COVID and the rise of anti-Asian sentiment | with Lucy Sheen

You're very welcome to episode 79 of the Shortlist. My name is Johnny Campbell. I'm your host for the Shortlist Live show and podcast and CEO and co founder of Social Talent. If you're listening to this live, you're very welcome. We welcome all channels, chat contributions, comments which you can post on YouTube or LinkedIn directly. In addition listening to the podcast, any references to articles or notes we make we will post in the show. Notes. You can find out more about the show going by going to socialtown.com the shortlist where you'll see a list of all our previous 78 shows and a list of our upcoming shows and you can find links to all those recordings. But for today with Show 79, we're going to be talking about COVID and the rise of anti Asian sentiment as the world can grapple with the onset of the pandemic in early 20. It also quite disappointingly saw an increase in anti Asian sentiment associated with this. And from the disproportionate representation of Southeast Asians on news stories regarding Covid to growing reports of verbal and physical abuse and even xenophobic scapegoating from political leaders on both sides of the Atlantic, it seemed like the virus almost afforded people excuse of justification for outright racism. And Covid has shone a lot greater light on many issues in society and this rise in kind of anti Asian rhetoric is one that we believe here in. The show deserves a lot more attention, of course, has a massive impact on hiring and talent. Joining us on the show today to discuss this topic is Lucy Sheen. Lucy is an accomplished actor, playwright, digital artist and activist who recently contributed to the We Are Not Virus production with her piece entitled I Am Not a Virus, which I strongly recommend everyone watch. Lucy's here to talk with us about the dangers of lazy stereotyping, how historical attitudes have shaped this current upsurge in discrimination, and what can be done to push the needle when it comes to improving and expanding Asian representation. Lucy, you're very welcome to the show. Wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing with our guests a little bit about your professional experience and, you know, how you became involved in advocating for this topic. Topic.

Hi, thank you very much for having me. Yes, as you said, I'm an actor, writer and activist. I suppose in some senses I got into active activism, if that's the thing, quite late on in my career, which was sprung by and now, I suppose notorious production that was done by the RSC called the orphan of Jiao. A 17 strong cast a play that is often Referred to by academics and others as the Chinese hamlet. Amongst 17 strong casts, there were only three British East Asian actors. And I think that was the straw that broke the British East Asian actors and artists back. And from that, because that campaign went global, we, the people that were also like minded, we realized that in terms of being a British minority, how we were perceived, represented, engaged with within our own industry was pretty appalling and hasn't really, well, hadn't at that point really changed since I had gone to drama school and graduated in the late 70s to whenever that was 2013, which is pretty horrific. Which is I suppose what started my, my very vocal reaction and sort of advocacy and activism with regard to how people like myself are seen and represented in our culture.

I want to tap into that representation and that culture piece because we talked a couple of weeks ago with Susan Village from NBC Universal where we initially dabbled in that topic of the role of mass media and its influence on wider society and culture. And you know, I guess an example you gave there where you have a play proportion to represent a certain culture where actually in truth only being delivered by individuals, extreme minority of individuals even representing that culture just, you know, is, is, is evidence of the challenge that's there and has been there for a long time. But I want to focus on maybe the last couple of years in particular because it's rather than getting better, you could argue it's accelerated and got worse. And I want to point to an article that was published recently on iNews Lucy, which had the title of Anti Asian hate speech online rises by and this is not incorrect, 1662%. That's 1-662-percent during COVID pandemic new study finds that's by Isabel Chapirska on iNews. We'll share the article live and in the show notes there. This is a kind of rather depressing piece, but it feels unfortunately true and it shows evidence. When they examined, you know, millions of online conversations on the platforms we're all very familiar with and they found this explosion of ethnicity based hate speech particularly peaking in March as the pandemic. March 2020 as the pandemic began to spread. And then it links it to, let's say in the UK's context, an increase in anti Asian hate crimes in London of 80% a couple of months after that. It makes this link between what happens online and this hate speech and then how it translates into the real world in a negative way. Can you share me your thoughts on this or your personal experiences? If you have Them relating to what this article claims has happened since the pandemic broke out.

