to let myself do it either. I think that's a key tipping point for people that struggle to really get into mindset and learning how to change it.

Absolutely. Because my work with mindset, it's like tuning a radio. You have a frequency, you could turn into that self critic and everything you hear, see, do your whole perception is now colored by that the music from that station. And when you can recognize, oh, I'm listening to the beat up on Sean guy, let's switch this to like why Sean's awesome. And you turn the dial and you're like, oh, I have good relationships, I have a successful career, yada yada yada yada. Not to be flippant about that, but it's really a simple change that's very hard to do and maintain, especially if you don't have. If you're never given any tools.

Exactly. My. So I have a trick. If you have any listeners that are struggling with that and who love to be sarcastic like I do. So my favorite way and for me as a Christian, it it I tend to say prayer or what I'm thankful for or whatnot, but you can do the same thing in terms of just your thoughts. When I've had periods of time where I felt like I was next step to be named complainer of the year, which is my least favorite thing and something I want to avoid at all costs. Right. I had to flip it and I had to say, okay, the next time this thing happens that I would normally complain about, I'm going to say, oh awesome, there's a blessing on the way. Oh great, something good's gonna come from this. And at first it felt so unnatural. So I would just sarcastically I'd be like, oh great, so here comes a blessing. It would happen again. I'd be like, oh, the blessing is even bigger. Wonderful. But it worked because I was still changing the, the mindset, changing the internal reaction. And eventually that became like a, a legitimate non sarcastic response to those kinds of situations. And when that's the process I took right before I got recruited to join Zip Recruiter. And so it really turned into something positive where I was able to get myself out of the other mindset and move into something much more powerful where I had an opportunity to grow. So that's my little trick. If you like to be sarcastic, start there. Why not? Like it doesn't hurt.

I love that. And it reminded me my very first programming job outside of out out out of business school, which is a weird thing to say, talk about imposter syndrome, was at Walmart Corporation. And they had a culture. And so maybe we can get to how do you build a team culture around this idea? Maybe not of being sarcastic, but of doing the flip where we, the whole company is like, there's never any problems, there's only opportunities. So I have an opportunity to regain half the business we just lost or I have an opportunity to figure out how to restore a database that I just completely destroy that half the company depends on or not speaking from experience at all.

But.

So I, I'm a big fan of those little mental shifts because so much of the self talk that we have, like you said, like you wouldn't, would you talk to your best friend that way or would you let somebody, somebody talk to somebody else you love? That way is often very critical. So switching a blessing on the way. This is an opportunity for me to learn, for something else to come into my life or those little things that, that kind of take away the emotional punch to what's happening. How do you go and build a team or switch the culture at the place you're at if it focuses maybe more on the negative?

Yeah, absolutely. I've been in situations like that. After ZipRecruiter, I was recruited away from there and that and I, I had a few other executive roles before I quote unquote retired and just focused on being a mom, a consultant and author. And I inherited teams that I had one team where the average tenure was something like 10 to 12 years. They'd been there for a long time. A lot of ingrained things in there. In my definition, wasn't really much culture. And when I talk about culture, I'm really talking about the connected connectivity of the people and the what that vibe you're walking into versus just working. And so I think some of it is you can teach people. I think the teaching people how to flip things works in my experience works best one on one team dynamic. Sometimes it's just about, look, we're not brain surgeons here. Nobody's gonna die. Yes. World is not going to end. It's yes, we wanna do a great job. We want to please the clients. Cause I was always on the client success side of things. We want things to work. Things aren't always gonna work perfectly. It's not that serious. And some, I think that's. It aligns with kind of what we're talking about, with how you shift things. It's really de. Escalating the stress. It's, it's not that serious. We'll handle it. It's not the end of the world. Yes. We told our clients that this new technology was going to roll out on this date and oh crap, something went wrong. It's not going to happen now with our biggest enterprise clients, we have to go make those phone calls and some of it is just offering support. Right. I will happy, happily be on that call with you. I will also be happy to be the person that takes the blame, however that needs to happen. So I can, let's work on the messaging together. And if you need to point a finger at somebody, point it at me so that you're not holding that stress in your shoulders. Because there's literally nothing we can do about it other than do our best to communicate and gain some understanding. So what is the point of stressing ourselves out about it? So sometimes it's knowing your audience with how to talk to them about flipping it. And I've had one on one conversations with people explaining that very flip and example I gave you where it felt like they were open to it and it would be beneficial to them. And others have had the conversation so many times of thankfully, we're not brain surgeons and making an error doesn't mean deaths for somebody where we'd be having a different conversation. But that's not where we're at. And so let's find a way to handle this without stress and just having very real conversations of stress, negative stress is not healthy. You've got a family at home, you've got a life outside of work. I don't want you leaving this office less healthy than when you walked into it because of things that went on. So let's find a way to manage this because at the end of the day, your life and your health are the most important things. So let's focus on that. Right. So I think it, it really depends, but having a culture where you can not take yourself so seriously and modeling that for employees I think is really important. Yes. Do I want people to respect me? Absolutely. But respect is earned and respect a lot of times comes from that connection. And so if I don't take myself too seriously and I don't crumble to the floor when something goes wrong, they're less likely to do so as well. And it works a lot better.

