Episode 258: Creating a Sustainable Protest Brand with Jerry Wheeler, CEO of Kastlfel

Jerry, you've been involved in sustainability and organics since 2000, which is pretty amazing. I mean, making products for retail as a wholesale, private label maker. Is that correct? I mean, how did. How did you get your start? That's.

That's correct, yeah. Sales and marketing. Working with apparel for, you know, a lot of years and a lot of, you know, brands out of New York and the Southeast, and many of most people would probably know, and then ended up in production by accident, working with DirecTV in Chipotle, who requested, you know, some uniforms that were custom. And that was back in, you know, 2000, 2002, when custom was.

Right.

Pretty. Pretty new and.

Right.

We went out and built supply chains and really did custom goods. And that's how I got started in organic, because it was all about social compliance, you know, back then, working conditions. And when we got down to it, organic was really interesting because you had this transparency in the supply chain that drove so far back to the farm that you were forced to know what was going on in every step of the chain. So it's what our customers wanted at that time.

About that time, there was also the coffee movement sort of going back to organics. And was there some similarities in those two journeys?

There's a lot of similarities in, you know, cocoa, coffee.

Yeah.

Cotton. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of child labor, There's a lot of forced labor.

Right.

A lot of issues from that standpoint. So they're very similar and really extended supply chains.

You got into this because you actually have a degree in sustainability management.

Yeah, I got the degree after I got into it, to be honest.

Wow.

I learned really on the farm from. From the farmers and from a lot of, you know, folks really early on in that organic movement. And in 2007, went back and got a degree at the Presidio School of Management. Executive degree, I guess. But it was pretty intensive and probably one of the first of its kind. I think it was the Presidio School of Management and Bainbridge University that had a program, you know, now you can go to any college and they all have a sustainability program or something, some advanced degree in that space.

You probably cringe at this, this moniker then, but somewhat of a pioneer in starting and getting involved in it really early.

Yeah, it's okay. I mean, there is a lot of people before me, that is for sure. But I think back. Going back that far, you had to be pretty unreasonable. What do you mean? He just had to be unreasonable with what you were trying to get Done because it was just difficult. There was not a lot of transparency in supply chain. And you know, the whole movement of globalization was really, you know, happening. It was no longer in our backyard in the United States where you could touch and feel and have relationships. And it was extended to, you know, 5,000 miles away. And you know, I always, I always like to use the Indiana Jones analogy where, you know, he get jumps on that plane and you see the, the red dots to wherever he's going. It's like that's pretty much, you know, back then how products were made. You know, apparel was made. So wow. It was challenging.

So you were going right to the source back then from the get go?

Yeah, we were. It was a little bit backwards in that we would go to the agent or the cut and sew and then we would have to kind of fight and claw to get to the farm or get to the spinner or the dye house or whatnot. Because a lot of times they didn't want to share that information. No, nowadays people are much more open, so it's a lot easier to, to get that done.

Yeah. I'm reading a book called Warn A People's History of Clothing. And there's a chapter in that about cotton textiles. And I didn't realize that the US is the third largest exporter of cotton behind China and India. But China and India of course uses it. Their own consumption, their own factories. And that's why we're probably number three as an exporter in that there's so much of it done out of Texas. But I mean you've, you've got like a master's, if you will, in, in cotton. And in this whole process I'm jumping

ahead a little bit.

But what have you seen change in the market from when you started to now? I mean, aside from the fact that now that the market demand is. Is there?

Yeah, I think the market demand is there. The supply is still challenging. You know, it's one of the reasons we talk a lot about, you know, transitional cotton or in Europe they call it in conversion is, you know, that three year period where farmers are going from organic is really difficult. And without that there's no growth of organic. Right. Because they have to have that period to let the soil, you know, heal and do its, and do its thing to get that certification. So I think the supply side is still a challenge regardless of the demand being there now. So it's almost, I mean, you could say it's, it's more difficult now. Right.

Wow. Because of the demand.

