Addressing microaggressions in the workplace | with Mo Abdullah

Sam sa. Hi there. And you're very welcome to this week's shortlist from Social Talent with me, Holly Fawcett. I'm the director of content here at Social Talent, and I'll be keeping the shortlist presenter seat warm this week while Jonny is away. And what a topic and a guest do I have for you today? Today we'll be taking on the subject of microaggressions in the workplace. Unless you've been perhaps intentionally keeping yourself out of the loop on this topic, you'll have noticed that microaggressions have really come to the mainstream as a hindrance to inclusion in the workplace and really to society at large. But the thing is, microaggressions are comments that many of us have unintentionally said, and these are seemingly innocuous comments that are, in fact, they reflect assumptions about people based on some element of their identity.

And.

And there are many, many out there who think microagressions are micro, that they're small, that they're not intentional and therefore should be ignored, that we should all have to get over ourselves, we should grow with thick skin. Now, all of what I've just said there, all of those are examples of microaggressions, and we have to address this kind of behavior, especially in our workplaces and our wider communities. So joining us on the show this week to discuss this with me is Mo Abdullah. Mo is the founder and CE of Culture Energized, a company which specializes in training around diversity, equity and inclusion, and culture transformation. We'll be chatting about how microaggressions impact the workplace, why people might be hesitant to tackle this issue, and also dive into actionable advice about building on an environment of accountability, of trust, and of empathy. So welcome. Can you share Self and Culture Energized for our viewers and our listeners, please?

Awesome. Thank you all so much for having me. My name is Mo Abdullah, and my pronouns are she, her, and right now. I'm currently in Charlotte, but I started Culture Energized around three years ago, and before that I was in education. And so, funny story, you're not going to believe this, but this was a real job. I actually used to run recess programming at schools, and recess is like its own ecosystem that is also similar to the workplace, where there are a lot of different things happening, people coming into the recess space, getting to learn games. There's a culture that exists, and one of my roles was to create that culture that would also resonate throughout the school and the classrooms and the teachers as well, and so with that, I really realized the. The power of having an inclusive culture and how many areas that it could reach within the school day as well. And so after doing that for a lot of years, I was like, you know, we need the same sort of energy in the workplace. And what does it look like not just to have team building, just for a day. We need something a little bit more sustainable with some more substance. And so I started to educate myself on what does it actually mean, the different pillars of culture. And that brought me to diversity, equity, inclusion. And at this time, of course, diversity, equity, inclusion had been a conversation for many years. But I realized I wanted to bring something different. I wanted to add more energy, I wanted to add more discussion, I wanted to add more. More aha moments. So that way, as we were learning, it was in a way that was a little bit more refreshing and approachable. And so culture energized. We specialize in interactive foundational learning. So that means having those conversations around bias, microaggressions, introducing people to privilege in the workplace, and how that shows up equity allyship. So really giving participants and companies a really great foundation of education that they can continue to build on with higher level workshops and trainings, but also give them some confidence and energy that like, hey, with this foundational learning, we can actually really start to move the neo forward in our organizations and be confident about having conversations with our employees as well as our clients and everyone that we engage with in our communities. So, yeah, it's been a really amazing journey thus far and excited to keep it going.

That sounds like what an evolution to go from structured play to how adults communicate and essentially learn through. Learn through doing as well. I think that's absolutely fascinating, really, for just how we communicate with one another. Perhaps maybe you can enlighten us to some of the examples of what you have to counteract or what you have to unlearn in some of those environments, maybe with some of your clients.

Yeah, I think something that was similar is that conflict resolution is something that happens in both our schools as well as the workplace and how we navigate that and giving our students and also adults the tools to be able to work through conflict and be able to maintain relationships. I think there are a lot of stereotypes that exist around who plays certain things in on the recess yard. And the same exists in the workplace around who's capable, who do we extend opportunities to. And so really breaking down a lot of those stereotypes and giving students and adults opportunities to showcase their talents as well as breaking down a Lot of those barriers so that everyone has a fair, fair access to all the opportunities and resources that they need to be successful. So, yeah, I think in the workplace and what we're doing now is really just having those conversations around, like, embracing conflict. Like what it means when we say that we really want diversity, but not also just assuming that, like, everything is going to be kumbaya all the time. Like, we have to embrace conflict if we really are embracing diversity and building our skills and our ability to navigate through that and breaking down barriers as we become more aware of what other people are going through.

Yeah, 100%. So maybe for the uninitiated, is microaggressions strictly conflict? Is it stereotypes? Is it smaller than that? Bigger than that? Describe to me what precisely what we mean by microaggressions for those who may not be as clear.

