Episode 270: How Promo Pros Get Unstuck with Debbie Grishman

Deb, so glad to have you here.

So good to be here. Thank you for having me.

You bet. I just mentioned to you that we wrapped up our first ever CEO Summit at Toronto in Toronto.

Yes.

And one of the main takeaways was there seemed to be a general consensus among CEOs that in order for you to grow from a certain level to another, you need something in your life like either coach or an advisory board or someone that helps you look from the outside in. And that's why we're visiting here today, because your mission and your role role is, is to be exactly that. So tell us a little bit about it. What, what's your mission? How do you help entrepreneurs?

Absolutely. So it sounds like it's something I definitely will try and get myself invited to next year.

Yeah, exactly.

But I founded the Cowden Collaborative to partner with CEOs founders and now expanding into executive teams to help them accelerate growth by getting really clear on their priorities, removing hurdles and getting things done. So there's lots of ways to say that, but it's creating a little bit of clarity from chaos and helping people have an outside point of view to help them achieve their goals.

We're here today because we met, because of your work with 12NYC, who is one of the most respected brands in agencies and merch. And so because of that work, you and I met and that's why we're sitting here so that we can talk a little bit more about that. I mean, when some of the best brands in the world need help articulating their vision or their mission or whatever it is. Give us an example of what you kind of do with 12 or the kind of work that you. That you've done with 12.

Absolutely. So 12 is a great example of the fact that I work with companies in all industries and really all sizes. My work has been more focused on some of the smaller, I would call them, scale ups and startups. So whether they're looking to raise, whether they're post raise, I also lately have been working with a lot of solopreneurs, so really small guys because they need just as much help. My main goal, and I think we've talked about this, is to be another grownup at the table. Not to say current exec teams aren't. But I really and truly believe in the humaning aspect of all of our work, that we all need someone who is not our partner, who is not our shareholder, who is not our spouse, boyfriend, mother, who at the end of the day or during the day we can talk to about things that are weighing on us. And I believe in the, like the fundamental power of having an outside point of view and somebody who is not again, your spouse, your partner, someone who works for you. And so I fell into this, you know, a little bit by accident. But my work with 12 was one of those representations. My original work after I left corporate America was doing just that. Working with founders who had success, had a clear path, but there was a bunch of things that were getting stuck and I was another person to help give them the room to get unstuck.

Can you give us an example of how you've helped folks get unstuck?

Sure. Well, so we talked about 12 NYC a little bit. They're an amazing, amazing player and leader in your space and how we met. So I'm externally grateful. They, you know, design experiences and merchandise for the world's most compelling brands. And we know that they had a huge success and their team, like many of my other clients, the same thing that gave them rocket ship success, you know, they had laid foundations of their work was also what was going to end up getting them a little bit stuck in terms of it was time to take a minute out from being in the business and to focus on the business. And it's quite simply taking a minute to pause and to rethink. Are you clear on your strategy? Is that clear to everyone who's working on your team? And so a lot of the things that I do, and I can't tell you how often I find that whether or not I'm working with a client who's a general contractor, whether they're an interior designer, small subscription box company or an agency like 12. The concept is quite simple. Are you clear on your purpose and your priorities? And I've created a method to talk through those things. And do you have the processes and the people you need to deliver? And so there's sort of these four tenants and we get deep depending on where the need is, but to make sure that we all have the time to kind of take a step out of our everyday, you know, if we were a pizza, getting a day off of making pizzas to think about what is the strategy, who are we trying to be and what's standing in our way. So I've done that with a bunch of different companies and I learn from each of them and it's a lot of fun.

Do you feel like folks reach out to you when they've hit some kind of plateau? Either plateau actual and growth in gross sales? Maybe they hit like a 10 million plateau or a 2 million plateau. And is that typically when they reach out?

Yeah, it happens. You know, again, not a perfect data science, but in two ways. One, they've hit some type of plateau. They realize that they want to hit a huge mark in revenues, maybe they want to expand globally. That was one example. And then sometimes it's also a transition point a partner has left. They realize that they don't have the team that they need. And so a lot of times I come in when there's a change in leadership, as was the case with many. One of my clients, you know, took on a partner for the first time, and we had been talking on the sidelines of a sports game about, you know, the importance of getting that partnership right. Like it is a marriage in many ways. And again, this humaning side of the business, which maybe it's the old camp counselor in me, you know, having been at amex for so long and spending so much time with the hearts and minds of my team and growing up in brand, I truly believe you can't get that right without the people being on board. So a lot of times it happens when there's a transition within the leadership team or there's a huge milestone they need to hit.

