Creating two-way accountability for a more inclusive workplace | with Mỹ-Châu Matrick

You're very welcome to episode 132 of the Shortlist. So my name is Johnny Campbell. I'm the CEO of Social Talent. I'm your host for today's podcast and live broadcast. Yes, it's a live broadcast. For those of you listening to the podcast, we do actually broadcast this live, but on YouTube and LinkedIn every Wednesday. And you're most welcome to join us if you ever want to join in the live chat. You're live. Well, very, very welcome to those listening live. We welcome your comments discussion on LinkedIn or YouTube. I'll do our best to bring them into the conversation as much as possible. Today we're going to be talking about how to create two way accountability for a more inclusive workplace. The core belief of diversity, equity and inclusion is that people deserve to be treated fairly. However, all too often the onus of this tends to fall on the individual to advocate for themselves, to speak up and fight for the recognition, the change and fairness that we all deserve and especially in the workplace. So imagine a world where this becomes less of an upward battle and more of a partnership between leadership, those who have authority, have privilege, and individual employees, perhaps those who lack the same authority or privilege. Joining us in the shortlist today to deep dive into this is Michau Mattrick. Micha is a friend of Social Talent and leader of the Join and Connect Ops program and Change at Cisco. And together we're going to be discussing the importance of diversity and leadership and the role it plays in creating opportunities for employees. And we'll also discuss the power of human connection in the workplace. Michau, it's so wonderful to have you. I'm hoping you can perhaps tell our audience a little about yourself, your role, your organization, and where you're joining us from today.

Wonderful. Thank you so much Johnny. My pronouns are she, her, hers and I'm olive skin, black hair with highlights in it, and today I'm wearing a yellow blouse proudly. I'm a first generation Asian American from Vietnam who truly aspires to inspire others to really advocate for themselves and partner with their leaders in their careers. And luckily I work for such a great organization, Cisco, which allows us to truly do that and connect with our leaders because of our Cisco culture. I'm coming from Raleigh, North Carolina or RTP and that's based here in the US and it is such a great pleasure and honor to be with you today.

So Michelle, I know from working with you over the last number of years that you have had your hand in many different elements of the Talent journey in Cisco for employees. But I'm wondering if you could perhaps share with us a little bit about why this particular conversation, the conversation about, you know, that two way accountability for inclusive workplaces is so important for you, perhaps you could share a little bit more about your career and your background that kind of brings you here today to talk about this topic.

I can. I will. So, Jonny, I would tell you that my journey has been an interesting one. On one hand, it's been a pretty smooth journey. I started as a sourcer, which is someone who finds the talent. I did that for an agency and then I got into corporate recruiting and I worked for some large corporations, IBM, gsk and now I've landed at Cisco and it's been great being here. My journey within Cisco has been as a sourcer recruiter, as a trainer, as a program manager, a change manager, and now I lead a team that does that all within the umbrella of recruiting. And I will tell you that in my journey, I thought I was doing great, right? My leaders were saying, you're doing a wonderful job. Michal, I've had a leader tell me, you are my right arm. I can't get anything done without you. And so with all that, the expectation was I'm going to get rewarded for that. I mean, that's kind of one plus one equals two. But it's not the case all the time. And as an Asian American, I will share with you also that sometimes it's difficult, especially for Asians, to advocate for themselves. They're not the only group. But I'm Asian, so I can speak on that. Because in our DNA, genetically, in our DNA from a cultural perspective, we have been groomed and taught and told, you go in, you work hard, your leadership will recognize that and reward you accordingly. You go in, you work hard and you don't complain. You'll be rewarded for that. But the truth of the matter is that there are some leaders who, when they have great talent, they don't want to lose them, they don't want them to go somewhere else. They want to keep them, they want to retain them. There are also some leaders who, because somebody's not making any noise, they're not saying and speaking up, I want that promotion, I want that raise, I want to continue in my career. The leaders thinking, the employees perfectly happy, right? Which was my case. And it wasn't until I started advocating for myself and speaking up with my leadership so they understood what I wanted in my career that advancement opportunities started to present themselves. So I want to help others Understand the importance of both advocating for yourself, but then if you're in that leadership position, the importance of learning and understanding your person, your individual team members, because you have to understand them and their culture, right? To know what, how to give them what they need, how to support them in their career.