Because the demand is high because of the demand and you know, the work that we're doing and you know, the work that the textile exchange does, who I've been, you know, I've been a member of forever, you know, does great work and they're growing, you know, quite quickly. They do, they do great work at that level. Right. At that fiber level and trying to grow that, you know, demand in a, in a really sustainable, to use a lack of a better term way.

Yeah. With the westward expansion in the US So much of that was because of new soil and new land and trying to get fresh land. Like you said about organic cotton, can you explain transitional cotton a little bit more? What does that mean? Sure.

So we at Castle for our, our fiber strategy is around transitional cotton. We don't really have an organic fiber strategy per se. So we're embracing the growth of the organic industry by saying we will, you know, work with farmers that are, you know, on a path to say, hey, I want to be more sustainable. I'm possibly going to do, you know, I'm going to reduce my chemical use and then next year I'm going to go and move into, or in next few years I'm going to become a transitional farmer and try to get that certification. But you have to under the, you know, the certification programs out there at the farm level. So the NOP, which is the USDA's program, National Organic Program, there's a three year period where they have to farm organically without pesticides, without herbicides, and they have to use those organic practices to actually achieve that certification. And it depends on where you are in the world. I think it's two years in some places. I'm not, I'm not the expert, but you know, two to three years. And that's a challenging time because they have to sell that product for conventional prices.

Right.

So we like to move in there and really try to help. And there's a lot of movements now of, you know, know, incentives to farmers and, and areas like that where we're trying to really keep them in that transitional period.

Yeah. So let's talk about Castle Fell, because Castle Fell is a fairly new brand to the end of traditional industry, I think. And it's a really cool brand experience. In 2015, you went through a rebranding. The agency you working, were working with was interested in creating your whole ethos around a green and blue sustainability brand. But you said no, you were, you're a protest brand.

What did that mean? So my, my business partner did. It was, it was Pretty funny, Will. Glennie.

He.

We were having a conversation, and we were laughing, and I was. I was getting all heated, and I'm like, God, we're going through, like, 2,000 names, right? And names are so hard. If you do find a name, then you can't find a URL and you can't get a trademark, right? I'm like, we're not green, we're not blue, we're not brown, whatever you want to call it, if it's eco friendly, right? Or eco. And he looks and he goes, what the hell are we? And I go, I don't know. We just like to do it differently. And he goes, so we're like a protest.

And I was like.

I was like, yeah, I guess we're like a protest brand, right? And, you know, time went on for a little while, and I think I was at the. You know, the story goes, is I was at the world championships in Beaver Creek 2015, where they had the ski champ world championships. And he had watched the Grammys or something because it's all around February, and he heard a song that was a protest song from the 60s, and they talked about castles burning. So he went, and he's a researcher, so he goes, and he starts noodling on, you know, castles burning, and what does this mean? And next thing you know, he's like, it's like the demise of an era, right? It's like people come into the castle, they capture the king, they put someone else in power, and hopefully everything's better, right? So they're tearing it down and they're rebuilding it, and we love this idea. And so he calls me up and I'm sitting there and I take a picture of the finish line. I can remember it. And, you know, you have all the ski brands around here in the. In the finish area, right? And he's like, castle fell. And I'm like, what? And he's like, castle fell. He goes, it's like castle and fell. We change it to a K from a C, we drop the L, we merge it together. It's a nonsense word. He goes like, haage. And we can get the trademark and everything. So I came back. We came back that week, and we wrote the word. And then I'm like, I'm gonna just Photoshop this. So I had the art department, you know, Photoshop it and put it over, you know, one of the ski brands, and to see what it looked like, I'm like, that's really cool. I'm like, it's got this refined kind of you know, look to it. And we brought that to the branding agency we were working at. And of course, they're like, we love it. And I do have to give them credit. They, you know, they came up with the mark, which really went along with the story. So what everybody thinks is a K, because where Castle Fellow is really just a metaphysical shape that can be seen as either something falling down or being torn down or being rebuilt. And it's kind of this, you know, the ethos of the brand is this continuous improvement. Right. Like, you're always redoing, you're always changing, you're always looking for new ideas. And I think that's sustainable to me, that's sustainability in general. Right. There's no absolutes in sustainability. Right?

