From $10 Million to $140 Million & Beyond - Trent Tillman's Blueprint for Success

What lessons can you learn from an agency that started 23 years ago at roughly under $10 million in revenue and now today will exceed $140 million in revenue? On today's Agent Leader podcast, I have the privilege of interviewing Trent Tillman, President and Chief Revenue Officer of True North. And Trent's going to talk about many components to his agency's growth, but ultimately that it comes down to three things. People, culture, and leadership. So many lessons to be learned in this podcast. Get your pen and paper ready. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to the Agent Leader podcast. This is the podcast for agency leaders to learn, to grow, to develop and ultimately become their best version possible. Excited today to have a fantastic guest. This is the president and CRO of True north, which is a top 100 agency. We'll talk about that. I've got Trent Tillman with with me today. Trent, welcome to the Agent Leader podcast.

Thanks, Brent. Glad to be here.

Awesome. Well, I, I did, I did my homework. Although I know you all pretty well and some of the things this was brag on your webpage and you can take this further wherever you want. But I see you've got top workplaces in the US and Iowa. Most giving companies in Iowa, coolest place to work. That's pretty awesome. And as you mentioned, you're currently. I know there's different publications out there, but number 36 of all the top 1 insurance agencies all over. So again, part of what you've done in your role and what True north is, continues to do is, is quite impressive. And so if you would, Trent, just start with an overall background, maybe a little bit about yourself, your experience and getting in the industry and then of course an overview of True north as a company.