Can we break down the discovery a little bit? So let's say I'm a CEO of a $10 million business, and I'm stuck on many different issues. There's so many things I want to do. I'm so busy working in the business. As we talked about. What's one of the first things you do when you and I meet?

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing I do is, and it's uncharacteristic of my normal personality, is stop talking and listen. So I want to get really clear. And it's waves between personal and professional. You. What can I learn about where you are personally and professionally? And I get really smart, and we just listen, and it's usually an hour. Sometimes it's more than that. Just to say, why are we here? Why did you reach out? What does success look like? What's keeping you up at night? All the questions that we know that laying on a couch somewhere we'd love to talk about, but I just get really quiet. And we listen and we talk, and sometimes things are obvious and sometimes you uncover something. So the first thing I do is get really clear about what's going on with you, and then we repeat it back. Hearing your own words sometimes and understanding the key insights from an outside point of view, and we'll come back to that is sometimes really eye opening or sometimes it's really affirming. Yes, these are exactly the things I thought. And you get it. And having done this a bunch of times, it helps to have someone who gets it. So we listen, we learn, we get then really clear on what I heard. I'll tell you back to you, Bobbi, this is what I heard. These are what I think we need to focus on. And sometimes it takes a little bit time in the kitchen for us to, to get clear on that. We get clear on your purpose and priorities in that work. I do stakeholder interviews. Sometimes the best thing for me to do is talk to your team, a partner, clients and customers. Where I get access is so huge to make sure that we don't have blind spots, which we all do. And then we get really busy on what do we need to do to get to deliver on those priorities. And I believe it stems in either the processes. Is it a procedure? Is it a lot of times you need to rebrand a website or is it people? Do I need a chief human resource officer? Do I need a cto? Because here I am in the promotional products business, but I now need to have the best tech experience. So we get really clear on that.

I like how you clarified into like four main categories, the purpose, priorities, processes and people. What do you think most leaders or most folks that engage with you in this are struggling with now? Is that too.

Yeah. No, it's not. And it's. I really believe that what they're mostly struggling with is giving themselves the time to focus on these things because we are so busy again in the kitchen making the pizzas that we just don't. None of us have the time. Right. We talk about making time for self care. All those things are important. This is that. And certain people in the very early stages or when they've recently been acquired or taken on money, they actually, they don't feel they have the time or that it's an indulgence. And so that's the number one thing. Once I said, you know, like my peloton instructor, you've done the work, you clicked in, you're here. Step one. Once you've engaged with me and hopefully we're working together, that's. That's a big piece right there. You are investing in yourself. And then from there I think sometimes it is really hard, I believe sometimes on the people and procedure side. And I mention that because it's not all that sexy sometimes to say, you know, what we need is a new CRM, you know, what we really need to think about is a new, you know, a new website. And those are the vitamins and building blocks. And I think sometimes people are surprised and struggle with the fact that I am, you know, starting to say, look like some of these things are basic and the website that you had spent a while on is actually not, is not really the right way and the way in which you think you present in market isn't right. So I think sometimes people struggle with that and they do take it personally. Generally I'm working with the founder or CEO, right. And we all take it personally. So it's, it's, you know, I'm not. Bobby, what you built isn't in any way bad, right? How can we make it better? Or you're exactly where you need to be because you just hit 20 million and the business and the leader that you were at 2 million is no longer the right thing. So I think we all struggle, struggle with that, if that makes sense.

Yes, it makes total sense. That was stressed over and over by this 20 plus CEOs in the room that could have been running 50 million, they might have been running 20 million. But that was stressed over and over is that the CEO themselves has to go through their own evolution. And often that's like a leap forward, not just a gradual growth. I also like how you said that this is somewhat analogous to self care because then what that does is make me stop and go, oh, my house is not a mess. Like it's just, is just something I absolutely have to do for the preservation of my own sanity, for the preservation of business and everything else. And I'm sure it's painful. Are there, are there common, are there common obstacles leaders face when they come to you at first? Are there traits? Is it uncertainty? Is it bandwidth? Is it just confusion?

So yes, there's a lot of different.

All the above.