Yeah, so I think, you know, the easiest way to describe microaggressions is actually in three parts, because it is actually the term microaggressions can be very misleading, as we'll get into with the article. So I think the first part of microaggressions is that they are everyday comments, behaviors, and slights that occur through our socializations with other people in other groups. So this can also be in conversation with an informal conversation with co workers. This could be walking into the supermarket and having stairs or people following you. And it could also be environmental, where you come into an event and you might be the only person that looks like you. And there's no speakers or people on the panel that represent the communities that you come from. And so these are sort of everyday situations. And so on a given day, a person can experience many microaggressions. The second part of microaggressions is that they can be intentional and unintentional. So that means microaggressions are also fed by our unconscious biases, meaning that we may not even be aware of the language that we're using or the behaviors and compliments, backhanded compliments that we might be exhibiting to other people as we're having conversations unintentionally. And then sometimes we do, we do mean to say the things that we're saying, but we may not also understand the impact. So that could be making a joke, right? An inappropriate joke that sort of borderlines what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. But again, we may not understand the impact of it. For us, it could be as simple as, like, man, you're so gay, or like, that's so gay, you might Say that in the joking way. And even though you know that they may have some negative connotations to it, you may not understand the impact, but it still is intentional. So most microaggressions, for the most part, are unintentional. And then the last part of it is that microaggressions have hidden messages of aggression as well, which is why that aggression part is part of the word. You can call it aggression, you can call it exclusion, but a lot of times when we say things or in our behaviors, on the surface level, it might seem harmless, but what you're really translating is a hidden message that maybe that you don't belong here or you don't fit the stereotype or. Yeah, like, it could be a subtle aggression of I don't value what you have to say in this moment if I'm ignoring you while you're talking and looking at my phone. So it's all of those different things combined that create the impact of what microaggressions are.

Yeah, that's a wonderful way to lay them out, actually, that three parts. And when you think about it in itself, totality, you see just how big it is for something that we call micro, which actually kind of is a nice. We segue into our first article for today to bring us up, which is from the Harvard Business Review. We need to retire the term microaggressions. This is by Rushika Tolshayan in the Harvard Business Review from March in 2022. Very, very interesting article. We'll put the link to this article in the chat for facility here for YouTube and LinkedIn, but also into the show notes of our podcast if you listen to this afterwards. Why the need to retire the term microaggressions? What did you take for this, Mom?

Yeah, like I mentioned before, I think it's very misleading. When you see anything that starts with the word micro, you automatically think small or it's not a big deal. But that term really just gets at maybe the action of it because they are subtle behaviors and. But it doesn't actually get at the impact, which is the most important part. Microaggressions. And even just speaking from personal experiences, they are things that linger in my mind when they occur to me. And so, for example, recently I just moved into a new spot and I went to Walmart. And as I was going through Walmart, I noticed that I was looking for different hair products and stuff like that. As I'm moving and getting all my stuff together. Yeah, yeah. So I was going and I was walking through the hair care area. And what I realized was that all of the hair care area for people that had natural hair had been locked up. And there was also a huge video camera that was present just in that area. And then you look at the other aisles where there's like, you know, more hair products for people that might have, you know, straight hair, like, I don't know, the brands, l' Oreal Shampoo, Pantene, all of those type of areas where again, we don't use those parts for our hair. And there was none of that. And so, you know, I'm standing there thinking, like, I have to go through all of this extra steps, have to find somebody to unlock, you know, all of this, these hair products. I'm also being recorded in this area. And I'm like, so what does this mean? The underlining message is that you all cannot be trusted. Those people that use these types of products, you cannot be trusted. And you're going to need to go through extra steps that maybe other people may not have to go through just to get the same thing. And those types of messages are really damaging because we also get those messages even walking down the street, going to like just taking a walk in our neighborhood or an adjacent neighborhood. And I think the impact of all of those things really cuts deep at the emotional level of how we think about ourselves. And yes, we have to keep going to Walmart or going to different places, but I think because a lot of the microaggressions are attached to our identities, you can't really escape it, especially race and gender and all those things that are more visual, the impact of them in every place that you go is prevalent. And so these messages sort of stay with you and it impacts the way that you think about yourself and also your mental health in these spaces.

