Episode 283: Industry Trends Driving Innovation Now with Bill Petrie and Kirby Hasseman

It is really rare to have these two join someone else's show to give an overview of trends that are happening in the industry. So welcome Kirby and Bill, thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Absolutely. This is going to be fun.

We're talking kind of two main trend topics because, because we, all of us in the room, love content that'll be on our docket today. But first we're going to talk about, talk about overarching industry trends. And I know you guys really unpack this on your podcast, but there's a lot of interesting numbers out there about the industry and demographics and what's going on. PPAI reports that small distributors, less than 2.5 million in annual sales, comprise nearly 50% of the industry. The 25, $26 billion industry, whatever the reported numbers are. And then ASI is reporting the first company to hit a billion as a distributor. First company to hit a billion for Imprint this year. It's worth mentioning that ASI lists small distributors as under 250k in revenue, medium size as 250k to 1 million and large distributors 1 million plus. That was on their latest State of the Industry report. And so my question to you is that we're talking about the biggest trends that sort of driving innovation right now. Have the demographics changed in the industry and if so, how is that impacting folks running a business moving forward? Bill, let's start with you.

You sent these questions in all fairness and I didn't look at them.

So of course I didn't expect you to.

I don't even know how many on there. So from a distributor perspective, I think you know, a lot of these lists, the site, what you, what's interesting about what you said there, Bobby, was the sizing disparity what PPAI considers small, medium, large, and what ASI considers those same demographics. You know, it's like know the difference between a super sized meal at McDonald's and a Super sized meal at Burger King. Everybody has their own metrics. So I don't think those type of things matter a hell of a lot when it comes to innovation. I think historically you see smaller companies are more agile, they're more nimble and because they have to break through the noise created by the people who have larger budgets, they tend to be more forward thinking and more innovative. And I think we need to remember as an industry, as we see the proliferation of lists that come out bigger doesn't always, always mean better. Better means better. And I think, I think we get so hung up on these ranked lists. I know Kirby's gonna completely disagree with me. But, you know, I, I do think, I, I do think that what drives innovation is people wanting to be better, people needing to get noticed, people needing to get their message out there. Not necessarily size for the sake of size sake.

Yeah. Kirby, somewhere between PPAI is 2.5 million and ASI's top 40, which starts at, we know, close to a billion and comes down to about 37 million. At the bottom is this huge swath of distributors from 2.5 million to the 37 million number. What are your thoughts as a distributor who sits in that category?

Yeah, I mean, I think in this way I'd push back a little bit on what Bill said in the sense that I think size does matter when it comes to innovation. It's one of those things that it matters and it doesn't. Right. Because I think Bill's point about being smaller does give you some advantages and that's totally true. But I would say that cash is helpful when it comes to innovation. If we're just being honest. Right. Like there are, there are people in this industry who I would love to hire and I think they'd help me innovate, but I can't afford to do it because I'm a smaller distributor. So I would say that some of those larger folks have the, just, just the, the bandwidth. They have the ability to innovate, like on technology. Right. Like, whereas I am leaning on my partners like Common SKU and things like that to help build, ensure that we're on the cutting edge of things. Larger distributors, larger suppliers have the ability to invest in that, to do that themselves. So a, I think it does matter. But on the other side, one of the things I love about the industry is once it gets down to the brass tax, it's people still buy from people they like, know and trust. And in so many ways, whether it's the halos of the world, the pro formas of the world, or the hospital marketings of the world, ultimately I am going to be sitting across the desk one on one from a human. And in that moment it doesn't matter. So does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because even in those large distributorships, you have these small units of teams that are actually operating the same way a small distributor does in many sense.

Can I push back on Kirby's real quick? You know, you're right that larger companies have the ability to invest in those things. It's the fact that a lot of times they don't. A lot of times they just sit on a pile of money because they're. They're worried about what the future holds, or they want to report specific earnings numbers to people who have invested and things like that. So just because someone has the ability doesn't mean that they are. So while you're technically correct, you're wholly wrong.

I'm used to that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

In the essence of time, we're going

to move on, Kirby. Otherwise, I'd love for you to volley that back.

All right, Industry demographics by diversity. What's the most positive thing you're seeing change in the industry? Kirby, let's start with you.

