Sports Psychology Podcast- Joy, Growth and Impact with Michael Ceely, MFT

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Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. This week we're highlighting a episode that I was on, Mike Seeley's Sports Psychology podcast. And if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you might be familiar with Michael Seeley. If not, we've had some wonderful conversations about mindset and how to really apply the athletic performance mindset to anything you're doing in life. But in this episode, he's interviewing me to learn about high performance coaching and exploring my philosophy of joy, growth and impact. So it's a really great conversation. So great. I wanted to highlight it this week week for y'.

All.

And if you liked this episode or you enjoyed this show, you might also like Mike Seeley's show. So in the show notes below, you can find his podcast and I highly recommend you go and subscribe to it because it's pretty dang amazing. So without further ado, here is my interview with Michael Seeley or Mike Seeley interviewing me, or however that works out. But enjoy this episode and we'll talk to you guys in a little bit. Okay?

Welcome to the podcast. I'm super excited today to have my guest, Sean Butner on the show. He's a good personal friend of mine. He's a great coach. I turned to him for advice. He's got a great perspective and really always good to talk with him. We're going to start out today by talking about Certified High Performance coaching, which is what Sean does. Sean, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, Michael. It's really an honor to be here. As always.

As always, yes, it's always a pleasure to talking with you. We speak on a regular basis and always enjoy your insights and I think you add a lot of value to my life, so I want to share that with the folks out there. Tell us about high performance coaching, specifically the Certified High Performance Coaching certification. The program. I don't think a lot of people know too much about it. I'm a fan of it. But explain to the viewers and listeners what that is.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Certified High Performance coaching is a science based process. It's research, facts, result getting essentially. So there's a process that helps people beat whatever normal in their life without damaging their health and relationships along the way. So if you've ever known anyone or you've been the person that has achieved all your dreams and felt miserable while you did it, it's probably because there were some type of unsustainable habits or practices that you focus so much on work that you neglected your spouse and now That's a mess. Or you skip lunches and workouts and now your house a mess. So that's generally what high performance is getting after and really chasing that feeling of joy, of confidence, exuberance in life from living into your best self. So there's a lot of finding your authentic way through life and doubling down on what that is for yourself.

I love it. That's great. So it's. It sounds like it's like a holistic approach to. To life, like noticing that you have these kind of domains of your life and if one of them is off, it's going to affect your overall joy. And also what I'm hearing you say is like paying attention to your feelings and emotions like this, they're going to tell you, like, the truth is going to come out. If you're working at a job that you're really miserable at and you're trying to convince yourself that, yeah, it's great, or if there's an issue somewhere in a relationship and you're in denial, that's going to show up just in your overall. There's going to be signs that something's off. Right?

Definitely. There's always a sign. And as you pointed out, it is holistic. A lot of times if you're struggling with your productivity and effectiveness at work, it's those other areas, your health, your relationships, your personal life, or your general, like, wellness that are impacting it. If you are really struggling in your relationships, it could just be that work got really hard all of a sudden because half the team got fired, you're overwhelmed. And so it's being aware of those moments and also making the most of it. Like, there's a phrase that we share a lot called honor the struggle. And it's not that you're always going to be happy and confident, but high performers are really skilled at not dwelling in those types of situations. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, you're doing things to get you back on track. If you're feeling like it's too much or that maybe you don't feel capable, you're going to go out and acquire those skills and do the work to make sure that you can follow through and do what you got to do.

Got it. So it's not that you're never going to feel overwhelmed ever again. You're not going to have this perfect Zen just through your program. But it's. It's more of just noticing that when you do feel that overwhelmed, which is inevitable from time to time, is that you have actions that you can take that are queued up. Here's my plan for when things are tough, when there's the struggle. So honoring the struggle is there's always something to do in the good times and the bad times and taking some positive actions.

Yeah, absolutely. We, as a program believe in the agency of people. And my personal belief as a coach is I've coached dozens of folks over the years is we often discount the amount of control we have in a situation. And so a really great reason to hire a coach is to help you figure out those actions. And sometimes when you're in it, you just can't see it. Sometimes you can see what the actions you have to take, but you're afraid to make that jump. Having someone guide you through to be like, no, it's going to be okay. Let's go through all the things that could go wrong. What are you going to do about it? And let's address that fear behind it or let's address that. That clarity aspect to get you back on track.