Yeah, no, that sounds great. I appreciate it. And yeah, thanks for the shout out. It's. We're, we're certainly proud of our culture and our people and all those accolades are really a testament to, to our people. So we're very blessed. Yeah, I'll give you a little bit of background on myself and I can talk a little bit about True North. So I started off at True north right out of College in 2003. My background, I grew up in the Des Moines area. My dad actually owned an mga. So I grew up in and around the insurance business. My first job was working for him issuing certificates of insurance and binders and working with the agents that they worked with. And so I had a lot of kind of administrative background experience in my early early years. And he also did retain an element of a retail business. As well. So I got to see him working with clients. So I had a lot of exposure. I enough where I went to college and majored in finance and real estate because I figured I would chart a different path. But there's never any good summer jobs in commercial real estate unless you want to get coffee for a broker. So I ended up doing summer jobs for him. I had an internship at Holmes Murphy. One summer internship with a life insurance in Des Moines. Life insurance company Ameris Life Insurance Company which is now. It's been rolled up into a few different things. So. But anyway, so I had a lot of experience. The folks at True north had gotten a hold of my resume from the head of the finance department at uni and saw I had a bunch of insurance experience. And they reached out to me and I was in my final couple months of school. I was really kind of trying to narrow down which of the commercial real estate brokers in Des Moines I wanted to go work for. And I got a phone call from them. At that point in time, I didn't know who True north was. I never heard the name. I'd grown up in the business. I thought I knew most of the names of insurance brokers in the state of Iowa. And. And the reason being they were really 18 months old at that point in time. So True north was pretty young. And it's in its as True north again. I'll share a little bit about that in a second. Anyway, I came down to Cedar Rapids and met with the. What was our COO at the time as well as a guy named Jason Smith, who's now our CEO. And Jason's a couple years older than I. He was in the transportation practice as a young producer looking to bring in a college grad to run alongside him and look really evolve into production and go sell and grow the business. And they laid out a plan at that point in time. So True north in 2001 when it first came together, was roughly 9 million of revenue, maybe 10 million and probably 80 employees by the time I was there. It was rushing against 100 employees and, you know, maybe 12 million of revenue. One of the key focus areas that was really had our first big niche as a firm was transportation. So. And Jason had really been the first to really specialize in any type of a niche. And he wanted me to come in and join him in building really the transportation practice of True North. And so they laid out. We used to have these road maps, literally like fold out road map looking things. And. And it was a ten year business plan that said, you know, here's where we're at today, here's where we're going. We're going to foster the development of our young people. We're going to help you learn the business, we're going to teach you insurance sales, the trucking world, etc when the time's right, we'll let you loose to go produce. And if you do well at that, you may earn the invitation to become a partner in the firm. And so one of the things that True north did when they founded the firm in 2001 is they put rules in place that at age 62, equity needed to begin to transition, which you could then start to see as a young guy coming out of college. But I knew that there would be buying opportunities coming up. You had some folks in their 50s, some are rushing against 60 already. And so you, there was a lot of you could just sense the opportunity in that. And so my background, being my dad and being in an mga, I understood the value of a niche. I understood the unique culture that True north had for my different exposures. I understood the development and investment they were going to make in me. So the kind of the rest is history. I ended up pivoting my path and put the real estate idea on the shelf and moved to Cedar Rapids. Started the Tuesday after Memorial Day of 2003. So I've been at True north my entire career. So 21 years and some change later, you know my, my path through the firm was carry the briefcase, became a producer, worked really hard and built my book and earned the opportunity to become a partner with that became some responsibility for team and then that evolved to responsibility for the entire transportation division and that evolved to responsibility for the whole firm. So as we sit today, Jason CEO, I'm president, we co lead the organization. I spend most of my time focused with our EVPs of the divisions of True north on how are we growing our business, how are we developing producers, what innovation should we be making, etc. So true north, I'll give you a little background on True north as a firm. Again I mentioned formed in 2001 as a merger of three local Cedar Rapids shops, so Insurance Services Corp. Davis, Jones, Lamb and Verhelion Associates, all of which were 25 to 50 year old cedar Rapids based firms. All of them had hit really kind of a ceiling of complexity. So they had each hit really a size where they were were bumping up against their ability to continue to scale and grow because the, you know, the presidents and the principals of those agencies were the number one salespeople, but also they were the head of hr, the janitor and the CFO all at one. And they all shared the same pain. And actually they all shared a fractional COO that helped bring them around the table and say, you know, you guys each have unique focuses in areas. You, you have a little bit of overlap from a competitor standpoint, but not a lot of. And if you pooled it all together, you could address your customers needs more holistically and provide really integrated solutions with the team of specialists and you would have enough extra resource where you could hire a professional management team to run the business and you can focus on what your unique abilities are which is growing the business. And so that was the nexus of True north and again founded in 2001, they pulled it together that fall. So we're right at roughly the 23 year anniversary of True North. As times marched on as we sit today, we are sitting at roughly 625 employees kind of throughout the entire platform. We'll do about 141,142 million of revenue this year is what was what it's looking at. And that's really broken into some, some key chunks. So we have True north as a brand which really has four main divisions. There's a transportation focus, a risk management focus which is basically pnc, that's everything other than trucking, employee benefits. And then we have risk and workforce solutions group that is really non brokerage services such as safety and loss control or HR consulting, et cetera. So those are really the four main divisions of True north and that's roughly 95 million of that revenue. We have another group called First Main street which is under the True north umbrella, which is really a, where we've gone out and we've actually aggregated up a lot of small town agencies across the state of Iowa and now into Minnesota, South Dakot Dakota, looking at Nebraska, looking at some in Wisconsin. And that's, that's been really a kind of a fun business to see evolve. Just from the standpoint of you got a lot of small town agencies out there that don't have great succession plans. We're able to provide that and let the, we typically there's a local owner that stays in place. You know, we might buy 75% of the agency but you, we retain some level of local operation but then we're able to help them automate the back room. You know, HR Systems, our EPIC agency management system, our shared contracts with the insurance companies, et cetera. So we can we can really help bring the value of that agency up and keep that agency which you know is part of that core of the community, particularly you know, these small towns across the Midwest. Keep that in place and keep that in that town is kind of really a rock in that community. And then we have what we call strategically related organizations where we've invested in things that are non retail insurance brokerage. So we have an MGA that we've bought, we've got a claims management firm we've bought, we've got a professional safety consulting firm that we've bought. So all those are really firms that are associated with the value proposition that we might bring, but they're not retail insurance brokerage like First Main street and True north as brands are. So that rounds out the balance of our portfolio. So we've done acquisitions in that First Main street and then that strategically related organizations world, the True north core. We've done some acquisitions over the years but most of that growth has been organic growth. So that's, we, we spend a lot of effort on trying to grow that organic machine. It's a lot cheaper to grow that than it is to buy businesses. So if we can, if we can retain that balance, that's good. Our overall goal has been to try to grow at 15% or year over year with the mix of the organic growth being, you know, 10% of that and maybe 5% being the acquisition component. So that's, that's kind of a quick overview. Maybe the one thing I forgot to mention, we do have a financial strategies team where we're doing 401ks and some funky life insurance type stuff. And that sits really inside of our employee benefits group is where that's housed inside of our, our firm as well. So that's kind of just 30,000 foot true north. A little bit of my background, a little bit of the firm background.