Yeah.

Change all the time, and you're trying to do your best. You don't always make the right choices. But, you know, once people understand that, I think they get a better understanding of sustainability in general, because if they get stuck on one thing. Yeah, that's not. That's not real sustainability.

Right. It is. As I talk to more and more people who, like you, have been at this a while, are passionate about it, that does seem to be the recurring theme. Like, this is just a constantly amorphous, moving experience that you have to be ready to transition with. Just like the idea of transitional cotton. You just have to be ready to transition along with. How do you feel about kind of where we're at in the overall merchandise industry and sustainability and sustainability's impact in the brand of merchandise business?

I think there's industries that are driving most of the change. I would say the outdoor industry has been at it for a long time, and there's a connection there with the environment, outdoor activities, and I love that space. Yeah, I understand that. I think they do it for the right reasons in a lot of ways, and they're very into the transparency. And it's more than just, you know, organic cotton fiber or recycled polyester fiber. It's like, what are you doing with it? How are you doing it? And I think that's the. That's really the important, you know, part of it is understanding that. And I. And in the industry, I mean, I. I'd love to raise awareness to sustainability in general. And really, what does that mean? Because I know in. In, you know, the corporate market, it's about. Everybody wants to know about material. Am I really getting.

Right. Right.

That seems to be where it lands or, you know, how can you prove that it's certified? You know, I could name probably three or four things that are what I hear all the time when I'm at, you know, a show or something like that.

Yeah. Speaking of, you said that 80% of a garment's impact is before the product is produced. And yet like you said, we have this fixate on the actual material itself. What did you mean by that? 80% of garments impact is before the product is produced.

Yeah. So, you know, our, our approach to sustainability is really kind of from a systems view or a systems approach. Some people call it systems dynamics. Right. Really understanding how that industry or that product works or is made. And when you look at that from a life cycle perspective. Right. You have upstream and downstream. In my case, as Castle Fellow is a manufacturer of record, we're from farm to where we package that product with our partners and it goes on a truck. At that point, it's kind of out of our hands. Right.

Yeah.

We can do our best to try to shorten that distance and use good packaging and all those things. And now we're in this downstream mode where we don't have much control. So in our case, 80% of all of that product's impact is in that space. Maybe 20% of it is in the transportation and distribution of it.

Right.

And then if there's 10% in there, there's 10% left in our view. And the only thing we can do to really impact that is be designing product and supply chains and the systems to kind of promote, you know, responsible use and some type of end of life Right. To the product, which is a challenge, especially in the corporate industry. But you know, that's the, that's kind of the last piece of the, of the puzzle. Right. To try to figure out is this kind of end of life and circularity piece.

Yeah. Right. Have you made some progress in that? So when you're saying end of life, I'm assuming that's what you mean. Circularity, finding, finding home for these things.

Yeah, there's, there's, there's things we can do in design. Right. And materials that make that either disassembly or end of life easier. There's a lot of folks that, you know, it's been a movement since probably2012. Right. 2014. People were trying to figure out that recycling of garments and whatnot. It's just not easy. But I would say in the Next, you know, 10 years, there's a lot of really good technology and there's a really, a lot of good programs. I think we're going to see a big change in that, in that Space. Because there's a huge push right now.

Yeah.

To determine how to do that.

You also said it's the people that touch that you touch in the process of making a product that matters. This probably comes from your firsthand experience, like literally from farm to garment. Can you give us an example of how Calell does that?

Yeah. I mean, it's been difficult to, you know, travel quite as much, you know, post. Even pandemic.

Post pandemic. Right.