Yeah.

I honestly, I have said for years that I think that our industry really models a really large, small town. It's really big. But, man, I have seen for a long time, you know, I'm from a small town in Coshocton. It is incredibly white.

Right.

Like, my. My hometown is incredibly white. And I have been surprised for years at the level of consistency within our industry with that exact same sort of consistency. I have seen progress in that. Not where, by any stretch, where I think as an industry, we want to be, but I think we are starting to value different gender, different people of color, and all that sort of thing, and I think that's a really good thing. And as a. Just as a quick anecdote, Bobby, I know you are a big reader, and I think you'll appreciate this. I just finished a book called the Anatomy of a Breakthrough, and one of the big points that the author made was the injection of diversity of thought. And this was specifically about just diversity of thought into a creative project. They actually did studies across decades, and the big thing they actually studied was the show Doctor who.

Right.

Show Doctor who across decades. Right. And they said that they figured that teams that had worked together for a long time would create the best work, but they sort of definitively debunked that is that when they introduced different people, different thoughts, different generations, the episodes became more creative, more interesting. And I think that that is the piece that comes to mind when I think of diversity right now is I think we focus so much on color or lifestyle or that sort of thing.

It.

If you can introduce diversity of thought, creative projects get better.

It's about perspective. Bill.

Yeah. I love what you said there about diversity of thought, Kirby. I think with diversity or an industry that's historically slow to change, and I think that's reflected in diversity initiatives and DEI in general. You know, I've said it before on Kirby and I's podcast. I think DEI is Really suffering from a branding problem. Diversity means a hundred different things to a hundred different people. Equity means and again, 100 different things to 100 different people. And so people tend to focus on those two and debate what that means and how I'm disenfranchised. And that's not fair in this. If we focused on inclusion, that's a really Teflon argument. It's a very difficult one for anybody to say, I don't want to be inclusive. If we would focus as an industry on inclusive, being inclusive. And I think it starts at ppai. It starts at larger firms that are hiring people at large rates. That's where this starts. It's. It's marketing to people to join our industry. That's PPA and asi. And it's large companies being intentional, as Kirby would probably say, intentional about. Let's make sure we do have diverse thought. Whatever the background is diverse thought because diverse backgrounds do lead to diverse thought because they're different experiences that they bring to the table.

Supplier demographics, how is that? How has that changed? As you have both been in this industry a while, are we seeing more innovation by upcoming suppliers? Are we seeing larger suppliers take on the innovation role? Or is the consolidation impacting the industry's innovation as we move forward? Bill, what are your thoughts?

I'm not sure we're seeing a lot of innovation from suppliers other than the continued trend toward packaging and experiences. I think we're still seeing that, but that's been happening for the last 8, 10 years thanks to Jason Lucas and our newly retired friend Mike Simczak from Org Audio. They really brought that to the table. A lot of people have adopted that. I think, again, what's challenging is it's hard for new suppliers to bring something new to the industry. It's hard for them to enter the industry in an industry that is resistant to change. Most people would rather dance with the devil they know than possibly partner with an angel they don't. And so that is the biggest challenge, is getting people's attention that, hey, this is new and different. It's not just a pen with a blinky light this year.

Karby.

Yeah, I agree on this one with Bill. I don't think we're seeing a ton of innovation across the industry. And that's not a shot. I think part of that is just the sort of hangover effect of COVID For a couple years there, it didn't make any sense from a financial perspective to invest in innovation. Man, they were just trying to get pens off the boats.

Right.

So to their defense, where I do see innovation from my perspective is much more actually on the smaller distributor side. But the smaller suppliers, excuse me, smaller suppliers who are very narrow in their product focus. And what I mean by that is they're not trying to be everything to everybody because it's really hard to compete in a big world. Those folks who have narrow product folks focus and then like, figure out ways to innovate in delivery and stand out in that way. That's. And those are the ones that stand out to me as a distributor because I'm like, okay, I can go to market in a totally different way and deliver. That's. That's where I see some innovation happening.

Kirby, while we're with you and let's talk again about distributor changes, particularly changes in services, how they've changed pre. Covid. During COVID post Covid. And what's remained permanent moving forward. What kind of changes as a distributor? What kind of changes have you seen in your own business and services?