I remember the first time I heard Erin Meyer speak on a stage in Paris. She talked about her book at the time, the Culture Map. She's since gone on to written a great book with Reid Hoffman on, on Netflix's Culture. But her first book, the Culture Map, describes, I think, exactly what you're talking about, where she talked about, again, culturally, she's talking about general statements that aren't always particularly true to every individual. But she talked about the differences of different cultures, Western cultures, Eastern cultures, South Asian, North Asian, different cultures, African cultures, and how there's different expectations from how you're brought up, the school system, how you're raised that drive these things that you're not aware of in your own culture, but you become aware of it when you start comparing yourselves against different cultures. So. So, for example, the one that's easy to understand, I think for most of us is perhaps timeliness. You know, as an Irish person, heavily influenced from an Anglo kind of UK culture, we look at the Germans, the German culture as being very precise about time, you know, and we kind of consider them to be sticklers for time. But Erin Meyer's point was it's all relative. You know, when it comes to timeliness, there are cultures who are less timely focused than Germans, but there are cultures that are more time focused. And it isn't about one culture is a stickler for time and one culture isn't. It's all about where you are on a scale and what the expectation is. And time, for example, in many cultures, like middle, like Eastern Mediterranean cultures and North African cultures, is a very flexible thing. You know, you talk about, let's meet for lunch, let's meet in the morning, let's. There's no specifics. Whereas there are cultures where the specificity of the time is 9am Means let's start at 8:58. And that's a small example of how it plays out. But to your point, around careers, I remember the example being shared of the Irish and Irish people looking for jobs in America, particularly in the area of sales. And I'm somebody who has considered hiring sales teams in the US and the general perception is that the Irish have a disadvantage when it comes to interviews in the US because our culture is one where we don't celebrate our successes, it's considered something. It's considered rude to talk about how good you are. In Irish culture, you don't celebrate your successes. So when Irish candidates interview for a job in the US they downplay their role. Whereas, again, the perception is that American candidates, people who've grown up with the US Culture, will perhaps overplay their strengths. So if the interviewer isn't aware of the cultural differences, you have two candidates who could be equal. One is perhaps accentuating their achievements, the other is downplaying them. And you're going to therefore see the candidate who downplays their achievements and their role as being lesser, less experienced, less capable, when that is not quite the truth. So I feel it, even from my culture compared to other cultures, how that lack of cultural awareness, perhaps in a leader, will disadvantage somebody. But here's the thing, Mi cha right, A lot of people, then, Irish candidates for jobs in the US Are told it's our job to learn how to interview in an American way and present ourselves in an American way. And that's the narrative that's played out, that it's up to us to then learn the rules of interviewing in America and play by those rules. Is that what you think is correct, that the culture who is different to the, let's say, dominant culture, the culture that has authority, should adapt and acclimate to the dominant culture? Or what do you think is the right way to do it?

No, I. I hate to hear that. Actually, I'm very saddened to hear that, because at the core of everything, it's about all of us being human beings and needing to treat each other respectfully. And part of that respectfulness is taking that time to understand someone else's culture and where they're coming from. And so if I were interviewing someone from Ireland and I was experiencing that they were downplaying a bit, is my responsibility as the interviewer to dig a little deeper, to help them be able to communicate the value of what they brought to whatever that situation was without it coming across in their minds as boasting, Because I think that's what you're really saying, Johnny, is that in Ireland, bragging is not necessarily seen as a good quality. Right. And so it's really taking that time, and I'm not talking about hours and hours necessarily. When you're interviewing someone, you don't have that much time, but taking a beat or two to listen to the person, see how they are presenting themselves, and then redirect them with questions to get what you, as the interviewer, Needs. Right. That's on the interviewer to do.