I mean thinking in broad brushstrokes, the article is very true. I mean I suppose for anybody of east or Southeast Asian heritage it's not a surprise and the not wanting to be disingenuous but the shock horror of you know, sort of an explosion of anti Asian feeling. Well for us that anti Asian feeling has never gone away. I mean I think it dips it. Like many things there is a, a plateauing but throughout my lifetime here, which is 50 years plus, that kind of hatred, racism, violence has, has always been part of my life, particularly in my younger years. So you're talking about 60s and 70s attitudes were very different. The makeup of, of Britain was, was particularly very different in, in terms of the, the numbers of people non white faces that you actually saw and particularly faces of, of East Asian features. So that's never gone away. So for us that's no surprise. I suppose what was the shocker was how quickly that that sort of hate speech and, and violence sort of surged and I think off the back of, I'm going to mention it, Brexit and the likes of Farage and that type of sentiment that you know, sort of whipping up of xenophobia which is always a knee, I think a knee jerk reaction to concerns of foreignness or being overrun. And it is the, the, the thought process that allows you to kind of like introduce immigration and, and draconian border controls in a need to kind of like curtail that mobility of I think foreignness. Which is kind of like quite odd considering that you know, up until that point we had been part of the eu, we had flea, you know, movement across Europe which everybody wanted and, and now most people I think are really regressing that we don't have. But hey. So I think that goes hand in hand and it was no surprise but a shocker that the, the, the level on the vitriol and the actual I suppose heat that was behind that. I mean before we went into lockdown I was rehearsing a show in, in the City and I basically got told to f off home and take my effing disease with me. And the guy who did it to me whispered in my ear. So he, which was a shocker. He made a choice to do that because there are other people on the bus because he knew, I think that if he said something like that somebody may have commented or I would like to think that somebody would have commented. And that was in February. So that was already bubbling I think along with, you know, sort of, as I've said, the whip up in, you know, sort of so called nationalism, Brexit, Brexitism and all the rest of that. So that was already building. The article also, you know, sort of also refers to, I think it's Liam Hackett saying that a lot of the terms that were being used were new. I would beg to differ. They may have been couched in a very different way, but disease and, and associating that with people of East Asian heritage has been something that's been around since the 1800s. That's not new. It has always been laid upon people from east, east and Southeast Asia that we are somehow diseased and less than desirable. The men are emasculated and you know, sort of fiends and, and run opium dens and women are Oriental. Women are super sexualized, hypersexualized and therefore, you know, sort of also at one point wanting to be desired but also to be, to be shunned. So this is nothing new for us. This is a continuation of something which is, which is very old. So I think it maybe is a shocker to the, the wider community in Britain to wake up and realize that this is, you know, sort of a problem. This is yet another community that has suffered to a certain extent in silence because we have been ignored and not, and it's easy for us to be ignored because we have never fully, I don't think, been accepted. That is partly, I think we have to take some responsibility for that as much as the wider society does. But you know, sort of in this day and age where I think we have all hoodwinked ourselves into at a point, to a certain point before the pandemic that we had kind of like gotten rid of, you know, sort of most of the racism and you know, we were getting to a point where we were going into the equality, diversity, you know, sort of way of way of thinking. I think it's a shocker for any sort of society to realize that actually we haven't gone as far as we thought we had. And if any, in some senses we are going backwards.

Can I ask you, Lucy, before we came on air we had a chat around the differences between anti Asian sentiment in different parts of the world. And we, for example, contrasted the UK and the US and you touched on some topics I'm keen for you to explore further, which were even just down to definitions of you're in the uk you know, references to different, different parts of Asia where you're from might be different to the US and that there are there, there are different, different ways that it's expressed. I wonder could you walk, walk me through for our audience and we've audience from different parts of the world. Just explain to what's different and what's the same.

