Advanced Sourcing Techniques | Johnny Campbell & José Kadlec

Foreign. Well, hello and welcome. It's Wednesday, the 21st of October. It's nearly Halloween. We're not quite at our Halloween show, but I want to welcome you to the Shortlist. I'm Johnny Campbell, the host of the Shortlist and also CEO and co founder of Social Talent. And, and today we're going to talk about a topic dear to my heart, advanced sourcing techniques. Literally, Social Talent was founded off the back of advanced sourcing techniques. And our guest joining us today is somebody who recently joined the social talent platform who I think is going to take us into the future for the next generation of advanced sourcing techniques. And as someone I've got to know over the last five, six years, is a fantastic expert in this area, has just tons of knowledge and, and I'll explain why he has that knowledge and why it's so important. I'm going to share lots of that with us today, but I need your input. I'm going to ask you as our audience listening in live, for those who are listening in live to please give us your questions. Our guest is going to take your questions and give you insights and answers and share with you his knowledge and best practice. And we'll take them live on LinkedIn and YouTube and put them to our guest as we go through the show. Quick reminder, for those of you perhaps are new to the show, or if you only have a few minutes and want to come back to this, you can find out. Our entire back catalog is listed@socialtalent.com the shortlist, and you can also sign up and subscribe for our podcast. If you're not listening to this in podcast format, why not? You can listen to us on Apple, on Spotify or wherever you enjoy your podcasts. So search for the Shortlist, any of our show titles or our guest names and you'll find our back catalog there as well. You'll also find our future catalog and what's coming up next and you can register for alerts on that on our website. But back to the show. So Jose Kadlek is somebody I first met at a conference, gosh, maybe five, six years ago in the Netherlands in Amsterdam. And at the time he came up to me and he'd written a book on sourcing, introduced himself to me and gave me a bit of background on his, his, what I thought was very unique background. He has since then really built on his reputation to become literally one of Europe's premier sorcerers, somebody that a lot of people look to for, for his expertise, not just because he's Extremely smart. He's an computer engineer. Became a sourcer, which really excites me just knowing that background, but because he lives and breathes this every day. He runs with his business partner, Milan, an RPO company in the Czech Republic called Good Call. He also runs a recruitment training business called Recruiting Academy, and he has a software business that builds recruiting software for the industry. Literally, this man has enormous amount of energy and actually literally just came through Covid and didn't even know he had it because he was so goddamn busy being on podcasts, running shows, teaching people, running a business. Jose, I want to welcome you to the show. I'm so excited to have you on the show. I've been waiting to talk to someone like yourself, someone who really understands this industry and probably even better than me. And I don't say that lightly, but really lives and breathes it more than I do today. Lives and breeds the advanced sourcing techniques. Jose, welcome to the show. Maybe if you want to add some more color to our guests and maybe in your own words, just describe your own background and what makes you who you are today.

Hello, Johnny. Hello, Jonay. Yeah, I just, as you mentioned that I remembered, like, the sourcing summit in Netherlands. I remember that I was actually back then thinking, like, how to enter the global stage of sourcing. Because imagine you were there active, doing videos and content about sourcing. LinkedIn, it was kind of like, covered. It was standard. And if I remember correctly, I entered that with some kind of, like, hacking things. Totally. I utilized my computer background and took this as my advantage. And I think that's what I do, since today we are changing the industry by the application of technology and analytical approach. So, yeah.

I've always been amazed. You've bowled me over with some of the cool techniques you've demonstrated on stage, which I think really just push people to think differently about sourcing and think differently about data collection, information, how you use that. But critically, you're not just somebody who gets up and speaks. You literally have employees who need to do this on behalf of massive big multinationals every day to fill real jobs. And therefore, I think that gives you unique position to not only come up with the ideas, but really battle, test them to see if they work. So we're excited to hear what you have to offer. I know we've got guests. Catherine's online. Hey. Katherine's on YouTube watching this as well. We've got tons of people hopefully tuned in and listening, whether they're live or listening to the podcast, to hear your techniques. But before we get to your fantastic advice and your advanced sourcing techniques, Jose, it's that time of day, it's time for the news. So the first article that we wanted to kind of get your thoughts on, Jose, is this piece from Forbes. And it promises to be hopefully a great article. The Great Rehiring four Tips for Finding Great Talent after the Pandemic. What did you think of these tips?