I agree. The first example I came across of this was many, many years ago. A good friend of mine, Nikki Hayford in the uk, she was sharing with me the experience of her son, who was on the autistic. Is on the autistic spectrum. And she did a lot of work with the staffing agency she then worked for on raising awareness of the challenges for different communities, like those with neurodiverse skills, like those in the autistic spectrum, and how they are challenged. Interviewing, as a simple example, because the expectations of what a good candidate sounds like, an interview, it doesn't often match somebody, let's say, on the spectrum and how they will communicate. And she saw her own son when he graduated from school, went into the workforce just not getting opportunity, although she knew he was technically very strong in the area. He was, he was interviewing him. But the interview structure was one that benefited people who were strong at communication, even though it was a technical job. You know, again, just another example, perhaps different to culture. So what I'm hearing from what you're saying, I think, Michael, just to clarify, is that good process and structure can enable us to cut through that noise, is that correct?

Yes, exactly. If we level set and we look at it from a different perspective. And I think that's really the key, Johnny, from what I see and hear from people, they go in with one mindset and they really, if they just took a moment to take a step back, widen their lens of how they're looking at things, then they're able to receive more information that would probably dictate a different decision on their part and how they're engaging and interacting with someone. But we don't spend enough time doing that.

Let's jump into the shoe shoes of a manager of a leader. Isn't it difficult for a leader to try and maintain an understanding of every possible culture, every possible difference, every possible background? And if you acknowledge that that's really difficult, what is a better way to approach this challenge? A leader who is keen to understand and do what's right, what's fair, how can they possibly ever balance all the possible differences and know when to adapt or what to adapt?

Right. I don't think there's a way for them to know everything, and I don't ask them to. What I do ask is look at your team, look at the people that directly report into you. Let's start there. If you have a team of five or even 10 people, schedule some time to talk to them. One on one, talk to them about their work, but talk to them about them. What was your career? How did you get here? Go on the personal side, you'll learn a lot and that's over time. So even if in your conversation, one on one, if you spend 10, 15 minutes each time you have a one on one and you spend time on just the personal to get to know them and by the way, let them get to know you, right? So another thing that from my culture is very again, ingrained is that there's a personal life and a professional life and never will the two meet. That's not our culture today. That's not our Society today. With TikTok and people tweeting or whatever's top of mind comes out. That's not the structure of the world today. Today it's a much more inclusive. You share. And so if the leader shares and the employee shares, a human connection is made. And when you have that human connection, right, you start to care genuinely, authentically about the other person. That opens up your mind to being more interested and more vested in who that person is and their culture. They won't come to you and say, this is my culture, is this, this, this, this. No, they. But you'll hear in the conversation and that will unconsciously more than likely shift the way your rapport with them is shift the way you think about them. And it's going to happen organically.

So again, from your own experience, Micha, talk to me about the positive experiences you've had with what we might call good leaders. Leaders who do this. Well, what has it looked like? What did they do differently?

It's the time that they give me, right? I've had some leaders who have genuinely expressed to me that I matter to them beyond just me child, being able to do the work. It's. I come to a meeting and they notice I'm not my usual self and they, they say what's going on today? Like something's happening, right? They know me well enough to recognize that even when I have my game face on, they recognize that, right? It's being able to have a little joke between us. It's one form of me showing that I care is I tease. So, you know, if I get to that comfort level with my leader and they get to that with me and we build that rapport, then I know, hey, we've gone beyond just, we've transitioned beyond just employer, leader, employee, relationship. Now it's becoming more of a friendship. And in doing that, it takes it from that hierarchy of I'm an individual contributor and down here and the leaders up here, it starts to bring us so that we're together more. And that's what helps to make that partnership go much easier, is when you kind of pull that so that everybody's on an equal platform.

Tell me what Cisco and your team and colleagues are doing to better, you know, codify that across the business so that more leaders act and think like that. Because again, I think most, most would agree that they'd love to do that. But how do you scale that? How do you change the behaviors and what has worked so far in Cisco?

Yeah, it's grassroots. It's baby steps, right? There are some leaders that truly embrace it and it's aha moment for them and they deep dive in. They're all in, they're ready to go. There are other leaders who are reluctant and really the biggest reason for the reluctance most of the time is that they just don't have time. They have a big team and they don't have time to make all those investments all at one time. And so it's, we look at each individual situation, we can give guidance and you know, for a leader that has a lot of direct reports, what we might say to them is instead of trying to do that with everyone all at once, you have a big team. Let's kind of space it out. Let's go with a few at first, 5, 10, and then after you've built that report, then go to the next group and the next group. So it varies. There's not a one way fits all model, unfortunately. But the good thing is that we have great leaders here at Cisco who truly do care about their employees. That's our culture, we care about our employees. And so we try to instill and give our leaders the tools that they need to enable them to become the human network for their team members.

