What If Kosher Wine Had No Glass Ceiling?

Welcome to the Kosher Teruah. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, no matter where you are, please take a moment to pray for the safe return home of all our soldiers, If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home, please pour yourself a glass of wonderful kosher wine, sit back, relax, and enjoy. What does it take to bring a corner of the wine world to someone who keeps kosher? It begins long before the bottle reaches the table with a discovery, a conversation, and sometimes a winemaker who has never considered making kosher wine. Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm your host, Simon Jacob. Today, I'm joined by Ari Guthelf, whose work in wine production, importing, and winery consulting gives him a fascinating perspective on the global kosher wine landscape. From Portugal, and France to South Africa and New Zealand, his work opens doors to places, grapes, and styles that many kosher wine lovers have yet to experience. But how do you decide which wine deserves that opportunity? How do you persuade a winery to take the leap? And when you create a wine for the kosher consumer, how do you preserve the character of the place While finding an audience willing to try something unfamiliar. We'll explore the discoveries, the difficult decisions, and the things that can go wrong between an exciting first tasting and a finished bottle. We'll also follow the money, look beyond the label, and ask Ari which overlooked wines deserve a place at your table. So pour yourself something you're curious about. And join us, Ari. Welcome to the kosher terroir. First of all, do me a favor. Tell me how you pronounce your last name.

So there's an easy way to remember it. It's the meaning of it in Germany, which my family comes from, is God help. So it's Gott helf.

Gott helf. Okay. It's a great name. Yeah. It's an absolutely great name. So I just I I just didn't want to get it wrong. Take us back to the bottle that changed your life. What did you taste that made wine more than something for Kiddush for you?

Oh, wow. Great question. So, I actually grew up in a family, not my parents, but my uncles and my grandfather, that always appreciated wine, which means 30 years ago, my grandfather had a wine fridge in his house. And my uncles used to always get some interesting and cool bottles. So I understood the culture of it. And when I was 6 or 7, I already— I collected empty bottles of wine, which I still have some of that collection, just because I got— I was, I was curious and I knew there's value, value in wine other than record— rather than other beverages. So I've been, I've been drinking, but just enjoying wine and, and being maybe above the average kid my age. Then I always, I always say that like God led me into this industry because it was never like my dream to get into it. It was a hobby and I loved it. And when I came back from— after a while I was living, living in the US. So someone just asked me if I want to start working Fridays and pour wines in stores. And I just said yes, just because I wasn't doing anything on Fridays. And that's how I started understanding Where in the US were you? I was most of the time in Cleveland.

Okay.

And then in New York.

Okay.

So, I was a student and I wanted to just drink those, have some money. And they gave me a bottle to pour. And I understood that the reason I'm pouring the wine is for selling the wine and not just to pour the wine. So, if I sell well enough, I can have a bottle for myself for Shabbat. That was just my cool, my common sense. So I understood that first of all, I have to sell, and B, in order to sell, I need to understand the wine and I need to build a story. And since then, that's been actually my, like, my main path in wine is understanding the story and building the story and presenting the story. I'd say 2 bottles that actually, actually changed My view on wines was, if I'm talking about a red wine, it was Netofa Domaine Netofa GSM, which I think they don't produce anymore. But back was 2016, which was the first winery that I drank and I felt something different. I think they make it the Matzpen. They just right. They just and they made it. It's different because that was a younger one and a fresher one. This is a more complex one.

Yeah.

Yeah, but the actual domain, the serious domain that they used to make, it was great. They stopped making it. But that was a red one that I understood, first of all, that there's more than Cabernet. That was the first ABC for me. And I was actually excited to pour it or to drink it and buying it. And the white wine that changed my view and made me a white wine person was Ramón Córdova Rías Baixas. Wow. which I remember, I still have a picture of it, I think, that I— in my phone that I took. It was over maybe 9, 10 years ago that I drank that white wine and I said, oh, there's something different here. That's what they're talking about. And that's what it's meant to be. And that's when I started getting into white wines and white wines became like my favorite. But those are the two, let's say, bottles.

Very cool. You're looking for wines around the world. What makes you stop and say kosher wine drinkers need to experience this?

So it all started when I was getting more and more into into the wines, and I started also teaching wine a little bit. I used to work at a place that used to exist in Jerusalem that was called the Wine Temple.

Yeah, sure.

Right. And I used to I used to work a lot with tourists and teach them about wine and about especially Israeli wine, but about wine and like run like wine workshops and wine.

I love it, Ellie.

Yeah.

Ellie's a great guy, great guy.

So Ellie's one of the people that got me into this industry professionally and taught me a lot. Then I understood something, and then there was like, we brought in the Kosher WSET, which the first ones were at the temple.

Oh, I didn't know that.

And yes, so we were working on it and then we brought it in there because we were, we were presenting ourselves as like a cultural center, an education center, right? So, and I understood something that, that frustrated me. I said, I'm trying I'm in this industry and I'm trying to be the best at it, but I can't. Even if I really work out, even if I really want, I have a glass ceiling above me which I can't break because I can't be— then my dream was to be a sommelier. I can't be the best sommelier in the world. So I, I wasn't thinking that I would be the best, but I was aiming to be the best in the world so I can be somewhere nice in the middle. But even that I can't because I can't drink anything.

You can't drink any of the non-kosher.

I'm talking about 10 years ago, even there was so many, so many, just a few good kosher wines from the world. So that's when I started, like, like that dream, that spark got into me that, okay, some, something needs to change and it shouldn't be that hard. Years came by and I opened my company and we started working and I sold a lot of wine. And then I got the opportunity to actually start producing wines in the world. Was something that I was nudging my partner. I didn't really know how and where to start. And I was in the US doing a market run, and I was supposed to leave back to Israel, and I got a call. Some big company that asked me to do like a wine workshop the day after I was supposed to leave. I was debating, but I decided to delay my flight and to stay for that. And when I got there, I was in Muncie, and when I got to Muncie, they called me and they told me if I could Just wait an hour before I come. So I did the only thing I know what to do, and I just walked into a wine store and started roaming around. While I was just looking at bottles and seeing if I see anything new, anything interesting, I was talking to Hebrew with my partner, and some guy that looks very, very European turned to me and he's like, "Do you speak Hebrew?" I was like, "Yeah," and he just started talking to us. He was in his seventies, and we started talking, and apparently he's from Portugal. He's a Jew that lives in Portugal for 50 years, and he actually represents a winery. It was like 2 weeks after I spoke to my partner. I said, I want to start making wine in Portugal because I just read about Portugal and I was like, we need to find something. And that's how we just— we exchanged numbers, got back to Israel. I told my partner nothing's going to happen with it. I know those kind of stories. A few weeks later, I got a phone call. He's coming to Israel to meet me. We flew to Portugal also. And that's how, like, we really started.