Yeah. So really, the coach is like your outside eyes or a perspective outside of yourself. Because when you're in it, you may be feeling all these emotions because we're human. Right. So if you're feeling overwhelmed or discouraged, you may not be able to see some of the solutions, or like you said, you see the solutions, but the fear is keeping you from taking action. So a coach can say, hey, here's how you can get out of it. Because the coach is not feeling those intense emotions, has that rational mind and has your best interest at heart and has the experience working with a lot of people to say, hey, here's your prescription. Here's what you need to do. I got you, of course, always checking in with that person, if that makes sense. And I wonder, do you have an intuitive sense? And I know, I feel this as a therapist and as a coach of just listening to someone's words, hearing their story, and just getting this real clear, almost like an intuitive message of this person needs to hear these words from me. Do you get that?

Sometimes I do. I'm always, again, listening for agency. Hey, I'm having a lot of trouble at work, and this one person on my team is making my life miserable. We all can relate to that. I've been in that situation. And the agency problem there is that you're not taking responsibility for your role in there. And I know that's a little forward to say on a podcast and out of context, too, but it takes two people to be in a relationship, work relationship, personal relationship, so what can you do to make that relationship improve? So I'm always listening for agency. I'm always listening for confidence. A lot of the work that I do, I've helped, like, educators and therapists start their own business. And a lot of it is, I don't know if I could be a business person. And it's, what are you really worried about? You can meet with people, you add value. You're helping people, like, just have to complete that circle of. Here's the checkout page. Let me pay me for my services or what that might be. But it's a. I don't think I can assume this role, or I don't know if I have this skill to be successful here. And so helping people work through that confidence, part of what holds them back a lot of times. Another thing that I really love to listen for is how excited people are. Right. Like, for me, that I have this personal flag and I. This is why I look for it in my coaching. When you feel dread about something, when you are, ah, it's Monday, I don't want to go to work, that's a call to action, to change something. Right. Something's not going right in your life, and that's either how you're thinking about the situation. It's either maybe that situation isn't the best for you in that moment. You know, there's a whole bunch of different paths that can go down, but that's a call to action. So when people have that sense of dread, like, that's a really good place to dig in and explore. And especially like you mentioned, with the coach, who's looking out for your best interest. Because I think that relationship, too, is really special, because unlike a family member or maybe a mentor in an organization, there really isn't an agenda other than for you to feel more confident, to feel more joy, happiness, and overall wellness in your life. So if that's the focus, and that's really another great reason to work with a coach. But. So those are. Yeah, those are the three things that I look for.

Yeah. Love that. It's like really the philosophy of a call to action. Right. Because so many people, and myself included, probably you, too, where you can get stuck, you're like, oh, I'm dreading this. Or there's this task you have to do, a person you need to talk to or sort something out or do your taxes or whatever it is. And so there's a feeling that comes up. And so I love that. So it's like every feeling really can be a Call to action so that if you're feeling an overwhelm. Okay, what's my action? It's not to continue to feel overwhelmed or put it off or self soothe or go out drinking or something like that. It's more of, okay, I need to talk with somebody. I need to talk to my best friend and sort this out. How am I feeling? I need to get some clarity. I need to take maybe a couple of small actions, maybe a I can look at some jobs out there or polish up my resume. But like always taking some sort of a positive action is great. I love that for just your philosophy and how the certified high performance coaching works. It's very action oriented and focusing on personal power and agency. That's awesome. I love it. I was looking at your website and you have this. I guess it's like a tagline which is joy, growth and impact. And I know you're really optimistic, positive person. So that makes sense that you would choose those words and but I want to hear from you like what is, what does that mean to you? And why did you choose those three words?