On this show. In the past we've talked with several guests Micha about psychological safety. And in those conversations we've talked about how the manager plays obviously a very important role in driving psychological safety in your team. But her team members also play arguably an equal role in trying to promote that. So talk to me about this concept where we have two way accountability for more inclusivity. Because is there, is there an argument to peace? Do some people think it's all the individual's job to drive inclusivity? They're the inclusive person, you know, the more diverse person. Or is it all the manager's job? Talk to me. The two way thing. And, and why isn't this, why should it be the standard? And why isn't it the standard everywhere?

Okay, two very different questions, but I'll try. So yes, it, it absolutely is everyone's responsibility, right, to come together. Coming together doesn't happen if only one party is interested in doing this just doesn't work. We know this historically. It's being shown over and over again. It has to be that both sides want this to happen, right? So that it can take place and that that space of transparency, that space of safety, is met on both sides. So with our employees, I will say that, and it's not all employees, but some employees who are not comfortable bragging, are not comfortable making noise and saying, yes, I get this. It is helping them to understand their value, helping them to understand that that is recognized by others and that they should also recognize their value so that they can then become empowered by that value. Right? And then that in turn allows those conversations and those gates to open up to opportunities. And then the other question, on the flip side of that, it is really hard to do and it's hard to ensure that that's taking place. But this is where if an employee truly wants this from their leader, they need to tell them, they need to be transparent about it. Leaders are wonderful people, but they're not mind readers. And sometimes employees think they are. My leaders should know this. I've heard that said over and over again. My manager is not doing this. They should know this. But should they really know it? And how would they know it if they've never experienced it? No one's ever told them, how would they know? So that's where it's a two way conversation that has to take place. And yes, leaders can go and learn and you know, we can do trainings and all that, sure. But where it really comes into play is with the individuals, is that relationship.

So it seemed to me that, you know, whilst we would love a world where leadership leaders are perfect and they do everything right and they ask the right questions, it's just not a reality. And rather than just being annoyed that your leader doesn't get you isn't appreciating you. I guess you're talking about transparency. It's, it's, it's, you know, saying yes, leaders should be more open. It'd be great if they have these conversations are considered, but they're not perfect. None of us are. So therefore, if you're the employee and you're feeling left out, not heard, not understood, voice that concern, voice that to your manager, to your leader, to open the conversation is that kind of where the two way piece comes in is that it's not one person's responsibility, it's both of yours. And if it's not happening and you're not the one receiving it, you should, you should talk about it.

You should absolutely talk about it. But you should also take the time to reflect on what you want from your career. Right? There are so many avenues, so many avenues in a career you can move up. And that's what people typically think of is, I'm in this position, I get promoted, promoted, promoted, and then next thing you know, I'm CEO of Cisco. Now, Chuck, don't worry, I'm not taking your job. But it's one of those things where the career can advance, be linear, it could go into different groups, different areas. But you need to know what you want from your career and then you need to express that to your leader. They can't help you to achieve that goal, to achieve that career if they don't know. And of course, employees might be, especially if it's talking about going outside of the leader's organization. That might be a scary conversation to have. You don't want to necessarily plant it in your leader's mind that, oh, I'm looking to get out of here and go somewhere else. But is that what you're really trying to do or are you trying to get them engaged in your career? So you talk about that and you talk about a strategy, a plan so that when you do exit, you're not leaving that leader with a vacuum that they can't feel. They know what you're trying to do, they're helping you to do it. So then they're also thinking about the sustainability of the role that you will be vacating and how to fill that. So if we go about it the right way, again, respectfully with one another and being transparent, we can actually achieve this a lot more easily than we're doing today.