To be honest, like, it's. It's Forbes. Yeah. So I think the tips might be a little bit vague or general. Like for example, one of the tips like use LinkedIn and reach the passive talent. Yeah, that's what we do every day. But it's not that simple. But of course, definitely there might be companies not using LinkedIn at all maybe since today. So for them it might be definitely a step up. But I think we should be talking like, what's new on the market with sourcing. Maybe companies are now not struggling with the volume of candidates. The volume might be there, you put their advertisement, but maybe you are still missing the quality. Because imagine if companies were laying off some people, maybe 10% of their headcount. Of course, you don't fire your best people in the first place. So suddenly there are more active people on the market. The volume of candidates is higher, but you are not getting your candidates which you would normally hire. So you need to use active sourcing. Again, the problem is with candidates because candidates are definitely difficult to move at the current moment because they are uncertain. They don't have the certainty that they will not be fired within the probation period, for example, so they don't want to move. So your skills as a sourcer to persuade a candidate not only to find him, but to persuade him to actually get to the interview and maybe eventually get to the company is definitely more demanding. Plus of course, we are now living more in kind of like online way, so all the interviews online and so on. But we can say that a lot of companies already changed, like the mindset that they are able to hire people actually without seeing them face to face. But there are still companies which require to see the candidate face to face before that, which of course for us it's a problem because imagine I'm sitting now in Prague here, by tomorrow we have a strict lockdown and it will be like difficult, actually, literally difficult to move the people. On the other hand, we see because Good Call started as a sourcing business since day one. We started as, let's say, one recruiter plus Milan, he was a recruiter back then as well. And something like five, six sourcers. So actually more sourcers than recruiters. That was our initial setup. But what you can see right now that there is this trend of RPO of renting sourcers, renting recruiters on site, off site or for example creating logistics shortlist. So suddenly we call it like flexible recruitment and companies because they are uncertain as well. Not candidates only, but companies as well. They rather hire for example a recruiter for three days a week to cover the whole recruitment from for example some basic roles up to the managerial roles or some more complex roles. And they have, they have the certainty that they can for example release this, this contract the next month when for example there is lockdown or the business goes down. So I think RPO definitely in today's and we can see that from, from our numbers, it's, it's definitely there when we speak about active candidates. Definitely more candidates on the market. So I think there is a chance for sourcers to approach candidates more with like inbound sourcing techniques. We can start with some like posts, writing articles, anything what's inbound related. But what we can see, we for example work from Microsoft where Microsoft, they want to hire a lot of salespeople and they had in Australia this model of business that hiring for example hundred people of this sort who would be selling ERP systems and so on in the Czech Republic, it's like heavy number. You are not able just to sit to LinkedIn, Facebook, anywhere else and to hire them with the active methods. So what we are doing that we started Microsoft Academy and we are kind of luring and we are paying traffic actually Microsoft is paying the traffic to get the people on this platform and from the platform we are hiring those people and suddenly we already have already a few people already hired. And it's working in this way. But what's the problem for you or for the company doing this that suddenly you are going from recruitment or sourcing and you are in E commerce business, you are selling some academy, you are in a social talent business but for the purpose of recruitment. So these new skills not only for individual sourcers but for the overall business might be there. I was just consulting with Tato company, they are doing a lot of business in Finland and so on, like banking and so on. And they need to hire a lot of Java engineers. But the problem is that they have a branch in some smaller city here in the Czech Republic. So they started Java Bootcamp and that's the same story because they need to influence the new graduates to actually start with Java. So they have any possible chance to hire them later on as their employees. But suddenly I'm going to pause it.

Because, wow, just a huge amount to unpack.

Right.

