Attracting and enabling employees with disabilities | with Yasmin Sheikh

Hello, everybody, and you're very welcome to this week's edition of Social Talents, the Shortlist. I am Holly Fawcett. I'm the Director of Content here at Social Talent and I am going to be taking over the Social Talent Shortlist hot seat for the next three weeks while our CEO is on vacation. I am Social, incredibly jealous, but it's taken so much time off and I shall also be taking time off straight after that. Anyway, not going to be too jealous about it. This week's topic is something that I'm actually really eager to talk to my good friend with Yasmin Sheikh. So today's topic is about attracting and enabling employees with disabilities, because I think from a. From a De and I conversation, disability is often seen as a very poor relation and something that hasn't really taken a lot of focus, unfortunately, with organizations and when agendas are put forward to hire more diverse talent or create work environments that really cater to people from underrepresented backgrounds. So very often those with both visible and unseen disabilities find themselves at the bottom of this list. But to ignore this cohort is to ignore a whole pool of talent with skills and abilities that can really help organizations to prosper and grow. So, on this week's edition of the Shortlist, we are welcoming Yasmin Shaikh to the show. Yasmin is a TEDx speaker and founder of Diverse Matters and will be speaking to us about disability inclusion in the workplace. We'll be diving into her own personal story as well as looking at topics around recruitment and the interview process, adjustments in the workplace and the language of disability as well. So, Yasmin, you are so very, very welcome to the show. Hello.

Hello, Holly. Lovely to be here. Thank you for welcoming me.

Can you share a little bit about yourself, about your company as well, and what it is that you do?

Sure. So, I'm the founder of Diverse Matters, which is a training consultancy to give confidence to organisations in relation to diversity issues in the workplace, but really specialising in disability inclusion in the workplace because that's my personal experience and expertise. I'm a former lawyer and I'm also vice chair of Lawyers With Disabilities Division at the Law Society of England and Wales.

Awesome. So how long have you been a former lawyer for?

I qualified in 2003. Had to think about that one. Yeah, I was working at a city law firm for 12 years, practicing in personal injury law. Would you believe it, being a wheelchair user. There's an irony there.

And what do you see now that you're now a former lawyer and now Working on a consulting side, specialising in disability. What do you see as some of the obstacles that organisations are coming into place? Maybe they were obstacles that you similarly faced yourself. But what do companies tend to find is the barrier to welcoming employees with a disability?

Well, barriers for organisations or for individual disabled people?

Well, let's start with organisations first, I suppose.

Yeah. I think what a lot of organisations don't realise is they already have disabled people working there. And I think it's how we think about disability. Disability is very broad. It's not just sticks in wheelchairs. In fact, 97% of disabilities are non visible. And also one in five of us will have a disability during our working life. I am the classic disabled person, if you like being a wheelchair user. But it's a very small percentage of people with visible disabilities. Under the Equality act, which is UK legislation, it can cover visible and non visible disabilities, which could include dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism, diabetes, chronic fatigue, depression. So we have people in our organisations already with these types of different disabilities, but they may not identify as such. But it's the way we talk about disability. Cancer is classed as a disability in UK legislation. One in two of us will say we've got cancer in our lifetime, according to Cancer Research uk. So this is not a minority issue, it's a majority issue. And with COVID as well, we're talking about health and impairment so much more. So it's a really relevant subject for organisations to get involved with. But I think the resistance is sometimes, oh, but we don't have any disabled people. And the way we talk about it is talking about other people, it's not to do with us. And I think that sometimes creates barriers in terms of attitudinal barriers, in terms of retaining and recruiting disabled talent.

So in terms of the individuals who do have a disability within an organisation already, or perhaps they want to apply to work in an organisation, what do you feel? Or do you know, maybe even if it's anecdotal, I suppose, with different research that you've undertaken, why do individuals not tell their employer that they have a disability? That they keep it unseen?