Interesting. You, you're touching on that mobility piece there. And I referenced a couple few episodes ago on the show a book by Russ Laraway on leadership, which I read before Christmas and found fascinating. He talks about how, you know, one of the three core things he believes that he should focus on is the careers of her team. And he talks about, to your point, reach out, caring deeply about that person's ambition and wants and desires and being able to advise them and steer them and guide them, even if that means leaving the team or even leaving their business, although that might not be preferred. It's the right thing to focus on. And I get that comes from that empathy, that understanding that, you know, starts with a conversation to understand what. What are your needs, what are your desires, what are your wants, what are you looking for and doing your utmost to help that person. That's. Is that kind of what you're getting at? That kind of focus on what does the person really want?

It absolutely is. And. And leaders who say, you know, I don't want to lose that person. What I say, and the way I think of it is if I help a team member achieve a goal of going to another organization, going to another team, I have just also implanted an ally in that new team. Right. So we hear about networking, we hear about. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Well, I want to spread the people I know around.

I love that. I love that. Because you then to your point about sustainability, you then have a new group of people that you don't know yet who come in, who you get to know, who can do wonderful work, who become part of that network that spread into other parts of your organization, other organizations. And that network is powerful.

Absolutely. I asked my team, I do quarterly career development conversations with them, and it's a meeting dedicated to just their career, but I have one on ones with them, and we talk about their careers as well. And I've told all of my team members that my expectations that they are with me from between two and five years, and then I expect them to go to another leader, I expect them to go to another team because I want them to continue to grow. That's my investment in them. I want to help them, and I want them to grow. I want them to go out and spread their wings, and I want them with other leaders so they can learn other things, I can teach them certain things, but then other leaders can too, and I want them to have that opportunity.

I love that idea of spreading your network and being a positive reason for more mobility. It reminds me a good friend of ours, Kingsley Akins, who joined our platform as a speaker there last year. I first met him many years ago when he was talking about diasporas. He talked about the power of a diaspora, and he gives examples of the Jewish community who are arguably one of the most successful communities in terms of leveraging the diaspora, which is, you know, your network abroad, overseas. The Irish are pretty good at it. And lots of different communities, you know, different cultures in Asia are good at this as well, where African communities are good at it, where, you know, you have this community of people because you share a culture or heritage, you look out for each other. I love the idea of that being extended to my team. Like my team become my internal diaspora in my organization. Who will help me out, who will advocate for me, support me, even though they're no longer in my home team anymore. But we have that common connection and it was a positive connection and we helped each other and we continue to help each other. But let me pull back to another question. Talk to me about the what happens when an organization lacks representation in the organization that has more of a monoculture? Let's say, you know, is that a bad thing? Or, you know, what are the risks of that kind of a culture and organization?

So is it a bad thing? I'm not going to say it's a bad thing, but I'm going to say that it's such a great opportunity to bring in diversity. Right. The challenge when it is structured in the way you just described is that the thought leadership from the diverse perspective just isn't there. There are times that I can be empathetic to other groups. I'm a female, but I can be empathetic to men who are struggling with certain things, but I don't really know. I haven't lived it as a man. I can be empathetic. So as I'm trying to develop and design something that's a potential fix for whatever that issue is, wouldn't it be great to have that person have a seat at the table so I can hear firsthand and understand better from their experience what's going on? So do they have to be part of the team? No. But I think anytime you are building something, structuring something, it's our responsibility to go out and bring in that diverse thought and open up that opportunity. So if they're not on your direct team, at least open the door for the conversation and invite that diverse perspective in to the conversation to have a seat at that table? Because it's going to be them dropping nuggets of gold that we did not ever think about because we don't have their perspective.

I love that it's. It is walking in someone else's shoes, you know, and, and I guess the more pairs of shoes, the more difference there are in those shoes, the better products. So services, processes, structures, you build as an organization, which typically, you know, we've seen the data, it aligns with much more success in every aspect for organizations.

It absolutely does, Jonny. I think.

So when you look at, again, going back to kind of our core topic and that two way Accountability. Can you maybe contrast the difference? If there is a difference between, you know, what should a leader be accountable for and what should her employee be accountable for? Are there differences that we can focus on to kind of help both sides of that equation progress and better understand each other?