Well, in terms of how we identify or identify ourselves, if I say Asian in the UK then we are predominantly, particularly in my industry it that refers to the subcontinent of India. I'm not, therefore, for a lot of people, I'm not Asian, which is nuts. You know, in the States, Asian means the continent of Asia which is a broad, you know, it's the, the largest continent on the planet. So that's, that is a very, very widespread of differing countries and peoples and cultures etc, whereas over here it's very specific to the subcontinent of India. So I have to, to explain, I have to say that I am of East. I'm actually of East Asian and Southeast Asian heritage. There is a differentiation there. And as a friend of mine once said, you know, sort of in terms of being sort of recognized, it seems that only countries that play cricket in the empire are afforded that, that generosity. And obviously, you know, I don't think many East Asian people do play cricket. I don't know, I, I may be proven wrong. So there is that and I think it is a way. I'm sure some people may disagree, but it is that colonization, it is divide and rule, you know, sort of. So that is a part of the empire that was, was ruled, that was governed, very much so which will be allowed into the club of being, you know, sort of a part of the British Empire. Whereas obviously China was never subjugated in that sense. And all the British and all that the British managed to get out of that was Hong Kong, which, you know, sort of an outpost which has grown into what it has. But and I think that influences, has very much a part of the influence on, on how the wider white society has always viewed people from east and Southeast Asia. And also in terms of the migration or people coming from East Asia to the UK and, and sort of settling that it was very much outside of the structure, the main structure of, of British society. Whereas in America, you know, the, how the Chinese and East Asians were sort of employed, they became part of the infrastructure building, the railroads, you know, sort of sort of mining, they became part of, of actually the fabric of that country, whether, you know, sort of the wider white populace like that or not. So it's a very different, you know, sort of foray. Whereas a lot of many not all, but many of the people that initially came over were from a particular, I would say particular strata in, in the Chinese to Chinese society themselves because they were able to come over here. Many of them came over here to study in universities and then went back. So it's quite interesting. Had we had East Asians come over and had they sort of contributed to the fabric, had become miners or steel workers, I think our sort of sort of integration or the way that we are, our view would be very different. That's not to say that there wouldn't be people who would still be prejudicial and racist, but I think our trajectory would be very different. So we have always been sort of the sojourners, the outsiders, the foreigners. And it's particularly noticeable when you get, you know, sort of past the end of the First World War and the lack of recognition of, of, you know, sort of the Chinese Labor Corps and the thousands that. That perished. And again, that is repeated, you know, and there were many deportations after that. And then again that is repeated after the, the Second World War when there was the forced repatriation of many Chinese merchant seamen in secrecy. So it is something, it is an attitude that has continued to sort of thrive in this country, although obviously in the States there was the Exclusion act, which was, you know, sort of barred sort of Asians from, or tried to stop them from becoming part of, you know, the mainstream society. And, and addendum to that, you know, sort of the Aliens act that affected sort of East Asians in, in. In the UK I think was still in operation until the mid-70s. So if a white woman had married a Chinese merchants, seamen, or, or person from East Asia, they lost their citizenship and had to report to the local police stations. And I find that, you know, incredible that that was still in operation. I mean, I don't know how heavily that was enforced, but it was still in operation. So that kind of attitude, you know, sort of. I can't, obviously I'm not an expert in, in terms of what happened happens in America, but here that kind of attitude is, is still there, you know.

So I was going to ask you about the media, right. Generally because as an actor and writer, you know, you work in the world of the media and you mentioned, obviously it's of kind of your, the roots of your call it active activism came from your experience in the media. The media can, can be very harmful in how it misrepresents cultures and, and backgrounds, but it also can have great power when it does it. Right. I wanted to point to some, something that was kind of published last month in time when a kind of big media brand be like going at that kind of younger generation. Sesame street welcomed its first and actually was stunned to hear it's actually only its first after like 51 or 52 years. Asian American puppet. And I think this, the, the, the, the puppets themselves debuted on Thanksgiving Day on a special and the puppet was, was, was Chi Young. And the article talks about how, you know, again, it was, there was a sensitivity to this in terms of, you know, a great deal of thought going into it that it's specifically a Korean American puppet. They didn't want a character that was, to your point, Pan Asian because Pan Asian kind of means nothing and doesn't identify with any particular community. And there isn't a Pan Asian. It's the biggest continent in the world. Right? So how can you have like there's not a pan European, there really isn't a Pan American, there certainly isn't a Pan Asian kind of ethnicity or culture. You know, this is, this is a character that's going into an influential children's program to try and I guess at a young age normalize different backgrounds and cultures and ethnicities. You know, when you see something like this, Lucy, do you see it as this great to positive step forward? You see it as oh, this is like too little too late. Do you see it as a big thing, a small thing, a distraction? What are your thoughts on initials like this?