Yeah, I believe in general as just a general framework for what people want. It's that people are generally seeking more happiness, more, more progress in their life and they want to matter. Those particular words, I guess were drilled into me growing up. So my parents were really great at taking really tough situations and making jokes about it and just taking the seriousness out of it. My mom had breast cancer when I was in like kindergarten. So it's like late 80s. So like the treatments are much harsher then than they are now. Technologies improve so much. She's making jokes about her hair falling out and make jokes about us staying with our grandparents and stuff while she was doing the chemo treatment and really sick. And so that philosophy, my dad's the same way, but like the philosophy of if it's intense, you can find the funny in it to make it a little bit lighter and a little bit more manageable. So I have a lot of memories like that growing up of family has a financial crisis. Okay, we'll just find a way to look back and laugh at it essentially was one of the phrases my mom used a lot. So I really do believe that going back to that personal agency, if there's something in your life that you are not super enthused about, there usually is a way for you to find the levity, the humor, the fun in it, look at all the different angles to that level of happiness. But it can help it help you cope with it. As you're working through, right. It's not to just paste over it with happiness, but as a way to. To manage it going forward. Growth. My dad was always instilled in me and my brother. Like, he. Growing up, he was a construction worker, contractor, like, handyman. And so he's like, whatever. I don't care what you do, what you guys do, but whatever you do, give it your all. When you're doing it, don't slack off. And. And so he was really supportive of me being interested in computers, even though he had no clue into that growing up. But as long as I was giving it my all and showing up for it, he. He was super supportive. And what that gave me was this really weird career trajectory that we can get into here in a little bit. So I'll tease that a little bit. But that experience growing up led to a lot of really good things in my adult life. And I think, too, that when people are most unhappy in their lives, it's when they don't feel that growth.

Right.

When you've plateaued in your career, when the relationship is fun as it was when you first started it, there's a maintenance thing. A little bit of spark's gone. And that's just because it's in maintenance mode. It's not progressing, it's not growing, it's not getting deeper. That's why I think it's really important in my business to focus on that growth aspect and then impact. I feel like there's so much we do that we do for ourselves, our families that can have an impact to provide for the kids, to have the roof over your head, to be a responsible citizen out in the world. So that's impactful. But it's also what. When you're working, when you're doing your craft, your passion, you want to know that it's helping other people. There's a lot of research that shows that those acts of service are a component of lifelong happiness. But I've always. And I was recently moving my dad out of his house, and I found these little, like, books that I made in, like, grade school of what my life's going to be over. And so in fourth grade, I'm like, I just want a life that helps people. And it's leaving. And it's really weird to go through that and be like, oh, I guess it started. This is why I'm a coach. I just want to help people. And. And helping people is just having an impact with, oh, you need help chopping onions? Because we're all Having a group dinner or hey, we need to go do this fundraiser to solve this community problem. Like, that sense of impact, I think is super important. That's why it's important to me. What's important in my business is it's that happiness component.

That's awesome. So way back in fourth grade, that's a really cool story. So you're finding these little mementos. Oh, I guess I was thinking this way all the way back then. So it's the joy, growth and the impact. So you gotta be joyful, like you said. You can. Having that sense of humor, I think is really like a lot of agency of taking control with some humor. Not going to let the situation bum me out. That could be helpful. The growth, you're always. You're going to get bored if you're not growing. Even if it's hard, you ultimately get more satisfaction out of the growth and then the impact. It just feels better to impact people in a positive way. And I think that we don't really realize how much of an impact we have on people on a daily basis. A quick story here. I was, because we both love coffee, right? So I was getting coffee the other day and I was sitting with a friend and my coffee got cold and I was like, oh, man. Like, I don't want to ask for a refill. It'll be complicated. And I went up to the counter and the barista said, I'll just get you a new cup. And she gave me a brand new cup of coffee. And for her, she just kind of, hey, take it easy, walk away. But I was. That like, made my day. Like, how refreshing was that? So my point being here is like, we impact people on a daily basis, either positively or negatively, and we a lot of times don't realize that. So I love that. The joy, growth, impact, that's. That's a great moniker philosophy there. So I want to dive into your story. I know your story, but viewers and listeners don't necessarily know your story. It's a very interesting one. It starts from a computer background and there's a trajectory there. You were working at Walmart as a software engineer. You worked at Apple. So tell us, I guess basically how you got into software engineering, how you got this job, and then how you came to be a certified high performance coach.

