Panel: Gender Bias Blues with Amy Courter | Others Over Self Leadership Conference

Foreign.

So thank you. So, so much fun. They all sat in the now this is going to be. They have to share mics. This. I don't know what will happen here. I'm just saying. All right. We have a terrific panel here. We're going to be talking about the gender bias blues and they're already talking. All right, Let me introduce each of them. Colonel Nancy Dakin, a 30 year Air Force Air National Guard veteran who started her career as an enlisted aircraft maintainer working on B1s and the A10s. She eventually received her commission, became a pilot and actually flew the B1 bomber and the A10 attack aircraft. She commit even it even says she even commanded the A10 fighter group at Selfridge Air National Guard Base before retiring in 2019. Yay. I asked them all for fun facts. I don't know if these are absolutely if these are real or not. No, but I didn't say that. I noticed. But Nancy is claustrophobic and acrophobic, yet she chose to be a pilot.

What?

So she now spends her time quilting, rescuing dachshunds and supporting fellow veterans. So this is Nancy. Yeah. And next is Tracy Longenbarger. Tracy wound her way through her career trying a number of different roles over time and over different geographies. You should ask her. She's worked for the Sheriff's Department, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler. By chance, her dad met someone who was a carpenter and they talked to Tracy about the industry. She began working in the trades in 2014 and she's currently a business agent and instructor and enjoys helping individuals find their niche and and their path in the industry. Her fun fact she lived in Hawaii and loves surfing. She has two dogs who enjoy are they dachshunds who enjoy going on hikes? Tracy reports that she loves soaking up the sunshine, doing outdoor activities like softball and riding her motorcycle. So this is Tracy and next is Johnsi. Nala Johnsi leads a group of systems engineers and program managers within Software Defined Vehicle Business Unit at General Motors. She's been proudly serving in the US Army Reserves from 2015 onwards as A92 A92 Alpha Automated Logistics and Supply Chain with a 457th oh My Goodness Fest a Detroit Army Corps of Engineers located in Livonia, Michigan. Previously, she led the execution of a $214 million infantry squad vehicle ISV contract for the Army. Her fun facts she leads and supports local schools projects in stem, especially encouraging young girls to explore the world of science. Mentoring and volunteering has been part of her life. She supports a Number of nonprofit organizations and is passionate about helping others. This is Johnsi. And last but not least, he did ask to be farthest away from me, so that's why. No, we went by last name Alpha. Just telling you, breeder. General Doug Odie Slocum. General Slocum was 35 years in the Air Force as a fighter pilot. Retired as the commander of Selfridge Air national guard base in 2019, serving almost 5. Serving almost 5,000 of Michigan's hometown heroes. He's known around the world for teaching leadership and safety, and he ran the national programs for suicide prevention and sexual assault prevention. His fun fact, he just competed in Stepping out with the Stars, the local version of Dancing with the Stars. And he has a trophy to prove it. Yes. Officially retired. That's right. Yes. And is there music now for him? No.

Okay.

All right. Yeah, we had been swapping, like, pictures of pets, so I think that would go right downhill real fast if I made him dance. So our title today for this panel, Gender Biased Blues. Did anyone else wonder why this was entitled Gender Biased Blues instead of Gender Biased Pinks? No. Okay. That was a valiant try at humor, but you see what I mean, though? Words, colors, like, right. Gender bias can be so subtle. So this afternoon, we wanted to listen and hear from the stories of those on the stage and encourage you to expand your thinking about gender bias. Are there ways we can be more aware of gender bias and make a difference in equity for others? Can we be an ally? Can we be more aware of those things that we do and think, good or not so good, that have impact on others as we live our lives? Even with the best of intentions, we can miss opportunities to improve the world around us. And that all starts with recognition of biases. So According to the U.S. national Judicial Education Program, the most prominent forms of gender bias are, one, stereotype thinking about the nature and roles of women and men, Two, devaluing what is perceived as women's work, and three, lack of knowledge of the social and economic realities of women's and men's lives. So, panelists, when you hear the term woman's work, what comes to mind for you? Has that impacted your career choices or that of your friends and family or those around you? What do you think of when you hear the term women's work? Jeopardy. Music, please.