Yeah. Oh, lots of reasons, I think. As I said, I'm vice chair of Lawyers with Disabilities Division for the Law Society of England and Wales and we carried out some research with Cardiff University called Legally Disabled, and you can just Google Legally Disabled and you'll find the research, the findings, findings and the recommendations to improve disability inclusion in the workplace. And we found there were lots of really interesting findings, but a Lot of the time people don't want to share their disability. I like to use the word share rather than disclose because it suggests it's shrouded in secrecy and it's something we should be ashamed of. But a lot of the time the onus is always on the disabled person or the person with the health condition or impairment to. To share. And they may have had prejudice in the past or people worry about being discriminated against and it's really for the organisation to be open on their website. Is it accessible? Do they talk about reasonable adjustments? It's always this onus on the disabled person to ask about accessibility and adjustments. But it should just be normalised. There should be information on. On the Internet about it. We should ask all candidates. This is what the legally disabled research made a recommendation. When we normalise these kinds of conversations and ask everybody at recruitment and appraisal stage, do you need an adjustment to do your job, to thrive at work? It avoids that special status, that stigma for disabled people and it just. Excuse my son shouting in the background there, working. It normalizes these conversations so that people feel this is an organization that actually just talks about it openly and that takes away some of the fear that people may have that they may be prejudice.

Oh.

I can see someone coming in. Oh, wait, sorry, my son has walked in.

Take your time. You're always so Yasmin. I'd like to pivot ever so slightly towards our news stories. Every week on our shortlist, we discuss two or three news articles that have been in the press, which talks about the topic that we talk about each week. And there's two articles that we want to bring to everyone's attention today. The first is from an online paper, the City From New York. The headline is, Unemployment Soars for New Yorkers with Disabilities as Challenges Outweigh New Opportunities. And this article, I'll put the link into the show notes for the podcast or live into the chat if you're watching live on LinkedIn or live on YouTube. This article is. It makes for really difficult reading, I have to say, because the statistics that it's coming out with for such a cosmopolitan city that we think about when we think about New York, where in 2021, 17% of working age people in New York City with a disability were unemployed, and that was up from 7.4% in 2019. So a 10 percentage bump in in people who are disabled, with, without, who are now unemployed. And I think it's a very difficult thing to really break down. Obviously, there may be some more like nuanced information within those types of statistics as to why people have become unemployed or have opted out of the workplace. But really it does kind of paint a very bleak picture about, as I said, a very cosmopolitan city like New York, where funding has been completely slashed for programs to support people with a disability and organizations who wish to employ them as well, where state funding is going to be slashed down to just 88 cent per person with a disability for 2022. So in a more global context, obviously you're speaking from the perspective of Europe and more particularly from the uk. Is this the lack of funding? Is it kind of felt worldwide? Is it just an American anomaly or what's your sense of this, this massive bump in unemployment for people with a disability?

I can only speak for the uk and I know a lot of people may not realise that the average extra cost for disabled people in The UK is 570 pounds a month. And those additional costs include things like specialist equipment or alterations to your home. It could be increased transportation costs. I note in the article, when people get a chance to read that, is that in the article it states that barely a quarter of New York subway stations are compliant with the Americans With Disabilities Act. So people can't even physically get into their own city sometimes because of transportation is inaccessible, which means an extra cost. So, you know, if funding is being slashed, where do you get that extra money from? In the uk, we have Access to work, which is part of the government scheme, which is known as the best kept secret in the government because it actually provides funding for adjustments. For example, in my situation, I had to travel into the city for work and the underground is largely inaccessible for a wheelchair user. So access to work paid for taxi costs to and from work, which again removed a barrier for me, because being physically, you'd be exhausted by the time you got into work to find a longer route to get in which is accessible. They also pay towards my super light wheelchair as well. So I can only speak from a UK experience, that funding is still there, access to work. And the funding is quite generous actually, so it's worth organisations looking into that. I mean, my firm was an international law firm, but still, Access to Work were able to provide that funding and remove that barrier for me, which made it easier for me to return to the workplace.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think even in the context of, you know, physically traveling to a workplace, being that an office or a store or warehouse or whatever, or a site, whatever the place might be, you know, that kind of work obviously still happens, but the the one, I suppose, positive thing about this global pandemic is that working from home has now become a really normal thing, which I'm going to make a big assumption here, that it is now a positive for people who have a disability to work from home, that they kind of feel they're not asking for special status. So therefore work from home, because everyone's working from home. How has that been in reality? Am I assuming right?