Well, so it obviously depends on, you know, what flavor, you know, leader or do we have someone who wants to lead this company for the next 20 years? A lot of times I've run into a leader who's come at a point where they're like, I'm no longer the person who should be sitting in the CEO chair. And let's talk about that. I would say one of the main common things though, and it gets back to this outside point of view, is a lot of these people have grown things with their own two hands, laid foundations, and they've not, I've always been the top of the pyramid and so they've never gone through the type of leadership development that, that I had the, you know, both the pain and the beauty of doing at Amex where there was always someone more senior to me. I always had a development plan. I was always being told to stand up a little straighter or, you know, and sometimes it's hard when you've always been at the top to, to take feedback. And I think that that's where I flip it and say, that's why I'm here. Right. That's why it's not great to bring me on full time. Even though hopefully we, you know, we jive and we want to. Because there is a real benefit to having an outside, outside point of view. And I think the things people struggle with sometimes is. Is being open to it. And we think we're going to be open to it sometimes. And some people are, but it is really hard to say, larry, I'm gonna stop and listen. So I think that that's a big piece of the. Both the value and the part that they struggle with. And I'm. I'm here for it. I have thick skin and a big girl. And sometimes I'm going to say things that maybe you don't agree with, and that's great. But that to me is the value too. A lot of times our employees become yes people or they're too afraid to challenge a really talented leader. So I hope, I hope to make that a bit easier for them. It's not easy for anybody, though, to your point.

In this business, particularly a salesperson will begin in this business as a solo entrepreneur. Then they'll grow. They'll get a small team of maybe three people, Then they'll grow, they'll keep growing. But then there seems to be this gap or this blockage, if you will, in their growth when they have to go face when they're faced with hiring middle management or upper management to help them grow.

That's right.

And so organizational design is one of the many strategies you work with. And, and I love the architecture and science behind that because I think it sort of alleviates the leadership mind. If I look back on my own career and I look at leading a business, I think one of the major mistakes I made was not bringing in more management structure at a certain inflection point in the business. Is there a common challenge you see with organizational design when it comes from entrepreneurs scaling from 0 to 3, 3 to 10, 10 to 50?

So I think one of those things that ties back to, like, what are the priorities is again, I'm a company, and I think all I need is designers and artists. But we realize that our end needs a really slick tech platform. Right. We, I always say, like, we live in this uber world where we want the Apple world, where the, the things we expect as customers are the same thing we expect when we're interacting in the business world. And so we sometimes don't have the right, right, the right cooks right in the kitchen to use that example again. So I think that it is a hard thing to do, especially when you have a wonderful trait of being a loyal leader and you've had, you know, Meredith from day one, always leading PR and always leading marketing. It's hard sometimes to say, you know what, like, you were right for the last five years, but now we need someone who has had experience in a global org. We have someone who knows how to keep their finger on the pulse of, you know, rapid growth. So I think sometimes that becomes a little bit tricky. And then also it's figuring out what is the right role because most of the time, at least the level of, of people I'm working with, we're limited by investment. I'm not going to come in and start to suggest you need to hire a cto. You need to hire, and I believe sometimes we bring in consultants and things at the right time. But there is this balance of what do we need, what can we afford? And most important to me is how will this authentically fit in with the culture. I don't want to just bring in and, you know, I hate to say a suit or whatever it may be, that's not going to sit well with where the organization authentically is. So those are the three things that we always try and keep in mind. But I really believe that the people we have helping us, no matter what role they in, are the heart and soul of what we do. And so a lot of my work isn't just what do you need to have an effective marketing strategy, is who do you need to help you lead that piece?

Yeah. What I really appreciate about your expertise and what you do is that you just mentioned technology. Now, the fact that we're a technology company aside.

Yeah.

80% of B2B buyers expect some form of digital interaction and transaction moving forward. Even B2B buyers in this day and age. And in two years, 75% of the workforce will be Gen Z or millennials. And Gen Alpha is entering the workforce at the end of this decade. So what I love about your reflection with a business owner is that you're looking at everything. It might be processes, it might be the Owner's thinking this. The owner's thinking, well, I just think we need this. But you think actually you might need a tech infusion. You might need something else. So I do love that part about what you do. Why. Why do you think we struggle so much? We have great teams. Let's say we have great teams, great processes, solid experience. I know it's a general question, but.

Yeah.

Why is it so hard for us sometimes to identify the core problem? Like you said, we're working in the business. Is it also because we feel like the business is so messy we can't quite identify what that is?

You mean. So then again, like, how you can't identify what. What the. The big.

What the key problem is? Yeah. What the.

