Driving Recruitment Success: Operational Excellence with PwC's Gemma Milner | SocialTalent

I mean and sometimes you go in too high level and you focus on the shiny stuff, right? You've got to do the stuff that's not the exciting thing first and that is really getting to understand the processes and that is where you get your results on the back of it and that consistently works across. I think you can't go wrong with, with that methodology of taking the time to understand and ask the right questions.

Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Johnny Campbell, CEO and co founder of Social Talent and this week on the podcast we're talking with Gemma Milner about operational excellence in recruiting. Gemma, you're very welcome to the show. I, I was hoping maybe you could introduce yourself to our audience, tell us where in the world you are today and why this topic.

Yeah, sure. So I'm Gemma Milner, I'm head of talent acquisition at PwC. So I look after all experienced higher global mobility and contingent Labour for the UK for PwC, which is great. I've done about 25 years in, in recruitment which tells you how old I am, which is probably not exactly true because I'm a bit older than that. But anyway and from a variety of organizations. So I have done. I came from Royal Mail before being at PwC. So Royal Mail, one of the UK's largest employers, so around 150,000 colleagues across 2,000 sites. A large complex organization and that consists of Royal Mail Group, so it was Royal Mail Group, so Royal Mail Parcel Force Relay, Royal Mail International and PFS which is their facilities arm. I was there for three and a half years and prior to that I, I worked for a third party supplier called GRI and I was account director there and looked after some of the UK's largest organizations. So I looked after Sainsbury's, Wincanton, Argos and asda. And prior to that I was at asda, which is part of, part of which was at the time part of Walmart. So again large complex organization. So retail, 180,000 colleagues. So again large complex organization. And prior to that I did some financial services, so worked at Direct Line Group which is insurance and that was from setup. So they used to be part of Royal bank of Scotland and when I joined they separated and formed their own organisation which is Direct Line Group and I was part of that separation and built the team up in Leeds. I am based in Leeds, so I'm still in Leeds today. And prior to that Skipton Building Society. So again financial services and they'll probably say stop there because otherwise I'm going to give you my whole CV and everyone will fall asleep. But hopefully that gives you a bit of an indication of the variety of organizations that I worked in. Predominantly in house recruitment but as I said did do a stint of third party supply as well really to gain the breadth of understanding in that space and found that really helpful and then moved into brow mail from there as I say.

So part time, Part time jobs in school Gemma, do you want to list them off as well? Should we just cover it?

Did I do part time in school? Probably waitressing and yeah, we could have.

A whole podcast on what did th use do when they were 16?

Yeah.

Connection to it and, and do we remember it? Gemma, I'd love to dig into the topic of operational excellence with you because you know, it might seem something that seems like something that everybody focuses on but my experience they don't. Some teams deliberately don't focus on operational excellence. Some team focus on quality and they're kind of quality any costs at these kind of lofty ideas. Where I've seen operational excellence personally the most is typically in the RPO type space where the delivery teams have to practice operational excellence because there's a very tight margin on the contracts that they would sign with their, their customers and they're trying to deliver high quality service at a very low cost. Need operational excellence in there. How would you define operational excellence and what's the thread that you see or have seen even through the employers you've been with to kind of connect why it's been important and why you think it's important.

So I'm pretty passionate about operational excellence and I would say that for those things that you called out there that, you know, usually organizations focus in on in this, in the TA space around quality and cost to achieve that you really need a real clear understanding of the operational delivery of your team and where you can and can't make impacts in those space. And so I think for me, what I've learned through the different organizations that I've worked for and different challenges, you know, from setting up teams to team, you know, strategy changes from the organization and so what the team were focused on compared to what they were being asked to move to or you know, changes in demand planning and what the size and scale of, you know, demand is going to look like and how you flex to be agile against the strategic needs of the organization. You need a really clear understanding of how your team operates, operate operationally, operate operationally, you know what I mean, how they operate so that you can focus on the right areas to Drive that change to align with the strategy. And so if that's overall, we want to. We want to improve the quality. So how do we do that? What parts of our process impact quality? How are we doing with those today? And it's about being curious about your operation to make sure you're identifying where those bigger opportunities are to impact around cost, quality, speed. All those things are the big ticket items. But to get there, I think you need the operational excellence.