So from a. Sorry, I'm still getting over that image of having hair care products locked up behind a cabinet or something and a security camera place like, that's bananas. And you're right, blatantly discriminatory while also seeming. Actually that's not seeming well meaning. So I suppose in a sense the way we would traditionally have felt about microaggressions or even have described them in the past as being somewhat sort of well meaning, as you were saying, a sort of a weird compliment. So like, oh, your English is great, as if, you know, you're for somebody who, whose first language is English, but they don't happen to look traditionally like somebody who would speak English as their first language. For example, I've heard that One many times, you know, and like, for example, like just there are so many examples like that that as you said, say intentionally or initially well meaning. But that is a very distinct difference. I think that's actually being. No, no, no. We have assumptions about people who require these types of hair care products versus the others, versus the l' oreals and the plantains and the others that they, as you say, can't be trusted or follow a stereotype like that. And so we need to control them more. This strange. I don't know. Misplaced, certainly. Misplaced. But it's certainly that infantilizes individuals, which is really damaging, isn't it? Absolutely. So infantilization, I think happens in the workplace quite a lot as well. For, for example, people who become parents for the first time, you know, we try not. We don't give them projects that we think are going to be too stressful for you now because you have a new baby at home or whatever, or people are going through transition. For example, in the trans. Anybody who's going through a particularly difficult, tumultuous time that is of course going to affect their, their work. They may in fact be be using work as something that's been like, at least work is same, at least work will stay the same. It's going to remain to be structured. And in fact, leaders tend to have again, a sort of misplaced version of infantilizing or paternalism against or towards these individuals who they now think of as different or fitting onto different stereotype. What I thought was quite interesting about this Harvard Business Review article about retiring microaggressions is the fact that leaders definitely need to be the ones who need to step up, more so than others, in particular, of understanding, addressing those acts of exclusion and the acts of those microaggressions and not just call them out, but really make it a hard and fast rule that these things don't happen. And I know that's something that you work with a lot of culture energized when you're working both facilitating groups but also working with managers as well. Light to your work with managers and the kinds of struggles that they have to overcome for this type of behavior.

Yeah, I think one of the things that is really challenging is that because microaggressions are fed by bias and a lot of other things, but specifically bias, it's really hard to eliminate. Right. And it's something that we all do. Managers do it, leaders do it, coworkers to coworkers do it, clients do it too. The list goes on. And so it's really not about, like, yes, we want to minimize it, but they will continue to occur as we get to engage and have conversations. And so it's getting number one, everyone to recognize that, like, we are not just managing it for other people, we're also managing it for ourselves. So a lot of times managers will receive complaints from their employees around microaggressions. But then when an employee talks to a manager and says, hey, actually you committed a microaggression, or this is how your behavior impacted me, a lot of times with the hierarchy of how businesses are running, you don't actually get that same sort of resolution because managers could be like, well, that's not my intention. And sometimes it's really hard for them to hold themselves accountable as well. So the first step is making sure everyone is in agreeance that, like, anyone can commit a microaggression because everyone has bias. And I think secondly, one of the things that training managers and leaders on is kind of the specific ways in which they shut down conversations, right? They shut down and maybe try to avoid these conflicts through tone policing. So making other people manage their tone in order for them to receive the message, rather than just actually listening to the message and receiving what the person. The feedback the person is saying. And then also gaslighting. So just because you may not have experienced or noticed that a microaggression exists, doesn't mean that it didn't exist. And so really training them around tone policing, what is that? And how do we avoid that in ourselves so that way we are not crushing conversations before they even begin. And then also gaslighting. So recognizing that though you might have still been in the same room, it's okay if you didn't notice it, but that's why we need to be open to receiving new information. So it's really about training managers on how to keep the conversation going instead of just stopping it abruptly. Because really, to understand microaggressions and the impact, you need to be able to receive those conversations from the people that it actually impacted for you to have better understanding of it. And then number three is actually like taking them seriously, right? And not just moving forward, having policies in place around, like, language that is, we don't tolerate this language in our workplace. We don't tolerate these types of jokes that might be demeaning to someone's identity, ethnicity, to their sexual orientation. So really, having leadership set the tone around, these are things that we won't tolerate. And when microaggressions do occur, here are some steps that we can take, making sure people know who to talk to. Do they go to hr, do they talk to their manager? What are the steps that they need to take and who do they need to talk to? And if these situations don't get resolved, what is the next step forward? Are there written or verbal write ups that need to occur as well? So giving, giving managers and leaders different situational scenarios that they can work through so that way they can start the process of okay, if these type of things happen, what are we going to do about it versus and being proactive about it versus being reactive where now it's a bigger situation and we have people that are thinking about leaving our organization. So it's about really having those, those, those things in place. So they know about tone policing, they know about keeping the conversation going and also how to mend relationships and then having them practice through different scenarios. What are we going to do if these sort of things happen?

Yeah, can I take a little bit into tone policing and maybe just a small bit to getting your view in a way that the microaggressions themselves and policing those specific words for individuals who are not in the room. Right. So a conversation happens amongst a group of people where a microaggression against a cohort of individuals who aren't present in that conversation at all happens. Should a manager step in there and say, now hang on a second, remember what you said there. Actually, you know, we don't use the word guys in this conversation. We don't use that word or this phrase or you know, this diminutive term because despite the fact that there's no women in the conversation or there's no, no, you know, the person who is being acted against here isn't there or isn't even in the company. Right. There could be a whole range of things. What should a manager do in that case? Is it a case of policing the conversation rather than the tone? It's policing the words that are said regardless. Or is it always up for ensuring that microaggressions are just not occurring where they actually are directed on an individual?