Yeah, I think we've talked about this a little bit, but I think I'm probably a little bit more on this than many distributors as we, you know, we have. You hear the term agency, a model as a distributor. I mean, we have in house video production, we have digital marketing services, we invested in print. And to me, that's where those services lie, is that you can become a.

A.

You know, there's.

It's.

It goes back and forth. You know, there's a. You can become all things to many of your larger clients that you can print it in house, you can do digital marketing. You can do that. I think that does a couple things. Number one, you become. And obviously it's. What I'm betting on, right. As a, as an entrepreneur, is that we become the one. Call it also there's some of those services that are much higher margin. Right. There's no cost of goods in me managing your digital marketing services. There's some cost of goods, but it's a totally different deal. That being said, I think it's really important when you add those things that you don't lose sight of your core. I always say that we need to make sure that we still focus on the straw that stirs the drink. You know, 85% of our revenue still comes from branded merch. We need to not lose sight of that and make sure that we're. If we're doing these other services that they are synergistic with what we offer, we have offered in the past, if that makes sense.

Yeah, Bill what are you saying?

I agree 100% with Kirby, so I'm not going to belabor the point. The only thing I'd add to it is I think for distributors, the real change in services, what I'm seeing is distributors are finally starting to think first as marketers and second as salespeople.

Good point.

So we all agree that everybody buys promotional products. So if that's what we all agree on, that's the foundation of the industry, then stop trying to sell people what they're already going to buy. Focus on getting them the right equipment to solve their marketing issues. What piece of branded merchandise is going to do that? And when you start thinking about it from the end result of the client and less about what can I sell them to make my car payment this month, you end up really being starting that agency model that Kirby and his team have already fabulously built in Ohio.

Yeah. And Bobby, if I may, one of the things that I've found you talked about a trend. I was having this conversation with Bill the other day that I was talking to another distributor. He said margins are really getting tougher to come by right now, just in this inflationary period. And I gave, I really didn't respond. I wanted to give it some thought. And what I came back to is we need to get back to the concept of getting proactive about the ideas that we promote. If all we're doing is reorders and listening to phone calls, yeah, that's when margins deteriorate. And so ironically, while it's a trend, it's sort of going back to basics that we go to our clients with actual solutions to their problems. Which is exactly what Bill said.

Yeah. Yep. And oddly enough, distributors face margin pressure in a different way. We've seen an increase in services, so more distributors are doing kitting and packaging fulfillment. But margins have stayed the same or declined. And so there is a squeeze in profit that's happened as a trend in the industry. Let's bundle three different technology questions into one. So, you know, this isn't just because we're a technology company. Technology runs every facet of our lives. So let me ask you how technology is changing the industry and innovation moving forward, both in client facing technology, in the ops that runs a distributor's business, and then of course in E commerce, it's just three different areas. But how do you see technology moving forward impacting the industry? And it's a broad question, Bill.

Yeah, I think from client facing technology, which is the first part of your question, I think it depends on your Definition of client facing. I think if you are a supplier and your client is the distributor. Yeah, we've seen a ton of tools. I think a ton in common. SKU is. Is not common sku, but I'll get to you guys in a second. But there's a lot of great tools that supplier use to sell to their salesforce, which are distributors. That's their client. When we're talking about end users as a distributor client, not so much commonsku, which I allude to a second ago. You guys have done a great job with presentation tools and things like that. Facilis does a great job with things like that. A lot of innovation there, but it's not enough. There's still the same old way we've presented products. I think that, that, that's one from an operations technology perspective. I think we're seeing it a lot, especially with companies like you and things like promo. But again, I think not enough. We are. I still joke with people when I explain the industry in which I am employed that we are kind of like Mad Men, except without really snappy outfits in cocktails at lunch hour. Most of the time we're still distributors that run paper manila folders across offices. We still hear phrases like camera ready art. We're not there yet and hopefully we will. And then I think you said, I think last week, commerce, E commerce. I think the biggest, you know, distributors are scared of E commerce, right? They are. They fear foreign print. They fear seeing that on tv. Whereas I think, I think all three of us would agree. I don't want to speak for anybody here. I'll speak for Kirby, but I won't speak for you, Bobby. But I know Kirby would agree that. I think we agree a lot. A rising tide lifts all boats. And when we see those commercials for 4imprint, that's giving the entire industry visibility. That's a good thing, in my opinion. But I don't think people understand, especially distributors understand how they can employ E Commerce as an additional revenue stream. Not to replace what you feel comfortable doing and you think your secret sauce is, but it can be an additional revenue stream for people who do want that. Amazon like experience. I want to click and buy. I just don't. I don't want to deal with anybody. And that's okay. You could make a ton of money doing that. You can make a ton of money doing that. So I think the biggest challenge is they don't understand, really. How do I. How do I make this part of my business and not have it envelop my whole Business thereby I'm now competing on price with 4 imprint.