When I think about operational excellence. Right. The kind of models that come to mind for me, Gemma, are the likes of, let's say, an Amazon where to deliver packages to consumers same day or next day at a price that beats a lot of retail stores. You would need to have operational excellence. You need to have, you know, the right inventory level. You need to have picking and packing really organized. You need to have a delivery network that's really tight and efficient and streamlined. You can't have waste in that because of cost, but you can't have waste in that because of efficiency, delivery, quality, all those things. And that, you know, someone like Amazon, arguably their model is all of it, operational excellence. The only reason they can deliver so many products so fast at the price is because they focus on that. You know, airlines like Ryanair might be also seen as organizations that have to focus on operational excellence because the margins are tight. You have to, you know, deal with huge volumes and you have to do it super efficiently. Every minute counts. Hence why you rarely date in the Ryanair aircraft, because they've got to be on time. You know, would those models fit in your head when you think of operational excellence? And, you know, if not, tell me what would. And then, you know, how. What is the equivalent in recruiting, do you think?

I think it's. And yes, I do think it's relevant and it's all about, you know, you broke down the processes that they're using there within Amazon or Ryanair to really get to where they need to be. So they need to be tight on each of the steps within that process, whether that's packing or, you know, boarding cards or whatever they're doing along the way and how long that takes and the, the effort that goes into that is really important. Well, you can apply that to your operation in TA as well. Around what does your process look like end to end, where are you? I mean, I think the first step is are you able to really clearly see how you're operating today along those processes? And it's not so, you know, let's be straight, it's not. It doesn't sound as dexy as we're going to. We want to increase quality and they're the big, like I said, the big ticket items. But the steps in the process are so important of understanding what's working today and what's not and where it's falling down or it might be working, but actually if we tighten the bolts on that, the outcome on the other end is going to be significantly bigger than what we would do if we didn't. So I think that, you know, your first step is understanding what's working today and are you close enough to your processes and the small steps within the experience from that candidate right at the beginning of applying, you know, maybe through the career site or even before that, you know, when we're doing engagement, what does that look like each step of the way until they're starting in, in our business? And what are the steps within that that are, you know, working today and not. And that might. And each step should have a measure on there of how effective it is. And that might be time, it might be cost, it might be, you know, return on investment. But all those things are your measures us to go right, where are our opportunity? So like I said, the first step is that understanding that what's your playing field look like, See the wood for the trees and then what are your opportunities? So what are you going to go for? That aligns to that business strategy of what we're trying to achieve.

Is there then a minus one step, though, Gemma, where you look at, you know, again, to use the analogy of Ryanair, they're optimizing for cost, they're clear about it, they're unapologetic, they're saying, we optimize for cost, that's our advantage. Do you have to, first of all, when you come into a TA team, Cause you come into many teams, have to lock into what you're optimizing for. Because I guess what you might do from an operational excellence point of view to optimize for speed might be different. If you're optimizing for cost or if you're optimizing for diversity, optimizing for something else. And of course, we all want to have a bit of everything, but do you have to kind of know what that is and align that with the strategy of the business first before you start looking at those processes?

Yeah, absolutely. And so it's, it's what you're trying to, what you're trying to achieve, but I think sometimes you don't. You can't. You. Well, you won't be able to see the opportunities until you've laid it out and you're really clear about how you're operating today and in the detail of that you'll know what the business overall strategy is and what they're trying to get to. I'd like to think that you do and if you don't, you find that out and then when you come out, when you've done your review of right, what does this look like end to end, how long does it all take? How much does it all cost? Where's the, where is the experience in this and what does the quality look like? Where are our opportunities? Right, of those opportunities, how do we prioritize them against this, what we're trying to achieve, aligned with that business strategy? So then once you've got them, that's then when the really interesting stuff comes in I think because that's when you can get really, well, you should get really curious about why we do things the way we do things and asking the right questions and keep asking questions and so that you, you know, you're really clear on the, it goes back to kind of root cause analysis and using those, that sort of methodology as to why we do the things that we do.