Yeah, I think it's always important to interrupt if you recognize it. And there's different ways to interrupt it. There are ways where you can call it in. If it's in a group setting, then visual allyship is really important to kind of say, hey, actually I heard this. Let's make sure that we're not not using this language. And it could be as simple as we're not using this language. You can use this instead. But here at this company in order, you know, tying it back to your company values and having it in that space. And sometimes it's not always a manager that's there, sometimes it's another coworker that realizes, hey, I think a microaggression has occurred. You might need to do a call in where maybe later on in that day you say, hey, I noticed something. Would you be open to feedback and having a one on one discussion with an individual that way? So there's lots of different ways to interrupt it. But I think the biggest part of microaggressions is that again, most of them are unconscious. And so we need other people to tap us on the shoulder and say, hey, that wasn't okay. And this is what this means and this is how it impacts different communities. And here is some other, if you know, other language, here are some things that you could have said differently. Here are some language that you could use. So definitely interrupt and as best as you can. You know, that's why it comes with confidence. Right. And making it more of a cultural practice to say, like, it's okay if somebody taps you on the shoulder because that's how you learn. That's how we get better and leadership communicating that it is okay to be interrupted because that means somebody cares about you enough to interrupt you. And this is also a growth opportunity for you and all of us so that we can be more aware as we are engaging. Yeah.

And lastly, before we move on to some of the comments that are in the comment section here, but also I think what Rashek is really saying here is that retiring the word microaggress is more about the phrase microaggression, more so than the microaggressions themselves. Obviously we want to remove those in the conversation as much as we can. So she proposes that we use the phrase exclusionary behaviors instead. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

I agree. I think I agree. And I also think that, like, it's not just even exclusion. I think it is an act of aggression. Whether we realize it or not, it. For a lot of, for a lot of people, it does feel very much like, like this when they occur. There is a physical, I think in me, like there is a physical reaction that occurs when I'm experiencing microaggressions and they also linger for a really long time. So I don't even think exclusion gets to the impact of a lot of these, of the impact of microaggression. So I would even just add in it is a subtle or hidden act of aggression because I think that really gets to the meat of it because at the end of the day a lot of these microaggressions people leave. People leave their workplaces that they might have loved. They end relationships sometimes over repeated microaggressions. And so it's not even just the fact that we're not being included. It is something that really cuts deep and it's a lot of cuts. It's a lot of the same messages. So I would even just make it so that people understand it is an act of, of aggression. Maybe subtle, but.

Yes, well, subtle happens once it's subtle. When it happens 100 times it compounds. It's this cumulative effect of this really like what is it? A death by a thousand cuts for sure. Yeah, certainly. And so there's one other article that as well that we wanted to bring into the conversation. This was a CBC article from Canada which is Anxieties about microaggressions rise as in person work returns. And really this is an article from earlier in the month of March. Be quite interesting as we now come back from our working from home scenarios. Working from the kitchen table, from the end of a bedroom, whatever it is, to now finally coming back to an in office scenario for any office based workers. That microaggressions tended to happen in those kind of, you know, in place in workplace organizations where it was water cooler moments in the kitchen, it was on the fly kind of conversations. And what's interesting about this article of course is that microaggressions did tend had been reported to be on the decrease over the last 18 months in particular. But now the fears are that oh, I'm going to come back to the office, I'm going to be faced with this again. Have you any experience of or conversations with individuals who are feeling this fear of coming back to the office that what it might mean for having to be on you know, facing the brunt of the snide weird comments again.

Yeah, I think, you know, I was in, I was doing a training and one of the participants actually mentioned that like physically they had changed like they had gained a little bit more weight or they had changed their hair and they were kind of worried about like coming into the workplace and just being a different person, getting all of those compliments or backhanded compliments like oh like did you gain some weight or like you look a little bit different or did you change it? And receiving all of those sort of comments all at once and also just like moving into a space now where like it's hard to see tone and read tone now you have to like really understand and see different people on a different level. And so I definitely think that coming into the workplace there is a little bit more fear as we start to engage and also just like figuring out like, do we give high fives now or, you know, someone's going to feel some type of way if I, like give them the elbow instead of, you know, we're even learning just how to like, our first interactions now are going to be a lot different and how we build community and what does that look like? So I think there is definitely a need to be more intentional coming in and not just assuming that like we can, the culture that we've led here on this online space is going to translate into the workplace. Because what I think a lot of companies have been finding out is that people are bringing their home work life model into the workplace. And actually what's happening is that people are not even engaging really. People are taking meetings and being on zoom while they're surrounded by people. And so I think there is a lot of space and room to be able to build in, you know, conversations about how we are going to be interacting, getting people reacquainted with inclusive language again, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate as we continue to build community as well.