Yeah. So you are. Interestingly again, the legally disabled research looked at this and surveyed people during the pandemic. And interestingly, the most requested and refused reasonable adjustment pre pandemic was home working and flexible work. We have a pandemic and you know, it's now a mainstream concern. Most people, if they had an office job, certainly in the legal industry, which is where, you know, a lot of my clients work, we were all working from home. And the majority of the respondents in the survey, in fact 70%, said that homeworking has been hugely beneficial. You're able to manage your disability more effectively at home. You avoid traveling in and again, if it's largely inaccessible, it's tiring even before you get to the office. You can do things at your own pace. You don't have to slot into kind of an ableist, traditional way of working. And actually it suits a lot of people, generally people who may have caring responsibilities, not just for disabled people. But what the research also highlighted is we cannot make an assumption that all disabled people obviously refer to work in this way. There are still some challenges working from home. The isolation, you know, we may not have. I'm lucky I've got my own office space that some people are flat sharing or if you're hearing impaired and you have, you're relying on lip reading, perhaps face to face is better, you know, so there's still issues there. But on the whole, a lot of disabled people certainly benefited. And, and actually it's interesting, you know, homeworking was seen before as, oh, you know, people would say, oh, part time workers or you're not really working effectively. I don't know about you, Holly. I've never worked so hard in my life being at home because the boundaries are blurred, you know, everything, it's all consuming, isn't it? Even my son's coming in on the action on my.

And we definitely welcome him on. Can't, I can't disagree with that in the slightest. I mean that that hour long commute that I would have taken into work personally has now been subsumed into, well, I can just do my work now. So Instead of working a traditional eight hour work day, it's now stretched into a ten hour work day with very, very little time for lunch. I don't know how you feel about that as well. Lunch is really like a, oh, I'll eat that at my desk. So dining Aldesco has definitely been solidified in my office, at my, in my kitchen, which doesn't help. I want to move into the next article then, which was from cnbc, why technology accessibility is key for disability inclusion at work. Because I think this article is quite useful in understanding how we can support individuals who want to work remotely or who want to work from the office, how we can use technology to support them in a range of different ways. Great key statistic coming out from this, which is holy, you know, wholly different from the first article from, from the city was that 77% of workers with disabilities have said that their employer has done a better job supporting them since the pandemic has started. And this article offers, you know, as I said, a slightly more promising look, but really that's because technology accessibility has been there to, to do that. What kind of technology accessibility adjustments can be made for, for people with a range of disabilities out there? Can you give me some ideas what they might be?

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a huge expert in technology. There are other organizations that specialize in that. AbilityNet I think is one of them UK based. But you know, we're now doing a lot of online meetings, aren't we, and thinking about asking everybody at the start what access or adjustment needs do you have? So someone who's hearing impaired may need the live captioning screen reading for people who are visually impaired or blind. These are some very simple measures that can be put in place. But the point is, ask everybody at the start of meetings in person and online, what adjustments do you need? But there are experts out there who will specialise in the technology. It's not something I specialise in, but it's at least asking the question. But yes, they can be life changing for people to the ability to do their, their work if the technology is there. This is the thing about disabled people, they sometimes just need to do things differently. You know, we, we're not all the same and I always say to treat people equally, we sometimes have to treat them differently. And technology is just a tool that we can use to enable people to, to do the best job that they can do.