But what's the brand? What was the brand?

And the brand was Solar das Bochas, which we still make in Vinho Verde. That's where, when I did my— I really learned the hard way how to make kosher wine and, and what to do and what not to do. That was a good school for me. But really what I try, I try to look today, there's, there's— I have a, thank God, good experience with that. But I'm looking first of all mostly for something that wasn't Wasn't made before. That's something I really, really look for. Something that has a story, a real story. Yeah, I really try to run away from private labels or just find a factory that produces mass wineries, mass wines, and, and, and just sell a wine just in order to sell. I'm trying to bring a story of an origin, a story of a grape variety, a story of a person. A story of a place, a history, and because that's back to me back then feeling that glass ceiling and knowing I want to drink that, and I try to get as close to the non-kosher bottle just with the kosher stamp. Like that's my goal.

Take us inside the first conversation with a winery about making a kosher wine. What did they usually not understand?

So it's just to run down the numbers first.

Yeah.

Today I could— I go to wine shows and fairs around the world. I contact wineries in regions that I'm looking for. Usually it will go— the numbers— I will talk to about 100 wineries, 10 or 15 will start talking to me, 5 will really want to do it, and then 1 or 2 will actually get to actually making a wine. So that's behind every bottle way before I get to start production. That's what I have to get through it.

Okay.

They hear about kosher wine. Some know actually in the past, I think last year was the year that was kind of the easiest for me. I go to, I go to a Paris wine show every February. I have some meetings set up, but I also go around and just ask people if they know what kosher wine is. And that was like the most that people said, oh, we know kosher wine. I heard about kosher wine. We're interested about, we're interested about to hear about kosher wine. Because people are looking to open up to more markets. The competition is very high, so they hear that and they're interested. The main thing is, so then I start, I have a good hack that I have because Adam Montefiore wrote once in Wine Folly, he wrote like a nice article about what kosher wine is. So that's usually in my first email, that's my first introduction. I send a link to that. And that summons up for non-Jewish people who don't know what kosher wine is, it gives them the nice basis of it. I'd rather that than ChatGPT or Gemini or Render. And I don't know if he knows how much I use his article.

Do you ever speak to him?

Actually not. I read a lot.

Yeah. I just speak to him all the time. And he's really a special person.

I just read a lot and I know a lot of people that are friends with him and he has a huge impact on Israeli wine in general.

And it's he is he's really special.

So back to what back to that. So I send them usually I send them that and then we start we start talking. We have either I go to the to the winery, let's say before the war when I did when I was occupied in a lot of miluims. So it was easier for me to just hop on a plane and fly. I learned in the hard way how to do it remotely also. I always like the physical connection with people because I think it's also a lot about wine, but. Also in general, you read a person, you make a person feel you when you meet him, you gain trust. And when it's through a screen, it's very hard. Yeah, because you're, you're, you're, you're pretty much limited to his conception about you. When in person, it's much easier to break it down and to control it or change it. But then we meet, we start talking about doing that. Usually, usually I'm saying after I went through everything and we see that it's relevant, there is— the hardest thing is the sweet spot, because the sweet spot between marketing and production, I'd say that's usually in any winery. Also wineries that I work with, Israeli wineries that I consult or I have worked in, there's always the battle between production and marketing, right? Marketing wants something, production wants to be very realistic or to work easier. And when it comes to that, who do I usually talk to? I talk to either the CEO Marketing manager, export manager. Those are the people I talk to, and they could approve and approve and approve. But once it gets to the production floor, it's production that makes it.

Yeah, right.

And then there it comes very it becomes very challenging. I had I had I had I had a winery in Portugal which I really really wanted to make wine in. Was I think 2022, and its region is called Tejo in the south of Portugal. Very hot place.

Do you speak Portuguese?

No, I know some words, but I, uh, okay. I just thank God they learned Hebrew.

They don't know. Yeah, yeah, they spoke Hebrew.

And I have, I have my guy there that also knows how to translate and explain me the, uh, their mentality because it's very unique. It's not a classic European mentality, but with in person it's easier to connect. But, uh, so we went there, beautiful wine, one of the most modern wineries I've been in. Vineyards are just— the vineyard is planted in a river that moved over the course of 500 years. And it's just the wines, the red wines has so much minerals in it that in a blind tasting it tastes like a white wine. And I was fascinated about it. And I got into meeting them, building the team to make the wines. We started making the wines and 3 days into production, I get a phone call. I get a phone call every few hours. The winemaker said this. The winemaker said that. Those guys are doing this. Those guys are doing that. And it became so hectic that eventually I told the guy, "Look, we tried, and I feel bad, but that's not the way I want to make kosher wine. That's not the experience I want you to have with kosher wine. So let's just leave the wine by you. I'm sending the team back home, and wow! And let's just forget about it." And that's what that's what happened.

So.

Sometimes it could get to that. I don't fight over kosher wine. I think kosher wine and wine has to be made with love, has to be made with you know respect. You feel it in the wine. That's the energy that wine brings. So we left that. That was a huge project. I invested a lot in it, but it wasn't worth it for me. I had I had another winery that used to call me every while to tell me, "Look, you have your workers there, the mashgiachim pretty much. They represent me." Yeah. Very important to pick the right people. And people who know what they do, and thank God there is because there is such a big kosher production around the world. You have some people that are with a lot of experience, that have a lot of professionalism, so so they gain trust with the winery. But used to call me to tell the guys come here and they pray instead of working. So the the masgiach used to come early in the morning, three masgiachim put on film plantales, daven shachars, and start working. Comes mincha time, they stop, they pray mincha, and they keep on working. And for the goyim, it's they can't—they can't wrap their head around it.