We had with Chris Bleakley on the podcast recently. Chris is the VPTA Spire Healthcare. And Chris was talking about how when he came into Spire Healthcare, which used to BUPA in the uk, I'm sure, you know, in terms of the hospitals system across the uk, largest hospital system, he was talking about how, you know, from, from an operational excellence point of view, one of the most important things as a TA leader is to have the measurements, the metrics. And he said, you know, kind of one of the first things he, he would, he did in that role but also has done in previous roles is go do I have the ability to measure which sometimes you don't have going into a new role. You know, how important is that and what's your kind of rule of thumb about, you know, the importance you place on capturing the data before you start acting?

Oh, I mean data led decisions is something that particularly at PwC we're very passionate about, I think in every organization to make sure that you're making the right decisions, you're looking at the right things. The data should be telling you the story as to, as to where you know, where you go from, go from there. And so when I talk about asking questions, it's asking questions a lot of the time around the data. So what is it telling us? Why is it telling us that what's driving that, you know, and usually it's there's insight behind it that will help your thinking going forward and what that solution needs to be. And so I don't think I can express the importance of data enough, but it's making sure that you've got reliable data is really important as well. Sorry, go on.

Sorry, sorry.

I was just going to say, you know, within, within talent acquisition, we've got lots of technology now, some amazing pieces of technology, how they all plug together and the data that then comes out of that is really important that we can trust it and it clean. And what I mean by that again comes back down to operational excellence and how you use the technology, because what you put in is obviously what you get out. So if we're using technology properly, consistently across process, the data that will come out of that will be reliable and help you make the right decisions. So again, takes you back to operational excellence, I think.

Do you, when you look at that data for the first time, let's say, Gemma, are you looking to identify the obvious inefficiencies first and if so, how do you measure that they're inefficient? You know, what's your rule of thumb? How do you know that? Let's say the amount of time it takes for hiring manager to get back to a candidate is too long or too short or just right. So two parts there, one is just do you go after that obvious low hanging fruit of massive inefficiency and then how do you measure that it's inefficient in the first place?

I think it depends on what you're looking at. I guess the stuff that I, I would always say never just take it. If something looks a bit odd, then they're your things that you definitely need to ask the questions about and that it's like pulling a little string, isn't it? The ones that look a little bit odd, you pull the string and then everything kind of opens up a little bit, a little up and bit more. If it looks unusual, that's where we need to start asking questions. And it might be right, but otherwise. But it might also mean that there's opportunity there to do things a little bit differently. Or it might be that there's, you know, a process that's not being followed that should have been followed, which allows you to go back and review why that happened. So I think being really comfortable with the data that you're reading and when I say comfortable, I mean that when you look at it, if you go I couldn't talk, I couldn't explain this back to you, Johnny, without fully understanding each step. You know, would I be able to go into a conversation with somebody and go, this is why these numbers are these numbers. And if there's any of those numbers, you couldn't do that for that. They're the ones that you really need to be asking the questions about. And then there's other one, other, you know, data that you're looking for that maybe you've got SLAs, well, you will have SLAs most likely. And if there's things that are falling under or under or over sla, because when you're, when you're achieving, sometimes that will not look right to you as well, if that makes sense. So sometimes the numbers are so good you're like, really? Is that right? And then that will lead you to questions to make sure that you really copy, confident in the results that you're having. So yeah, the, I think it goes back to again, that kind of root cause analysis. What, what's driving those numbers? Understanding what's driving those numbers. And if you don't, making sure that you ask those questions because that's where the opportunities often lie.

I remember you remind me of, of many years ago, I went in and did a session with the group, but then B sky, B sky. And they were really proud of this quite low average time to hire. And it was only when the pretty new leader dug into it, she realized the average time to hire was low because half the vacancies were open and closed on the same day. And when they dug into that, it was a behavioral issue where they'd been recruiting the whole time and only when they needed to make an offer to the recruiters, open a wreck, make the offer, close the wreck. And so to your point, the data can look too good and you got to dig into the numbers and go, oh, hang on a second, there's a behavioral anomaly causing the data to be off, off here to get to the bottom.