Yeah. I mean, Spectacles, for example, is a technology that we readily accept in the workplace as being a prerequisite for anybody who has, who needs glasses, who need some, some support with their, with their eyesight. I think about actual, like a. Think about a traditional meeting that we would have held in an in person office. Maybe it's in a boardroom, for example, and you have a range of people who have different support needs, you know, and just how would, how an in person meeting actually is so inaccessible. You know, we use a whiteboard, for example, so we're scribbling down with very poor handwriting. Usually we're not school teachers and we haven't perfected how to write on a big whiteboard. And that whiteboard can't be seen by somebody who's visually impaired or who needs glasses necessarily. You know, you've got people all along a long desk. Sometimes the lighting isn't great. So lip reading for anybody who's hearing impaired perhaps won't be there. So live captioning certainly can support that if it's, if it's in a virtual meeting. Somebody who has dyslexia, for example, maybe find that being in a different part of the meeting or supporting it in a different way would actually be more beneficial. Somebody who has ADHD, who's, who needs to be moving, you know, they can, they can do that when they're working from home, I think because zoom enables them to just like you can, you can be stimming whatever way you need to with a fidget spinner or whatever thing that they require in order to support them. Whereas in the before times, which I constantly refer to, in the before times, you know, if somebody was using a fidget spinner or was on their phone, something like that, we would have thought that was the height of disrespect, you know, that they're fidgeting, that they can't concentrate, they can't just sit still when actually that's what somebody needs in order to, to listen and participate.

Yeah, I'm thinking those, perhaps on the neurodiversity spectrum that autistic people may, you know, struggle in an open plan office, for example, with the bright lights and the sensory overload, noise cancellation, earphones, or perhaps working from home is more suitable for autistic people. So, you know, there's lots of adjustments we can make. But homeworking definitely has, has its benefits as well, particularly for disabled people.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean in terms of the, the likes of, you know, for for example, people who are on the autistic spectrum, disorder and have different support needs, people who have that range of disabilities. I think when we discussed at the Very beginning of the show about what, what constitutes a disability in the eyes of legislation and therefore what organizations are, because of the legislation, you know, required to support, you know, representation I think is really key here that we understand who is in our organizations and that they feel comfortable enough to share information with their colleagues and with their employer, but really that we actually build inclusivity for people with disabilities. We design for them universally from the very beginning. Even if you might not have somebody with a disability, whether it's something we traditionally think of as a disability or not, how important do you think representation is in boosting this kind of progress on the, on this front from technology?

Oh, it's huge. I mean, there's a saying I'm sure those who are in the diversity and inclusion world have heard, if you see it, then you, you can be it, you believe you can be it. And role models are essential. And I think in my experience, when senior people speak openly about some of their challenges, share vulnerabilities, perhaps a disability or some experience, it sends a big message to the rest of the organisation that, you know, it's okay to talk about these things and people have got somebody that they can look up to and they have a role model. Again, the legally disabled research picked up on the value of role models. And feeling disabled may be a very individual experience, but the data demonstrated that it's usually possible to identify common barriers. So disabled people are very diverse, but usually there's common barriers. And if we can speak about those openly and share that experience, that's invaluable for people. And the respondents also in the survey, when they were asked what contributed to positive experiences at work, they cited visibility of other disabled people in the working environment in their top four. So this really does matter, senior people. And I remember I worked with a law firm recently and there was a partner who had a hearing impairment. And she has until, you know, very recently, for 20 odd years, she never told anybody at work, she never told any clients because such was the shame that she felt, she thought her clients may judge her. And I said, you realise when you speak about this openly, if you can't even talk about it, how do you think your junior members feel? That of course you've got to the top. So that message is really important. And I don't think senior leaders sometimes realise the power that they have and that platform that they really can make a difference when they talk about it openly. But sometimes people fear that shame and stigma that it's very hard for people to talk about, but it does Make a huge difference when we. It can change cultures when we start talking about it openly 100%.

I mean, if nothing else, I know from personal experience, I don't have a disability, but it's a. At the very beginning of this pandemic, when we all suddenly realized we're all working from home and we all have families we need to take care of at the. The same time, families and children, particularly for very senior men, was something that didn't really get much visibility. But suddenly it was like, oh, they're joining us on our zoom calls, for.

Example, your son joining the same planned, wasn't it?