Like, you've just thrown like hours worth of advice there at about six minutes. Right. I want to just try to unpack it for a second and take your last point and bring us on to our second news item in just a second. But I think your first point is excellent analogy is, you know, we always talk about needle in a haystack in sourcing. And whether you agree with that analogy or not, I think you know to your first point, there's the same amount of needles in very few. And they're just more haystacks. That's the market we live in that because there's so many more applicants, active candidates. The needles are harder to find because you're. They're hidden under more haystacks. And now the needles don't want to leave the haystack. They're. They're more afraid to leave the haystack. And that's what presents brand new challenges for sorcerers. I did love your point on how you're. You're approaching in that kind of volume environment, then you're approaching sourcing, not from a traditional. Just to keep hunting for needles. You find a magnet and I love that you kind of get the haystacks got bigger. Same end of needles. Let's just get a powerful magnet. And that brings us on to our second story. Right. I want to maybe just get it shared on screen there from Niall, but this is another story from Entrepreneur Europe. Struggling to hire top talent, change the way you recruit. This company, I think, described doing something that's not dissimilar to what you did. They've gone to a different market. They've decided to change where they normally look. And they've. They've not quite done this exact same thing, but they've. They've used education to basically upscale a group of people so not just attract them, but to upskill them and then make them ready for the job. Talk to me about this method and maybe then maybe expand a little bit more on the big magnet method that you're using for sourcing. So what do you think, first of all of this article and this method that was being discussed by Infosys and how they're finding talent and maybe take that back to the example you just gave me.

I think that the bottom line of this article was actually about like reskilling, upskilling of those people. There are a lot of. I think one Company they got funded that they are preparing like reskilling sabbaticals for their employees. So instead of firing them, we can put them to this sabbatical. They reskill. But I think yes, like the idea is perfect. But I think sometimes in practice the reskilling doesn't work because you are not able to reskill just somebody to be a programmer and so on. So sometimes the reskilling of the talent might be quite difficult. And I was just talking with a friend of mine, they are doing a lot of these AI things and they are really changing the market where they suddenly fire 40 quality engineers from the factory. And now it's a question like what to do with those people. They will probably not become AI engineers, which would be the skill actually this company would be needing at the moment. So I think definitely Infosys did a great job on utilizing, as they mentioned, a cheaper talent, 25% cheaper. And it was also about that the skills are getting obsolete. That's definitely true. You are studying four years somewhere and then your education might be obsolete. Even if I think that the basic fundamentals and principles will actually never die. If you study for example math or algorithms or programming, then of course maybe it's a question that if you are an older programmer, you programmed in cobol, now you are programming in Python, but the principle is the same and you can use the math mathematics somewhere else. When you are AI engineer, suddenly there is a demand for this AI workforce. You can actually still as AI engineer you need to be skilled in for example programming because it's like underneath. So that's definitely true. And people can move faster in the learning curve. And we can actually see that with talent sources as well. Imagine like what's the skill set of the today's talent sourcer. They need to search for candidates, so they need to be skilled in searching. They need to gather the information about the candidates, so it's kind of searching as well. Then they need to do approaching. So they need to find how to approach the candidates, how to find an email, telephone number, how to put the message across. They need to be skilled with like being on the phone with the candidates, like what to put into the message, how to call with the candidates. They need to be skilled with handhunting. Maybe they need to be skilled with automation inbound sourcing many skills. And you want that all those skills from the one person. That's why we are thinking, for example, and we were already started, that we are breaking down the talent sourcer into smaller chunks where for example, there will Be sourcers doing just searching. Because that's more like. I would say that's more like it. Knowledge Boolean search and these kind of, this kind of logic where for example approaching candidates being good on the phone, it can be older person where we are touching on the diversity where you can for example hire a 50 plus year old lady or man. And of course this person will probably not be good with LinkedIn but this person may be good on the phone doing these things. So you can be more, if I want to use the word like agile, that's probably agile. Sourcing might be the term. But it's really, really, really difficult to find a talent sourcer who's great with all of these aspects. It's almost impossible because it's crazy because.

It used to be a case people say it's hard to find a recruiter who's kind of really good at all the aspects. So we broke out sourcing from other parts of recruiting. But now you're saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, we're breaking out sourcing into its distinctive functions and tasks, dividing up the labor and looking at who's best. And again, you know, different opportunities. Maybe the 50 plus person is brilliant at sourcing, but maybe the young person is putting engagement. Of course it could go either way but I love the idea that you're kind of going find a person who's really good at a part of it. And if you have volume, which to your point about or PO and large recruiting teams you have volume, it justifies you having specialists at each part of the funnel. Have you seen operational throughput increase? Have you seen the productivity gains of that already?