I'll start.

Go, Tracy.

For me, it just means getting it done. I don't like, seriously women's work. We can do anything, so I don't care.

Let's get it done.

That's what it means. To me.

Good deal. All right.

All right.

So have you seen another question for the panel? Have you seen the categorization of women's work and men's work negatively affect men as well?

I can take that. I do think it does affect men officially because, you know, there might be, There might be men who wants to take care of kids, Right. It's not that they always want to go earn money, do all the good stuff, but, you know, they want to take care of their family too. So stereotyping that women can only take care of kids could be a big one. So I do think, and I have seen people getting negatively impacted through this.

Yes.

Yeah. Let's move to a new topic. The U.S. census Bureau called Mark cited March 14, 2023 as women's pay Equity Day. What does that mean? That means that to have pay equity with men who worked in the year 2022, women, white women specifically, would have to work all of 2022, plus January, February, and all the way through March 14th of this year. And the statistics are worse and far worse for women of color. So, panelists, have you been impacted by pay inequities? And so.

So in the military, you know, we have a pay scale, right? So you get paid the same based on your rank and your years in service, time and grade, things like that. So it's not a pay in equity as far as rank. If we're the same rank, we're getting paid the same. I might get a little more based on my job. So as a pilot, you get flight pay, things like that, hazard pay, we get the same bhp, all that. But when it comes down to the differences is the promotion, right? So as the Inspector General, probably 90% of the complaints I got were it wasn't a fair promotion. I wasn't considered for the promotion. So we're paid the same. But if you never get to that rank because you're being held down for some reason, that's where the pay inequity comes in. On the military side, I can't speak to the corporate side because I never worked in corporate.

I think Tracy's about to do that.

Actually, ours is the same except for military rank. It'd be journey person, foreman, superintendent, it's the same. They'll hold you back.

I can talk about the automotive industry. That is true, because I think women of color are paid less and the stats show it. And I know a lot of companies have put the policies in place, but we're still not there yet. The other way around. I talked to a young Gentleman who's working in the military reached out to me last week and he said, chauncey, I am a 4A. And I was like, what does 4Ameans? Because I've never heard about 4A. So it's basically, you have no edge college education, you're right out of the military branch and you're serving. And when I asked, you are a junior developer, you are a software developer, and you do amazing things in the army, why are you still a 4A? And the reason I'm telling the story is it's not just women of color, but also men then suffer through the differences. And long story short, going back, he has a bachelor's degree back from Sweden, which is a different country. And he did not understand that I have to go tell that I have a bachelor's degree, by the way. So I had to sit down and educate him. And it was like an eye opening moment. I was like, you're still an E4. You can go show your degree, get some ranks there and some money too, right? So the education piece is a little bit more important. Let it be women of color, men. But also we need to have some policies and some strict rules put in place to support women of color so that we can raise them.

I think once again, 35 years in the military, we had the military pay scales. And I probably will go back to what Nancy was talking about a little bit with the promotions. And where my mind went with that discussion was when we had female pilots, when they would get pregnant, would end up obviously not being able to fly high G performing ejection seat airplanes for a period of time. And how many of them ever successfully reintegrated back into a career, onto a career path in the military's mind? And I honestly can't think of one right now. Of course, small sample size, but yeah, there's a difference. Seriously, in gender.

Wasn't just pilots, that is most women I know in the military, once they have become pregnant, decided to start a family, they are invisible. That's a generalization. But it was pretty much true with all occupations.

Are there components though of the way the military handles it that we should be considering in industry more? So I heard John, see, as you were talking about, it's what, what positions people do. And in a large organization like General Motors, that's maybe easier to say. There are a number of people that are doing the same thing. So regardless of gender or color, we can look at that. What about smaller business or other organizations that may struggle more with that? Any thoughts?