Right on. Yeah. So it actually starts before that Walmart job. So I went to school for management and I have a master's degree in information system, which is the management side of technology. Okay. But going back to what I was talking about with my dad, you just get 100% to whatever you're interested in. I had been tinkering with computers since I was like 8 years old. I go over to people's houses and there was a guy in our apartment building growing up that I'd go and swap out graphics cards and stuff. And that was a thing like upgrade memory. And I just loved technology. I love being around it. And so going to school, I'm like, I don't know what I want to do. I wanted a school that was really great at computer science and management. I figured, like, business runs everything. It'd be really good to have those basic skills. Eventually I'd like to run my own business. And so that sets my, like, education up to Walmart. So I had a couple like a year of programming in high school and two semesters of programming in grad school. And I got the programming job at Walmart. Right? Not traditional computer science degree, which is important because when I got there, I had imposter syndrome right from the get go. There's all these technical people. Like, I had some good. I had really great interpersonal skills, figuring out team problems and stuff. And like, how to navigate, who to ask when somebody said no, like, those type of things. Like, I think that my schooling helped with the organizational navigation part, but the actual technical part, the first two years of that job, I never said no, hey, we need someone to do this really stupid task, put me in. I need to prove myself. If and what happened was I would say yes to so many things that the work that I was assigned would get neglected. Right. And I think this happens a lot, especially as a young person in a job. I think it's really good to always do the grunt work, right? And just show that you're not above it because there's weird things about that. But there's also a point in time where you get to the situation I was in where it's like, I have three times the amount of workload than anyone else on my team that I should be responsible for is I'm not even taking care of the things that I'm supposed to do because I keep saying yes to things. And I just felt crushed. I felt that imposter syndrome never went away because it was being proven in that I was struggling in my job because I had the workload. I just remember being super stressed to the point where there's this point in my life was the only time where I would go to bed, dream about going into work. Oh my God, Like, I'd Skip the commute. But I'd walk in the door, I'd sit at my desk and I would actually like fix problems.

Wow.

I got stuck on a bug for two weeks, went to, finally fell asleep at 3 o' clock in the morning, get up at 6. So I'm like exhausted. But in that three hour period I went and I like went in the code and I'm like, there's where the bug is. And I woke up and I'm like, that can't be. And I got into work and was like fixed, worked.

Wow.

There you go. But that's how like singularly focused I was. And so you do that for a while, you get burnt out. Right? That's just, that's a perfect.

Yeah. Wow, that's intense. I had, I didn't know that. I know your story, but I had not heard that you were actually dreaming about. And you figured it out in the dream. That's, that's a mysterious time at your job there. So yeah, of course that's going to lead to burnout, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And I think like other folks in that type of situation, if you've ever been in that situation, there comes a time when for me it was like something needs to change. I feel like I'm like 24. I shouldn't feel this worn out about. I should be excited about life. And I'm already into the drudgery part of it. So that was like when I'm like, I don't love, I really don't look forward to the day. I dread it. And again, that's that why that trigger is so important. Something needs to change. I did all the things that a good nerd would do because that's definitely me and that's do a bunch of research. What am I stressing out about? How do you handle stress? I started getting into some financial management pieces because I had a ton of student loans on top of all of that. And that's when I found high performance. I started getting into that material. I went to a seminar called High Performance Academy run by my guy, Brendan Burchard. So shout out to Brendan. And during that he asked me a question. And the question is, and I encourage everyone listening now to answer this for yourself. So get out some notes or journal and think about this. But question was, are you living your truth? And I love that question because it is so broad and I feel like almost everyone at a very gut level knows that at a yes or no. And the work comes from exploring no I'm not or yes, I am like, and it's a really great question on either side of that coin, because if you're not living your truth, getting the clarity on what that would look like and help you shift and move into that, if you are living your truth and you're really feeling really good about it, the question then is like, how can you double down on that to enhance and get to that next level of contribution of service with that part of your life? So I answered it. I definitely said no. I nearly fell out of my chair.

Yeah.