Yeah, Kirby.

Yeah. In this I was conflicted about my answers on this but as I'm listening to Bill it's kind of coagulating my thoughts. So I think when I look at these areas, I think that the level of innovation is driven by two places. It's by suppliers and by end users. I'm only speaking for me. I'm sure there are more innovative distributors out there. But when I think of operations, technology and the promo standards of the world, those are the folks who are doing so much more of that. And obviously common SKU you are making it easier to manage orders and things like that. And then the E commerce piece, the tools have become out there. But I think it's because end users are demanding that they don't go through an entire presentation, pick the color, pick the item and then realize it's out of stock. And then hey, I want to have that Amazon experience. So I want to have my own company store. So suppliers are I think doing most of the investing on in my experience, but it's because end users are sort of demanding or requesting it. On the other hand, I think to Bill's point, those of us in the middle when a, we need to appreciate and it shows a little piece of gratitude for the folks who are doing that work and then number two, not put our heads in the sand and decide that we want to do business the same way we've always done it. I think the ones who are coming out on the other side are the ones who are like, okay, I'm gonna trust a common SKU shop. I'm gonna try to build this thing and it may not go perfect the first time. And there's going to be, understand there's going to be a learning curve because every time you do something the first time you're probably going to suck at it. Being willing to do that in a way so that you can quickly get better at it and add that piece of business like Bill said, that's going to add to your bottom line but also add to the experience where customers actually come to you for that sort of thing. I think those who are willing to lean in on that come out stronger

on the other side.

Yeah.

You know, it's ironic. Suppliers have done a great job providing marketing tools both to distributors and to the end user at the same time. And what we're, we're seeing in B2B research in general is that the B2B buyer is demanding more and more self serve tools. Yeah, so things like the portals. And I asked, and I asked Dale Denham this question. I said, what do you think is the biggest trend happening in the industry? And he mentioned shops. I don't mention shops just because we sell shops. I think it's, it's just been an astonishing number to see grow. I mean, July, Kirby, you and I were talking about this. The three Js in the industry were always our slowest months. July was the biggest month we've had for shops yet. So there's interesting embrace happening and perhaps we serve, you know, maybe a more progressive side of the market, but it's what's the gap where B2B buyers are demanding more digital. Self serve has to be filled.

Well. And I think what you're seeing is that the customer is saying, look again, I was just listening to this on Delivering Marketing Joy, the podcast that I do, the gal that I had on there, Deanna Shimoda, was saying that 73% of customers want to get all the way through the sales funnel without dealing with the salesperson. And so utilizing and embracing those tools so that you're giving them access to everything they want until it's time to actually push the button is, I think, powerful.

Yeah. There's a reason why large grocery stores are doing away with people scanning your items and they're almost fully self serve. Your audience is telling you what they want. It's a shame on us if we're not listening.

Yeah. We've all three been at this a while to see probably some really astonishing trends happen with the receptivity of merch and culture in general from the consumer standpoint, from B2B doesn't matter. The B2B consumer and the B2C customer are the same. How have you seen the impact of merch affect the public at large, both negative and positive? Bill, let's start with you.

Yeah. I, I think the one thing that stuck on my mind when you were talking about that is with a proliferation of collaborations, both that make sense and both that make me go, I don't understand this at all.

Right.