Yeah, if you're there, work.

And I used to tell them, "Look, I understand you're right, but I'm paying them, so just let them pray, and it may hopefully it'll help help the wine be good." But they kept on calling me every single time until they got used to it. But the the most challenging things is when we get to the actual production, when a winemaker. Gets it that he can't touch the wine, that every time he needs to take a lab sample, he needs to call the mashgiach to come in. That's that's the most challenging thing. Although today, also with technology, it becomes easier. Which means back I used to fight with production. There's some wineries that want to take a lab test of the wine every 24 hours, which when you make kosher wine. Around the world, it's it's irrelevant. Don't make it too expensive. The meshgiach has to live there for three four weeks. Yeah. And so I've consulted with winemakers that are my friends, and I have my experience in making wine. And you can do it every few days or once a week and follow it right enough, and that that will be good. And used to fight me. I used to sign guarantees that the wine will be will be good, and we can send it once a week, once a month. Sorry, once a week. And and and that worked. Today, I just started production in the Lisbon region, and they had in every tank a device that cost maybe two thousand euros that gives you details, live details about the wine, and it only rings if it goes out whenever the need the wine needs treatment.

Whenever it goes out of balance, right?

From what they're and then the meshgiach already gets. Alerted, gets the alarm into his phone, and he knows how to come in and do that, which makes it very easy.

Cool.

Yeah.

I was wondering what you meant by technology has changed that. That's really— it's interesting. Okay, so I have another question. When you produce a kosher wine with an established winery, whose fingerprints end up on the finished bottle? Are you trying to make the wine In the style of that winery, or are you trying to make wine from there in a— so in a mark, in a style that you feel is marketable?

Oh, so I usually, uh, my goal is to break the glass ceiling for the kosher consumer, not to create something new. Okay. I want the kosher consumer like me and you to be able— we have this, you know, bottle of Ribera del Duero here. Mm-hmm. As of now, that's the only kosher mark Rivera del Duero in the market. There used to be another one, but I want to drink Rivera del Duero. I want it to be as good as Rivera del Duero could be, and I want it to be as similar to the winery that I already picked. So it's you—it's always going to be the winemakers and the winery's philosophy, the winemakers and the winery's work—that I just support and help them become kosher. That's a baseline for the winery. Once I already work with the winery, I could already create another wine, which means I used to, I made, I made a Wine X at a winery, and then I decided that, I mean, let's get back to Portugal cuz that was, used to be my biggest production there. I made in the Douro, I made a, the Godin brand, which is a fun entry-level Godin red, dry red wine. And I wanted to make— I had an idea for this liquid, how to make it a reserva, how to make it a little better. So I insisted on getting new 500-liter Portuguese oak and test the amount of time that the wine has to stay there and build the right blend. So that's a wine that I made together with the wine team there. They had to approve it. That was a vision that I had, and I wanted to Bring it to the market, but that doesn't happen very often. I usually trust the process of the winery because by the time I get to working with the winery, it's a winery that really I believe in what they do and that it is marketable.

If you could put one unfamiliar grape on every kosher wine lover's table, what would you choose? Wow. I'm really asking you these questions because you have a much larger breadth than most people, especially in kosher wines and going through. And you must taste non-kosher wines as well, obviously, which I, I'm, I'm svaradi. I'm not allowed to taste non-kosher wine, to taste and spit. I can't do that. So I'm always interested in people's experiences.

So I think, I think the one, one, let's start with red. I think the one red Grape variety that is pretty missed in the in the kosher is the is the Tinto Fino slash Tempranillo slash the Tinta Ruiz. It's it's it fits the idea of the what people are looking from you know all those Israeli style Bordeauxs, a bold heavy bold wine. But it has everything checked and balanced when it makes— when it produces well, which means it has a ton of fruit, it has a lot of spices coming from the right treatment from the oak, it has great acid from growing in places that are not Israel, and it fits also a more Mediterranean style of, of, of culinary that we have here rather than going straight up French. And it's not going to be as different for the consumer here. And I think also another grape variety that's that's not yet to reach its reach its potential is the Nebbiolo. I think there aren't enough Nebbiolos in the kosher market. I think Nebbiolo is a wine that can has to have more trials and researches also even in growing it in Israel and and worldwide. I think it also could be When it become more affordable, I guess, because today then most Nebbiolos are very expensive or not very great in the kosher world. That's going to reach that. In white wines—

Hold on. Let me ask you a question about Nebbiolo, because I'm told that, and I have a friend who produces a really high-end Nebbiolo in Italy, Dr. Medeb, Ralph Medeb, is a good friend. There are people who say, that the Nebbiolos that are produced outside of Italy aren't really Nebbiolos. I mean, they produce it in Southern California. I know the Shira brothers produce a Nebbiolo and they're trying to produce it here as well. I know there's some, some wineries. I don't, how true is that?

I mean, so I'm, I'm a big believer in, in that wine doesn't really have rules.

Okay.

Those rules that we have and had in wine are good for story, are good for marketing, and are good for tradition. Today, I think the tradition side of the wine is good, but it's not, it's not a boundary. Okay? Because with, if we only used to stick with what should grow where, we wouldn't have great wines. Coming from other places, right? Yeah. If Sauvignon Blanc stayed in in France, we wouldn't have a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. Yep. Right, which became a staple. So if Cabernet Sauvignon wouldn't leave those regions again, so we wouldn't have a lot of bad wine, but we also would have missed some of some of the greater wines that we have. Petite Syrah, Dourif wouldn't leave France. We wouldn't have some. Good Vitkins Petite Syrah, for example, right? Yes. Awesome. Which is a wine you wouldn't want to miss. Yeah. So in general, it's a wine that people need to learn how to do it. If you're trying to imitate the Italian Nebbiolo, you're right. You'll never get to there. It's very specific. It's what people are used to. It has a certain, I say, uh, spots of, of climate, of history, of tradition, of the way of growing it, of older vines. So if you try to imitate Italian Nebbiolo, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get to there. And in that way, he is, he's right. But if you try to take, bring a new expression to Nebbiolo and try to study it and see how you can fit it to your climate or to your style of winemaking, so you can get great Nebbiolos who aren't, that are not trying to replace the Italian ones. Yeah. For example, Josh's Nebbiolo, which you spoke about from Essa that we bring here.