I Think it goes back to, again to your earlier point, diversity, it is super important because everybody has a piece to bring back to the table. And in a smaller company, I believe it's easier to move fast, faster than a smaller company, than big companies. So if big companies are doing that, I think, you know, smaller companies can adapt it really fast. And you're going back to telling your stories. You have to tell your stories because making people aware of what is going on is, you know, you can be a part of the problem or part, be a part of solution and by telling your stories, you're being a part of the solution. So educating, you know, bringing the issues forward and making sure you see the end to end is super important. And for smaller companies, I believe it's again, educating, you know, you have to make sure you're learning, you're getting more diverse workforce and hearing each other out too. I think that will make a huge difference.

I have a crazy example. I was in an organization, entrepreneurial. So this was whatever 20 some years ago and we were growing. And one of the ways we started growing was by acquiring other organizations and I was leading all the technology in telecom. So if there were programmers, et cetera, they would end up on my team. And I will just say this the worst example I ever saw in the 20 years I was there and we bought a number of different organizations of having met the gender pay be wildly different, much lower for women, like 30 some percent lower was in a team that was led by a woman. I never expected it. So know that it all, it all happens in that person's head. Her thinking was, she literally said to me, because I thought, am I, I don't know these people yet, I don't know this team. But if they're all kind of doing the same thing, why do we, you know, at certain levels of experience, why is this so dramatically different? And the answer I got was that, you know, well, he's got five kids, he's taking care of his family and, and that was all I needed to hear. I asked about two people, got that answer and thought I have some work to do. Thankfully we were a small business, smaller business, really doing well. So I had some money to work with on salaries, but I had to redline some of those gentlemen too because they were making more than they should have at that time. It wasn't just that it was being given to men and not women. They were, you know, and I didn't take any away from them. But we redlined those, had others come up. I didn't lose a single one of the guys. The fascinating part was when I explained not, you know, in individual names, but I said, I really believe parity is important. Equity is important. And I'm not asking you to work any harder than all the people around you. And if that's the case, I shouldn't be paying you more than all the people around. And so let's get back to that. Didn't lose a single guy. Did not. And one guy was redlined for three years. Did not receive a raise. But he recognized, I think I helped him recognize. You already had that money, like, invested, you know, that's your raise over time. So it comes from the wildest places. It's not always, you know, it's our problem too, from a women's perspective as well. So. Yeah, good. Good stuff. So let me, let me talk about one other type of pay inequity, just in a fun story. Are members any members of Women in Defense here familiar with that? Go, Shelley. So I know. Thank you, sir. We'd greatly appreciate you. And so when I led that in the state, and I've forgotten what year in the state, 2008-2010, something like that. And one of the things that I recognized was we had a lot of men who came to our events. I loved it. In fact, I know the stats. During the two years I was present, we had 48% male attendance at Women in Defense meetings. Like, who would have thought? The Women's Leadership Conference. There they are. Okay, those were the three guys that I told to attend that. And they. I didn't realize there weren't going to be others.

So.