It's, it, it's amazing. It's a great, I mean it really is. I know it's a consistent process but what a, what a success story you've had. I mean going back I wrote down, you know, you put out the map or whatever and you know, years ago, here's what we're going to try to be. And here you are sitting, you know, I said 100, what, 42 million in revenue and all the different things and the operations and I think the big thing I, I, I want to ask a follow up question on is of course is to grow that. It requires people and you know, one of the things that, that I believe in I know you and your organization believe in because you have an exceptional culture. I mean, some of those things I read earlier, they don't just come. These awards don't just come just because, you know, they come like you, you, you've earned the right to that. But it's about growing your people to grow the agency. And you know what I really appreciate about what you all foster is the idea that we are an agency of people growth. And the other thing you said there too was just getting people in their unique ability or doing the things they do best. So maybe I'll just start with this. I mean, how is it. I know that's this is a very broad question, so take it wherever you want, Trent. But how has True north been able to truly invest and help grow people? Because that's really what it's all about. What are, what's something or some things that True north has done in that regard?

Sure, yeah. No, it's a great question and a great call out. You know, I, I had this conversation here recently with some of our team. I can remember back when, in my early career when people would come to True north and they'd comment like, you guys have something special here. You know, you're going to have to work hard to protect it as you continue to grow, you know, and at that point we were just roughly over 100 employees. That's always stuck with us. Right? So I think we've, maybe what I'm getting at is we've been without real with either realizing it or not. We've been very intentional about trying to protect that, you know, forever in a day. Since we really were small. We truly do believe in our, you know, people. Determining wins is actually one of the taglines for what do we use inside of True north and outside. That is the core of what makes us successful, you know, as a service related organization or service focused industry organization. I mean, we don't have a tangible product, right? I mean, yeah, certainly there's insurance policies and whatnot, but what, what is for sale is the knowledge of our people and the service of our people and the experience that they bring to our customers. And so what I will tell our people is at the end of the day, when our producers are out selling, they're selling you, they're selling our firm, which is the collection of our people and the unique abilities they all bring to the plate. We, we have, as we've continued to grow, we've been able to invest in things like really our talent development group. We have folks that are, you Know, they really are focused with all of our operational leaders on how are we going to develop and grow our people. Everything from technical skill to business acumen to leadership. We've partnered with, you know, obviously on the producer side. Sitkins, we've partnered with, we've worked with the group called the Table Group, which is Patrick Lencioni's group. That really is more of how do you think as a leader and how do you, you know, how you can effectively manage and run your business. And it's not specific to insurance, it's just in, you know, in general. But we've, we've done a lot of things like that. We've got some professional coaches that we'll tap into from time to time, depending on the role and position. But we're big believers in how do we, how do we grow our people. And, you know, we, we aspire that every person we bring on. We want True north to be a career company for them and we want to help them grow. You know, my story is, you know, even though I'm in the role I'm in, that's not unique to True North. There's a lot of folks that came out of college and have spent their entire career at True north and their senior account managers or their operational leaders or senior producers, you know, that's, it's really, there's a lot of opportunity in our firm and as we continue to grow, one of the things we've started to really embrace is the fact that there's career ladders, you know, and what really is we've, we now have multiple divisions and multiple teams, multiple practices, etc, we've come up with this. It's career lattice. You know, somebody might start as a, as an account manager in our construction group and move into our transportation division when there's an opportunity for more of a senior account manager role or, you know, a broker role or something else. And so there's the opportunity to really kind of move around and find your place inside of True north and find the, find the opportunities to continue to grow as an individual because, you know, everybody wants, you know, some level of individual growth. We're able to provide that to them and we want to embrace it and, and support it versus stifle it or be selfish with it amongst team members. So that's been, that's been really effective for us. You know, there's probably other things. I mean, we, we have a, we, we're, we're very passionate about, you know, we'll talk about your culture is basically what you expect minus what you'll tolerate. And we take that to heart. And you know, I believe that starts with leadership and it's, it also transcends to producers, you know, producers, and I am one. So I can, I feel I can, you know, say this safely. I mean producers can be alpha personalities and they can be difficult to work with. And so we work, I spend a lot of time with the producers of helping them understand how to more effectively work with the team and what's expected and, and what we'll tolerate. And that's we've been very blessed because we've got really good producers and partners inside of the firm that really check your ego at the door is again another saying of ours. And they do, and we expect that. And so all of that then I think transcends into our culture where our people feel empowered, they feel part of the team. Jason and I will talk. Boss is a four letter word. I, I, I hate it when if I get introduced and say this is my boss, like we don't, I, I, we work with 600 and some odd people. We don't have people, 600 some odd people working for us. That, it's just never, I've never been wired that way any, nor is he. So I think that kind of starts up top and we really live that on a daily basis. We just, we're blessed to work with and support all of our people. You know, our job at the end of the day is to set our people up so that they can do their best work and clear the roadblocks for them.