We are testing that. Definitely we are testing that just we started with one team in it was actually not it but a commercial division. But imagine this for example, for example with the automation you realize sooner or later that not all of your sourcers will be actually on the same level. So you have the best sourcer. The best sourcer knows for example different type of automation tools, he can work with that and so on. But other sources it will be I would say like overhead for them actually even to teach it to educate them in this skill. So you have no other chance that this person good with automation will be doing just the automation and helping others. So one person is creating long lists and other person is taking the long list and doing for example the approaching. Another person is taking the shortlist from that for example and doing some more photo screening. It might be like that. So definitely I can say that we are pretty Good with the benchmarks since we started because we over that six years we already hired many, many sources and even the growth was quite rapid, which I believe that's also the main reason of the business model. There are not so many companies here in central and Eastern Europe who would be working in this business model. Sourcers. Like many sourcers and less recruiters. Usually there are companies having recruiters and few sourcers. This is not a sourcing model for me.

And tell me if I'm a sourcer. Listening to you today, Jose, talk to me about strategy. What are the basics around what I need to have organized when I'm thinking about my sourcing strategy? What is your advice to a source or experienced sourcer or someone starting out around. Around strategy?

Sure. I think like I usually and we here at good code, we usually stick to, I would say three step strategy. The first point is to maximize long lists. Even if you will not utilize the whole long list, you should be able as a sourcer to know how many people. If I'm hiring, I don't know lawyers, for example, I should be able to know how many lawyers are there and I should be able to actually get to all of those lawyers because maybe it will be a difficult client, maybe difficult hiring manager, difficult role, difficult position. So maybe the response from the candidates will not be ideal as you would expect. And you never know how many people you will need to get approach to get that one hire. We for example, know here that we need to approach about 70 people to get that one hire. Of course this is a mixture of it and non it or let's say like also like engineering, automotive and so on. It's everything altogether. Finance, marketing, tech and so on. It's 70. Of course, when you are a company hiring just in software development, you will most likely be having over 100 approach candidates paired at one hire. I know companies here for example, who are having this 300 approach candidates to get at one hire. Obviously that's IT company. So it's as you can see, it's quite a lot of work. So you need to have that long list on a maximum, which is I would say almost like a mindset working with what we can call exhaustive sourcing or exhaustive searching.

Are you saying like you get to 70 or 100 before you contact a single person? Or what do you mean by focusing on the long list?

When I'm creating the long list, I create the long list and I put there for example 600 people. Even if I know that when I approach, for example, first 100, then I will get that higher. But I should be able to know even like if I will be reporting to a manager, how many potential candidates are there on the market. Which means also like what's the probability that we will actually fill the role? Or for example the company Theato they mentioned they need to hire 40 Java developers. So imagine 40 times, maybe 150. Are there enough people even like theoretically on the market, which you can eventually approach to get those hires. So maybe then you will approach 70 people, you will get that one higher. But you can report to the manager, There are other 500 people we could possibly approach if that's necessary. And of course for this, the exhaustive searching where you need to work, like if I speak practically, it's of course about keywords, but I would almost say that it's about doing more simplistic searches. Instead of searching for software tester, you should be rather searching for tester only because with software tester you are limiting your search. As well as when you are searching for verification engineer or validation engineer. I would use just verification or validation because the person might be verification engineer or verification specialist or verification whatever else. Location, it's quite crucial. Now there are changes in LinkedIn with the location. A lot of people, they don't use for example a city as their location. So if you are sourcing people in Dublin, there will be definitely many for example engineers or candidates in Dublin, but they don't have Dublin zip code or a city on their profile. You need to be exhaustive with location to get to those people. But the perfect thing is that you are actually increasing your competitive edge by doing this because you are getting to people you can have actually more exclusively for you. Yeah, because if you did this extra mile and no other companies or sources, recruiters are able to do that, you will have those candidates more exclusively for you. You will be actually more exclusive for them as well because they don't receive five invitations a day. Maybe they receive just one or none because simply their profile is not good enough.