Yeah.

It's a great Nebbiolo. It's not a great Italian Nebbiolo. It's different.

Yeah.

It has some resemblance because it's still a Nebbiolo and has those meaty, earthy, leathery notes to it. So, you know, it's unique to Nebbiolo, but it's a lot more acidic. It's a lot more cleaner. It's less rustier than a, than a good Italian Nebbiolo. So I think especially in the kosher wine world, which we're still limited. We can't get wines from everywhere in the world. So the more winemakers will play around and try to find their way of making things, we're going to be able to have greater wines. And especially here in Israel, we're at a very, very crucial point of having the map of the wine regions, of having— just came out. Right. And having The regions defining themselves. So now is the time to keep on trying to find what is really, really what really could work here and what can make us special, and not just making another Bordeaux blend and try to send that to the world.

I, I think Israel, as far as a collection of winemakers, has the most creative. Amazing winemakers. I mean, there are special winemakers all over the world, but Israel contains this— I call them sabaristas because it's like crazy. There's so many interesting plays as to what's going on.

I, when I think it was February 25th, I went to the wine show in Paris. And I was, I was still, still in Milouim. I, I got like off for 2 weeks, went out of Lebanon to, to fly to the wine show and, and getting right back to there. And I was— it's, it's, it's a great event, okay? It's about 6 huge halls in the size of football court each hall, just, just wine. Divided by regions, divided by countries, by wine styles, big producers, small producers. Just to walk around there is fascinating as a wine lover. And I remember looking around and just feeling that miss. I said, Israel has such a great story to tell in their wines. And You know, the entire what we call Hasbara, right? Was it's we felt how much how big of a myth how that's the war that we really lost in the past few years, and trying now to try to win it is worth in a three-year delay. But to try to find the spots where it's more acceptable and try to express and show Israel through that that should be. Something that we're thriving for and trying to do. And I was looking there and said, "What if we brought in our Arab winemaker from Latrun and our monks from Yekiva Minzar and our Ariel beer from Era Valley? The Datilomi that served and serves. That serves. He's there all the time. I know the guy doesn't sleep. I know he works. He does.

Yeah, I was amazed to see him coming back and." I don't think he takes off his army boots ever.

Ever. Ever. And having what's her name from Tura, a female, a religious female from the Shomron, and having an Ethiopian winemaker and another Arab one that works together with the Jewish one, and having all of these, having Avrami Bornstein from Tepperberg, a full-on Haredi from Kiryat Sefer that works in one of the biggest wineries in Israel. That's a beautiful story to show to the world besides the great wines. That unity, that diversity, there's nothing like it. And as I'm thinking of it, I walked through the Lebanese stand of wines. And I said, this country— I just got out of there. It's a broken country that's full of war and terror, and they still had 10 wineries showing up, showing there.

Yeah. Because it's hot. It's the they are they are thought of as being one of the the best. There's a winery in Lebanon that's thought of as being one of the best wineries in the world. Yeah, which is just it's amazing.

But they still have part. It's like the Galil or Golan. Yeah, they still have some of that of those regions, and there's some Christian. I actually went to talk to them, right? And there's some. Nice Christian families there that are rooted deep in in their own terroir's history, and know what they're making. And they also suffer from the war, and they're also looking to get out of that situation. They used to be Miss Terranians Paris. It was. And today Paris. I remember that. And today Paris is the the Lebanese. Right, right.

In Beirut, it was like it was the. party city. People used to sit in cafes on the coast. It was—

So my really, when I came back there, my dream was to find or to fund or to— I still don't know how to actually bring it out, to work it out, but to build a foundation that knows how to bring those wineries, bring the story of Israel, Out to those places, to the world, and show that. And I think it's it's not just about selling the wine; it's not just about showing the wine; it's about showing what Israel really is, and it connects to our history, right? And it connects to our future and our present. And that for me, that's that's a really really really big miss.

I agree with you. I agree with you 100%. Okay. Again, I'm playing on your—

Go for it.

On your very broad distribution. Give us a 3-glass journey through Portugal, New Zealand, and South Africa. What would you pour to show us how different they are?

I love those questions. They just limit me so much.

Okay. No, if they're limiting you—

Because I wish I could just pour people whatever you do. So we said, we said, New Zealand, Portugal, and South Africa. Yeah, fine.

You want to include Israel into that? You can include Israel if you want, but no, no, let's leave Israel out.

Yeah, let's leave Israel out. I'd say for— okay, so the easiest is New Zealand. Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand. I'm a big fan of, of, of new, interesting, crazy things, right? When I see something new or something I like, I go to a restaurant, something I haven't tasted before, that's for sure the thing That I'm going to order, whether I like it or not. At least I'm going to know, right? As a kosher consumer, also with food, it's very hard for me. I sometimes go to restaurants around the world just to sit and see people eat. Yeah, food I can't. I know. I smell.

I get a glass of beer. I smell stuff. I smell stuff, and I just got right. Okay. I say, okay, that's how you do it.

And I say, okay, that's as much as experience I'm going to get with that, and I'm okay. So, but when something is as great as it gets, even if it's Quote unquote, kind of boring. You can't deny it. So a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc, first of all, it has that fingerprint, right? That tropical, amazing fingerprint, which you can't deny. So you right away know that is a New Zealand, that it's from New Zealand. You don't have to be a big wine connoisseur. You just have to smell it once and you know. It's also very friendly wine, which means everyone can enjoy it.

Super approachable.