And then even getting back into that cycle of going has been. Been more challenging. And I, I think those, Those relationships and the connection to the people on the ground is what gets you to where you need to be from a perspective of true sustainability. You know, climate change just didn't happen. Right. I mean, you could argue maybe it has in some cases, but people maybe have caused it. People have caused it. People can fix it. Right. And without those relationships and understanding what they do on the farm, you know, talking to the farmer, understanding their challenges, working with the industry to try to figure out, you know, are certain elements of certification and, and things like that, you know, burdensome or important. Right. And how do we make it easier? And you can't do that without the relationships at the farm level or the fiber level or the, you know, know, any factory level. Right. I mean, you get a really different perspective of how apparel is made when you go to a dye house. Right. It's.

Right.

It's hot, it's. It's damp. You know, it's. It's not a real attractive, you know, place. And there's a lot being done to improve, you know, the, the sustainability of a product, but that a lot of times gets overlooked.

Yeah. You mentioned that you try not to promote the idea of sustainability as much as attract people to the movement through our actions. What did you mean by that? Because you seem to have a. You seem to have. Sustainability is such a loaded word. It's so. Hence it's fraught with so much misunderstanding. Is that part of what you mean by that?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, you, you. We all know there's companies out there, Right. That they put the stamp of organic or recycled on it and they feel like they've done what they're supposed to do. And that's really true promotion. Right. And I think the idea is, is telling stories and connecting with people so they understand how the things you're doing are tangible. Right. At that point, it becomes attractive. Right. And I think you can attract people to the movement and you don't have to at this point. You don't have to tell them what they, what they want to hear, so to speak. They'll go find it for themselves if you offer it to them and they'll join that movement and they'll be, you know, loyal about, you know, how they're getting there. Or they'll challenge you. Right. Which that's okay too. You know, the times that I get challenged sometimes are sometimes the best because you go and you find a new, a new avenue. Because like we said, it's. Sustainability is changing all the time. And there's, there's, you know, I'm not aware of everything that's for sure.

Right. Yeah.

We can't do it. All right. I mean, if we wanted to, didn't want to do anything, we wouldn't produce anything at all. We wouldn't want. Yeah, didn't want to.

Oh, that's a good point. There was a New York Times article that, that got a lot of press. It was titled, that organic cotton T shirt may not be as organic as you think. You're the closest expert I know to this. So what did you think of that New York Times article?

You know, I, I'm not the expert in that, in that space. I would say that that article makes it more important for brands, companies to have a kind of multifaceted approach to sustainability. Right. That's really hyper focused on organic and the certification of that organic, you know, the entire chain of custody and all the things that happen in between that product are really important. And as a brand, there's so many things you can do to do your part to make sure that that is, you know, the efficacy is there. Right. We're always going to be, you know, till the end of time. Right. There's always going to be somebody who is fraudulent or, you know, trying to work, trying to work the system. I think we all know that and I think highlighting it sometimes is important. But then again, it's like, what, what is changing? And I know, you know, the textile exchange has got some great information out there on what has changed, what continues to change, how we're, you know, how we're tracking and how we're making that more accessible. So I think those articles, you know, you gotta, you gotta bring light to those things because I think we learn from them. So.

Right. What is a fiber to shelf supplier? I saw that phrase and I liked it, but I wasn't quite sure what it meant.

Yeah, I've toyed with that one for a while. Fiber to shelf, it means something to me because of our kind of Systematic approach to building product. And I think it's really important that, you know, you.

You build.

I think I've said it before, you build relationships with those people across the entire supply chain. So you understand, you know, their challenges, they understand your challenges. And when you have that relationship, you know, you get good results. Right. And it goes back to the, you know, the article you said. It's. Right. It's pretty easy to put a rubber stamp on something and say, hey, yeah, it's organic, it's certified.

Right.

But what is the obligation of the brand and the producer, you know, to that consumer?

Right.

What. What should we be doing? And I think really driving back into that supply chain and being in touch with every single piece. You know, we all know we're not owning the factories and making all the product, but we have relationships and we can have an influence. Yeah. In that space. So, you know, from the farm all the way to the shelf, how involved am I? Do I know what's going on? I'm always striving to map that supply chain and say, hey, here's a here. I have a dark spot here. I don't understand. And I'm happy to tell people, you know, what I know and what I don't know because I think, you know, not knowing is a bad. It's a bad area to be. It's much better to know. You don't know. Yeah. In kind of the world of, you know, building apparel. So that's kind of the idea behind fiber to shelf.