So you're picking the fruit from the top of the tree, not just the low hanging fruit, essentially. A couple of questions if you don't mind me throwing them at you. So we've, we've a question here from Gary, who's asking, is having specialists in each part of the sourcing process a more expensive option? Back to a point you made a few minutes ago that you guys are testing, is that more expensive? I'm guessing not, because why would you do it?

Of course it also depends if you are agency if you are like in house, how you actually, how you actually like budget it. But we don't, we, we are just starting with this process. So we don't have it in large scale. But of course the math behind it should be that it's actually more. Even if there might be like more people, it's more efficient. Imagine that with for example the people doing long lists, one person can actually supply to four different teams because creating long list is quite, it's quite fast in one day that one person can supply, can supply more teams with the long list and being improving the long list on the fly. Where of course approaching is more time demanding part. So of course you still need for example when you are hiring marketing people still in the team, for example there will be two other sources doing the screening but the time for long listing will be for example just a quarter of time of some shared resource supplying for more teams. So of course our goal as well as our goal is to be efficient. That's like budget efficient as well of course not only time efficient and so on.

So it's probably not, it's not guaranteed. You have to do it right, you have to scale it properly. But in theory it should be.

This is also like a question like having for example having like a sourcing cup of sourcers. So imagine that you can have like a hub of five sourcers supplying more locations. Or is it better to have like in house? Yeah, it's, it's also dependent type of roles, the volume of roles you are doing and so on. It's not that simple. You need to, you need to calculate it.

We have a good question from Paul Davis. He's asking Jose, in Your opinion, is LinkedIn the main go to when sourcing or is this just a learned bad habit that we all have?

Like to be honest, when I check for example our source of hire at our database we can see that of course now it will be probably like 60% it will be data crew with our internal database. But when I would go deeper where those people, how those people landed in our database it will be still something like for example 60, 70% LinkedIn and we do mid and higher positions. So I know that there are a lot of like people saying things like you need to go beyond LinkedIn. Probably not. I would say my advice, like don't be romantic about how you hire employees. Maybe LinkedIn. Yeah, it's too boring now. It's not that cool. Maybe you would like to hire Those people on TikTok but simply check the stats Check the numbers and you will see maybe LinkedIn is the way to go. Because of course when I break it down, we have our mobile app as well. Of course there are roles where we go to Facebook and so on. But still like the major number is still LinkedIn. So don't be afraid to say yes, I'm hiring mainly on LinkedIn, but hiring on LinkedIn, it's not black and white. It's not like Boolean 0 or 1. You can do it, you can do it on average. You can do it in a good way, great way, in a bad way. It's about other tools you combine with LinkedIn. So it's not that simple. If our sourcer, if some of our sourcer is telling me like I searched LinkedIn for this role, it's not black and white, you need to tell me like how exactly what did you do? That's why we are doing a checklist at Good call where you can actually audit to the back what the sourcer actually did. And if there is a new sourcer, he can learn from these checklists and he can start from some checkpoint and improve for example the search queries and not starting from the scratch.

So we mentioned automation a couple of times. A lot of people have been talking for several years, right? It gets louder every year about technology, replacing, sourcing, our parts of the process. And you already mentioned how you broke it up. Is there any interesting tech out there that you've seen or used or you're currently using as you want to share with or you're interested in? You can share with our audience that you think that's one to watch or here's a practical tool that is viable or this type of thing can work to deliver some or all of the sourcing functions.

I think when we speak about automation and automation, maybe it's already too boring. Now it's AI, AI, machine learning and so on. But we can start from the basics. We can start from the things that for example, you can use, for example plugins like ProPet where you can open for example someone's Facebook profile and you can immediately see if the person is on LinkedIn or Twitter as well. And you have a shortcut right to the profile. Because imagine our sourcers are doing this on everyday basis. They approach hundreds and screen hundreds of people every day. We know that, for example, a good sourcer at our company, they need to do three to four telephone screens per day to deliver those results. So they do everything in bulk. So just saving one minute per screening of someone's profile Will actually save you a lot of time in the long run. So such like for example Propad or in LinkedIn Connectifier social links. Now there are some problems with this plugin because LinkedIn changed the design and probably the plugin hasn't adjusted yet. But Connectifier Social Links perfect plugin. When you open someone's LinkedIn profile and you can see in the bottom right corner other social media for this person. That's for me automation as well. That's production automation of some process as well. Of course then we go sorry, no.