But, but we all got over that. It was good. But one of the things that I recognize is if they weren't members, which the guys weren't by and large, then they always paid extra because we always said, you know, if you're a member, you get a discount on the dinner, otherwise pay the extra 10 bucks. So one day I very glibly said, in fact, I was thinking at the time, oh, I probably should not have said that. I said, hey, I'm glad you're all here. And you know, look at the turnout. This is lovely. I really appreciate all the other thoughts in the room. We had different questions come up. This is great. And hey, our little way of handling pay and equity is that we're always charging you 10 bucks more for your meals because you're afraid to carry a Women in Defense card. And so some of the guys kind of looked at me and laughed. And then I thought, oh. And sure enough, I was kind of mobbed afterwards. And they came up and said, you know what? We all decided we're joining and we're always paying the extra 10 bucks. And so we became the largest chapter in the nation. Now think about women In Defense, Washington, D.C. we were larger than the D.C. chapter because all these men joined. And that's something. And as Odie has his hand up here as a member, we have to ask. We have to ask, right? So please make sure that we're doing the right things to include men. In fact, on all of our little signs, it said. And it was from the president before me did it. It would say, men, welcome to. On every single thing, which is really important. So good stuff. Hey, let's move on to another kind of set of topics. Some of the panelists here. Well, let me move to this. There have been studies done with women in the STEM field. Specifically, if you're familiar with the Hewlett Packard study that was done about 2014, 15. Somewhere in there, Hewlett Packard said, we want to make this different. We want to have more women in upper management and management and mid management and senior management. And what is wrong? So they commissioned an outside study. And that study looked at everything from job descriptions, which is a factor. Right. What does the job description say to the candidate pool who could be considered in these roles and to the interview questions and the interview process and all of that. And do you know what they found? They found that there wasn't anything necessarily wrong. It was that women, when then interviewed about the process, why didn't you. You're kind of in the cohort that we thought would go for this particular promotion. Why did you not apply? And what they said was, well, I probably only know about 60% of that next job, so I don't think I should apply. What did the men say? Yeah, I know, 20%. Yeah. All right, stop. So, yeah, but, yeah, yeah, watch out. Yeah. No man bashing. I put. I had directions for them, I want to tell you. And we failed already. So. But I think that the amazing thing was, yes, the men tended to say, oh, I know I don't have all those skills, but it's okay, I will learn them. So that's something for us to think about. Sometimes it's all between our ears and we're not saying, no, I could do that. Why not? Otherwise, like Traci and Nancy, I think, have already said, we can do that. Right. So remember to put on either your confidence hat or if you don't have confidence, what should you have courage? So when people think about sometimes that difference between confidence, I know I can do this. I have a belief that I can. Versus courage. It just needs to be done. It's time to be different. Make sure that we put those on. But that was amazing. So that was done in an organization that was really, really trying hard to move women up through the ranks. But this illuminated how nuanced it can be when there are. Even when somebody is working to provide equity. So some just general questions. Panelists, would you be willing to share a time when gender bias meant you were not equipped or prepared for the work you wanted to do? So you're walking into something new or wanted to be in a position and something wasn't in place. There goes Nancy.

There's so many.

But not equipped.

So equipment is what came to my brain when you said that.

So

another fun fact about me, I have a freakishly small head. So we know in the military, like your uniforms are made for men. Right. Designed around men, not designed around women. I could not get a helmet to fit my head. They are made specifically for you. But the shell was never small enough for me. Right. So I had. I'm not lying either. I had this much foam on either side of my helmet to keep it on my head. Yet when I'd go out and fly the A10 and we're doing BFM, which is basic fighter maneuvers, and I'm pulling four or five GS in the airplane, looking behind me, whatever, my helmet would literally slide down my head. My oxygen mask would slide down to the end of my nose and I couldn't breathe. And I'm trying not to get killed by the guy behind me, but I'm going to kill myself because I can't see and I can't breathe. And every time I complained about it, they just put more foam in and more foam in. And I went through that my whole career.

Wow. Wow.

And Odie, well, since you went down that topic, I'll just. Let's continue with that because it was one of the things when Amy and I were discussing. When you're flying a fighter jet, there's not really a place if you need to get up and use the facilities, but there is, for a man. It's a thing called a piddle pack. We carry around the little thing, pull it out, you can use it just fine. No such equivalent for a woman. There are some very interesting stories. I think they're finally addressing it. I know Ed Vaughn was actually part of the team that was looking into all that I'm not sure if they've resolved it yet, but it led to a problem where you're going to do a 12 hour flight across an ocean or something like that. How does a female do it? It's different between a female and a male. And it simply drove requirements within the career field and certainly would be some decisions. I could imagine it would be pretty uncomfortable if somebody told me I had to wear a depins diaper and use that. But that's exactly what happened for the women.

And sadly what drove that was not the women flying, but some leader. We won't mention his name. Chief of staff of the Air Force had a niece that was flying and she complained to him and then all of a sudden it was an issue. This only started maybe five years ago, but yeah, that was the solution. Dehydrate yourself so you don't have to go or wear a diaper. I was dehydrated all the time.