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes too, like, there isn't necessarily a problem when I come in. Right. I mean, there's, I believe, untapped. To be really sunny about it. It could be untapped opportunity. You're doing a great job. It's a. It's a yes and. And not a no. But. But I think sometimes one, we. We. We get in our comfort zone, and this has always worked. And whether it's loyalty towards a person or a prior investment in a process, we feel financially constrained to something. We've made promises to clients, whatever it may be. There are things that sometimes it's a path of least resistance thing. And I think also it's like opening our eyes and paying attention or seeing something from another point of view. And I think that that sometimes is hard. And again, we all are, you know, however tenured we are. When you don't know about, let's pick on technology again. Right. When I grew up the way I did, and I don't know enough about TikTok or how it works, and then so I don't really see how it relates to my business. It's easy just to ignore it. Right. And so I think sometimes when we don't know and fully understand something now, you compound it with not having the time. I'm not sitting around taking TikTok, you know, like lectures. So then those things become, I think, really, really hard and another really wonderful place to bring in someone. Even it's a coach, if it's an executive advisor. You talked a little bit about the difference between what I do in advisory boards, and we can talk about that. Bringing in an outside point of view, even if you're not going to action, it just makes you so much, so much better. And then it's giving yourself the time. The other hurdle I Have I have a lot of clients who I say this is how I work. This is what we're going to do. We're going to meet twice a month and inevitably something customer facing or client facing comes up and I get pushed. Which is fine because they don't have an hour to do the work. But I'm pretty strict again using the self care and saying you got to get right, get it back on. And we're always grateful for having spent time together but sometimes sure like you know, you got to take care of what's. What's best. So I think it's really combined with blind spots and time.

I like the sort of the yoga instructor, peloton instructor. It's not to the idea of that because. Right. The fitness is the thing we always need. Let's talk a little bit about the industry you have done work with other clients. What's fascinates me about your work with 12 is that you have already had this amazing experience through Amex and through consulting with your other clients. Then you come into this strange industry called the Brand Emerge industry. What was your perspective about it before you came in and then what was it afterwards?

Yeah. So I have to say, as you know from my conversations, I think it is the heart and soul of so many of the. I say that like the brands of our lives. And it really opened my eyes to like this opportunity you guys have of like the lip gloss in my bag and the candle on my counter and the shoebox that my kids have from Nike that they, they're keeping because it's their favorite. Like I, I assign emotional attachment to inanimate objects and so this industry is like meant for me.

Right.

Um, I really think that what I learned through 12 and their commitment to like making brands stand out, which is what I in some ways hope to do that the industry you guys are in really has such an amazing opportunity. We talk about the importance of digital, but in the old school analog things I can hold and touch and again keep next to my bed or wear. I was so surprised at how exciting it was, how huge the opportunity is, how much the biggest brands are spending and need to spend and the time and care it takes to make a tag. Right. To focus on sustainability, sustainable packaging and really like the art and care that goes into this industry has been amazing.

Yeah, we both got a glimpse of that obviously you more intimately but we both have got a glimpse of that through 12's process. And that's one of the things in the industry that I'm learning is that Many in this business underappreciate the process they go through on behalf of their clients. And so that's a very critical part of bringing forward to, in your marketing and in your communication and everything else.

Yeah, and I'll add on to that too. What I wanted to talk about but too was the dot connecting. I did on the work with 12 and other clients that I have. Again, growing up at Amex, I had the privilege of running events teams and did a lot of client gifting and entertainment. We ran trade shows and the partners that we had were, some of them were probably a little more at the time, run of the mill. Right. I need a water bottle. Let's put a logo on it. But then we realized that to this other idea, like all brands wanted to have impact and to look different. Right. We talk about the sea of sameness when we scroll our feed on social. How do we break through? It's the same thing on a trade show floor. It's the same thing with a client gifting. What are we going to. What are. What's the gift going to be? And the way in which we can hold and touch things in our hand. That was so huge at amex and I thought that that was such an interesting piece. That's the client side, but also the employee side. And again, having been a leader of teams and I'm still like, very involved in that kind of stuff. You see on LinkedIn, someone's like, it's official, like day one at Google and they're holding up the T shirt, right? And we have the. And I love these emotional connections that we have to the humans because they're going to be the, you know, the heart and soul of your brand. So I have really, like, you know, my eyes wide open about the work that happens in this industry. I love the work that you do because they're connected to every single brand in our life, whether it's bank of America or Nike, has to have amazing. You know, whether you call it merchandise, that's another thing I learned. Don't call it swag. Whether it's merch, it's promotional products, you know, depending on who I'm talking to, I have. They're like, oh, so swag? I'm like, well, yes, but not really so much more. Every brand of our life has this, right? So, you know, again, I obsess about a lip gloss case and the way it feels in my hand. Other people want to keep a shoebox, so I, I just, I have a nerd heart for it, as you know,

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I do know that. And I think the world, the more we talked about this at the CEO Summit, is how much more technical and digital the world's going to become in terms of AI and things, the more important these tactile experiences will become in branding.