Yep. And it's also still within those wines, there is diversity, which means even if you take today those all kosher Sauvignon Blancs from New Zealand, which just aren't that many, but you got maybe a handful. Rima Pera by Royal, you got the Mudhouse that used to come to Israel, then you got the Oddwise Creek, the Ring, Hikohawai, some Barkany just brought in like a Jumping Sheep, or I don't know how it's Call that. Yeah, you still can taste it, and and it's a very affordable tasting to do. But you can just taste glass by glass and see that there is differences. But yet there's something connecting them together, which I think for a region that's that should be the like you know the dream come true. That you have something very unique that connects everything together, but you still can make different styles within it. Portugal, Portugal. The reason I also Produce most a lot of my production in Portugal is because Portugal is a very, very interesting story of a region that first of all has over 200 native grape varieties. Wow! I didn't know that. And it's it's a it's a country by the size of Israel, in a way similar to Israel in the diversity of of regions. Right? That's that I think your last podcast you were talking about that. Yeah. Like why Israel shouldn't be just one region.

Yeah.

So Portugal has that uniqueness as well. It has warm climates, colder climates. It's close to the Atlantic Ocean. It has Spain on the other side with higher mountains, has a river crossing in. So it has very, very unique sub-regions within a very small area. I just spoke to one of my friends from the Douro Valley. The Douro Valley is, I'd say, the main region in Portugal. And he told me that there's about, I think, 10,000 producers in that region. We're talking about Israel that has 400 wineries in the entire country, that has one region, maybe in the size of the Galil and Golan together, that has 10,000 producers.

Bordeaux also has like 10,000 producers. So it's crazy.

And you see that. You see wine there. Everywhere, like every small restaurant that you walk in has a huge wine presentation. Everything local. So Portugal was under the dictatorship until the '80s. In a way, I feel bad for the Portuguese people, but for the wine economy there, that was that was pretty good because it made it made two things. First of all, it made it that until today, most of Portuguese wine is consumed in Portugal. And the second thing is. That they weren't affected by the American economy coming into the US when around the '80s when Americans started buying a lot and getting into all those wines. So for example, in Italy, that's when they started actually producing Cabernet and Chardonnay because they wanted to sell to the Americans, right? It happened in France in some regions, it happened in Italy, it happened in Spain. Portugal was isolated, so they had no reason to plant Cabernet Sauvignon or to take out Alvarinho vineyards and plant Chardonnays. So it really helped to maintain that tradition and that history. And you walk in and most wineries there are families generation after generation, not very much into technology, but a lot Into tradition, and you have so many great varieties. You have so many styles, and you know it's known mostly for the port. The I learned from them also the way of drinking wine is for them is really really part of the day to day. You know we like love to say how every Italian restaurant opens a cheap red wine with their pasta. Yeah, there they really drink wine, and they're really trying when when I when I Went to make a port production in Portugal, the winery, which is fifth generation. The guy come in and told me, "I'm just asking you from one thing: please don't make it a nerdy, you know, high-end style of product." You know how we drink our ports? And you can see it in the summer in every restaurant in Porto and every bar. They have a glass, a gin and tonic glass. With white port tonic and a slice of orange. They call it port tonic. Okay, they just drink their wines and they enjoy their wines. So, so it's so diverse and there's so much to discover there, which I'm still trying and to, to produce more and more there. But I'd say if we want to go, uh, the most unique is going to be a white variety coming from Vinho Verde, which is a region that produces 95% of just white wines, and that's the Loureiro. Loureiro is a very— it's like the Portuguese Riesling in a way. Okay. Okay. It's a very, very, very wild. It has that, let's say, I don't wanna call it gassy style of— anyway, I forgot the word. Also in Hebrew, I forgot the word, but it's super acidic, super fruity, not balanced at all, very, very wild. And when it comes from the right vineyards, it also tends to be very salty. Okay, cool. So that's going to be something so different that I always tell people when I, when I, when I give them to drink it, you could like, you could like it or not like it, but there's nothing like it, right? That's, that's a, that's a great example for a wine like that, that there's nothing like that also in the kosher world. Or almost in the world period. And South Africa, South Africa. So if we're going non-kosher in South Africa, there's there's some great pinotages. Okay, which is cool, fun, very earthy, leathery, almost tastes like in a way good pinotage has beef jerky notes, which is also very South African. But if we're going kosher, we're very limited, right? We have very few that make mostly. Entry-level cheaper wines, and we have Josh. Yeah, and going with Josh, so Josh makes some wild wines that are that are like we said the Nebbiolo that are not very traditionally to South Africa. But if we're going to the region Hemel and Arda in in Cape Town where Josh has most of his grapes coming from, so a Pinot Noir will be a great example. Those Pinot Noirs there they grow. When they grow well, they go on mountain slopes and the bottom of the slopes close to the ocean. So in the summer, in the early mornings, it gets a beautiful layer of fog that pretty much they use it as a filter to the grapes. So at the hard time of the sun, the fog pretty much keeps the grape. Yeah. So then that way we get, we get, we still can get good Pinot Noir that are still acidic, that are still lighter bodied. but also very fruitful and flavorful. It's like when somewhere, if I say California and Bourgogne meet midway. So, that's going to be— or the way I said Josh's Pinot Noir is the greatest Israeli Pinot Noir that exists there.

Yeah. When you make wine for kosher consumers, is there pressure to make it taste familiar, or do you just let the places speak?

So there is coming from the marketing side, I'd say in a way in my company there is a pressure to make it as close to the consumer's taste in my hand, in my way in production. And the reason I'm doing that is to have it as close to to the region and to the winery's production. I'd say the only Places where I lose to that is when we produce like cheap entry-level wines. Okay, which is that anyways those wines are are are just because you need to have that in your portfolio and part of the business to selling store to stores and to bring something new. If I can make a cheap wine that's that resembles the the region, I'll still make it, and it's easier in some countries like. It's easy in Portugal. It's easy in Argentina and Chile and places where cheaper wines are wines anyways is cheaper to produce. But once it comes to mid-level and higher-level wineries, it's it's hands down like I don't care about. I'll take on myself to teach the consumers how to drink this wine, and I do it a lot. I walk around stores. I go to the events, and I try to build that. I really believe in that. But The only reason why we're doing it is to give the kosher consumer the opportunity to drink this wine with a kosher stamp. So in my contract with wineries is that the same wine has to be the same wine has to be it has to be very similar. I understand if there's some difference in tanks, and with some wineries, especially in the first year, for example, I would produce I want to produce ten thousand liters of kosher wine. We will produce it in a 20,000-liter tank, and the winery will have to use for their own wine the 10,000 of those liters. That's how I guarantee the quality.