Yeah, Right on. I I've heard you say the word role model explicitly or implicitly throughout our conversation, and I wanted to point that out because I think it is such an important thing to highlight, especially when you're trying to be like a lightning rod for stress, where it's like, hey, like, we can either. I just love that you, you're with the pe. Your people and your style of leadership side by side being like, we can figure this out or hey, quit beating yourself up over this. That's rinse. And I think that's a takeaway for people listening is a lot of times, at least in my career with leadership, the best leaders are the people that will get their hands dirty with you when it gets tough or when you don't know what to do and are not going to send you into the world alone and potentially like vulnerable. Right. To get picked off. Yeah, I try not to do a war analogy or gross animal outside the pack thing, but sent to. To get beat up by other people in the organization or outsider otherwise. So that's super, super awesome.

And in a lot of ways, when you, when you're talking about people's personal journeys and leading themselves through that like that I think is again, especially for women and probably to a large percentage to men who are parents, I think as well can be very difficult to focus on something that is just you because you have these little responsibilities or not so little, depending on ages as parents, you have these other responsibilities that you are generally thinking of first, generally putting yourself last. And so I, I always try to recommend to people to really. And I was listening to your podcast today and you hit on. It's important to know the what that you're chasing. And literally chapter oh no, two or three of my book is Discover the why is so important. But there's one crucial piece of that, right? Because there are so many goals we go after that it could be easy for someone listening to be like, I just want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year. That's pretty simple. Why do I need to sit down and think about a why? Yes, you do. Because you're gonna have difficulties on that path. And if you haven't developed your whys, it's gonna be a lot easier for you to give up on it when things get really tough. But so I always Recommend at least 3 whys and at least one of them has to be outside of yourself. And so that's what we're talking about with leadership. Right? Like, you don't want your employees to feel like they're out on Their own. You're gonna roll up your sleeves, you're gonna be in it with them. They're not alone. And so you and they both know the work affects multiple people. When it's comes to your own personal ambitions and whatever you're going after having that foresight to see the ripple effect, who's going to be impacted? Who is part of your why? How are you going to help someone else? By accomplishing this thing makes you more accountable to finishing it, especially if you're less likely to do it just for yourself. It's really easy to give up on a goal when you're the only one affected. But if you have this sense of responsibility because you can see, oh my gosh, for me, writing this book could help so many people. I, I, and I hope that's that is my dream is it can help people to not fall into imposter syndrome without realizing it or whatever the situation is. So when times are tough, when I was like, there are no words left, I would give up because I can't give up on these people out there that can hopefully learn from this and not make the same mistakes I did multiple times and find their way forward to fulfillment and purpose. I can't give up on that. Right. Only thought about myself and my desire to write a book. It might have been easier to give up on when I was like, there are no words left. You know what I mean?

A hundred percent that why question why we do anything is so important. And the jobs that I've loved and the teams that I've loved. The why has been very. It's communicated regularly. It's on the forefront. When times are good or when times are bad, we know what the mission is. It's not just when things are going sideways or this is what's this is for other people. Or was that before?

Yeah.

I'm not sure if you ever heard of the, the stonemason analogy. I'm sure it's called something else where.

Yeah, tell me more.

There's two people that work as stonemasons, right?

Yeah.

And you walk by the first person cutting stones, like, what do you do for a living? And they're like, I cut stones.

Yes.

And then you go to the second person and you go, what do you do for a living? Is like, I cut stones to build cathedrals or pyramids or there's a bunch of different versions of it. But like that sense of this is contributing to something greater than myself and something that benefits the community or society or that big could be faith in God. Whatever it is, something outside of yourself is so true to be so important, so that when it rains, you still want to cut stone.