Go on, keep going please.

Then we can go to things like for example email sequencing. We use for example Mixmax, you can use Lemlist and normally you would be doing follow ups how it starts manually so you sent email and you say okay, in four days I should follow up this candidate. So I will put a note into my calendar. But Suddenly you have 100 notes in your calendar that you should do these follow ups. So you can use for example some semi autom automatic way and actually I'm describing this in, in the course automation at the social talent platform as well. And you can put there for example in the follow up then.com like a semi manual note and you will be notified after four days. Or you can use mixmax or Lemlist where you do the full sequencing that you schedule three different emails. You can put their gaps between those emails. And when someone, when the candidate actually replied to your message, the candidate will be cut out of this loop and other messages will not be sent to him as well. So then of course now quite popular LinkedIn automation things like Phantom Buster, things like LinkedIn helper. LinkedIn helper currently has the the new version number two which is the desktop version. And you can create workflows so you can create actually sequencing. You can send invitation when the invitation is accepted, you can send other message. Then you can do something else. And it's kind of like, let's say it's kind of a neat, neat software. Everything is nicely done and you can create a different kind of campaigns within one account. For example. Of course people with automation they usually think like, for example CV parsing. But we tried this several times and for example for us we tried it, we tested with 20,000 plus CVs and it didn't work out. There are a lot of glitches still. Maybe it's a language ping, maybe in English, it works fine in other local languages. Maybe it's because usually AI is about a thing that it needs to learn from some data and then it can replicate it to the future. But when you have weak data, AI cannot learn that. So, for example, CV parsing, it didn't work. Of course, you know that there are a lot of tools and they kind of try to evaluate candidates, but I think it's really, really difficult to. For example, Amazon.com they have the whole process kind of like automated. You apply and everything is automated. You actually get fired. Automated by a robot without actually seeing anyone. Right. But this psychology evaluation, evaluation based on the video, from the video interviewing software and so on, I think it's going. It's definitely going. I think definitely the evolution, the curve of the evolution, it's really exponential. And for the past two or three years, it's really better even for. I can mention like two startups, both are actually Czech startups. For example, complication like this, I think in one of those articles, it was also about hiring people abroad, remote communication and so on. One tool, it's called around dot Co, like a round around co. And it's more like simulating. It's. It's like this, it's. It's like video conference tool, but it's more sophisticated. Including. Including things like there is no echo and so on. There is AI that it's taking just your face. So regardless what your background is, how you move, it's still getting your face, but it's on top of your apps. So you can be working in Google Chrome or maybe in some spreadsheets. And you will see, that's why it's called round. You will see, just for example, three rounds and those will be your colleagues. So it's like simulating that. You are sitting next to each other in the office.

They float over your class.

Yeah, yeah, you can get to the waiting list. It's not like ready yet, but again.

You give me a huge long list there and a pause here. And Isabel Blumerk is asking, can you share your checklist with us if we don't have it already? It's, it's, you know, we'll absolutely get that as a blog. Isabelle, there's tons of advice. You're probably scribbling away trying to get it all down. Promise we'll put it out as a blog. And if you're a social user, Jose's new courses are going have. Some have gone live. More go live in the next few weeks as well with all of those tips. Chris Jennings just had a couple of comments I wanted just to call out for you. Joseph one, you know, and he's agreeing with you here. Why wouldn't LinkedIn be the next place to visit after your own database? Sourcing is about going to the obvious place first, then going from there. But an interesting follow up point he made is that for diverse hiring, maybe you should be looking outside your normal go to places to reach diverse talent pools. Is this something that you've seen with your teams, that you have requests to say find more diverse talent, whatever diverse looks like the need is. And when you're approaching looking for diverse talent who you don't really expect to necessarily be on the same platforms, or maybe they are, maybe that's, maybe that's a misnomer. Maybe diverse talent is. Is on the same platforms, but it's harder to find. What has been your experience in terms of sourcing for diverse talent?