Of course, let's emulate the BBC marching into the room. But this is life, right? And I think once we are exactly right, once we can see and feel confident enough that we are seen in our. In our whole selves, it's not just, you know, this is my profession, but my profession fits into my life. And here's what my life also means for that. I think it's really powerful. Yeah. How can that be used as an attraction mechanism, I wonder, for individuals who have a disability, wanting to go and work in an organization, could it be used for attraction?

What. What do you. What do you mean, Holly?

People who are people who openly say or represent themselves as being disabled on maybe it's employer branding literature or their LinkedIn, whatever it might be.

Yeah, I mean, it does make a difference, I think. I think speaking about it openly. I mean, again, I keep going back to the research, but they found, and you said it in your introduction, Holly, as well, that we talk about diversity a lot in organisations. I feel, however, when it comes to disability, disabled people notice when you don't talk about it at all, it's either the poor relation or it's not even spoken about. And actually what that does, it sends a message you're not even thought about or you're not important enough to even have a discussion or. We don't have any disabled people, there's a lack of acknowledgement about their existence and that further exacerbates isolation and loneliness and just feeling forgotten or overlooked completely. So it's important. A lot of people may be nervous about talking about this issue, but if we don't even talk about it at all, actually it's more damaging. And the research found that the participants who took part in the research said, you know, actually just start the conversation. You don't have to be perfect, but let's just start something. Don't be so fearful, you might get it wrong. But that's okay. As well, to do nothing is actually worse. And so, yes, it does matter if people are open because it gets the conversation going and it may be difficult conversations, but, you know, it's better than not saying anything at all.

Yeah, absolutely. So, in thinking of from a hiring point of view, considering that our podcast largely speaks about hiring and employee journeys, I wonder if you can share some advice around some of the recommendations or adjustments that might be considered a very, very normal thing to incorporate into something like a recruitment strategy. What things do organizations tend to overlook and how they improve? If they wanted to get disabled people.

Into the applicant pool, sure. So, again, the legally disabled research looked at the experiences at recruitment for disabled people and they found fewer than 7% surveyed found it easy to find information about accessibility of a prospective employer, and only 9.7% surveyed had a positive experience of recruitment agencies. Unfortunately, again, there's a lack of information on the website about access, about adjustments. I said it before, but a very simple thing is to ask everybody at recruitment and appraisal stage, what adjustment can we make in order for you to do this interview, this job, this assessment, not just singling out disabled people, but asking everybody, because the onus is always on the other person, the person with the impairment, to ask, are you accessible or, you know, you've got to do a lot of work. Organisations need to really, we need to flip the narrative and think, well, what can you do to send out that message? So that's a few things. Another point, a recommendation again was provide a point of contact by telephone or email, a direct email or telephone contact detail for the person that the disabled person has to contact in terms of adjustments, because you're more likely to send that information to a personal email address rather than a generic email address. Sometimes you're exchanging sensitive information, so that's more likely to start a conversation about adjustments. Is your website even accessible? Think about that. Accessibility. You know, experts who can specialise in, specialise in making sure that the website is accessible for people with disabilities. So I would encourage people really to look at the research because there's some further recommendations, but those are some of the top tips, I would say.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, even that, for the very final one there, about your website being accessible, it's another level altogether. When you use a screen reader, just to experience what a screen reader is like. As a sighted person, I can, I can use a screen reader, I can listen to something, whatever else. But when you realize all of the bugs that happen and how difficult it is to input information, input into an applicant tracking system. If we think about the technologies that we've all spent, you know, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, pounds, euros, whatever on acquiring for our companies in order to have a, you know, a data led applicant tracking system for, for people who are, who are applying into the organization. Disability is usually like it's way down the list of requirements and unfortunately the big applicant tracking systems don't seem to do a very good job and we require like 45 different pieces of information which can be really difficult to input for a range of things. That's the first thing I can think of. Gosh, yes. Just testing, test your own website. Can it be seen and can it read aloud for, for those who need it? Yeah, absolutely. And then you're also recommending for appraisal as well. So, you know, recommending adjustments around appraisal and you and I have had, I've had plenty of conversations over the last year, Yasmin, but you personally shared some. A really interesting story. I don't know if you necessarily want to share it on air, no pressure about your own kind of career, conversations that you've had with your manager that they made massive assumptions about you. And I know the legally disabled research had information about this as well.