Yeah.

Mary Fike, who passed away a few years ago, flew almost every, I think every aircraft in World War II. She was helping to develop the training programs and she was the first woman to ever receive the. Who was? Orville and Wilbur's. Right. Maintenance officer Chuck something. Chuck. Anyway, she was the first woman that ever got a maintenance, you know, 50 year award because of when she had started doing all the work. I had her speaking at some events. So I was taking her places with me. Cup of coffee in the morning, nothing else all day. I'm worried for her kidneys. Right. And she did make it to 90something. So you're probably okay, but I'm, but I'm stunned. I was stunned that. And she said, oh, nope, I, I learned to fly dry. I can't even think about having other fluids during it. Which was just astounding to me and scary. So thank you for sharing that. Fantastic. That's how things change though. Well, unless you're uncle is the chief of staff of the Air Force. So that's how you get things changed. So are there, are there times when gender bias has worked in your favor? Are there times when you think, yeah,

yeah, I can take that.

So two years ago I was pulled out of a Frazier unit and I was put it. But I was put with an engineering unit down in Livonia. So they thought, okay, there's this one female out of the 159 soldiers. What is she going to do here? So there were a bunch of projects. I, you know, know, being a female, I think I had an advantage. I could, I could pick and choose my project. And guess what? I picked the most tough project because I know I can do the math and I can do it. And all the other captains were like, she's going to fail and we're not going to help her because she's pretty new. She has to earn her spot. Yes. Because I did not have an ally. I'm the only female trying to struggle to figure out how do I navigate through 158 other guys. So did the math, did my project folder within a day. Whereas the team used to take at least six drills to do it.

Wow.

They did not believe me. They repeatedly checked it and I was like, I can do the math if you want, I can train you. And that was a big shocker for them. And I remember, you know, when I was picking up the folder and I think Shelly and I had this discussion last year. I was telling Shelly in one of my call that hey, I don't feel I belong here. I look different, you know, my background is different. I, I, I'm having a hard time fitting in. And you know, Shelly told you don't have to fit in. You can be a unicorn. And I still use that. I, I can be different and I can deliver. And every time I have a challenge, I think that and I prove myself not for the sake of proving it to the guys, but for proving that, hey, yes, girls can do math. So that came to my favor because I was only female and everybody was like, hey, looking to challenge me. But at the same time I know I could do it. I picked up the toughest project and made it happen.

Oh, that's great. Good for you. John Z. Brings up a couple points. One is that I recently heard someone talk about the glass ceiling as being a double paned glass ceiling, go through two levels. I had a unique opportunity a few number of years ago to have a Fireside Chat kind of presentation with General Ann Dunwoody. Sound familiar? Who was the first female to four stars in any of the services? General Ann Dunwoody. And so very, very cool. First of all, coin, by the way. And anyway, she talks about it as the brass ceiling in the military, that it's, that it's tough and, and all of that. Just know that, you know, we all have different ceilings we have to go through. Remember my presentation, I talked about hitting the ceiling like they're, they're there. Our goal is, and I think listening to John Z, whether it's confidence or courage, take it and run with it. Right? So that's pretty cool. John Z. You also brought up allies so, panelists, are there some times when you've been an ally or needed an ally? I guess, on any of those sides? General Slocum, I think of you and the work that you did with the sexual assault prevention programs and things like that. Are there times where, you know, an ally is. Is really what's needed?