Sure, yeah. For the employee. Well, for both, actually, the starting point is both need to do a little bit of self reflection and understand if they have any biases that they might not be fully aware of. Understand kind of where they're at first. That's always important to know who you are and then like I said earlier, recognize your value, understand your value, because that's what's going to empower you to move forward. Then the conversation has to happen. And in that conversation I will say that I will lean more on the leader's responsibility to set up a safe, comfortable environment for that employee to be able to open up and express themselves. Right. They have to know that whatever it is that's in their mind, top of mind, in their heart with what they want for their career, that it's safe for them to actually articulate it. Because if it's not and they get shut down, they're not going to open up again. So that's where that leader plays such a key role. Then once the leader has heard this right, they need to come back and advise that employee on what they can do to help and what the employee can do to help themselves get there. Whether it be training, visibility opportunities with stretch assignments, it could be mentorship. So it could be a number of things. Right. The leader needs to then plan that and know that when they're sitting at a table in a conversation and they hear about a visibility opportunity, I gotta remember that employee, that's something I could connect for them and offer up to them. So it's those types of things that the leader, when they're away from that employee, they need to retain the information that was shared. And as they're sitting at the tables that they're sitting at, think about what can I do to help that employee to achieve that goal. Right? And it's not that it's going to be achieved immediately, but over time. We, like I said, I do quarterly career development conversations. We plan out a year from now. This is where we want to get you to, and these are the things we're going to do to get you there. And I'm going to be responsible for this and you're going to be responsible for that. And that's our contract with each other.

So then from the employee's Perspective. What would your advice be in terms of, you know, obviously, we don't want to push it all on the employee.

Right.

But we also don't want to push it all in the manager. So what are the kind of. What are the areas of accountability, responsibility that the employee can take?

The employee needs to be able to come to have that transparent conversation, but they also need to hold their leader accountable. So if you think about it, Johnny, leaders will say, this is the work I need you to do. Employee and employee will either achieve and complete that task and do that work, or they don't. And if they don't, the leader is going to be holding them accountable. They're going to, what happened? Tell me, you know, what's going on. Did you need more time? Why didn't you communicate? Guess what? The employee can do the same thing with the leader. If I've had three or four career development conversations with you, I've told you what I want, and then I hear you've been in meetings and there's been a great opportunity and you didn't bring me up and you didn't make that happen for me, I can come back to you as the employee and say, help me understand. That sounded like it would have been a great opportunity, aligned to our conversation. Was there something that I didn't hear about pertaining to it that prompted you not to push me forward? You can hold your leader accountable. My team holds me accountable for a lot of things. Actually. I think they've jumped on this bandwagon a little too much, but they absolutely will call me out, and that's okay because I get busy and sometimes I forget things. That's them helping me to be a better leader. That's me being able to receive that and say, you know what, Mia copa, I messed up on that. Let me work on that going forward. And it's okay. We're human beings. We make mistakes, but as long as we're in it together, that's it. We're in it to win. It is an American expression.

Well, let's go back to that point that we opened the conversation with, where you shared your story of how your, you know, your cultural background you believe held you back because it didn't marry with the cultural background or expectations of a manager you had at one point. Have you ever found yourself in that situation where you were in the reverse, where somebody working your team found themselves a situation where, you know, your cultural expectations didn't match their norms? Or perhaps upon reflection, you felt, oh, sugar, I'm after. Not I'M after missing out on this thing or not giving this person that opportunity. Has it happened to you in the reverse?

Mitcha I can honestly say no because I'm very conscientious about it. I truly care about my employees and my team and my goal is to set them up for success. So that is one of my priorities as a leader. But that's because I made that a priority. Right? And I have had people who've left my team who still come back to come join team events because they just like the team and we still have the connection and I'm still supporting them even though they're at different company with a different leader and doing different things. Right. Because again, once I've made that human connection, why would I let it go?

So if I'm a leader listening to this and I'm thinking, you know, I may have been in that situation before where I perhaps didn't understand or respect someone's background, difference, culture, perspective. And I want to, I want to change. I don't want to be that person. What would you say those leaders can do to begin this journey to better understanding of differences, better understanding of perspective, empathy and warmth and relationship with their teams? If they're not doing it today, what would you suggest as the first steps?