Exactly. And I. I absolutely have heard that story. It took me a second for my brain to catch up. But okay, it's so funny. Cause I was thinking about. I'm sure you've seen some of the Qualtrics employee engagement surveys. Maybe. But over the last. At least last few sets of them, if not the last several years, one of the biggest things that comes out of those surveys is employees are less likely to leave a company. They're more likely to feel engaged and satisfied if they feel connected to the company's, the organization's mission, if they feel connected, like what they're doing connects to this mission and vision. And it's clear. And they trust their leaders. And so to me, it's crystal clear that this whole great resignation thing that everyone has talked about for the last few years is so closely tied to everything you're talking about on your podcast and seeing that bigger picture and feeling connected to it and feeling tied to it in some way and like they're contributing to it. And so I think it's so important for leaders to hear podcasts like yours and to understand it's not. This isn't just a millennial or a Gen Z thing. This is everyone. We all, let's face it, we all went through a traumatic event. Um, and most of us had a blast on TikTok with it and with our family. And in a lot of ways, there were so many blessings that came from 2020, 2021, and the time at home and all of that. But it was a traumatic event. Let's be real with ourselves. Like, we may have found a way to have fun with it and to pull blessings out of it, which is fantastic. But it really, Events like that in your life really shift your perspective. And for a lot of people who had the opportunity to work from home for the first time, it just threw their work life balance on center stage to be like, whoa, hang on, let's readjust here. Cause there's no more work, me, home, me, because I'm kind of in the same place now. And so there's this sense of people, I. I think people wanting to bring the whole them to everything that they're doing and treated as a whole human being in everything that they're doing. And that's really, at the end of the day, what we're talking about with these leadership concepts. And it goes into leading yourself as well. But it is just so Vitally important that today's leaders of people really understand and prioritize this softer, quote unquote, softer skills. I wish we could find another name for them because it just makes it sound less important in a way. But when they're the most important skills that you need as a leader, you have to draw those connections. You have to help people find purpose in what they're doing in some way, shape or form. You could be selling plastic cups, paper cups, I shouldn't say plastic anymore, paper cup or whatever. But people can feel connected in some way, shape or form to the vision, the mission, the values of the company. They could be perfectly happy doing what they're doing. And if they're not, it's okay. A job is not a marriage. It's not until death do you part. People move on. No longer do we stay around for 20, 30, 40 years and get a gold pen at the end of it. That's just not how it works. And we should be encouraging people to chase their dreams and to accomplish things and gain the skills they need for what the next right step is for them. Right, Absolutely.

I was going to say that the pandemic, if you haven't, like, as a leader, as someone just leading your life, because my belief is everyone's a leader, whether you have the formal responsibility or not. Like, you have the ability to change the environment, the world around you, have that impact with everyone around you. That's my secret belief. For this podcast.

Yep.

I'm with you during the PO or during the podcast. During the pandemic, if you didn't answer the why for your employees or for yourself, you thought, why? Why am I doing anything that I was doing before? If. If you're on that busy train, if you have that imposter syndrome inner critic that had a voice really loud, that you covered it up with stuff, like doing stuff, and the whole world slows down.

Yep.

And you're like, what am I doing? Like, why am I not never seeing my family? I used to. I would joke around that early on in my career, I had vampire hours where I would go into work before the sun came out, work in a building that had no windows, and then leave when the sun was down.

Yeah.

And that's not healthy. Like, we need sunlight and relation, friendships, relationships, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I just, I love highlighting that. You need to figure out why, or people are going to ask why and they're not going to be engaged in what they're doing if their why doesn't align with the organization's. Why or your why there should be win situations. Anyways, I feel like getting out of soapbox here I am pumped out same.

No.

Well Mandy, I have absolutely loved this conversation. I think we all deal again. Do you? Everyone deals with imposter syndrome. I think the things that we talked about today about listening to that, trying to figure out have that self awareness so you can then lead better in all areas of your life is something I really loved about it first. Where can people follow up with you if they want to check out this cool book that you wrote?

Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. They can always go to my website. It's mandyshanielle.com and I'm all over social, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, Facebook, what have you. And it's all just my full name which I'm sure you'll spell out in the show notes. Mandy's pretty easy. Chandel, not so much, but happy to connect with anybody on any or all of the platforms. And if they are interested in my book, there is a shop tab on my website where they can see see all the various places they can buy it, but you can pretty much purchase it any of the normal places you buy books. Yeah. And just so they know, I do donate 10% of net proceeds to a handful of nonprofits that are near and dear to my heart. If that's something important to them, they can feel good about that. While again, I try to help people. If you can't, just do it for yourselves, but do it for the feel good. If you love donating.

I'd love that. That's awesome. Please do check out the book because as you heard today, Mandy is awesome. So I really much enjoyed it. Andy, one last question for you. What did you love about our conversation today?

Oh my goodness. I. I just love that we could both nerd out on all things leadership and mindset and self leadership. And I think the most important thing, and I hope every one of your listeners walks away with this one of many shared beliefs that we have, which is that you don't have to have a specific title or role in your life to be a leader. Every single one of us has opportunities to be a leader in every area of our life. And when it comes down to chasing after your goals and your purpose and your fulfillment, you've gotta be in the driver's seat. And so learning how to hone your leadership style with yourself is so important and you're worth it. And quite literally, if you can really focus on those things, you can do anything in your life. So I just absolutely love that we share so many of the same perspectives on this and are trying to help people unleash success and fulfillment in their life. So it's just been an absolute pleasure. Sean, thank you so much.

Oh, awesome. Thank you. Oh, and that we, Mandy and I, are cheering you on. So hope you loved this episode, and we'll see you next time on the Meaningful Revolution podcast. Thanks, Mandy.

Thanks, Sean. Sa. Sam. Sa. Sam.