Wow, it's super powerful trend again. It just goes back to success of the organization and could you share with me? I wrote it down, but I think it's important for the audience too. You talk about culture the way that you define it. Say that again. I'd love for you to share that.

Yeah. And it's not we lifted this from someone, but it just resonated with us. It was something along the lines of culture is what you expect minus what you tolerate. So think of a math equation, right? So everybody talks about I, this is what is expected. But really what you tolerate diminishes that and that's what you're left with. So.

Yeah.

Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

No, that's my fault. I, I, I, I didn't mean to cut you off there. I just, it was interesting. We, we've talked about this before, you know, different trainings that we've done, but this idea of do not complain about that which you tolerate and there's a Lot of truth to that. You know, how many organizations are like, well, there's this, they're doing this. It's like, well, do you allow it? You tolerate it? Yeah, I guess we do, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So your culture really hits home with that.

Yeah. Yes, it's really, really good.

I, I want to kind of follow up on some of that too because again, there's so much, so much success here. I know we've got, you know, we don't have forever, so there's only so many questions. But what hit me when you said this, Trent, was like, if you, if you are an individual in our organization, this is what I heard and tell me if I'm off here that's committed to growth and development, we'll find a place to deploy you.

Yeah, right.

I mean, to, to, to a degree. And you know, I think that sets the foundation because it is unusual in today's world to have people work multiple years in organization. We can look at studies of how many people switch job for job, job, job. And what you're really fostering is that culture of it is a career path. It doesn't mean it's guaranteed. But if you do the things that you're capable of, we will do our best to help you evolve and grow and develop in the organization. What I mean, this may sound like an obvious question or maybe there's an obvious answer to it, but like, what has that done? Because you got, you know, best place to work and all these things. But tell me what that's fostered in the organization from like a, an emotional standpoint, because that's powerful stuff.

Yeah, well, you know, one of the things that I remember was on the, one of the, you know, explained that roadmap that we used years ago and the, the final year on that road map I think was 2011. Right. Because it's 10 year roadmap from 2001 and we wanted to be a destination company was where that roadmap kind of ended up at. And a destination company was defined as for clients or insurance companies want to partner with us and our colleagues are wanting to be here. And so, you know, I do believe that, that, that is true, that the, the accolades are great, but the culture kind of speaks for itself. Right. We, we've been very blessed, but we, we have a tremendous interest of employees, prospective employees wanting to come to True North. And so we actually, as an example, we're, we're just starting our internship program for next. We're doing it, we're actively, we're doing internship Interviews right now for next summer. Already we established what we're going to have is a new business development internship next summer. We're going to hire six to nine positions specifically in a business development track. Within the first week, we had 65 applicants just out of University of Iowa in Northern Iowa. And we're, we're still trying to get to Iowa State and some of the other, you know, local colleges. So we've got a tremendous interest in True north and the brand and the reputation. And I don't know that, I mean, maybe it does. The accolades maybe carry some weight, but I think it's our people in the community talking about who we are, what we do, what we're all about. And it just what it feels like to be part of our firm that allows the, you know, we're getting a lot of great interest from a lot of great prospective colleagues. And so as we look to grow, I, I had said years ago, like our biggest challenge to growth isn't about unique things to sell. We, we have that. It's going to be making sure we've got access to great people to allow us to grow. So both, both staff and producers. I mean, that is the trick. It's a, it's a people game more than anything else. We have to be able to attract talent. And so we've been blessed. Cedar Rapids is a, you know, we're a great community in Iowa. We're roughly a 200,000 people community. But it is, it's kind of one of those, you got to want to be here. And so the city's done a good job of attracting more young talent. And we're a half hour from the University of Iowa, but we've also opened up an office in Des Moines. We've got an office in Denver, Colorado and an office in Chicago. So therefore we can recruit from the school. And if you got, you know, we have this, these examples where I want to go live in Denver, I want to live in Chicago. That's fine. We can, we can put you there. And so we've been able to grow those offices. You know, those started off as really acquisitions of some, some firms. What they really evolved to is those are just extensions of our, of the home office. It's, it's, we do have local presence in local business and that we're working on. We actually, it's, it's not uncommon to have staff members sitting in either any of those remote office that are servicing business in another office. So we've got a producer in Colorado who runs our real estate Practice. He works with producers in all the other units and I should say all the other divisional or divisional, the regional locations. We've got account managers that service books of business for producers in Cedar Rapids, but they live in Des Moines or Chicago. So we've been able to leverage that footprint to actually give people the opportunity to be where they want to be, but also be a part of the firm at the same time. So that's been beneficial to us as well. And you know, those are things that have come with growth. Those didn't exist 10, 15 years ago. So we've had to kind of just work our way to that place. But it is, it is kind of a, an extra arrow in our, in our quiver right now.