What belief about wine did you once defend confidently, and now you think you got it wrong? Oh, you could say never.

There wasn't anything. No, no, there's for sure so many that I have to think about. I really believed that people like We spoke about a little bit before the before the podcast that people drink wine like we like we do. Like I understand, it took me a while to understand most people don't really are not wine nerds. I don't want to say don't understand wine, but are not wine nerds. Yeah. And and the wrong consumption I had that I thought that they need to be. Now I understand that I want them to be, but they don't need to be. Right. That's how the world works, and that's how. I need to find the ways to get to them in their own way. But most, most, I'd say a common person who drinks wine, probably most likely won't even listen to this podcast, right? He won't. He's not trying to get— he's just trying to be confident. Most of the times when I get to, to, let's say, weddings where I pour wine, bigger events where I don't just meet like wine nerds, or let's say people who have go to RCC or people have wine groups or buy wine or have wine fridges in their, in their, in their house. They almost always apologize. Look, I don't really understand wine by this, or they're defensive. Like we said, I don't drink blends. I only drink Cabernets. I don't drink Cabernets. I only drink blends, which is from my perspective a lot of in a way nonsense. But I understand where they're coming from because it's noise. A lot of people made wine unapproachable. Yeah, it's fun to make wine unapproachable. It really is. It's really unfortunate.

It's really unfortunate because it, it puts us in a, in such a, a bad place. You know, the, the first thing an experienced winemaker or an experienced wine seller downplays is Moscato d'Asti. It's like, this is, this isn't wine. This is like, this is like apple juice or whatever. It's like fizzy apple juice. And, and it's like, it is the number one selling kosher wine in the world.

I think that's an incredible thing.

I think it's the number one in the world, period, without even adding kosher. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it—

I think as a single bottle.

It's just, it's such a, it's such an entry that, you know, and we don't use it at all. We basically, we basically downplay it.

And I think, I think that's why I said so. That's why I think it's a big miss. It's fun to make wine unapproachable. It makes us feel better.

Yeah, right. But stupid.

But it makes us, it makes us wrong. I didn't used to think that way. And today the first thing I tell people is, if it's delicious for you, if you like drinking it, stop apologizing. Yeah. If you want to dive in, yeah, the window and the door is open for you. Yeah. Choose from where you want to walk in. And there's a lot to get into. Okay, I don't think I understand wine the way I want to understand wine. There's so much to it. And we just said, for example, Ariel Beer, right? He's a great friend of mine, and I'm always fascinated. The guy works and makes wine, like 3 wineries. He's always serving. Yep. He has a family. He's a good dad. I know his kids, and he always constantly keeps on learning more and more about wine. I'm not able to do all of those things together. I want to know more. Okay, I'm probably more know than the average person, but I wish I knew more agriculture and more biology and more chemistry and more. So in the end of the day, we don't know everything. So instead of, you know, being a snob about what we know, try to teach what we know. Yep. And exactly with the 100%.

And that's—

I think that's the biggest thing. And I think us as wine consumers If you don't know how to do that, there's a great book that's called Wine for Dummies. Yeah, that's really helpful. And I love, I love that book. And I think if you want to know how to teach people and educate people in a simple way, either give them to read that or read it yourself. Right. And you're going to see that wine is fun. And a Moscato, there's no different— the consistency of Moscato. You know, people praise Viktor Schoenfeld and his consistency. It's as hard to make, to have the consistency with the Moscato. Yeah. And the Moscato has bigger tradition, Moscato d'Asti, than, than the Golan Heights, at least in consistent tradition. And the grapes grow. So you have the story, you have the region, you have everything. You don't like it, it's too sweet for you. There's so many wines that I don't like. So what? It used to be when I was in by a friend's house for, you know, just, I was just now sukkah by a friend. He called, invited me for sukkah. I was in his sukkah. And he opened some wines, but he had just so many wine glasses, right? And the rest, that's what he had. So he had plastic glasses. I took the white wine, I poured it into a plastic. I wanted to drink it from plastic glass. It's not always where you have to, you know, think about, overthink the wine. Just enjoy the wine. And I wanted people to see me drinking from the plastic glass, right? All right. The plastic cup. Just enjoy the wine sometimes. Drink it like you enjoy it. Drink it like you drink it. And don't like It's not gonna be a wine when I go to a fancy restaurant, fancy dinner. I'm not gonna obviously drink it this way. Yeah. But sometimes just let it go and just enjoy it.

I, I agree with you totally. And actually playing on that, you understand wine branding. How can a listener tell when they're paying for what's in the bottle and when they're paying for the story?

So in a way, Like my way of doing this is the story is part of what's in the bottle, or sometimes even more important than what's in the bottle. Yeah, I am like it's a side business that I do, but I help wineries here in Israel to build a story and and brand their labels. I design labels for quite a few wineries, write what's on the label, and but the reason why I do it, I'm not trying to be a graphic artist, is to help them. Connect to their story. When we have, and again, people in are lazy. Okay? That's the way people are today. People don't. We have ChatGPT. We don't have to think too much, right? We have all those. But so I want when I build a label, for example, I want to I want to help the person telling the story. The guy in the store that's more important than the winemaker because he sells the wine.

He's the one who's interacting with the customer.