Yeah, 100%. And you know what I absolutely empathize with on a personal level as well. Coming out of this pandemic, I heard a useful and probably funny saying that we're all going to come out of this pandemic either a hunk a chunk or a parent. I think I'm going to be two of those certainly. But it's, it is going to be a hard thing for us to suddenly go back into the office and see people face to face again and, and not be in our comfortable clothes that we would be in at home necessarily or not, you know, where we were shielding so much of our home life. Now we're going to have to rebalance all that again. And it's funny actually now being a parent myself, having to juggle the morning commute over to daycare, get back to the office in time, not having to actually have a real commute has been phenomenal for me. Imagine how parents pre pandemic really did this. You know, bringing children in cars to wherever they needed to go and then finally getting into the office, like I just never had to think about that. And now I'm going to have to. If I were to go back into the office, I thankfully won't have to we won't have an office anymore in our organisation for sure. But I'm one of the very, very lucky few who don't have to think about that. And one of the microaggressions that come out for parents or usually for the person who is the caring, the kind of primary carer in any kind of family scenario is, oh, you have to leave early to go and pick up kids from daycare or school or whatever and, and get back to those types of comments. Again, it's very, very tricky one to navigate and we all need to be a bit more certainly aware and alert as to what's happening. You know, be that bit more caring in particular coming out of this pandemic.

Yeah, yeah. And just catching ourselves when we start to make assumptions. Because I think there's also going to be a level of curiosity, right, curiosity as we are meeting people for the first time or reconnecting for the first time. But I think it's also just really important to be responsible and, you know, there's respectful curiosity that can exist and you don't need to learn everything about everybody in the first conversation. I think a lot of times people will go straight into like, so where are you from? And tell me this. And you know, and it seemed really like, like a rushed situation. And a lot of times, again, we're working so quickly in an autopilot, our biases will, will show very quickly. And so it's really about, like being responsible and also engaging in conversations that not just feel good to you to learn information, but like listening to the information that people want to share and not forcing things as well. So even like, as you're starting to get back into the office, like, and you might have a conversation maybe in your workplace now you all are using pronouns and stuff like that, you have a new hire always talking and sharing your stuff first and allowing somebody to share, you know, what they would like to share as well.

Yeah, I love that idea. Certainly you're right. As they're coming back into that office, that immediate rush, which to those who are at the receiving end of microaggressions all the time, feels like I need to put the barriers up. I need to shield myself from this barrage of questions. I'm going to get, I think, on the, on the, on the giving of Microsoft microaggression side of a question here for from Sean. Is there a best way to distinguish between personal overthinking and over analysis of comments made and identifying them as microaggressions, or is this all down to Personal opinion, you know, somebody looking at person at. Well, I personally take that as a microaggression versus, like. Well, actually there is a list of microaggressions I think we should all contribute to or look at and therefore learn from.

Yeah, I think that microaggressions are on the individual level. Right. Like, all of us are made up of a lot of different identities, which creates our unique experience. So you might have said this comment to maybe. What is it? My. One of my friends, she is. She's white, and she had a whole bunch of other friends that she used to use the word like ghetto. Like, that's so ghetto, ghetto, ghetto, ghetto. And a lot of her friends of color didn't mind, but then she came to me and started using good. And I was like, actually, I don't like when you use that term. Right. And so, number one, you have to respect the individual preferences because again, we are not a monolith of communities. What works for some might not work for others. And so just being open to receiving that feedback, I think is really important. And I think also I think you said overthinking too. Like, I know there's a lot of people that are coming into the workplace with caution. Right. Like, cancel culture is a thing. I don't agree with cancel culture. I think that creating opportunities for people to learn and be aware is way more important than just like canceling them. But I think there's a lot of people that I, as I do trainings, they're like, well, I'm just afraid to say the wrong thing. And like, I don't even know if I made sense of my progression or not. I think, you know, as best you can, like, ask, like, if you said something and you think it's a misstep. I think even just having that quick conversation saying, hey, this, I. I'm not sure if I said something, but I wanted to check in and double check to make sure that everything is good. And even just having those. Those comments, I know people have said something to me that I totally missed. Right. But they were like, it was on their heart and it was hard for them to communicate with me. And they weren't sure if I was angry or not. And finally they just came up to me and was just like, hey, you know, I said something earlier. Did. Did that affect your in. In any way? And I was like, no, it was probably fine. They're like, okay, good. Okay, good. Because I wasn't sure. And then we had some more dialogue and it created space for that. So I Think if you're not sure, it's okay to ask and say, hey, I know I mentioned something earlier. Was that okay or was it not okay? And using that opportunity to build relationships, because I think that is also a huge part of my coaggressions or mending relationships. Like when you receive a microaggression from someone that you don't know, it's really hard for you to, to know if it's intentional or not. Right. But if you've had a relationship with people, it's a lot easier for me to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I know this is, I know this is not what you meant because I know you and you can move forward from that.