You know, books are wonderful then you've referenced several books during this conversation, Joni and I am a reader and I love books. So. Well, before I ever became a people leader, I was reading manager books to get guidance on. And then also reflect on the leadership experience that you've had from your leaders. Think about the ones that were really, that, you know, you really are a great leader. Go back, interview them, talk to them, get them to be your mentors. But the most key thing, I think is to talk to your employees and find out from them what they think makes a great leader and then see if you can adapt and change and be that leader for, for your team member. Because you don't have to be the best leader in the world for everyone. You just need to be the best leader for your team.

I love that. I love that. It actually reminds me of a recent guest who also gave the advice of saying, also look at the bad leaders you've had and ask yourself, what do I not want to do? What do they do that I just do not want to repeat? As another, another way of thinking about this Nietzsche, you know, the, the, the perspective piece and understanding differences is really important. I'll share with you a story. Recently, I, I read a, I read a book two weeks ago that I was inspired to read after I heard the author on national radio being interviewed as she is a, a individual who has dyspraxia and dyslexia, who is now very successful occupational therapist. And she. I was interested because one of my, one of my sons has dyspraxia. Was diagnosed three years ago, dyspraxia. And I had a perception of what that meant. But then when I was able to read her book and understand from someone who also has grown up with dyspraxia what that meant to her, it opened my eyes to, to things I was, I am doing or was doing that literally are not helping my son, that are holding him back or making this really difficult for me. And again, of course, I didn't want to do that, but I didn't understand the perspective of my own son until it was shared with me through this book. And, you know, it reminds me of all the other perspectives I also don't understand and the need to better understand them and to kind of take pause when you're engaging with someone you don't perhaps know terribly well, to understand that although it may not be obvious, it may not be visible that they have differences, but they have, may have a very different perspective. And you need to better understand that to, to, to, to, to accommodate them and to accommodate you and kind of, we have a bias, we have a perspective, we have a background. Other people have different perspectives. And it's not all the same to your point. And that's, that's normal, that's okay. But it's. The more you understand people, the more you, as you said, get to know them properly and care for them, the more likely it is that you will better understand their different perspectives and bring that to bear in a workplace. And the importance of it in the workplace is so, so strong because that drives economic opportunity for people. It drives happiness in terms of where they spend an enormous amount of their day as well. And it's very important. We've, we've gone to the end of our, almost the end of our show, and I can't believe we've flown here so fast. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind doing me one more favor as I ask every guest if you could leave us with one last piece of advice. Whether it's a piece of advice that's been passed on to you by someone who impressed upon you great experience, knowledge in your career history, or it's just something you've learned from your own experience. What advice would you leave our audience with here? Today.

I would say, and I said it earlier, recognize your value, be empowered by that value and then become the linchpin to opening the gates to opportunities for yourself and for others. That's what I would say.

Johnny, I love that. More self confidence, more understanding of your value. Don't be afraid to use that value value to unlock opportunity. Michael, it's been such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today. I wish you every success and thanks for sharing your story and your experience and your knowledge here with our guest today. I look forward to having on again if you'll come back again soon.

Well, thank you so much Johnny. It's been a delight and I really appreciate the opportunity that you extended to me. It's been a wonderful conversation and of course I'd love to come back.

I keep doing amazing work with you, your amazing team and everything you're doing at Cisco. And a big thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in this week for listening to the podcast, listening to us live here on the show. And hopefully you've taken something from that story, from that experience that Micha shared, from her personal experience and of Cisco, of how they're trying to make that more of a two way responsibility and accountability with regard to inclusivity. We'll be back next week at our regular time on Wednesday, 8th of March for a live broadcast that's at 4pm UK Irish time, 11am New York, 8am on the east Coast. And we'll drop in your podcast apps on Wednesday evening where we're going to be talking with Karen Bjorkman, who's the founder of beyondo, about a world of opportunity, how hiring international talent can transform your workplace. And Karen has done this for many, many years for different organizations bringing in international talent into different markets and has a lot of understanding and learning about the power of that in any organization. Highly related to our topic today, of difference and more diverse backgrounds and opportunities as well. So join us next week for that. It'll be in your podcast app Wednesday evening, 8th of March, Thursday morning at the very latest depending on where you are in the world. Or you can join us live on LinkedIn or YouTube and find a list of any of our shows by going to socialtown.com forward/the shortlist. Until then, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.