I want to give him notes how to Okay, present the wine. So for example, we have a bottle here. My the guys who listen should apologize, but it's called Alco de Curiel, right? The Arc of Curiel. Arc is like an arc, right? So it's a historic arc in the region of Ribera del Duero. Okay, okay. The Magdalena Arc, and that's so we built. We have the arc here. We have the location of the viner. That's just a small example how through visual I can explain the story. Better. But I think if we're talking about classic regions like Bordeaux or, you know, some regions in Italy, so all their labels look the same and you need to know the region and know how to learn, read the label. We're talking about newer places. Usually the more the label looks unique and gives you an idea of the story behind it, It means that the guy that made the wine cared enough to try to tell you something, and the more it imitates other things and looks great, but like something else usually means that the wine itself is trying to be like something else and not not the same way. Like like you showed me a bottle earlier, right? I told you it looks. Like I assumed that it's sweet and you didn't. Yep. Right? You just read the grape varieties. Mm-hmm. I saw the label and I saw like it looked like so many other things that I said it probably tastes just like so many other things. Okay. There are surprises in wine all the time, right? I try to drink as many wines and try them because I love surprises. The main tip I could give people is that first of all, always read the label. Right. There's some big words and some exaggerations that are marketing or fun, or that's the style of the wine. But read the small details, read and try to remember, because eventually you're going to find the method of what you like and what you don't like. Eventually you're going to— it's going to help you learn about yourself and what you like. When you don't need to just pour the wine and you drink it, you're not really going to be able to have a concept in your head of what, what's good for you.

What's a wine you love that customers simply don't understand?

So the the Solar das Bochas Alvarinho from Vino Verde that we make is one of my favorite white wines. And I just, I see it also in sales. Yeah, but most people don't get it. It's, it's old vine Alvarinho from Vinho Verde that usually, usually in Vinho Verde they make very light, approachable white wines. And this is something that was aged with oak chips for 6 months. It has a very big buttery body. It has a lot of acid. So the body's like a Chardonnay. The acid is like a very good Sauvignon Blanc. It has a saltiness and it has some effervescence like Portuguese Vinho Verde usually has. And it's such a complex wine that I absolutely love. Absolutely love. And I'd say some people get it, but most people don't get it.

I have to taste that. Yeah.

I'll, I'll go get it.

You've made me so, you've made me so excited about tasting that wine. I can't, I can't tell you. Okay. One of the last questions. One bottle to welcome a beginner, one to surprise an experienced wine lover, and one to open with someone you love. What would you choose?

To welcome a beginner? Mm-hmm. I think, I think the, the New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is just the sweet spot between A super approachable wine and a very clear identity, so you can show someone how how much there is in region, in terroir, in climate, and that's very easy to teach. And that opens it's an eye-opener for for for beginners. And I've seen it. I've seen it live so many times with that wine. Most wine tasters, like I said, are lazy. I'm not saying it in a very negative way, but they're just trying to drink the wine and not like we overthink the wine. And they do the opposite. They just drink the wine. I try to learn from them as well, but because of that, they don't have the time to have 40 minutes on one glass of wine and try to think and let it open and define the complexity of it. So when it's so approachable and so much in your face, they could get it. A wine to surprise, surprise an experienced wine drinker. Surprise an experienced wine drinker. Wine lover. Wine lover. For me, it's gonna be always a dry red from the Douro Valley. Most people know Douro Valleys, even wine lovers, from port wine. And you can get so much of, especially non-kosher world, but also in kosher wines. Approachable in price wines, dry red wines, or even dry whites, but dry reds from native grape varieties, good blends, even without oak at all, that you're gonna absolutely love.

You mentioned dry ports. What keeps them alive?

It's not dry ports. I think in the, in the, in the Israeli approach to what they call port style. is that it should be a very sweet wine. And in general, our red wines are, are pretty sweet. So, so having a, a good Port is, it's, it's like music when you have a, a song playing and the bass is just a little high. Okay? Like a reggae song where you like really hear the bass or, or blues when you really hear the guitar. It just defines the genre.

Mm-hmm.

It's not really, it's not out of balance within the context. So the sweetness there is just, it's a little higher in sweetness, a little higher with the alcohol. And it creates this magnificent wine. It's not just straight up sugar bomb, straight up sugar bomb into your mouth. And that's what I really learned in Portugal. They drink it there with a nice piece of cheese and a cracker for dessert, and that's good enough. And this wine could age well in any ways. When those wines age, their sweetness goes a little higher, and their blends are usually blends of a few years together. They're mostly non-vintages. And when you have a—

so I didn't even know that it's like champagne, right? Like they're mostly non-vintage because they blend them together to get the consistent.

So you have there, you have Ruby, Tawny, and LBV. If you want to, you can only make an LBV from a Ruby and not from a Tawny. And when you see a year, a 10-year-old port, it's like in whiskey, it means the youngest is 10 years. 10 years. I drank about a year ago with one winemaker in Portugal, a 40-year-old port, which means the youngest is 40 years old, which he told me that his grandfather started and he, he bottled throughout. Him and his father made all the wines together. Super, super complex, super approachable, very silky, very smooth, a little bit sweet. So that's, that's like a big misconception about, about port. And hopefully there's gonna be more and more Port, uh, Port, uh, productions. And there's a nice scene of white and rosé Ports in Portugal. So they have sweet whites like Moscatos. Yep. Or, or, and, and a rosé Port.

A rosé Port.

Rosé Port. Yeah. Interesting. Very interesting. Not a huge fan of it, but I'm also not a huge fan of rosé in general.

Uh, you personally, you've personally opened my eyes to Portugal because I'll tell you, you know, my family is not from America. My family was from all over the world. And the people who were the really biggest Mamzerim, to be quite honest, were the Portuguese. Every, you know, and I even follow Spanish-Portuguese tefillah and what have you. But the Portuguese, my— A lot of my family's from India. were originally Iraqi. And the Portuguese, whenever they came to a port, because that's, they were sailors.

Mm-hmm.

They would, they would cause the Jews absolute grief. They were always the, the, the biggest antisemites, no matter where they went in the world. And because of that, I really have cared less about Portugal. And I know some amazing wines come from Portugal, but I just haven't, I haven't, Been willing to even taste them. So today, I taste them today.

I'd say that I travel a lot around the world. Yep. I think the least of antisemitism that I feel—I'm not saying got really approached because yeah, I didn't really experience anyone like yelling me like I'm a Jew. But there's—and when you walk in Amsterdam, for example, you feel it. You see all those Palestinian flags. You see even in New York sometimes you can feel it more. In Portugal. Everywhere I— everyone I told that I'm in the army asked to see pictures, has to always used to text me, how are you doing? Are you doing good? Yeah. I went once with Ariel Beer to Portugal and he— and, and they went crazy about him. They saw him and they always asked me, how's he doing? Once, once in like, like not far after October 7th, I was out of the University of Porto and there's a very like huge university which— and there was like 3 students That started like standing there and like yelling free Palestine or something like that, and and so many people start yelling back at them. So locals, yeah. So so I really like that's that for me it's a very safe place. I think it's the most touristically missed place in in in Europe. Portugal is so much different. The climate, the weather, the people are way more simple and and and very nice in general. And scenery is beautiful. And if you love wine, you see vineyards and wineries absolutely every, every, everywhere. Every small kiosk sells wine by the glass. Wow.