But I got that. I did the work and did the clarity in that room. And so we're at this hotel and, like, out on the. In the parking lot, it's like Santa Clara, California. So it's sunny, it's 80 degrees, it's perfect. The sun's going down. I'm in this parking lot and I call my mom. I'm like, hey, okay, I need to make a change. I'm gonna. I had an idea for a business, so I'm gonna go jump on that. I'm gonna leave Walmart. I've been there for five years, which is a pretty big scary thing. I've been mulling it over for a while anyways, but.

But.

And my mom's. Thank God. Like, it got me off guard. She's, yeah, you really change. You haven't really been yourself. You really needed a change. Like, thanks, Mom. Like, you could have told me before. And she's. Actually, I couldn't. You needed to figure that out for yourself, to her credit.

Wow.

And when you do those, take those big risks, sometimes I believe that the universe conspires to help you. Because an hour after that call with my mom, my old college, My best friend, my buddy, gives me a call. He's living in Oakland and he's, hey, man, like, I have this extra room. You should come live out here for free for as long as you need. And I'm like, okay. Like, you realize, like, this happened at the exact right moment. I'm going to go back and I'm creating a plan. Like, you can say no up until this point, but just let me know. Come out here. So that got me, like, two months, quit Walmart, packed my car, moved to the west coast, kind of like a. Like a movie. Started a business that didn't go the way that I wanted, but I felt like I was in control of my life. I felt like I was living my life. There's a sense of excitement, there's a sense of when I'm telling my story. And I encourage you to think about this too, all the listeners, when you tell your story to your future kids or friends or family members, are you going to say, I played it safe and did the safe thing? Or did you say, I followed my heart, I followed what my intuition was saying and took a chance on myself to see what happened. And that's a big question. And everyone has different risk tolerances and stuff, but for me, when I was young and didn't have attachments, like, that was really good. And that all that work, though, for that business, that fail led to an interview at Apple.

Let me, let me pause you real quick here, Sean. So you had actually started and leaving Walmart, you started your first business right after that.

Yeah.

And that. That didn't go the way you wanted it to, is what you're saying. Which can be. That can be pretty scary. Right. So that if you're taking the big leap, there is that chance it's not going to be successful. And then it wasn't. Was that scary for you, too? Hey, like, I've gone out here. I tried the business didn't work at that point. How are you feeling?

So, honestly, I think entrepreneurship in general is a kind of polarity between feeling really stoked and making things happen and then fighting the need to be in the fetal position in your bedroom thinking that you screwed up your life. Right. So at the end of when I'm like, okay, this business isn't working. I need to figure something out. I maxed out my credit cards. I think I had a week's left of cash in the bank. Like, it was pretty dire. And through the guy that was living, he. We'd worked at a. I interned at a place in the Bay Area like, a couple years before. Like, before during college. So I had some mutual friends that had a buddy that worked at Apple. I'm like, hey, we're doing things in Python, which is the language I didn't know yet. But that experience of saying yes to everything at Walmart built the confidence that, like, I can build stuff in Cobol, JavaScript. Like, you throw any programming language at me, give me a week, I can figure out the basic building Roblox. And that confidence came from that part of the story. So, like, looking back at everything that I just shared, it all lines up to this moment here. I have a business that failed, but I had a website. I was doing video production stuff like Thought Videos. I was really terrible. I always looked like a deer in headlights. That's all part of the journey, too. Yeah, it's funny. So I Get to the interview. And I passed the technical hard enough just studying for a week on how to do this. I'm sitting with the interviewing manager and he's, hey, is there anything else we should know about you? And I felt like the interview went okay. Yeah, started a business. I'm still going to try to maybe work as a side hustle. And he's, oh, tell me about your business. And like, I did financial videos to help people get out of student debt. That's what that business was. To, again, try to help people. Something I was dealing with. And he goes, okay. He's walking through and he's, oh, you did these videos. Oh, you did the lighting. Oh, you did all this yourself? And he's like, impressed. Thankfully, he's, I'm gonna save you an embarrassment. I'm not gonna play any of these videos while you're here. I'm like, thank you, because I'm about to die. Again, not the best videos ever in the world. But he's like, okay, you know what? You're starting on Monday as soon as we get the paper run through. So that work, that failure, and the thing that didn't work out the way was the building block to the golden goose. Like, working at Apple had been a dream of mine for a while. So since I was involved in technology, like, I wanted to work at Microsoft, Apple, like one of those types of places. And it all lined up to make that happen. And that's when I. When the universe conspires to help you. I think that's another piece of evidence that I have in my life that really, I think, believes it or makes me believe in it.