Well, that's. An ally is always needed. I mean, you don't. All the way from being a wingman in combat and everything on down. But, you know, my first, as I've learned through my career, one of my first questions to any problem is, who's on my team? And that made me kind of think, you know, so I spent. When you think fighter pilots, of course, you know, most people think Top Gun, ice, Iceman, maverick, stuff like that. Warheads on foreheads and being a badass. Pardon me. Don't record that. But I spent a large part of my career in the safety career field, where I actually learned. Earned the name for a while the safety softie, because I would always show pictures of my daughter and talk about human factors type of things. And I think one of my greatest career accomplishments is saving lives. And that's why I was very proud of. But, you know, back to those programs, we'd sit in conferences, and it was not a very diverse audience I think you've touched on. You know, when you look at. From any demographic you want to look at, it became very valuable to me early on to make sure that, I mean, however you want to look at it. So I could surround myself with people like me. I could think I'm brilliant, off we go, thinking in one way. But if I surround myself with people with different backgrounds, different ways of thinking and different experiences, and to me, one of them was just simply age somebody. I would get young people around me to give the perspective because I figured out very quickly that as older I got, I'm not in the bell curve anymore, you know, so I need some perspective from other folks. But, you know, especially in the safety career field, I would purposely go and seek out women's opinions on certain things because the way they looked was different than the way men looked at problem solving, at issues, at especially marketing and communication. So it became very valuable to me from that perspective to be able to garner those inputs from others, especially people that are different than me.

Great. Thank you. Other thoughts about ally being an ally? Asking for allies. Joncy.

Anymore.

You. So I. I have a. I have a good. I have a good story to share. So I was asked to come to Troy High School to talk to the kids about the military service and you can have dual career. And I was like, why is Troy School inviting me? And this is coming from my boss, who's a typical white man who's been in the industry. And, you know, he's like asking me, go to the Troy school and talk to the kids. And I did not understand why he was saying that. And if you all know Troy has maximum Asian community, and I keep telling everybody that Asians have one thing. You can either you have to be a doctor, engineer, or failure, right? I didn't want it to be a failure. So I went to engineering as my. As my background, you know, as my trade. And I started the same way as I said, I told you right now. And the kids were like, yes, that's what my mom says, Chauncey. And I said, you can. You can also offer military. And they were like, I've never heard any of the women who's coming, you know, who's of Indian descent and be in being in the military. And that was a big shocker for them. That kind of opened my eye that, you know, my boss was my ally. He's pushing me because I'm super passionate about, you know, helping young girls in the world of science and stem. And he said, go talk to them. And they were asking multiple questions, hey, how can you be an engineer in the military? And how are you doing? Two different things. So the main fact is, you know, my ally pushing me to go talk to the school kids, and the kids were super excited. And I was. I was helping them break that barrier that you can have dual careers and as a nation, you can be in the military. That is an option. So just wanted to share this fun story with everyone.

And sometimes being an ally is just being there, right? Otherwise, we call it role model. I always say, are you a good role model? Yes or no? That's not the question. Unless you're living under a rock, you are one. So it is about a good role model, not just being a role model, but, yeah, allies are important. I think for only a couple of the panelists. I told you a little bit about some of the other things that they do in their communities, and I want to hearken on that for a minute. The way anything changes is by bringing it up, right? By first being able to make the case for change or decision to be best, doing something that makes people realize it needs to be different. And so by seeing what it's like to walk in another's footsteps, we learn more. It helps us to be a better Ally for Change. And I think each of the panelists, if they choose to answer this, have great background in this. Each of you are involved in not for profit or other initiatives to level the playing field and. Or provide equity for others. Would you like to share how you're changing the world? I think the world. I read your stuff, but yeah. All right. How you're changing your little corner of the community world. So. No. What types of things are you involved in, though? That. That where you're making a difference. Tracy, when you and I talked, we had quite a chat about what you're doing to. For women in the trades, so.

Oh, man. To be honest, I just come in and try to do the best I can every day.

Right.

Sometimes it's just putting one foot forward right in front of the other.

But maybe talk about the program that is available. Maybe there's somebody here interested or they know another woman who might be.

Man, anybody. We'll take anybody. Shoot, we're so short on tradespeople.

Anybody?

Come on.

Yeah, we have a lot of. Actually, we have a lot of programs. We have the Hard Hat to Helmet. We have Sisters in the Brotherhood, and we just have our apprenticeship program, just in general, which is held here for Detroit. I know we talked a lot about it, but now my mind went blank.