Yeah. Oh well. So my own story is I, I wasn't always a wheelchair user, you know my story, but I acquired my injury when I was 29. So on the 18th of March 2008 and before that I was practicing personal injury law in a big city law firm and I basically had a spinal stroke, very, very sudden. Went to bed one day, fit, healthy, 29 year old, vegetarian, never smoked, drank in moderation as lawyers do, went to the gym four or five times a week, went to bed within a few hours, just couldn't move my legs at all. And I fell into that statistic of 87% of disabled people actually acquire their disability during their working life. Not born with a disability. This is why it's majority issue. And so I took time off work and when I went back to work after a year because I had to have rehabilitation, adjust physically, psychologically. And when I went back, I, I always say to people, I had both a good boss and a bad boss. So my bad boss was really, did not, did not get diversity at all. Said quite overt discriminatory things to me, saying, you know, if I employed everyone with your disability, the business would collapse. I've got the same problem with part time women workers, but at least he was the one who was open about it. There must be others who would probably. And again, my experience as a disabled person and other people that I've spoken to in the research this has come out is that a lot of the time, people, a lot of the comments or assumptions that we make are very, very well intentioned. And this is why it's so hard to call out. It's quite subtle and insidious. And so it's not overt. You won't get the likes of that boss or many people sort of speaking openly and so overtly about their discrimination. It's actually people who overlook you or assume, oh, we don't want to put too much pressure on. On Yasmin because she's just come back and not even having the conversation. So it's not. It's not even having the conversation about, okay, I think a lot of people were surprised that I even went back to work at all. And there's a soft bigotry of low expectation. And so if you don't even have the conversation about what do you want to get out of work? What are your aspirations? Because I still had a lot of aspirations, but they were killed very quickly. And it was a vicious cycle because I came back feeling myself. What worth, what value do I bring now? Just because of my changed physicality, nothing had happened to my brain, but I questioned my own worth and what I could actually bring. And because my boss was sending messages, very clear, direct messages that actually, you are a problem, you're a burden, that made things worse. And I internalized that. But luckily I had good bosses and people who developed my skills and interests and talents and, you know, had conversations about that. And that's why I've set up this consultancy. So ultimately it worked out well. But we really have to be careful how we speak to people who've experienced a significant life event, whether it's acquiring a disability or a bereavement or whatever it is, because, you know, work is such an important part of our lives and we really can be quite damaging in the way we speak to people. So unfortunately, I had. I did have a negative experience, but on the whole it was positive because not everybody's like that, luckily. But a lot of the time it was, as I said, it was very subtle. It was not being invited to go to court with the senior partner, not getting the juicy cases, not being introduced to particular clients because you were just forgotten and overlooked. And again, I internalized that. And I thought, I know my place here. So I had to get out because I had to do something. I thought I'M really good at and I can really make a difference. It sounds very cheesy, but I just felt I wasn't adding value there. But what could have happened if somebody did nurture that? I don't know. But I'm doing what I love anyway, so it all turned out well. But we really must be careful how we, how we speak to people when they return or when they join a workforce. The assumptions we make and, and the messages we're sending to them. Oh, that's a very long answer to that question.

No, no, no, gosh, no, it's a. Yeah, I'm sorry, I've just written down soft bigotry of low expectations. I think I put that on my wall as a, as a quote of the day. That is, it's really disappointing to hear. But also I, I get completely where that comes from because you're right. I think anybody who does experience difficulty, we do make those assumptions. You're right. Where, you know, I don't want to push them. I don't want to make them feel overwhelmed. And therefore we end up, end up treading too lightly rather than, as you say, have the conversation and confirm actually whether or not they want to drive a little bit harder where their career aspirations do lie. And if we think about representation, as we were just talking about before with that previous article about technology, like representation in a personal injuries firm, could you imagine, you know, a client walking in who has acquired a disability through an injury? Like seeing somebody on the other side of, of the table who is in a similar predicament to them or really who gets it from their own personal expertise and experience?