Yeah, well, I mean, and you kind of said this, Trent. I mean, the accolades, I'm sure, are great. I mean, it's, it's good PR and all that, but it's like with a client, you know, if I say it, it might be true. If you say it, it is.

Yeah.

If you've got a team of all these employees that are saying, hey, this is a great place, that's what speaks values.

And I'm sure, here's the thing with some of those deals, like Greatest Places to Work, for example, to be in that there's two things. It's a survey that all your colleagues take. So we, and then we get the survey results. And we actually, our biggest interest in partaking of that is simply to get the results of the survey. We want to understand what our people are feeling and work. We can continue to make fine tune and make improvements to get better.

Yeah.

And we take that to heart. We share, we get the survey results, we summarize them, but we'll share them with all of our people. Like, all right, here's the feedback, here's where you said we're doing a good job and here's where we potentially need to make some tweaks. And we're going to do that. And so we continue to communicate that we're here, you, we hear what you're saying, we're going to continue to fine tune and tweak and hopefully get better. And then we'll report back on how we're doing. And then we're going to do another survey and you tell us if we've made improvement. And so the fact that, you know you can, if you give a survey, you get results, you do nothing with it, people will never take it again or they'll give you really bad reviews the next time we've been able to continue to enhance or move up in the rankings for some of those just because our people are giving us great feedback. Also we get great engagement to even being considered for some of those. I think you have to have like 80% participation of your staff. If you don't like, they just kick, they kick you out. So we've got good engagement of our people and we're taking it serious for the feedback they give us from a leadership perspective to really act on it, to continue to fine tune and oil the machine.

Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, yeah, 80% of that group, it's, that's impressive alone.

So, yeah, it might be 60 or 80. I don't know. I don't know the exact one.

It's a lot. All right. We won't hold you to it, but.

Either way it's, it's, it's a majority of your people have to be a part of that. So. Yeah, partake. Yeah.