Yet I'm looking at it, right? So, you know, there are some that are actual functional and they try to make it functional there. Some are just clickbait and, and gosh darn it if they don't work. So I think that bodes very well for our industry. You know, when we got in the industry, and I'll speak for me, when I got in at 23 years ago, gosh, I'm old. But when I got in 23 years ago we were this redheaded stepchild of marketing. And I get to say that because I do have redheaded twin boys. But you know, we were this kind of, oh, shit, what are we giving away at the trade show next week? That was our marketing. Now we are really, we've elevated. PPAI has done a fantastic job over the last decade, really elevating us. And so I think the future is very, very good, but only for the distributors that are really trying to create that overall experience. There are still many distributors out there and still making a decent living putting logos on things. Those days are almost over, if they're not over already. Yeah, we used to joke. All of us in this industry used to joke when we would go to a trade show. We're jaded. We don't see the magic and all that. Our audience is now aware that it's not that hard to put a phone number or a logo on a pen. It's not the Magic it was five, 10 years ago. So if you're not working continually to create that magic, you are going to be left behind. But I think the future for our industry is rock solid.

Yeah, Kirby?

Yeah, I think that, I think Bill and I have talked about, I think Bobby, you and I have talked about this separately. One of the benefits, for lack of a better term of the pandemic was that it showcased the to ability, the need, the desire to do quality merch.

Right.

You know, it doesn't make Sense to spend $25 to ship a 5 cent pen. And so I felt like there was a real shift in, okay, well if we're going to do this, let's go ahead and do it right now. So I think that elevated our industry in the conversation of marketing and advertising in culture. Like it really, I think made a big difference through there. Now the one thing, that's the caveat. So I'd say that's a real positive. The caveat is we need to continue that work as an industry. It is really easy for us to go, yeah, okay, everything's fine now let me sell you some cheap shit. And we, we have to fight that urge. I understand that, you know, sometimes that we want to go inexpensive, but it doesn't have to be crappy. And so I think spending that time to educate our customers, to help them do a better job of representing their own brand, if we as an industry can continue to do that, it will serve the entire industry well.

Well, go ahead.

No, yeah, I was totally agree. Could just, I was, I was verbally applauding

this Here's a great Mark Graham question. Okay, this is. This is a fun one. What industry topic in the past 12 months has divided the two of you the most on your podcast?

I'm gonna say lists. Yeah, so. Yeah, so. So, Bill, now I will say I want to. I want to back him up on this. So too. So I am. I love lists. I think they're fun. I think they're interesting. I think they're fodder. I don't really care. Like, I. I actually like the fact that many of the times I disagree with them. Bill has, I, I think, talked a lot about it here recently where it's like he just doesn't like sort of ranked list. Where it's. Where it's. It's kind of subjective.

I.

And I. Bill, I want to back you up here. So I promopulse just put out their top content providers or whatever. And it was fascinating, Bobby, that the next day there was comments about it and it was very positive. Whatever. But the next day Jason said, look, Jason Noakes from promopulse said, this is exactly how I come up with the list. Here's the metrics, here's the why. And I will say it was satisfying to understand that. So to Bill's. To back up Bill's point, I think that there is value in that, but I really. I just enjoy all the lists.

Too many lists, Bobby. Too many lists. Boy, I sounded very trumpy in there. It's the worst deal we've ever had. No, here's. I don't mind lists when they're ranked, and I'm talking specifically about ranked lists. I don't mind ranked lists when there's data and metrics behind it. Largest sales volume. Of course I can be fudged, but. But you get my point. Same thing with, with Jason Noakes list. It's the. The lists that are ranked that are. Well, we're throwing what we interpret as creative or we interpret as innovative, or we interpret as this When. When it's ranked and there's not tangible specific data. I don't. I don't like the rankings now. I love lists. When, for example, greatest places to work comes out, I'll use that as an example that's just listed alphabetical. So I don't really care what the metrics are. It's where I get divisive on it is when it's ranked for just silly reasons. It's just for us to talk about. So.

But you know, which is what we're doing. So there we go.

Exactly.

All Right.

So another great Mark Graham question. What's one opinion you held about the industry 10 years ago that you now realize was wrong? Kirby, let's start with you. Yeah, sure.

So I think 10 years ago I thought that there would be never be a. A supplier and a distributor that were owned by the same. Whether they, they. Whether the supplier came over or whatever. I. I felt like that that was a. An incredibly divisive way to do business. I actually still think that to a degree. But do I think that could happen? Yeah, I think it could happen.