I agree. I, I do agree, Deb.

I'm going to move on to about you because it's a fun part for me to unpack. Before we do. Was there anything we didn't cover? We can edit this part out. Was there anything we didn't cover that I can ask you about? Set it up with a question.

Yeah, I mean, I think we really talked about the outside opinion. I just had some notes. We talked about the idea. Right. That people won't agree with me. I think the only other thing that we can talk about, we talk about it with me too, is really giving yourself the time to be clear about what you want for your personal. Right. Our lives are so.

Oh, let's do that.

Okay. Right. Okay. And that, that's another reason to bring someone in.

So let me ask that.

Yeah.

One of the challenges that I think we have might not be with the organization itself. Maybe it's not with the business really per se, maybe it's not with the leadership, it's not with our processes, it's not with our tech. The problem is, is like me, I need it. I need a personal advisor. And this was brought up in the CEO Summit that, that, that sometimes we don't need just an organizational guru to help us through things, but we might need more personal counseling from a business perspective. Is that, is that a big, is that another critical need you see?

Absolutely. And it's really the cornerstone of what I would love, I love the most about what I do.

Yeah.

Our lives. And I think in us in a post Covid world. Right. Like we're both doing this, you know, not from our offices in the big city. Right. We're. Our lives are so enmeshed and what we get up and do every day is such a huge piece of who we are. Certainly not everything, but you need to be clear with yourself about what you want for yourself. And then as it relates to business, because it's not back in the day anymore where we're going to be lawyers, because we were always lawyers. We have such control, especially with Gen Z and Millennials, we want to be passionate about what we do. And so the time that we can invest in stepping back, whether you're the CEO of a hundred million dollar company that you built with your Two or whether you're stepping in to lead a business, it has to align with what you want for yourself, with how you feel about either the mission of the business or the role that you have within it. And so I think that it's such. I'm so glad to hear that these summits, they're talking about it and that it's, it's part of it because I think it makes us healthier, more effective, more productive business people.

I talk with a lot of CEOs and a lot of owners intimately and a lot of off. My conversations often sound like this. You know, I need to work on an exit. I need to figure out an exit strategy for my business or I'm really struggling right now. I'm struggling to be motivated. I'm struggling to figure this out. So I can really appreciate how this doesn't have to be specifically about the organization, it just has to be about you.

That's really important.

Let's discover a little bit about Deb. What's on your priority list today?

Oh, gosh. Well, I told you that I prioritize self care, which is a little bit hard. I have really been trying as I'm maturing in years, to prioritize time to move my body, but again, for the mental aspect and that. So that was a big thing today. I have a bunch of different deadlines for clients that I'm trying to get done. I love to have. I always try and have a Friday wrap up, at least on the big stream. So part of it's for my own brain to download, but just to reinforce and to remind my clients and partners what we've been, what was accomplished in the week. So I try and touch base with everyone on a Friday. Doesn't always happen. Yeah, doesn't always happen. But it was probably an old habit that I picked up along the way at amex as teams got bigger. Just checking in with people, just making sure they felt good or knew that I had an open door on Fridays. And the other thing that's really exciting is moving forward some, some big pieces. I have a client who is getting ready to either accept a government grant or find out if they have one. And so we've been really trying to figure out a plan to get a nice little influx of capital. So those are happy, fun days.

Yeah.

And. Yeah. And then there will be a baseball and a lacrosse game at the end of my.

Who's your biggest influence in business? Who do you admire and why?