Hey there, agent leader Brent Kelly here want to take just a few seconds to remind you that now is the time to create your true, best version possible agency. If you go to sitkins.com bookacall sitkins.com bookacall we'll get to know more about your agency, conduct an agency assessment and provide your agency with a customized plan to help you avoid some of the pitfalls, frustrations, challenges and roadblocks to get your agency to true ultimate freedom and become its best version possible. It all starts by going to sitkins.com bookacall One thing I want to hit on too, and obviously so much about culture. I mean, I know there's agency leaders. Listen, you know, you're a, you're a producer. You still produce today, right? Even in your role of all these things. Obviously we have a relationship around, you know, production and development. I'm curious, just, you know, because you're looking at 10 organic growth, 5% acquisition. Right. Part of that as you continue to foster and of course, the bigger the numbers get, there's challenges to that. So maybe I'll phrase it this way. What's, what's one area where you believe True north has really excelled in the sales, the production game? And what do you think is the biggest challenge from right now moving forward to continue that growth?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think, you know, where we've, where we've really excelled is where we've really gotten into niche specialization. So I mentioned transportation is a good example. Yeah, that was the, really the first niche, if you will, that, that we started to build a team around like that's the only thing these producers are going to target. Before that, when True north came together, you know, one of the firms, they focused in larger risk management. But the producers had, you know, they had some trucking accounts, they also had some manufacturing accounts and some large contractors here in eastern Iowa. We, we really went deep. And when Jason came out of college in the late 90s and started at True north, he was the first to identify. I'm just going to call the trucking companies and then, you know, a couple years later I joined and you know, some others and we started to build that focus in that team and you know, we'll do 40 million or so of revenue in transportation today. We've got the, we've been blessed. We, we really targeted the larger trucking companies and so we work with a big chunk of the top 100. We, we've got a unique niche there. Most of our competition in that side actually has historically been, you know, Aon, McGriff, Marsh locked in. So it's kind of, it's been fun. And particularly when we were younger and no one knew True north was. And then we'd show up meeting with these guys, they're like, who is, who are we competing with? And we were able to play. We've, we've tried to replicate that. So our construction specialty group has really grown. We'll do 10 plus million of revenue there. We've got a professional liability group. We've got a, a really, a thriving agriculture practice out of our Des Moines office. It's probably our fastest growing practice in all True North. In the last three years, they've grown at 25 each year. So I would say specialization has been huge for us. You know, the thing that's been interesting really, I'm going to probably list a couple challenges, if you will. One is one thing we identified as we really got in deep into specialty is we were ignoring our backyard. So it would be commonplace to be somewhere around town just seeing friends and you know, they'd be talking about, you know, their insurance needs for whatever their local business is. And you know, I'd give a feedback and we didn't know True north did that. I thought you worked on mega deals and specialty. No, we can, we can actually, we have that ability too. So one of the things we did earlier this year is we started what we call our community practice to really focus on and address this, you know, eastern Iowa corridor. And it's working extremely well. And we're actually looking to replicate that in our other regional offices in Des Moines, Denver and Chicago. Another challenge I would say that we've been faced with is we've, you know, to your point, growing at 10 organically. When you get to these size of numbers, I mean, if you just take the True north part, which is 95 million to grow at 10%, we gotta, we gotta add basically the size of True north when it was founded as New Business next year. Right. Which is a, that's a heavy lift. Now we have a healthy group of producers and it's, it's doable, but we need more producers. And one of the challenges we have is, is really that development dialing in that development of production capacity. So, you know, it used to be more of a one on one mentorship approach and you could do that when we were smaller. Now we need to bring in classes of producers and so evolving our thinking to match their needs and give them the tools they need to succeed. That's, that's where we're at in our growth trajectory right now. That's, you know, part of our partnership with you guys is, is helping us through that, which is very valued, but it is a challenge. The other piece of it is, to your point, and I'd mentioned this, I mean, myself, Jason, others, we, we still are producers, but we're not, it's not our full time job. And for a long time you could count on a group of us to drive a lot of growth. And so in a roundabout way, and I know a lot of smaller agencies face this as well. I mean, you've taken the, the growth engine and diverted their energy to other things. And so we're trying to, how do we backfill for that? And that's a tough one and we're working through it, but it's definitely a growing challenge. What we, we're trying not to have to do is, is to just go out and start buying agencies to meet our growth goals. We are doing that with the first main side, but that's not, that's not the core and it's not kind of the larger account specialty world that we're, we're trying to grow organically. So I don't know that I have a great answer yet other than we're trying to figure it out.

Well, you know, I, I don't know. There always has to be an answer because part of the answer is in the process and figuring it out. You know, I mean, it's like there's probably things, you know, today that 10 years ago, like, I don't know, we don't know the Answer. We're just trying to figure it out. And then you figured it out and there's a. There's a bigger batter problem, I guess, so to speak, in terms of. Right. You know, higher levels and, you know, it's interesting trend. My brain, I always think of like mental images. It's like, you know, as you keep. You're getting larger, you've got. Imagine like, I don't know, a person's a bunch of different marbles or whatever. And every time you give something away, you're giving a few marbles here and here. And that engine gets a little smaller. Right. At different areas. So how do you, how do you build that back foundationally? And it's not. You're right. It's. A lot of agencies struggle with that, for sure. It's not even just finding developing producers, but who are the people they're going to help mentor and be around and share that. And so it's. To me, it's continuing to evolve the model. And I think that's. And I have no doubt you guys will continue to do that. You know, you mentioned our relationship, and this is not about us, about you. But I'm always curious because you've, you know, you've known Sitkins well before I joined the firm seven years ago in different aspects. But what's an area again, whether. Maybe it's a philosophy, a strategy, a process, something that you all True north have gravitated to and used. It's been helpful and successful for your business operations?