Yeah, 100%. It's very, very strange to think about how even wanting to engage with somebody who is new to you because you're new in the organization or they're new in an organization or they're a customer you've just met or whoever it is, different departments, whatever it is, the barrier will always be there, I think. And as you're saying, even at the very, very beginning of our conversation, conflict management is something. Conflict resolution is something we all need to learn. From the time where children, even to today, we're always learning about that. I think it's really key. And just finish up on one really useful tool from that article. Actually, if you're going to get anything from that CBC article was the mention of a very, very, very useful little tool called the micropedia.org which was a. Or is rather, it's a crowdsourced, so you can, you can suggest your own phrase or microaggression that you may have received and why you believe it's microaggression to add into their library of microaggressions and why. But it's. First of all, it's beautiful looking as well, which really helps to navigate the library, I suppose, of these, of these kinds of comments. But as you read them, I certainly felt this. Anyway, when you read them, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I could see that one as being a big microaggression for sure. And I can see, I can clearly see why. But similarly also see others that you're like, oh, sugar, I'm sure I've said that to somebody in the past. And now back to what Sean and his were saying earlier, now I'm sort of overanalyzing comments that I may have made in the past and I'm thinking, am I a horrible person?

Yeah, I think, you know, it's all about Learning, right. Like when you know better than you can do better. And again, it's something that we all do. Everyone commits microaggressions even though we are all well intended and would describe ourselves as, you know, like really kind people. But I think the biggest thing too is learning language, inclusive language. Adopting more inclusive language is a great way to sort of safeguard against, you know, we're even learning just how to like our first interactions now are going to be a lot different and how we build community and what does that look like? So I think there is definitely a need now are going to be a lot different in how we build community and what does that look like? So I think there is definitely a need for to be more intentional coming in and not just assuming that like we can the culture that we've led here on this online space is going to translate into the workplace. Because what I think a lot of companies have been finding out is that people are bringing their home work life model into the workplace. And actually what's happening is that people are not even engaging really. People are taking meetings and being on zoom while they're surrounded by people. And so I think there is a lot of space and room to be able to build in, you know, conversations about how we are going to be interacting, getting people reacquainted with inclusive language. Again, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate as we continue to build community as well.

Yeah. 100. And you know what, I absolutely empathize with that on a personal level as well. Coming out of this pandemic, I heard a useful and probably funny saying that we're all going to come out of this pandemic either a hunk a chunk or a parent. I think I'm going to be two of those certainly. But it is going to be a hard thing for us to suddenly go back into the office and see people face to face again and not be in our comfortable clothes that we would be in home necessarily or not, you know, where we were shielding so much of our home life. Now we're going to have to rebalance all that again. And it's funny actually now being a.

Parent myself to be more intentional coming in and not just assuming that juggle.

The, the morning commute over to daycare, get back to the office in time. Not having to actually have a real commute has been phenomenal for me. I can't imagine how parents pre pandemic really did this. You know, bringing children in cars to wherever they needed to go and then finally get into the office like I, I just never had to think about that and now I'm going to have to. If I were to go back into the office, I thankfully won't have to. We won't have an office anymore in, in our organization for sure. But I'm one of the very, very lucky few who don't have to think about that. And what are the microaggressions account for for parents or usually for the person who is the caring. The kind of primary carer in any kind of family scenario is, oh, you have to leave early to go and pick up kids from daycare or school or whatever and get back to those types of comments again, it's very, very tricky one to navigate and we all need to be a bit more certainly aware and alert as to what's happening. You know, be that bit more caring in particular coming out of this pandemic.

Yeah, yeah. And just catching ourselves when we start to make assumptions. Because I think there's also going to be a level of curiosity, right, Curiosity as we are meeting people for the first time or reconnecting for the first time. But I think it's also just really important to be responsible and you know, there's respectful curiosity that can exist and you don't need to learn everything about everybody in the first conversation. I think a lot of times people will go straight into like, so where are you from? And tell me this. And you know, and it seemed really like, like a rushed situation. And a lot of times again, we were working so quickly in an autopilot, our biases will show very quickly. And so it's really about like being responsible and also engaging in conversations that not just feel good to you to learn information, but like listening to the information that people want to share and not forcing things as well. So even like as you're starting to get back into the office, like, and you might have a conversation maybe in your workplace now you all are using pronouns and stuff like that you have a new hire always talking and sharing your, your stuff first and allowing somebody to share, you know, what they would like to share as well.