Wow, that's awesome. What I really love about that story, Sean, is that you did tell the truth. Like, hey, is there anything else that, you know, we should know about you? And that was a risky thing to say that, like, oh, either he's going to think I suck at making videos or maybe. But it. So it sounds like intuitively you shared that because that showed initiative, that shows something unique about you. And then. Is it, yeah, you're starting on Monday, right? Everything that we do in life, I like to think of it like laying bricks on a foundation. Like, you're constantly building this brick building. I like bricks because it's every little step you do every day and makes a difference. So that if you're pivoting, switching careers or going to start your own business or whatever it is, you've already built a lot of parts of your foundation. It's not like you're Starting from zero, if you pivot and switch to something, you've got all these skills, you've got the videos, you've got this and that. And I think a lot of people don't really realize that, oh, if I switch to something, I'm going in at zero and I have nothing to base it off of. And that's just not true for really for anybody unless you're like a one year old. Right. So that's a fantastic story. I love that.

Yeah.

I want to talk about just burnout in general. Burnout in general because I think there's so many people out there who are feeling at least like a sign of burnout. Not they may not be totally, totally burnout, but it's a really common affliction, I think. And what would you say to people who are feeling some signs of burnout? First of all, what are some signs of burnout? Okay. And what would you say to someone, maybe someone you're coaching and they're describing these sort of symptoms of burnout?

Yeah.

So what are some signs and how would you address that with somebody?

Burnout, I believe is a consistent feeling of overwhelm, of dread, of disengagement. So if you're feeling yourself pulling back, that that can really be consistently over time too. I think that's the other part. It isn't like you had a bad day and you're just stressed over one situation at work. It's like when that stretches over a week, over a month, over a couple months, over a year, that's more of a indication of burnout. So signs, like actual signs for burnout that I've seen in my career and in coaching clients, people that are live or die by process, basically trying to control things. So like you're overwhelmed, you don't want to be there, there's too much work for you to do anyways. And someone's, hey, can you do this quick two minute thing for me? And it's, did you go fill out the 10 forms? Did you go get it notarized at the other building? And like you have this big process to do this really simple thing where like the effort to get approval for the thing is way more than the actual action. So that happened to me at Walmart, dealing with teams that were on these doom projects where like there's a three month project that was going on, year three type thing.

That's what, that's a doom project. It's like something that's just not going right.

It's. Yeah, it's way over time. It's way over budget. People are overworked. And when I mean overworked, like people are working consistently like 60 to 80 hour weeks without breaks trying to get the thing set. But it's just so big and you just can't, you never feel like you can win. And so that's another type of attitude is like it doesn't matter what I do in my day to day, it's not going to impact anything in my life. Is another kind of sign that I look out for. And like coaching clients. Yeah, and coaching through burnout. I think it's really counterintuitive, but you got to get people to do more and that's the last thing that they want to do. And that more is scheduling nine hours of sleep. It's scheduling and following through on exercise. It's not doing the convenience foods, it's go get some salads, go get some greens, go get some fresh produce, get a home cooked meal, spend the time to cook a meal with your family or friends. These are the things that people tend to drop when they're feeling burnout too. Again from the definition. So getting people reconnected with those aspects of their life generally can basically build up the bank of, I want to say positive emotions. It's not really positive emotions, but excitement, zest for life that can help you manage. The less are the more structured or the more like dreadful things that you needed.