You know, I think so. Yeah. Our relationship with Sitkins goes back to really the. At the very beginning of True north, so 20 plus years ago. I remember my first year out of college, I went to the producer training camp, the three sessions. And in. Yes, we've had a long history. I would say that one of the things that's been very helpful for us, that it's a, it's, it's as simple as a slogan, but it's much more than that. But it's the same goals with different roles. And we've used that throughout the entire firm. And people get it and they understand allows really the entire team to connect with what we're trying to do. So one of the things we did at the beginning of this year is we rolled out. There's a book, and I couldn't tell you the guy that wrote it, but it was called Vivid Vision. It's through the COO alliance and our COO is part of that. But the whole idea being, you know, if you could craft a vision for who you want to be, you know, down the road. What is that? And so we spent a lot of time. We read the book, we spent a lot of time crafting that vivid vision. We added, you know, some aspirational numbers to it. Just naturally that's. We're wired that way. But, you know, we. We put that all together, but then, you know, we lay that out for our. All of our people and done that different sessions with everybody in a lot of q and a, etc. And, you know, as you can, we want to try to double the size of the firm in the next. By the end of 2028, we'd like to be at 250 million. So when we roll this out last year, you know, we were wrapping up at 120 or so million. So that was the doubling of. In five years and really getting our people to connect with that and understand that actually this is the goal and we all have the same goal and everybody has their role in it and starting to then connect everybody to what that vision is and where they play. You know, we. We will talk about. We. I think we do a tremendous job of getting people engaged emotionally and attached emotionally to the true north and who we are and what we're about. I mean, now it's getting attached intellectually to where we're going. And so using that same goals, different roles, has allowed us to really connect with the people and to help them think about what they're doing. You know, everybody from the, you know, the front desk to the people in accounting to HR or IT to the account managers and so on and so forth. And certainly the producers were kind of the most clearly know. Can see it clearly. But it's. That's been very helpful for us, and it's allowed us to also think about, you know, one of the keys to growth is make sure we keep what we got, right, our retention numbers. So. And that's where everybody has a. Has a role in that. For sure. For sure. So let's. If we can't. We can't cross the Atlantic if we got a hole in the boat, right? So let's make sure there's no holes in the boat. We're not leaking. And once.

It'S, you know, I think of the vivid vision. I know you've mentioned that book, and I have to go back, and admittedly, I haven't read it, but I know you've talked about it before. I heard it from Jason, but it is interesting. I've shared this in other episodes, but, you know, I heard this quote a while back, leaders see more and before others. Right. And be able to hate to create that compelling, powerful vision. And the other part of that is how do I attach people specifically with what they're trying to do? Um, and I overuse sports analogies, and I overuse this analogy too much. I don't care. It's mine. I like it because it's simple, because it's football. I mean, you know, the.

The. The.

The vision, the goal is we got to get in the end zone. And we've got 11 different positions in this case, and there's some similarities in some, but every role, every position is different, and we've got to figure that out.

Right.

What's my specific function? How does this relate versus is. I joke about, you know, the quarterback snapping the ball themselves, dropping back, throwing the pass and throwing it and catching himself. Right. It doesn't work that way. So being aligned is critically important on that. And again, it'll be fascinating and seeing and working with you how that continues to evolve and create, you know, to get those people to think about their role as it pertains to the vision. And I love. I love the work you're doing there. All right, Trent, I have one official final question, and then anything you want to throw in that I didn't ask you that you wish I did, or something you want to share if you'd like to do that, but this is more of a personal question, so to speak. When I say personal, don't you know I'm going somewhere too personal, but just about you. And specifically. And again, you've had great success and your track record, you know, building a book and all the roles that you have and the position you have within a great organization like True North. But I want to imagine for a second that you go back and see that. That Trent, let's just say 2001, sure. Things kicked off, and I don't know, maybe. Maybe you're at football game, maybe you're at a Northern Iowa game or an Iowa game, I don't know. And magically, through whatever this weird thing I'm telling you is, you bump into the younger version of you in 2001, and that younger Trent Tman looks up at you today and says, hey, wow, I've only got 30 seconds. If you can give me one piece of advice from what you've learned, what would it be? What would you share with your younger self?

Oh, man, it's a great question. I. I'm gonna. I think this. Although I. That's a tough One, because I, I feel like I just was lucky enough to have this told to me. Right.

Yeah.