I mean, I could be meany mouthed and say it is too little too. I don't think it is too little too late. It's too late possibly, but at least it's happening. And I think it's, you know, sort of the, the position that Sesame street holds not just in America but across the globe. I think it's phenomenal and being very specific I think is amazing and I applaud it. It should have happened a lot sooner, you know, from that, from my point of view. But it's happening. And I, I think anything, particularly when you are talking about the younger generations, you know, that we, we hear constantly, you know, that children aren't racist or prejudicial. They learn that behavior from their environment, from their, sadly some, sometimes their nearest and dearest. So I think it's, it's incredibly important that those, that type of reframing how we engage and how we see people who don't necessarily look like us for whatever reason, I think it's incredibly important. It's, it is education in, in the best possible way. It's and it's also entertainment. Now if you, if you take that, what I think is brilliant example and, and take my reservations away from it, it should have happened earlier. And you look at what this country tried to do not too long ago, which was a commission from Children's, children's television, CBBC's which was a, a program which was going to be set in a. A restaurant about a British East Asian family. And that was basically written by an all white writing group. They had employed a cultural consultant, somebody of British East Asian heritage, but failed to take any notice of the concerns that particular person brought to them when the scripts were put in front. So we ended up with things like Chinese dumplings being put in an oven to be baked. Another character calling another one a ching chong. Now this is supposed to be going out to children. And yet, you know, the BBC and the people they commissioned didn't see anything wrong with what was happening A predominantly because they were white. They had no experience with that. As a writer, I do subscribe to the fact that you should be able to write about anything that you want. But there is a caveat to that. You have to do your due diligence as you would with anything. You know, if I as a writer of color decided to write a show or a player or screenplay set in the First World War and had people dressed in uniforms from the Second World War, I'd be hung, drawn and quartered and quite rightly so. It shows my lack of respect, my lack of understanding of that, that subject matter just superficially. And yet when it comes to things like this, particularly when it comes to people of east and Southeast Asian heritage here in the UK it doesn't seem to matter. And that is alarming and that is very upsetting because a similar setup had it to do be to do with people from the black African Caribbean community in the UK if they tried that, it would not. That would have been shut down very, very quickly. The fact that it got as far as it did and it took somebody to basically essentially whistleblower and for us then to have to go on social media to actually get that halted, I think says an awful lot about how the wider society and those in power, particularly in the industry that I work in, view or don't view British east and Southeast Asians, I think if there's.

You know, you have an excellent point in terms of not all, not all minority communities are treated equally in terms of, you know, there are flavors of the month, there are, there are communities that as time moves on in different Parts of the world get more priority over others. And that's not to take away from the communities that are being prioritized and being treated fairly and more equitably. That's that. That should be the way it is. It's just not equitable across the world. We talk about media. You know, we had. I mentioned, obviously, we had Susan from NBC Universal a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about characters in media, and we started talking about characters front of the camera. And she mentioned the actress Marlee Matlin many years ago, who was kind of one of the first mainstream actresses who was deaf to be represented in TV media. Children of a Lesser God, I think, was the first. The big movie that she broke at it. And it kind of was that. It was like, wow. Within, it was literally only Marlee Matlin booked for every single acting gig that required a deaf actor. And then, you know, you see today, Sandra oh is doing amazing work as an amazing American actress around the world. But think there's a danger of Sandro being literally the only person that they can cast in that role, and they'll go to her with everything. To me, I didn't see, you know, when you see a character playing the stereotype of the ethnicity or else the ethnicity or background is critical to the character, I think it's not huge progress. Whereas I recall watching earlier this year promising a woman the movie, and Laverne Cox plays a character in that, and the character is the main. Main actor's best friend in the store she works in. And Laverne Cox as a trans actor, that was irrelevant to the role, never mentioned, never came up. And I saw it as a kind of one of those small moments in Hollywood where it was like you've cast a transactor in a role that could have been anybody, but you cast her because she's fantastic as an actor and not because she's, let's say, deaf or Asian American or trans. And I think it's. To me, you know, when you put a character in who I imagine the Sesame street thing, they may, you know, the character's role is to ham up. Not ham up, but express upon the audience. You know, the culture of Asian Americans and different backgrounds are Korean American. I almost love them just to be not mentioning their background to a certain degree because, you know, just have representation in roles about, you know, she's the teacher or she's the. You know, she's the. The doctor and less about the character. I don't know if that resonates with you about maybe Some of these, These.