Awesome. Thank you really so much for being on the Kosher Terroir with me. Pleasure. I really look forward to the next time. It's unbelievable. We can talk for hours. You know, I just want to get one last thing out of you. Tell me a little bit about which wines you bring in. Can you go through the?

Yeah, can you go through this?

So because I want you to be able to market something here a little bit.

I'm sorry. So that's a service for the public. But yeah, so we have we have a let's say a classic Bordeaux that we bring in just because we needed something at that price point. So we have it's called Marquise de Bois. Okay. It's Young Bordeaux blend, and we have a semi-sweet Sémillon Sauvignon Blanc, which is very approachable and works amazingly by Russian community somehow. And we're bringing yeah, it's bestseller there. And we're bringing in an IGP Atlantique very soon, which is kind of an up-and-coming AOC from from Bordeaux region because it's very flexible. Okay, they're allowed to have 9% alcohol in their wine. They're allowed to have about 15 to 20 grape varieties there. The style is way more approachable, and it's still like an official AOC. That's the French way to adapt to what's happening and also giving winemakers a way to approach. So we're bringing about 3 wines from there in the next few months. We are— we have our Essa wines from by Josh. That we bring in exclusive for Israel, exclusive for Israel: the Pinot Noir and the Nebbiolo. And then we have the Acacia Sémillon, which is a fantastic white wine. We have Cabernet Franc, a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Malbec, and the Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon. We're having coming in very soon from Portugal a brand called Cano, which we're going to have also Vinho Verdes coming in from there, quite a few blends, and. Douro Valley dry wine. We have in production in Lisbon region in Portugal a beautiful red blend and a white blend that will be very much approachable in price and entry level. That's going to be coming, coming in soon. We have the Oddwires Creek from New Zealand. So we have the Oddwires Creek as a single vineyard, which doesn't exist anywhere in the world besides Israel. We picked Single vineyard to make a very, very crisp and clean and higher level New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. And then we have the Haricó Hawaii, which is the more approachable, accessible New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. We have the Arcum Roble, the Arco de Corriel from Ribera del Duero, which is the only kosher Ribera del Duero out there right now. That's the region where Tempranillo comes from. That's a real Tempranillo. This wine is very appreciated. Worldwide, it also got 95 in decanter now, and it's we're having also the Robles, the one that was aged for four months in oak, another eight months at the winery, and we're gonna have the Kianza and Reserva coming in in the next few years. And that's a great story of a winemaker, Spanish winemaker in his seventies, that after October seven wanted to see how he could contribute to the Jewish world. Wow! He didn't know how, so then he understood that he could. Jews drink kosher wine. So he turned the entire winery kosher. And there's like small stories that people don't even know of, but there are some people out there.

That's so crazy because it's, you know, all we hear is the negative side of the politics coming back.

Right.

And then you've got people who feel like this. They should really be supported in every way possible.

100%. That's what I say every time I talk about this winery because I think He's not running around telling it. It's a feeling that the guy had and he took action. And his way, the only way that he knows, he knows how to make wine. So the entire winery is kosher. It's not just a small kosher run. It's not, the entire winery is kosher.

So he's probably the second kosher winery there.

That's completely kosher?

Kosher, yes.

Yeah, LV and them. Right, there's other kosher runs in wineries.

There are other kosher runs in wineries. I mean, you've got, What you call it?

Yeah. Yeah, you have a new, uh, a new— you have quite a few. You have actually—

no, I'm sorry, because Ramón Córdoba—

yeah, it's not— Ramón Córdoba is produced in Ramón Bilbao. It's just a brand. Yeah, Ramón Bilbao is one of the biggest wineries in Rioja. So we have, we have that. We have coming in also from Veneto very soon. We're going to have a Pinot Grigio from Veneto. Cabernet de Veneto and Merlot de Veneto and an Amarone. Wow. That I'm hoping to bottle very soon. Oh, and a Prosecco that I'm making in Veneto. That's also those coming in the next 3, 4 months, hopefully all of these wines. And starting production in Greece this week. Okay. Of Assyrtiko. Assyrtiko.

I was gonna say it. You're making an Assyrtiko? Wow. Yeah, yeah.

really hope that we're going to get there, like we'll be able to make it well in time, but it should be— it should start this week. And Assyrtiko, and then also another red from a native variety.

What about Cyprus? You making anything in Cyprus yet?

No, not yet, not yet. There's— I tried to make something in Cyprus, but I think I need to do it gradually. And Greece interests me a lot more than Cyprus. Our Cyprus audience should forgive me, but no, they have so many. I think Greece has so much to discover. Like there's so much to discover in Greece and especially in the kosher world. There's like really nothing. And it's very, very, very like for us, like the style, the flavors, and they have native Greek varieties, which I always try to do. Look for, right? Pretty much. I think that's, that's, we covered what we're doing this year and what we have here.

So all of this is being imported into Israel, right? Do you import to, you know, bring in the things into the United States, into other places?

So I had previously sold some of the Portuguese wines I used to make, and, and Sol das Bojas from Vinho Verde is selling in the US. And I— Essa, obviously, through Joss, is sold by Royal in the US. And the rest of the wines As of now, I'm still in contact with a few distributors there, and we're still trying to find the right fit for the wines. But hopefully in the next few months also, at least some of them will reach the market there. Very cool. But for now, our main market is right here in Israel.

I love it. I love it. You've just cultivated a new consumer for your wines. So awesome, awesome. Because normally I would walk past the Portuguese. I'm telling you, I see Portuguese wines all over and, and I just walk right past them. I won't even touch them. And now I will, I will. I'll explore it. I, I really look forward to it. Very cool.

Pleasure.

Pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.