Yeah, yeah, I was acting for insurance companies, but prior to joining that firm, I did do claimant work. So those people who are injured through accident or something else, so. Exactly. I understood those medical reports on a much deeper level. I really got the, you know, understood it probably better than some of my colleagues because I'd lived through some of those experiences. So actually I probably was in exactly the right place, being a disabled person myself and going through hospital and treatment and all sorts. But yeah, there's lots of value that people can bring, but unfortunately, it just wasn't there for me that I could develop my skills. But yeah.

What a shame. What a shame. But you know what? Their losses are gain. I think, as you say, it has driven you towards a different career that is supporting and enabling lots of organizations to do better. If you could wave a magic wand and just change one big thing that you feel kind of comes up again and again. And again, with the clients that you work with, that they need to change or start or just do better, what would it be with regards to inclusion, particularly of people with disabilities?

I think I've said this before. A lot of organizations always come to me and say, how do we get people to disclose? You know that word, disclose? Are you right to say share? And the onus is always on the disabled person. But let's flip that narrative. What are you doing? What messages are you sending so that people feel psychologically safe at recruitment stage and during their career to enable people to have that conversation? So simple things that we can do, I've already said on the website, talk about adjustments at recruitment stage. Ask people, before we have, you know, when we have events, we always ask, do you have any dietary requirements? Why don't we normalise it and say, do you have any access or adjustment needs so that I don't have to check and other people with different disabilities or impairments have to check, can I access this event? Do you have these adjustments in place? You already start the conversation and that normalises it. I think that that way the onus isn't always on the disabled person. So these are very simple things, but they really make a huge difference. And even if that person hasn't got a disability, again, one in five of us will experience a disability in our working life. They acquire a disability whilst they're working with you. Again, you're sending out that message that you're an inclusive employer that has already thought about it. And you, I think you mentioned before, Holly, it's often an afterthought tacked on rather than embedding inclusion, disability inclusion from the outset, which is a much better way to have an inclusive environment.

Yeah, 100%. And great advice as well. Thank you so much. And, yeah, I have to say, the best events I've ever been to have usually been where there's a whole, whole range of things going on that you're like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. From translators, you know, people wearing headsets for. For translation, because English is not their first language, for example, where it is mine. Sign language in different languages as well has been a really interesting one that I've seen at really cool events and. And obviously access being a different thing as well. But making sure that, you know, this, the venue and the space is accessible just helps absolutely everybody. Whether it's a temporary injury like I have at the moment, I don't know, bum leg and just, you know, climbing stairs is going to be difficult or. Or whether it's because I have a more permanent or much more difficult injury that I need to accommodate. For example. Yeah, all of those things make such a, make such a difference. But yeah, doing a bit of, doing a bit of design thinking, I think what would I need if, if this was my objective? And yeah, we could make our, our physical spaces, but also our digital space is so much more accessible. I love that. Yes, this has been a really fast 40 minutes. Thank you so much. We've learned an absolute ton. But as we ask every panelist who arrives on our show for one final bit of advice that they would like to add to our shortlist of advice for listeners, what would that be?

I think it will be, and I've said this, a theme running through is don't make assumptions about people. I mean, I, as a wheelchair user, you may see me and a lot of people when they learn, when somebody has a disability or you can physically see it, you may make assumptions and usually about what I can't do. I'm going to plug my TED talk here unashamedly. Disability does not mean inability. Please do check it out. But you know, we do make massive assumptions and this is just about, you know, it could be about race or gender, disability, things that we see. We, we have all these biases before that person's even said anything. So my main advice would be don't make assumptions.

And can I ask a question about curiosity? It's something that I've asked my nephew who has spina bifida and hydrocephalus. I've asked him this question a few times and he's come up with different answers. He's now 10, so he's kind of evolved in his thinking. But how, how should one welcome curiosity if one is curious? I know it's, it's something that, you know, when I was growing up, it would have been my mother would have scolded me or my grandmother might have scolded me if I was curious about why this person has a wheelchair or why this person has a stick or whatever that might be.