Yeah, I love that idea. Certainly you're right as you're coming back into that office, that immediate rush which to those who are the, the receiving end of microaggressions all the time feels like I need to put the barriers up. I need to shield myself from this barrage of questions. I'm going to get, I think on the, on the, on the giving of microaggressions side of a question here from Sean. Is there a Best way to distinguish between personal overthinking and over analysis of comments made and identifying them as microaggressions. Or is this all down to personal opinion? You know, somebody looking at. Well, I personally take that as a microaggression versus, like, well, actually there is a list of microaggressions I think we should all contribute to or look at and therefore learn from.

Yeah, I think that microaggressions are on the individual level. Right. Like all of us are made up of a lot of different identities, which creates our unique experience. So you might have said this comment to maybe. What is it? One of my friends, she is, she's white and she had a whole bunch of other friends that she used to use the word like ghetto. Like, that's so ghetto, ghetto, ghetto, ghetto. And a lot of her friends of color didn't mind, but then she came to me and started using ghetto. And I was like, actually, I don't like when you use that term. Right. And so, number one, you have to like, respect the individual preferences because again, we are not a monolith of communities. What works for some might not work for others. And so just being open to receiving that feedback, I think is really important. And I think also I think you said overthinking too. Like, I know there's a lot of people that are coming into the workplace with caution. Right. Like cancel culture is a thing. I don't agree with cancel culture. I think that creating opportunities for people to learn and be aware is way more important than just like canceling them. But I think there's a lot of people that, as I do trainings, they're like, well, I'm just afraid to say the wrong thing. And like, I don't even know if I made set of microaggression or not. I think, you know, as best you can, like ask like if you said something and you think it's a misstep. I think even just having that quick conversation saying, hey, I'm not sure if I said something, but I wanted to check in and double check to make sure that everything is good. And even just having those comments, I know people have said something to me that I totally missed. Right? But they were like, it was on their heart and it was hard for them to communicate with me and they weren't sure if I was angry or not. And finally they just came up to me just like, hey, you know, I said something earlier. Did that affect your in any way? And I was like, no, it was probably fine. Okay, good. Okay, good, good. Because I wasn't sure. And then we had some more dialogue and it created space for that. So I think if you're not sure, okay to ask and say, hey, I know I mentioned something earlier. Was that okay or was it not okay? And using that opportunity to build relationships, because I think that is also a huge part of microaggressions or mending relationships. Like when you receive a microaggression from someone that you don't know, it's really hard for you to, to know if it's intentional or not. Right. But if you've had a relationship with people, it's a lot easier for me to tap you on the shoulder to say, hey, I know this is, I know this is not what you meant because I know you and you can move forward from that.

Yeah, 100%. It's very, very strange to think about how even, even wanting to engage with somebody who is new to you because you're new in the organization or you, they're new in an organization or they're a customer you've just met or whoever it is, different departments, whatever it is, the barrier will always be there, I think. And as you're saying, even at the very, very beginning of our conversation, conflict management is something. Conflict resolution is something we all need to learn. From the time we're children even to today we're always learning about that. I think it's really key and just finish up on one really useful tool from that article. I think if you're going to get anything from that CBC article was the mention of a very, very, very useful little tool called themicopedia.org which was a, or is rather, it's a crowdsourced. So you can, you can suggest your own phrase or microaggression that you may have received and why you believe it's microaggression to add into their library of microaggressions and why. But it's, first of all, it's beautiful looking as well, which really helps to navigate the library, I suppose, of these kinds of comments. But as you read them, I certainly felt this. Anyway, when you read them you're like, oh yeah, yeah, I can see that one as being a big microaggression for sure. And I can see, I can clearly see why. But similarly also see others that you're like, oh sugar, I'm sure I've said that to somebody in the past. And now back to what Sean in his comments saying earlier. Now I'm sort of over analyzing comments that I may have made in the past and I'M thinking, am I a horrible person?