Roles, it does in an ideal world where the level. Where the playing field is level, but it isn't particularly in. I mean, obviously I can only in some senses really speak for. For the UK and it. I. I think it's. It's an argument that is always regurgitated when people are. Whatever, you know, so the discrepancy is when people talk about, you know, sort of. Sort of diversity ethnicity and, and, you know, sort of black characters being played by black actors and, you know, sort of Asian characters not being whitewashed so that white actors can. Can play them. I mean, the fact of the matter is both here and in the States, a white actor can play absolutely anything and everything and nobody bats an eyelid. Whereas if you put the. The boot on the other foot, a black actor or an Asian American actor or a British East Asian actor or Southeast Asian actor playing something that is outside that lane usually is. There is a comment there is, you know, sort of. Why are they doing that? It's because it is assumed, you know, sort of that somehow you're making a political point, even if that's with a small p. Yes, ideally it shouldn't matter. You should be able to, you know, cast whomever you. You want and color, you know, sort of background ability, disability, shouldn't. Shouldn't matter. But unfortunately it does because we are not to the point where that we haven't gotten to that point yet because we're still being restricted. You know, people of color, people of difference, you know, sort of who are, you know, seen differently, reacted to differently are still being curtailed in what it is, how they are perceived because we are not normalized. You know, sort of talking about, you know, Sandro and, And Killing Eve, which was I. I loved. But even then, you know, sort of in that show, they couldn't not avoid having, you know, sort of. I think it was the, the. The. The Chinese diplomat sort of indulging in some deviant sexual behavior. And it's a long throwback to the. As I was talking about this idea that, you know, sort of East Asians are somehow kind of like m. Deviance and it's still being regurgitated. And yes, there is very much a weird thing, particularly again, I, I think it sort of plays out differently in the States, but over here, very much so. If you're British, east or Southeast Asian, there can only be one in any one drama. If you have two, then yeah, maybe. But even if you have the one, invariably the. There is a thing that they will be the white Sidekick, you know, this, they're supporting a white narrative. It's not, we are not the center of our own narratives. Even if the show or, or the plot is about East Asians or Southeast Asians, like, like, you know, sort of somehow that is manipulated because it, it's a viewpoint. And if you don't have people from, you know, those heritages overseeing what's happening and actually understanding that viewpoint, then that's not going to change. So it, it does come back to, you know, sort of not only representation that is visual, but the representation behind the camera or backstage is equally important.

Can I ask Lucy, what are your thoughts about, you know, the, the popularity, popularity of a show like Squid Games. Right. Korean production on Netflix that's just become global, that you see the world watching, you know, a Southeast Asian show, essentially making it Netflix this biggest success. Right. And that, you know, like that kind of a show like one, isn't it? I know it, it's not about, you know, being Southeast Asian. It's universal. It's just about human nature and stuff, whether you're a fan of the show or not. But do you think it's important that like, maybe distributors like Netflix are getting, are green lighting things are getting Squid Games out there and it becoming the most popular thing on tv, which just the most popular show, if I'm not mistaken, before that for Netflix, I think was Bridgerton, which again was, you know, a weird one because recast what would have been a very white Victorian looking program and it recast it with a cast of characters that were from everywhere and didn't mention it. You know, does it. Is it showing that there's a real demand for this? But actually the system doesn't get these things made.