Oh, that is. It's a really, really tough one. I have Both the, like, the big pie in the sky answer that. I had the opportunity of hearing Richard Bramson speak, like, years ago, and I remember him talking about the decision to launch an airline when he was so successful in music. And obviously he is, you know, a goat and he's a unicorn. But people were so critical of him and were like, what are you doing? You don't have airline experience. You have this other business. They're not connected. And he was like, look, I fly a lot and I think I can do a better job. And it really resonated with me in two ways, because one, people tend towards giving you feedback and critical. Why do you want to leave your job and start your own business? Why would you want to do this? And having the thick enough skin to accept that, again, matched with his confidence would be great. But to also realize that the inspiration of how you want to do things, it's not necessarily, I need to invent the next iPhone. It's. There's something I love, a brand or product I feel passionate about. I'm just going to do it better. And so I always think about his insight. You're tapping into an existing audience. People need to fly on airplanes, but let's just do it better. And I'm such a customer, voice of customer, focused person. So that always sticks to me. And I love seeing what he's up to. And then I had the opportunity of working with an amazing woman named Christina Geist, who you've probably heard me talk about. She's the founder of Boombox Gifts, which I won't stop talking about if you ask me any more questions. But Christina would probably be very embarrassed I'm mentioning her, but she started a business called Trugist with her brand partner at Johnson and Johnson at the time, amazing guy named Todd Geist. And with every dollar she earned from her brand firm, she launched Boombox Gift because she felt passionately that this product needed to exist. And she is so smart and so down to earth and runs things in the way that is authentic to her and that is supportive of every person on the team. And. And she's just. She's just so such a kind, smart leader. And so I always think about a little bit of what would Christina do? And then married with, you know, the capital and the resources of Richard. You know, I feel like those are two.

That's a good match. Where do you go to get refueled or inspired or maybe share a latest book, podcast, or movie? Doesn't have to be business that really has inspired the way you Think or impacted.

So I've, I've always been a fan of how I built this. I know that a lot of people love that podcast and we did work with them at amex, so I still love to listen in on that. My, my favorite I Almost like Dessert podcast.

Yeah.

Is smart. Smartless. I know it's not a unique opinion. I love it.

Yeah.

I just like. And I, I know I'm not unique. I'm like, I definitely think that, like, I could be their fourth best friend. Like, you know, I have so much fun together. They beat up on each other. I just love it. So those things are really fun. And I've actually been working to make time for podcasts now that I'm not commuting into the city as often. Yeah. So that's been like. Because I love to blast music.

Yeah. You and I both love smart list. I think it's a brilliant. Honestly think it's so much fun. But also it's a very interesting insight into the working mechanisms of their industry.

Absolutely.

It's like an industry podcast, but they're entertainers.

That's right. And it's such a simple format. And I know it started when no one was connected on Covid, but I really. They had Jon Favreau the other day and talking about like, you know, his George Lucas in mind of the tech and how everyone's worked hard together because we sometimes think of actors of just having, you know, the, the fluffiest life. These are hard working people.

Yeah, very hard.

And I love it. It's. It's like, again, I think of it as a dessert. It's not, you know, it's not npr, but I certainly love it.

Yeah, you mentioned something too. I think that's really, really important. And this has come up more and more in the first chapter of. Of Shoe Dog, the Nike book. What I picked up on was someone asking themselves the question, as an entrepreneur, hey, maybe fun should be an important requirement for me running a business. Whereas I was sort of raised to think that work was work. Right. Work was work. And it was sort of a negative connotation. And I've read this multiple times from many entrepreneurs and many entrepreneurial stor. Is that maybe fun should be an important part of the equation.

Oh, I mean, I definitely. I mean, like I was, you know, the. I believe it so, so deeply. Again, I was always kind of a clown or a goofball and I wanted to make sure I was doing something that was authentic to me. And we kind of grew up and said, find something. You Love. Right. And then it's not really work. But I do believe in tying back to this other thing. Like, we spend a lot of our hours working, and it should be fun. Like, no, Sunday scary is even though you might be tired. And I think that that's a really important piece and it ties back to what we've been saying. The industry you work in certainly adds fun to my life. Like, again, I go to Walgreens and I have a million things to do, and I'm like, I'm gonna hit the lip gloss aisle and buy myself a little $10 surprise, right? So, like, little products can make such a difference, but also, you know, enjoying what we love. And that is a little bit of self care. Right. Marrying that with the ability to have to, you know, compensate yourself and to add value, I think is that other piece that the work that we get to do now. And I hope you feel. And I think you feel that I think in meeting with you, like being a true partner to someone or at a time of need for a founder or team, it feels really right for me because I can be a little bit of my inner goof. But I also feel like I'm adding value, so love it.

It's a great way to end. On this note. And, Deb, I appreciate you so much. Ever since we first started talking, I was like, I've got to get to know Deb better.

So I felt the same. So I'm. Thank you so much for. I mean, your. Your guests, your topics are so interesting. So thank you. It is a truly an honor to get to spend some time with you.

Thank you. Hopefully, it won't be the last. Deb. And thanks for sharing your insight with us here today.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

You bet.