Okay. Speaking of, Castlefeld is obviously selling through sns, our great partner at sns. And you came highly recommended because of your expertise and story and, and that's why we're sitting here today. What would you advise to those of us selling to corporate clients today to focus on when it comes to selling T shirts and organic cotton? Because you mentioned that a lot of our customers, a lot of our custom fixate on the final material itself. But how would you encourage those of us. I mean, some of us are talking to big brands from Google to Facebook to, you know, just major corporate America brands. How would you encourage us to approach that?

Yeah, it does take a little work, but it's, It's. It's not hard to connect the dots. Right. The key to, I think, working with any client, whether they are interested in organic or sustainable or recycled or they're not, is doing the research, digging into maybe that brand's or that clients. You know, a lot of the reports are published asking good questions, understanding what their. Their connection is to sustainability. Because if you can connect one of those dots to an organic garment, right. And say, oh, you guys are really interested in water. Did you know that organic, you know, saves X amount of water. Right. And clean water. Right. So you have this soil and this health piece. Now you've made that organic garment tangible to that customer. Right. You've given them something to connect the dot, something to grab onto that's tangible. Yeah, I won't buy anything if it's not tangible. Right. Am I going to pay more money for something that I just don't see as tangible? And I think, you know, that's up to the agency or the distributor or the sales rep at, you know, one of the groups to do that work and say, here's some really interesting information and we're providing some of that or trying to build some of that. So there's more, there's more information out there of how, you know, agencies and distributors can connect to the, connect the dots and make that product tangible.

You know, what I love about that advice is that often we think because we sell such a wide swath of product and variety, we think we have to be experts in everything. And it's really, it's almost impossible to be experts in everything, but we are experts in is our clients, our clients. And so we do know our clients, the distributor salespeople out there that are working with these big brands and working with their clients. They are experts in that client. So connecting the dots is a great piece of advice because that's something they may not be passionate about, organic cotton, but like you said, they may be passionate about water or some other aspect that we can tie together with it, which would, would make a connection, would create a story, it would build a bridge, and it sort of gets them like, puts it in a channel they understand, I think.

Yeah, you know, we, you know, with, with recycled polyester, it's, it's, it's a great avenue as well, because you can just go straight into someone who has a waste, you know, initiative, right. As a recycling, you know, program. It's a, it's an easy, it's an easy connection from that perspective.

Yeah, that's a great point. You've come become somewhat of an expert supply chain through the years. And what do you see happening in cotton and T shirts and apparel now that post Covid. What are you seeing as far as the supply chain recovering? And what do you see as our biggest challenges in a post Covid world?

Yeah, I think that, you know, obviously the biggest challenge is, is time and, and, and Cost of transit. Right. And. And time and production, more than time and transit. That at the time and transit hasn't changed so much. It's come back to normal, I suppose you could say. But time is money, you know, just like we see anywhere. If somebody's struggling with labor, the same factories, the same farms, regardless of where they are, they have the same struggles. Yeah. I think it's important to understand that and really work closely with your vendors, you know, regardless of what side you're on. Because anytime you have that relationship and, and you can, you know, cut some time, I think, out of that schedule, it's really. It's really impactful. And yeah, I think there's a different. There's a different approach to what the value of time is now post, you know, post pandemic. So.

Both in a good and bad way. Both in a good way. Yeah, I think appreciate it more. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's going to be the biggest challenge, I think, coming out of this. Yeah. We're still seeing it. Right. I mean, still, it's still wonky, to use a word that means nothing, I suppose. Right.

Yeah. Are you reshoring or sourcing in other parts of the world now compared to pre Covid?