That's a good question. No, it's interesting because children don't have a filter, do they? And, and often children will ask their parents, why is she in a wheelchair? And it's the parents reaction which I find particularly interesting because if they pull the child away or say, don't ask that, or, you know, they're teaching them to be fearful. And I don't mind children asking me and I'll answer it in a very straightforward way. I'll say, oh, I just can't use my legs or, you know, they seem to accept that. And actually I have. Happens fairly regularly. Actually. People will ask, will ask me and my husband, who's also a wheelchair user. So can you imagine when we're both that we get, we get all sorts of comments, but I think so children are one thing because they're learning about the world around them. And actually we, as adults, we shouldn't. If we show embarrassment or awkwardness, it's just accepting. Some people use wheelchairs, some people have dwarfism. You know, people are different and it's not reacting too strongly to it because the child will pick up on that. I think when it comes to adults asking strangers, asking me, that's a completely different conversation. So I, I don't really like, you know, strangers. If I haven't established a rapport and a connection, a relationship, somebody just asking me out the blue, what happened to you? I mean, I've shared my story here because, you know, we're on a podcast together and, and I chose to, to share it and it's relevant and there's a context to it. But strangers, you know, I always say to people, if you had a visible sign on your head that revealed the most vulnerable moment in your life, perhaps it's bereavement or divorce or something like that. And every time you left the house, people would ask you four or five times a day about something about that event. It's very intrusive. There's a line between curiosity and intrusiveness, isn't there? And I think when you establish rapport and a relationship, I may bring it up, I may not. But you know, sometimes it comes up about my injury, sometimes it doesn't. But my wheelchair doesn't define me. It's a huge part of my life, but it's not an all consuming thing that I go around thinking about my injury all day long. And so I don't, you know, when it comes to strangers and adults asking me very, very quickly, it, I kind of, I'm a bit disappointed because the best thing is just to say hello. You don't really need to make remarks about the way I'm moving around and, and it's so hard because you come across as this chippy, bitter, disabled person. If you react, I've always got a risk assess, you know, do I bother responding or, you know, what do I do? Because I'll go away and think about that all day. And the best thing is just to talk to people normally and it may come up, it may not you know, so that's a whole other podcast Holly might be.

And we're just out of time for this one, unfortunately. But Yasmin, that has been so enlightening. And no, I love that about not making assumptions, but also being very kind, I think. And. And if we are to make assumptions, let's make the most generous one that we possibly can for. For those around us, for sure. Yasmin, thank you so much for your expertise, for your story, for your openness us, and for all the advice that you've shared on our podcast as well. I've really appreciated it and I hope our listeners have as well. If you have any questions for Yasmin, where can they reach out to you?

Best place to get me is LinkedIn, Yasminshek. And yeah, I'm fairly active there, so please do connect with me. You know, love to do that. Best place to find me or my website, www.diversematters.org. but. But LinkedIn is probably the best one.

Excellent. That's brilliant, Yasmin, thank you so much again. And that is it for this week's podcast. Thank you so much for everybody who joined us live and for those of you who are listening after the fact on our podcast, if you do have any questions for Yasmin, as she said, please do reach out to her on LinkedIn. And then for next week, we are going to be joined by Brad Cook, who is the Vice President of Global Talent Acquisition at Intuitive Surgical. And this should be a really interesting conversation with, but really getting back to the absolute basics of talent acquisition. We've all come from a very high, convoluted way of driving in a huge amount of technology. And I think we've forgotten some of the key parts of around recruitment, which is around our people. And so I will be hosting that conversation next week at the same time, which is Wednesday 13th April at 4pm that UK London time. That will be 8am Los Angeles time or 11am New York time, if you can work that around. I look forward to seeing you live on the podcast. If you can join us or listening to me afterwards. Thank you so much, everybody. I'll see you then. Bye.