No, it's all good. I think, you know, the. The key is when there are programs that accelerate, like being able to make connections. So, you know, can't thank Shelley enough for the things that she does to bring the community together. Right. You're. You're probably all walking out of here going, oh, and then I could get support here or I could support others here. And so a lot of it's just bringing that knowledge. So bringing us here to your home has been a great start.

As she was saying, we go into the schools, we talk to the young ladies and the young men that are coming in because they don't know about the trades. So that's huge right there. In general, schools are getting back shop classes. That's a big thing right now as well. So we're working with them so they can provide a good shop experience and then get hands on there and then come in here and actually get credit for that as well. We have other programs with high school in Detroit right now that's doing like a co op thing that's just started, so that's kind of cool. So just like automotive shop, they get credits for attending colleges as well. So that's the kind of stuff that we're working on right now. Just getting the name out there is huge for us because we're like the forgotten trade.

And I think that I was surprised. I think at one point you had told me something about the dollar per hour rate that folks are getting as they're working their way to their journeymen.

Yes.

I believe we start out just a little under 20, but we're in negotiations right now to get that up because that's just where we're at.

So.

And that's just on the dollar. That's not even your benefits. That's not your healthcare, that's not your pension, your annuity, anything like that. Your total package is probably like 44 something just to start out. And then your first year, you work as an apprentice as your first year. That's what you make. And then every six months after that, you go up and pay.

Yeah, fantastic. So those are great opportunities that. Yeah. Until talking with Tracy, I. I didn't know the significance of those.

Yes, we have facilities all over. We actually just built three brand new ones just like this. A little bit different than this. This is the biggest one. But we have one on the west side in Wayland, and we have one up in Nagani. Maybe there's one in Saginaw, then somewhere up in. No, that's the one in Nagani.

So Wayland is north of Kalamazoo, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep. That'd be your closest one.

Cool. Did we have another question? Yep. She's got information over there.

Got my number.

They're recording it. So why don't we just send you over to the table there, Raise your hand to help. Give her number. There we go. There we go.

All right.

I don't know, because it'd be bad if you had to change that phone number. Yes.

I'm sure I can get you in contact with some people that you could talk to about that. We do have programs for teenage young adults in the summer. It's like a summer work camp. And we do give back to the community around here. We bring them in here and we teach them all about the safety of the tools and OSHA and everything that you need to do out on the job site. And then we take them around the community and rehab people's porches and things like that, just to give back. So we do some of that, but to the in depth that you're speaking of. Not yet, but I'm sure there's somebody

that would listen if there is a Youth Conservation Corps in the area. That sounded a bit like what you were talking about, too. I don't know if they're around or if you work with them.

So they do have job corps that do things like that.

Okay, we just have a couple of minutes left. So I wondered if we could just kind of go down the line one way or another and just add on again. Each of you, I think are involved in some other programs and things like that. Would you like to add anything, share anything?

I can quickly go next. So I'm a part of General Motors Veterans erg. It's an employee resource group. I support, you know, hiring veterans, you know, anything they need to transition or any questions they have. And I'm especially a lot involved in supporting women veteran. And the reason is, you know, my mom kind of helped me where I am today. She trusted me. She always spoke me that I can be, I can do everything what a guy can do and maybe better sometimes and most of the times. So I do want to, you know, I'm very passionate about helping them in veteran to get where they are and also grow as leaders both inside and outside the organization.

Nancy, I do a lot of things,

but I just want to put in a plug for Fisher House, specifically Fisher House, Michigan. I'm an advisor to them. We have a house in Ann Arbor and we have been approved to build a house in Detroit. So we'll be baking ground very soon. So if you know any veterans that are outside of the 50 mile radius and need to go to the Detroit or Ann Arbor va, they have a place to stay.

Thank you. I want to thank the panelists. I especially want to thank Odie, General Slocum for being up here with us and kind of helping give us some perspective as well. And I think we've heard it. And he's got his attagirl pin. I don't, I don't even have one. I just want to point that out. But, but yeah, thinking about confidence and courage, thinking about fixing issues, the way to do that is to bring those issues. Bring ide if you have them too, but bring those issues and be great allies. So thank you panelists. Thank you, team.