No, we haven't really changed that a whole lot. We try to, you know, always have redundancy. There can always be issues with a factory. We have a really close relationship with our factories and our supply chain, which is very helpful because you kind of see what's coming around the corner. If we could reshore in North America or, you know, the US even, we'd be all for it. But you know, just like sustainability, it kind of comes down to this balance between, you know, people, planet, profit. Right. It's. It's comes down to, you know, conditions in one place and what they can offer us from an environmentally friendly perspective and what that cost is to the, you know, to the factory and to the. To the consumer.

Yeah. And we mentioned that Castle felt such a cool brand. And what brands do you love and follow? Like who inspires you? And you've been on this journey a while and who. Who inspires you?

Yeah, I. I love brands that maybe appear new, maybe they've been around, but they have this uncanny ability to fill a niche. Right. I love brands like that. And they usually. They usually do it in a way. It's fascinating to me when somebody does it in a way that's really simple. Right. So I guess if brands came to mind, I'd look at VUORI Allbirds on Cloud. They're really doing nothing different than a lot of other companies out there, but they've kept it very simple.

Yeah.

You know, or Melon Headwear. Right. These guys have really bridged. Bridge gaps, and they're building massive, you know, brands with. With, you know, huge distribution and a great. And a great customer base. So I love. I love seeing that, and it makes me excited, you know, for them and for the consumer, because it's a good product. Yeah.

Fiori is one of those brands that just blew up, it feels like. But they probably have been at it longer than we realize.

Yeah. Yeah. But they found that. They found that spot, that sweet spot.

Yeah. What's your favorite product in the Castle Felt line?

I like the long sleeve tea the best. That's my favorite.

Okay.

Yeah. It has a little bit, you know, T shirts. Super hard to make. It's super hard to fit. Right. Everybody's really particular about it, but they all kind of look the same. So I like what we did with our. Our long sleeve, just with a little, you know, shoulder detail and. And some of the little extras that, you know, make it a little bit different. Yeah.

That's cool. What. We'll link to that. What's a recent. I always like to ask this question because I'm encouraged by the community to do so. What's a recent article or book or movie or podcast episode? This really impacted you recently.

You know, this is kind of funny.

I.

I haven't read a lot lately. I've been reading a lot of industry things, but I came across my great grandfather's notes. He was a big kind of note taker and writer. And, you know, I just. It was kind of funny. And it's from 1923, this one, and I thought the quote was appropriate. It was Edwin Markham, and I'm going to read it because I know I wouldn't remember it. It's.

That's great.

There's a destiny that. A destiny that makes us brothers. None goes his way alone. All that we send into the lives of others comes back into our own. So I'm still kind of pondering on that, and I think it's appropriate kind of for sustainability. Right. It's.

Yeah.

You have to put the work in. It's not easy, it's laborious, but it comes back in. In, you know, in ways you wouldn't expect. And that's kind of our approach to Castle Fell. But it's really fun reading that stuff because it's so. It's so relevant. Right. And it's really from 1923. Yeah.

That's great. What a great treasure to find. Where was he from?

Yeah. Pardon me?

Where was he from?

He was from Indiana.

Okay. Yeah. So what do you do? What do you enjoy doing when you're not working? You're in beautiful Colorado? I don't think we stated that out at the beginning. So what do you enjoy doing?

I'm gonna. I. I'm an outdoor guy, so if I'm. I'm skiing, hiking. Skiing is my passion. Golf's probably my other passion. But skiing probably wins if I'm either. Either at the resort or just skinning up and doing my thing. It's. It's really what I like, what I like to do and, and camping and, you know, whatever it may be, that's. That connection to the outdoors is really. It's really healthy. And I think it's probably part of the reason I'm in the sustainability space. Right. Is I think that's really important.

Makes perfect sense. Jerry, thanks for spending your time with us today and letting us know a little bit more about the Castle Fell brand. We'll link to some articles I've got. There's also a great article out on the SNS blog that will link to as well. But I'm so glad to meet you and learn about your story and learn about your amazing brand.

Yeah, but pleasure. I appreciate you and thank you for all the good questions.

You bet. Hang on one second, buddy.