I thought by now there would be several large unnamed suppliers that would have eschewed the traditional business model of going. Going through the middleman of distributors, and they would go direct very publicly, to end users. I still think that'll happen, but it hadn't happened yet. I also thought I'd see some exclusive deals between specific suppliers and specific distributors, thereby giving distributors kind of. That we're the only ones that have this type of product or this exact product, but we haven't seen that. But those. Those are the two I thought of.

Interesting. Okay. Both very similar. Let's switch now to content trends because we all work in the world of content. We love this world. It's something that we love and agonize over. Straw poll. Where do you consume most of your content now, Kirby? Start with you.

YouTube's number one. TikTok is the fastest growing for me.

For you personally, that's where you're going.

That's just me personally. YouTube, by far. It's. I mean, it's. There's not a close second. That's where I go to do research. That's where I go to be entertained. But I will say that now that I'm sharing more on con on TikTok, boy, it sucks you in.

Yeah. Bill, how about you?

I am not a ticker or a talker. I am a podcast guy. So really podcasts down avenues and deep roads and try to find podcasts that not only entertain me when I want to not think of work, but also help educate me when I am thinking about work. So I'm a podcast guy. Yeah.

Okay. Are you both using AI right now in some of your content? If so, how? Kirby?

Yeah, for me, there's a couple things. Number one is ideation. Hey, give me this many ideas about this topic and then I create from there. And then the other piece is, as a company will be saying, okay, because we do the digital marketing and social media and stuff like that for other companies, man, it's hard not to sound the same with every, every post. So we'll use ChatGPT and some of those tools to be like, okay, help me write a post that means this. Just to give it a fresh voice. We always are putting our own flavors on it. But that's. Those are the two places that I find we're using it almost on the daily.

Yeah, I find I do and I find I use chat GPT almost as a the thoris these days. As opposed to going, I use okay, I want to say this but in a different way.

Help me.

And then that spurs the ideation. So it's very similar to Kirby. It's ideation I also use, I will say on the graphic side of it, I use mid journey on a daily basis both for clients and for the content that we do here at brandvate.

Yeah. Wow.

It's become my own personal stock photo. I don't have to go searching for, you know, weird looking office people looking strangely happy in a place they shouldn't be that happy. I can create my own and it's been an incredible tool to, for, for, for me and my clients. Absolutely.

You're both working in content. Of the various content practices you deploy for business, whether it's, you know, both between Brandovate and Hasseman are where are you seeing the biggest impact? Are you seeing in newsletters? Are you seeing in YouTube? Are you starting to crank up more short term form video? Like where are you seeing big returns and big impact or. Or maybe that's a little dramatic but just returns or impact. Kirby.

Shorts, shorts, shorts, shorts. So and again, you guys know Monday minute DMJ promo up front. Love that we get, get value in all of those. In the last couple months, probably three months, I've started ramping up shorts that I can go across platforms. So I keep them at 60 seconds, put the captions on. So I'm on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, you know, like you name it. And you going across those platforms and the feedback I've gotten on those has been really, really good. It's literally the kind of stuff where people are actually physically coming up to me in person and going, hey, I really like that specific video and I haven't had that in a long time.

Yeah.

The other thing that's interesting is this sort of that same piece of content across platforms one day on Facebook that'll go crazy and no one cares on YouTube. YouTube, right. The opposite happens the next day. And so the, the volume of shorts that you need to get has been, that's been eye Opening for me.

Yeah. Bill, how about you?

For me, it's a bit across because I, you know, we do the podcast, which is obviously a marketing vehicle for brand of A. I do a blog every Monday, obviously, another, you know, but that's writing. That's a. That's reading people actually reading and engaging. And the beverage of the week is now a video, a short video. So I agree there. I think for me, it's variety. I don't think it's one or the other. So I'm answering your question in the way of a politician. I'm not really answering it. I think it's variety, though. I think people want variety. They crave it. I know I do. I try to give. Create content the way I consume it.

Yeah.

I get bored hearing the same thing and seeing the same thing over and over again. So I figure if I'm bored, there's got to be a lot of people bored. So to me, it's variety because I find, like Kirby, I find value in all of them.

Them.