Yeah, I think, you know, it's all about learning, right? Like when you know better than you can do better. And again, it's something that we all do. Everyone commits microaggressions, even though we are all well intended and would describe ourselves as, you know, like really kind people. But I think the, the biggest thing too is learning, learning language, inclusive language. Adopting more inclusive language is a great way to sort of safeguard against, you know, those, those careless mistakes that we might make as we are engaging with people that we don't even know if we are using inclusive language. That's like we can. The culture that we've led here on this online space is going to another way, like using gender, gender neutral language when we meet people instead of saying, yes ma', am, no ma', am, if you are in the service industry, just saying, hello, how are you? There's other ways that you can adopt it in your, in your everyday speech. So I think safeguarding against that and of course translate into the workplace because what I think a lot of companies have been finding out, we can't. Like, you know, the past is the past. But as you are engaging with new people and even with your family and friends, continuing to have those conversations and also leaving space for new information, because again, as you interact with different people, what might work with one group, why not work with somebody else? And so you just have to be willing. I think that's part of allyship like you, that people are bringing their home, work, life model into the workplace and all of us. It's not about being perfect. I am not perfect even as a professional in this space. And you don't need to be perfect, you just need to be human and recognize actually what's happening is that people are not even engaging. Really. People are that we all make mistakes. But how do we move forward from those and how do we amend relationships that we need to amend and face these challenges head on and also be brave enough to come back for more? I think that is where the real power and change comes because all of us deserve some grace as we're learning. And that's part of like stepping out of our comfort zone and being in communities that we may not always engage with. Like if you're not making mistakes, then you're not doing the work. You're not, you're not stepping out. So making mistakes is a great indicator, right? Just if you're making the same mistakes, that's not a good indicator. But if you are making mistakes in general, that means you are doing the work and you are engaging in and taking risks and coming back for more. And those are the individuals that I think you will see a lot more progress in your own personal growth and in the communities and teams and organizations that you are part of. Hear, hear.

And you know what? Down with cancel culture. I completely agree, Mo. We have absolutely sped through 44 and a half minutes of this conversation. I'm stunned. I could, as we regularly say, we could probably go on for at least another hour, but I genuinely mean it. This is a fascinating conversation. At the end of every shortlist, we do ask our guests to provide us with one piece of advice to add to. Advice. Have you anything for us?

One advice for microaggressions. We can rack our brains around everything that we shouldn't or should not say all day long. Like, yes, having that education is really important, but there's always something that could be off putting to somebody. So I think the real skill, if you really want to improve on your communication and on minimize microaggressions, is to learn the skills needed for conflict resolution, number one. And also adopting some steps that you can take when you commit a microaggression. Right? The pausing and thinking, taking time to reflect and say, hey, I want to understand what you mean a little bit more. And so I'm going to take a little bit time to reflect on what you just said before I read respond like having those processes in place as an individual is, I think, more powerful than just like trying to memorize every little thing that could or could not be a microaggression in everyday life. So I would say put your energy towards learning the skills and tools needed to navigate microaggressions and I think you'll see a lot more progress in that area.

Yeah, you're right. It is conflict resolution for sure. It's the greatest form of it. But in terms of mending relationships, it's the one that will stand to you for sure. Mo, that's been brilliant. Thank you so much. This is, as I said, has been a fantastic conversation. I've learned a lot, but really, really enjoyed hearing lovely insights from this. And I hope that our listeners and viewers today have been not quite shocked into thinking that perhaps they've committed microaggressions, but certainly are inspired to learn more about them and to commit to learning more about conflict resolution, how they can add that skill to their toolkit to continue to learn and mend fences as much as they possibly can. Mo, thank you so much. That is it for another week. Of our shortlist this week. Thank you so much for joining us. We will be back next week. Jonny is back in the hot seat with Joe Gerstand, who'll be is our inclusion strategist. He's a keynote speaker and a social talent contributor and is talking about psychological safety. So tune in please on Jonny Campbell's LinkedIn or on our Social Talent YouTube channel for the live conversation which will be at 4pm GMT. That's 4pm London, Ireland time. And that is going to go back to normal as the whole world now is moving back to standard kind of summer times and the clocks are going forward again. So that will be 11am East Coast U.S. time or 8am West Coast U.S. time. That'll be on Wednesday the 30th of March of next week. And then after that I will be back with you for a few weeks and I'm really looking forward to that. While Jonny is on his holiers, I get to take over. So hopefully you enjoy some, lots of conversations over the next couple of weeks as well. Thank you so much, everybody. It's been an absolute pleasure and we'll see in a few weeks. Bye.

Taking meetings and being on zoom while they're surrounded by people. And so I think there is a lot of space and room to be able to build in, you know, conversations about how we are going to be interacting, getting people reacquainted with inclusive language again, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate as we continue to build community as well.

Yeah, 100%. And you know what, I absolutely empathize with it on a personal level as well. Coming out of this pandemic, I heard a useful and probably funny saying that we're all going to come out of this pandemic either a hunk, a chunk or a parent. I think I'm going to be two of those certainly. But it's, it is going to be a hard thing for us to suddenly go back into the office and see people face to face again and, and not be in our comfortable clothes that we would be in at home necessarily or not, you know, where we were shielding so much of our home.