Like to be honest, imagine the Czech Republic before COVID 1.9% unemployment rate. We were actually struggling to find anybody on the market, so we were not doing diverse at all. If I say this way, imagine that was the second lowest unemployment rate in the world. But of course I think it also quite differs country to country because somewhere the problem might be some of our clients, for example, they aim for gender diversity. That is probably the main diversity diversity like age and so on. So definitely I wouldn't say that it's like primarily a question of the platform. Of course when we say like on TikTok there are teenagers, we don't use it for sourcing it like just a quote. But we cannot say like going to Facebook. We will find a different people than we can find on LinkedIn. Of course the group is slightly different, but practically for our roles it doesn't work that way. So when we need to look, when we need to look more and search more for women, it really is not like platform dependent. You just need to know how to search for women on LinkedIn, which is not like there's no button women. So you need for example, work with names, something like that. That's probably the only way how you can do that.

It did come up, it was one of the articles earlier. I forgot to mention it. There was a point around diversity and a piece of advice in the article which I thought resonated with me because I've seen it from so many other teams that when you talk about a more inclusive approach to sourcing and doing more diverse sourcing is start with the diversity of your team and it can be much easier if you've got a diverse source team. So let's say the diversity of the team represents the diversity you want to see in the Business, they will more likely not guaranteed, but more likely just know how to not not only find more diverse talent in more, more perhaps either the same places or different places, but also how to approach them. Because you know, if you start with diversity in your own teams, your recruiting or sourcing team, that extends to the ability to source diversity. Whereas if you have a homogenous sourcing team and you ask them to be more diverse in their sourcing, it can be a real challenge because they're homogeneous, they have the same experience, the same backgrounds and will look in the same places. Sometimes you solve the diversity sour sourcing challenge by making your team more diverse in the first place and then saying go find, go find people and they will just do it differently. Question here, by the way, question coming from YouTube. You know, how much recruitment do you think is taking place on job boards? Job portals like Monster or Nakri in India versus LinkedIn. What's your take on the spread? You advocated certainly for LinkedIn as being a great source. How does that compare, do you think, to the traditional job boards? Maybe the CV and resume databases in particular of those job boards?

Of course, it's a question how to calculate it. It's also about the unemployment rate. For us, for example, the job portals, it didn't work at all because for the roles you were hiring, we didn't have, let's say any CVs. Now of course, times may be different, at least for a temporary period of time. And I know that, for example, some accounting companies now were actually reporting to me that they are able to hire for example, auditors from big four of companies like apmg, Deloitte and so on from job advertising, which was totally unbelievable before COVID Now it's possible. So definitely, probably now it's not our strategy. For example, when we tested, because LinkedIn they also had the platform for jobs we tested a couple of times, didn't work. And that's also like the purpose of what we do because we don't want to you as a company, I mean like in house company can put their advertisement, we don't need to duplicate their work. So we are using alternative channels. And our spiel, which is the active sourcing, right. So 90% of what we do is active sourcing plus different kind of campaigns and so on. But it's not your portals. But definitely I would recommend everybody or any company just to try it, try to put it there and you will see what actually the output is, volume, quality. And of course, for example, on LinkedIn you will get for example, a lot of people from abroad you are sometimes maybe not even able to hire. It's not your desired workforce. But LinkedIn is done in a way that anybody can apply to any job. So I would definitely try it.

I would like to throw in some comments particularly around the Nakri comment in India. Nakri people are addicted to searching on Nakri and using in the CPU database. Indeed have actually a pretty powerful platform in India that's free to search. And I did several tests with groups and found that indeed was as powerful, if not more powerful as a CV database with unique talent. And again, you just change up the keywords to your point around search for different things in the same place and you'll find different results. And we had good success or look at the two year old resumes and then predict what they might be doing now. And I found that to be to be super helpful. But I think the comments you made at the very start of the show is really, really poignant here, Jose, which is don't just run an ad and attract somebody, think of something else. And to your point, you tried it with Microsoft, which is you advertise training courses which attracted the right type of person and then they enrolled and that gave you a talent pool. It's just thinking about days in a different. You need to connect with different.