But it was, it was kind of this idea of. And we've actually modified this. We even used this inside of True north now. But. And I was asked this question by actually an intern that I interviewed the other day. You know what, what advice would you give me? And I think more than anything else is find a good mentor and be a good mentee. And then what does that mean, to be a good mentee? I think there's really three things. Like, one is, do you listen? Are you coachable? And will you put in the work? And we use those three in general throughout True north, but those are the three. To me, those are key components for just a good developmental colleague. But also, if you want to be a good mentee, do that. And because one of the things I've observed and I didn't. I was fortunate enough to. To, I guess, grasp this in my early years. And I was blessed with some great mentors. Our original coo, Dwayne Smith, our CEO, Jason, you know, so on and so my dad. But I've seen so many young kids, they'll meet with a mentor and they, they kind of halfway listen. They don't put in the. They don't take the coaching and do anything with it, and they don't put in the effort. And it's disappointing because they're not successful because of that. And what they've just done is alienate what would have been a great mentor. Right. So. And I've had that happen now as I, you know, I'm 45 and I'm on the. I'm in the. I'm in the midterm of my career now. And so I have that at times. And I have. There's young folks that. They are hanging on every word, and they make every play that you recommend, and they put in the effort, and it's exciting and it's. It's rewarding. And then you have some that don't. And it's like, oh, my goodness, that was a waste of my time. You know, I, I had to say it that crass. But it is. And it's so I would say that, you know, that be a good mentee, find a good mentor, Be a good mentee. Be a good mentee by listening, being coachable, putting in the effort, work. That's.

That's great. I, I love it. And, you know, it just reminds me, I just think of this. And I had. I was part of a leadership program years ago. And they were talking about this, he said, you know, not everyone is worthy of your mentorship. And when I first heard it, I'm like, that seems kind of, you said crass or harsh. It's like, no, the reality of it is there are certain people that won't put in the time or effort, and there's people that are dying, they're hungry for it. And you got to feed the people that are hungry because otherwise you're just going to get majorly frustrated. Ones that aren't going to eat the food you're giving them.

Yes.

And you know, like you said it, you know, not only are that does that person not learn or growing, but you pretty much sabotage that opportunity relationship. Because in my opinion, I don't know what you think, Trent, but a lot of people that are mentors, I think they typically enjoy giving advice or feedback to people that are hungry. But the minute they don't pour in or listen to it, they're like, I'm good. And there, there's great opportunity. And again, for the agency leaders listening, great opportunity. Whether you've got a smaller agency or an agency the size of true north of people there that are a want to be fed and people that are willing to feed and there's part of that mentorship of continue to pour in. And I think, I think what you shared there. Super valuable, Trent.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the thing that I found just to play on that a little bit more is and it's hard at times to kind of find this, but I, I guess you get enough wraps in of, you know, when you're meeting with potential candidates for, to come to the firm and kind of think about this as you're, as you're meeting with them of are they going to be, are they listening, you think? Do we feel they're coachable?

Right.

Are they going to put in the work like. Right. You can, you can start to sense it and, and that's huge when you're, when you're bringing on talent, because there's some people that seemingly on paper are extremely overqualified for maybe some of the roles and positions you want, but they don't have these characteristics. It's, it's a, you know, it's a danger, it's expensive, it's a lost year or two of opportunity versus if you could find those that have these characteristics, like, you can do a lot, they can do a lot. And it's grab those people. Yeah.

Yeah. It's again, there's so many different ways to look at this. But I mean, you know, we always joke too, like, has anybody. Was anybody born with insurance knowledge? No. Or any other type of knowledge? Well, no, but we all could be coachable if we decided to be and learn and gravitate to that. And it is. And I don't know how I wish there was, like, I'm sure you do too. Like a. A hunger or coachable box that was above their head. You can see like that, right? Um, but the reality of there's not. And some people are really good at pretending they are, but you can see pretty quickly who's that. And I love that. Listen, be coachable, do the work.

Yep.

And it's good stuff. So, any final comments before we officially wrap up this episode? Again, thank you so much for hopping on here. This has been great.

Yeah, no, I appreciate. Appreciate you having me. It's been great to just connect, hopefully some value for some of your viewership and. No, thank you. I appreciate that. But I would say this. We appreciate the partnership with Sickens. It's been valuable for us as we continue to. To grow and scale and develop our producers. And it's. It's been really good. So we thank you guys for everything you do.

No, absolutely. And, and likewise, again, it's. It's great work with agencies like yourself. So thanks so much for listening. If this episode, other episodes provided value to you, as always, like, share, subscribe, do all that podcast stuff. We love to pass along this information. More people learn and to grow. So thanks so much. Wait, you're still here? Hey, Agent Leader podcast listeners. Brent Kelly, again, I want to, first of all, thank you for listening to the Agent Leader podcast and your continued support. If you would like to have more content come your way, please help us by sharing the podcast, subscribing to the podcast, telling people about the podcast, and if you as an agent leader, are truly ready to take that next step in your agency, you're committed and want to be that best version possible. Agency, don't wait. Go to sitkins.com bookacall sitkins.com bookacall we want to provide the blueprint for your agency to help you create more impact with less effort. And it all starts by going to sitkins.com bookacall all right, now you can actually go. Thanks.