So it's burnout is almost something like there's this term in psychology called learned helplessness where you're, you feel powerless, like you don't have power, you don't have agency. Maybe an organization is structured in a way that you're just, you're trying to make an impact, but you're not. People aren't recognizing your efforts, all these things. So it's a sense of powerlessness. And so the burnout is literally like the flame that you have. The fire inside of you starts to go down or go so high that it just totally burns out. And like you say, it's hard when people are in that place of burnout to convince them to take more action because they're exhausted. Right. But that's the whole point. The very source of the burnout is that there's an action that needed to be taken a while ago and you didn't take it. And it's not that you're unsympathetic towards your client. You're giving them some tough love, like, wait, you've been at this job for how long and you're feeling this way and you haven't gotten out like that is on you or you've been skipping exercising for how long? That's the action. So again, that's what you do is you show people the action that needs to be taken to leverage the situation. Yeah.

On that. That learned helplessness, really, all those other areas, health, relationships, nutrition. If it goes back to. You don't feel like anything you do has an impact in your life. Going back to one of the three words. Yeah, you do have. Again, it's, it's, it is that agency of you can control going for a run after a long day at work. You can control the food that you're putting into your body. You can control the quality of time you have with people outside of work. So, yeah, I just wanted to point that out, that I didn't address it explicitly, but that's really what's going on. It's the. What do you have control on?

Right.

How are you exacting your agency on that for your happiness?

So, Sean, tell us a little bit about your Meaningful Revolution podcast. I know you launched that fairly recently, but you've been like, packing in the episodes. That's just been really amazing to watch, your growth. And how did you choose that name, the Meaningful Revolution?

Oh, that's a really good question. And first, I also want to shout out to you, Michael, you've been on the podcast twice now. Definitely have really helped me shape and grow and learn as a podcaster. So I just want to do a little bit of gratitude there real quick.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

So how did I come up with the Meaningful Revolution podcast name? So I was thinking about. So I've been working in my coaching business. I've been trying to think what are. What's like the through line through my life. And that's how did I get from not being a software engineering student to a software engineering job, to running a business, to another software engineering job at a prestigious company, to now being a coach. When you say all those words together, that doesn't make sense in a lot of ways. But I think that the through line to it was always trying to reach a next level of service, to reach a next level of fulfillment, to really find meaning in what I was doing at Walmart. There's a huge part of the time there where I was just super burnt out. I didn't feel like any of my work mattered to anyone. It felt a lot of, like, busy work or like, why is the. How does this connect to anything good in the world? And that's not a really Great thought. And that was part of why I'm like, I need to shift out of that particular job. And that's actually why I ended up leaving Apple was I felt like I could see how the code I was writing was making the product better and hearing people talk about the new os and oh, I did some stuff on that that felt really cool. But I love the mentorship in the jobs and that mentorship and those relationships were more meaningful than the work. And I'm like, oh, so it's fulfillment and meaning I've been trying to. That I've been seeking my whole life. And so the Meaningful Revolution is hoping to inspire people by listening to people nerd out about their passions, about what they find meaningful, to go out and do that for themselves. Like, at the end of the day, I would love for people to live a life that they've fulfilling, that they find meaningful. And that's where worth living. Yeah, that's where that comes from.

I got it. Yeah, I love that. Really. So meaning meaningful has to have some meaning. And the revolution is. Means a change, some sort of a change. Doesn't have to be a total revolution, perhaps, but it'll some sort of a change, some sort of a shift. And sometimes a big change is really good. That's the Meaningful Revolution podcast. Everyone should check this out. You've been having some really amazing guests on there and just a lot of great knowledge from a lot of people. So it's so cool to see the growth in that podcast. Sean Bunner, we got to wrap things up here. I could talk with you forever. This was some great stuff. Just such an inspiring story. Just listening to your trajectory and you said, maybe it doesn't make sense, but to me it makes perfect sense. Everything seems to be really lined up and the joy, the growth, the impact, I think you embody that and I think that anyone who works with you as a coach will be totally impacted by you and everything you do. And for listeners out there, we've known each other for a number of years, and I think that what you're doing is great. And it's always just real pleasure talking with you because you're. You are very optimistic. And I think that is one of, one of the huge strengths that you have. And I think it would be nice if more people were a little more optimistic in the world.

I really loved that conversation with Michael, and I hope you did too. If you'd like to listen to us talk even more in the show notes below or on the screen if you're on YouTube you can see one of the interviews I did of Michael and what he does. It's fantastic. So go check it out and we'll see you in the next episode of the Meaningful Revolution podcast.