Absolutely. And it's interesting that it's people like Netflix, Amazon and Apple that are actually doing this. It's not the BBC, Channel 5. ITV really. I mean they do occasionally do stuff. But you know, the BBC is as a public broadcaster that is funded by the British public and government. They in my mind should be doing the things like that like Bridgeton. They should be doing, you know, of Squid Games or you know, sort of looking into, you know, sort of outsourcing that. But they're not. And you have to question why, why are they not doing it? I mean sky to a certain extent is doing, you know, sort of. And obviously it's not funded, you know, so in some senses, privately you can do what you want. But at the end of the day, I think seeing things like Squid Game, seeing things like Bridgeton seeing, you know, sort of Hollywood films like, well, the Farewell, you know, sort of crazy rich Asians, it shows that people will but put bums on seats. They will pay to go and see that. Which has always been a misnomer or one of the excuses before that is, oh, well, we don't know how that would sell. We not. We're not quite sure how the, the wider public would take it. Well, you have your answer, you know, but I don't see any, any real movement from the very productions houses that there should be. I don't see any of that going. And I have to ask myself, what is the, what is the, the hot. What is holding those companies back from doing that? You know, and some will say, but we've got schemes in place. And I think most artists of east and Southeast Asian heritage or black heritage or whatever are sick of being siphoned off into schemes. We don't need schemes. We need people to invest, we need people to commission, we need people to cast, we need people to hire. There are one or two companies that are actually doing it. But I think, you know, sort of it's interesting, it's conspicuous by its absence the companies that are not at the head of actually suing for greater diversity and equality and inclusion. And it should basically, it should be inclusion. Forget the other two. I think they're red herrings.

But I think you're right in terms of like the power is shifting. Like you look at, you know, Marvel come out with Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings as a, as a big production, right, which is, you know, again, progressive and there's good in jokes in there about the Asian American experience. And you know, I started, you know, seeing that, you know, 10 cent productions out of China or you know, have been heavily investing in the American studio complex the last 10 years and you know, they have a, they have an agenda. They want to basically have more, more, more representation of their home markets, including actors and production staff and set and where these things are set. And you've seen an increasing amount of, you know, mainstream movies, you know, was have an angle based in China or based somewhere in Southeast Asia and more characters and more production teams working on that in a positive way because the money dictates this. And you look at the uk, I saw a presentation less last week by Benedict Evans at Slush and Helsinki where he looked at media in the UK and showed that in, I think 18 to 29 year olds, the media consumption of Netflix plus YouTube is, is one and a half times. All other Media broadcasters and sources put together. So your BBC or ITV, your other different places. It's like you know, BBC, YouTube and Netflix. Domina. What, what the, you know, growing society are influenced by. So your point around, like we're not going to be able to rely on the BBC and ITB and these broadcasters probably because they're not going to exist as we know it. Because the users go where they get entertained, where there's quality production. And the growing ones are arguably much more diverse, more international in their approach. They just let good content go, you know, and if it were, if it, if it, if it kicks off, you know, then it kicks off. But, but that's, that's, that's kind of, I think you are seeing more of it and in mass media and that's, I want to maybe just kind of bring it to a kind of connection to talent. Lucy, you know, how important is it that the, the media world continue or accelerate their approach to, to bringing more representation of, of East Asian or Asian culture into the studio system, into TV programs, you know, more, more what will be called foreign language to the English speaking people. Programs with, you know, productions that are made indeed in different countries, sold for global audiences that aren't about their, their culture. Do you think that that will have an oversized impact on how, you know, the person on the street is treated, the person in their job is treated, the person going for an interview is treated.

I would say it doesn't because you're feeding into things that arguments as to particularly here. I don't know whether I'm assuming there are similar or have been similar arguments over in the states about ethnicity and authenticity. Something like the Squid Games is accepted because it's, it's, it's, you know, sort of, it's authentic, you know, it's authentic. And therefore there is an acceptance of that as a TV program, much as one would accept a foreign language film. Now something very peculiar happens when you make something in this country and it's, it's, it's British in the widest sense because British then takes on a whole other kind of like conundrum of things for which to a certain extent I would say that British East Asians are at the bottom of the recognized pile of British minorities. And therefore you somehow sacrifice your authenticity of being of east or Southeast Asian heritage. Therefore you can't possibly play that role. We have to go abroad and find a Korean or Chinese or Asian American actress, actor to come and do this or you can only have one. So there are a handful of people who have made it up the ladder to be able to be considered to be British, East Asian or East Asian or Southeast Asian enough to be able to appear in a British drama as such, it's infuriating. And that's no disrespect to, to the people who've met the actors who've managed to make it because it's a hard road. There is a certain amount of luck in there, etc as there is for any actor. But we are constantly being told you are not authentic enough or you're too authentic, therefore you can't play this. And it's a lack of normalization, and I hate that word, or a lack of actually people being seen as normal human beings that do mundane jobs and, and not being constantly viewed as this. And how that dictates what, what you can and cannot do in a fictionalized drama, which is insane. But I think it's a reflection of how particularly east as east and Southeast Asians are still viewed in British society. Not just, you know, sort of on a popular, on, you know, sort of the, the popular front, but actually in the hierarchy, even into government. How we are viewed, how we are engaged with, you know, sort of the fact that, you know, so the few politicians of color are still viewed even to this day, you know, sort of One black British MP was mistaken as a cleaner. And we're not talking 20 years ago, we are talking not that long ago another mp, you know, sort of was basically talk, you know, sort of was, was, was, was not going to be allowed into the building because she's of East Asian appearance. What does that say about our society if our, our seat of government is not actually able to, to take on board the fact that, that the, the face that the actual composition of British society is by its very nature, whether we like it or not, diverse. And that stems from empire and colonialism. Yeah.