Yeah. As running. Running businesses. We want one answer, and there is not one answer when it comes to content, unfortunately. What do you both. This may be a really dumb question because it might be obvious as we're sitting here, but what do you enjoy working on the most? Because I think that has a profound impact on what a distributor creates. I always talk with the distributor about when they talk about getting into content, I start with what they enjoy. Like, what do. What do they enjoy? Themselves, because they'll tend to gravitate to it and accomplish it first. Kirby, what about you?

You?

Yeah, I think one of my favorite pieces of content to do each week is promo up front with Bill. It's. It's. Not only is it like a little bit of a therapy session, because my buddy and I get to talk, we laugh, and, like, there are times where. Where I'm not in a great mood. I think, Bill, you'd agree. We come and we're both grumpy, and then we kind of put on that. That. That Persona and do it, and I leave in a better mood. So that. That for sure. I find that writing is therapeutic still for me. And so what I'll do is put some things down on paper, and then I really am having fun with the shorts, too. Like, again, because it allows me to try a bunch of crap like, hey, I like this idea, and I've only got a minute to do it. And so that's been really fun for me lately. Yeah.

Rather than emotionally investing in one big piece, you've got all of this. That's interesting. And the therapy thing, we all get. Bill, how about you? How. What do you enjoy?

Yeah, I love doing promo front with Kirby. You know, we've done a weekly podcast for darn near a little over seven years now, every week. And I couldn't ask for a better partner than Kirby. I've said that. Not any, any chance I get without, without Kirby, there isn't a promo up front. There just wouldn't be. And so it is a therapy session. And I love the collaboration. I, I love the fact that neither one of us prepare for it. We just kind of show up and, and do that. And I think we're gonna do a crossover event here in the next week or so. So more on that to follow. But I love doing that as a collaborator individually. I have always used writing as a therapy for me. And so my blog tends to be all over the map. Sometimes it is about business, sometimes it's about personal things I'm going through. It is absolute key catharsis for me. Whether I publish it or not. I write almost every single day because that's what helps me remain centered, remain balanced, remain focused.

Final question. I'm asking this because really the community loves this question. We're all looking for insight like this. What's the most recent article? Podcast, book? I know this is a regular question, but honestly, I love it too. What's the most recent article or podcast or book or video you've watched that really made a difference in how you work, how you live or how you think? Kirby.

So the person who and I follow a lot of folks you know, this is Seth Godin. Every day, Ed Mylett, there's a bunch of them. Alex Hermosi is a guy I've been following. He's about a 33 year old entrepreneur who has had $100 million exit. Man, that guy is thoughtful. He's got a podcast called the Game that comes out a couple times a week. I find every time I listen to it I'm like, man, that's like. He is so wise beyond his years. I found him to be amazing. He has a book called Hundred Million Dollar Offers that is powerful and he's got a new book coming out here and again I have nothing in it but new a hundred million dollar leads that I like. I think it comes out like in a week or so. I'm going to buy it the moment it comes out. So he's one of those voices that, that is impacting me right now.

That's cool. Bill, how about you.

I just recently read a book by one of my favorite reality stars, Anthony Mary, who used to host a show called Hotel Impossible, where he would go in as a hotelier and help renovate these small mom and pop hotels. And I always found I like those type of shows. I find them fascinating. And he wrote a great book called Gosh, what's the name of it? What's the name of it? Show up. That's it. Show up. Show Up. And in it, he talks about five steps about getting out of your own way. And that's something I struggle with. And it really resonated with me. Was a. It was a quick read, but it was a good read. And my biggest takeaway from it was, well, there's a lot of big takeaways, but biggest one is don't sweat the small stuff. Obsess over the small stuff. And I really, really, really love that. So Anthony Melle, show up Up. Love that book.

I love that. I always. When Mark and I are putting on events, we always joke that there are no details. Really, it's everything.

Everything it is.

You know, Bill and Kirby, you have made such an impact on this business. I love your show up front. We are doing a crossover which I mentioned in the intro. And so Mark and I'll be joining you on that show. I can't wait. Because that's your. Your show format is fantastic. It's fun. It's energizing. I love it. And thank you for making such a profound impact, impact on this community and on the industry. My friends, you impress me both and amaze me. Thank you.

You're too kind.

You are very too kind. Thank you so much, Bobby. Honored to be here.

Thanks, buddy.