You know, is it, you know, for me even just, it's an education in terms of perspective on. I think what you're saying, what I'm hearing is that there's a sense of what is British and there's a sense of what is Asian or Southeast Asian. But when you try to be British and you look Southeast Asian, that, that just, that doesn't compute with normal, let's say British society or whatever society it is and offer. That's, that's. That intersection is always the worst marginalization because, you know, you don't fit in either category. We're not going to cast you as a British person. We're not going to cast you Southeast Asian because you're too British and it's like you live in this no man's world or no person's world where exactly. Yeah, no, no, no one's advocating for you.

Yeah, I think it's particularly galling for people of mixed heritage as well because there is, I mean I have a, a sense of that because my background is I'm a transracial adoptee. So I'm neither one thing nor the other. So I understand very much where people who are mixed race heritages, they are in this no man's land of not being particularly one recognized by one half of their culture or the other half of the their culture. And until you know, sort of, we again sort of start introducing and putting these, these, these people into our narratives and accepting that these people exist because we do, we are not unicorns, we do exist, we're not mythical. You know, sort of then it's all continues to be hard for, for people to break through, which is in insane in this day and age.

I think I want to thank you for shining a light on the complexities and there are complex complexities of this, this issue of the challenge in society, the challenge in workplaces, the challenge in media. I do hope that's given a lot of food for thought for our listeners and audience today and you know, there'll be more consideration to the complexities of the different cultures that we're trying to represent and hire from and what our own biases say about ourselves in terms of how we approach different cultures. Lucy, can I ask you, maybe you don't mind to conclude as we do at every show with a piece of advice you'd like to share with our audience you think would, would be particularly helpful maybe perhaps around this topic or perhaps advice you just generally have been offered yourself during your career or you've managed to kind of hone yourself from your own experiences. What advice can you leave us with today?

I mean, I think the advice coming from my industry is that, yeah, advice is just you. We need to be open, we need to engage more. And I think it's for. Yeah, I mean we all have our own biases, but I think we need to check those very carefully. So just be open, just be winning and try. You never know, you may find the next whatever it is, whatever industry you're in, who knows?

Lucy, thanks so much for joining us and sharing your insights and thoughts and stories. It's been an absolute pleasure and I can't wait to see your new project as it hopefully comes out in the new year. But if folks want to find out more about your projects and your work, where can they go?

Lucy, they can go to my website, which is www.lucysheen.com. i'm on social media, social media for my sins. Twitter Lucy Sheen and Insta again, Lucy Sheen. So hit me up.

That's Lucy with a Y machine. And thanks so much for joining us. Take care, Lucy. Thank you for joining us and listening to this week's show or watching this week's show show. Hopefully that's given you some insight and opened your mind. Come back next week, show number 80. Myself and my colleague Holly are going to be going back through 2021 to really dig into the nearly 50 shows we've broadcast this year to understand what advice have we been given? What are the themes to the advice? What are some of the best pieces of advice in retrospect that this year's participants and guests have shared with us? So please join us for that. Hopefully there'll be tons of tips, tons of advice to remember to go back on, see which pieces of advice you took during the year and perhaps you can bring into 2022. That's going to be broadcast live, 15th of December, 4pm UK Ireland time. That's 11am on the east coast of the US, 8am on the west coast, or you can find it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you find your good podcast next Wednesday evening. But do join us live on YouTube or LinkedIn. You'd like to join the conversation and perhaps share your advice with us as well. Until then, take care. Thanks for listening.