Absolutely. And that's a really great example where there might be a risk to the business that as a TA team we need to jump on. And so if we're seeing that, you know, in that example where you've got an amazingly low time to offer, you dig into it and find that recs have been opened only for a few days and then closed down. And it's because a hiring manager has tried to be really proactive, gone out, interviewed someone, got them ready to offer and then presented them as a new candidate that they now need the TA team to process. And if someone's picked that up and processed that, then it's obviously a risk because we want to make sure that we're being fair and consistent in the way that we approach our recruitment and that we're going out to market in the right way and all that stuff. So identifying risks to the business in that through the data is obviously really important. And you're only going to get to that if your data is telling you the true story. Which is why we spend so much time making sure that we're making data led decisions.

So if we kind of anchor everything on data, making sure to your point, you can tell the data stories. You're comfortable with the data stories you mentioned at the start, you've worked in lots of different sectors, several different employers. Are there any patterns you would suggest you've seen over your career that you might be able to share with other leaders on the podcast to go? Do you know what, there's a couple of obvious areas where you're probably going to find something or is it always different?

I think it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I think that when I look back in my career, the bit that is consistent, that gets results is getting close to it before you can go. I mean, and sometimes you go in too high level and you focus on the shiny stuff, right? You've got to do the stuff that's not the exciting thing first and that is really getting to understand the processes and that is where you get your results on the back of it and that consistently works across. I think you can't go wrong with, with that methodology of taking the time to understand and ask the right questions. But you know, getting to the detail is important so that you are making the right decisions long term. And I think whether that's whatever sector I think in, you know, in all the different organizations that I've worked in, different challenges along the way and you know, most of the successes that I've been particularly proud about have been driven from taking the time to understand. Be curious. Also, you need a bit of grit along the way, right? Because sometimes it means having conversations with people that don't want to hear it. Sometimes you'll try stuff and it won't work. And that feels painful. But you know, the great determination to keep going is really important. You know, sometimes we put it into the too difficult pile once we start dig down to stuff and start those root, you know, when we try to get the root to the root of the problem and then something Else more important comes along and it gets pushed to one side and you achieve what you set out to achieve. And I think that's where you need to have the grit and the resilience to keep going with some of this stuff.

Well, could you share with us some examples that come to mind where, you know, the data has driven you to an insight that you're comfortable, you understand the process and the reason behind it. And then maybe what was the process improvements that you focused on? And just walk us through the story of it. Like, imagine I'm doing a behavioral interview, Gemma, asking you to tell me, tell me about a time. Questions in your crowd.

Tell me about a time.

Tell me at a time.

Tell us about the time, Jenna. Okay, I. I think so, everybody. So, you know, I think most TA functions felt some pressure over Covid and when volumes for a lot of organizations kind of went through the roof. And I was in one of those where time was really important because the market was tight. A lot of, you know, we were all going out for the same people. And so speed was key. And how do we get to how, you know, could we not sacrifice on quality, but we can speed up the process so that we can beat some of our competitors. And you always hear things from like the business with, you know, that organization can get someone in, in 24 hours. And like this, you know, some of it's all folklore, is it? Folk tale. Can't think of the word I'm looking for now. But anyway, that's the expectation that they. They get in their head that, you know, it needs to be really, really quick. And they're right in that, you know, it is a race against time. It was in that time at that, in that period. And so we would look, we spent time looking at the process and right where can we speed things up? But to do that without impacting quality, we looked at things like our assessment processes and the steps within there and how many, you know, how are we identifying skill and the impact of time it's taken to do each. And what we found that what we could do is remove some parts of the process that weren't really having. So people were going through it and the same amount of people were going to the next step. So, you know, it's not drilling down. It's not really finding us that the quality that we need it to. And if we removed that, that would save us X amount of days and we'd still have the majority of what we started with from a talent perspective. And so, so we did that and we removed parts of the process, but enhanced the, the, the, the interaction and the time spent that we had with candidates to make up that time. Not know if this is making much sense, but, but where. Yeah, so, so being able to look at the. What steps in the process must we keep and what steps in the process can we remove without impacting candidate experience and the quality of the hire at the back end? And we massively reduced our time to offer in doing that significantly.

I love that it seems obvious, but not a lot of people maybe do it. If you're cutting half the candidates at a stage, it's probably a valuable stage because there's, there's value there. But if 2% of candidates get cut at that stage, then what's the value in all the effort time for the candidate to go through the stage. Maybe whatever your organization is putting into that to try and do that as well. That, that, that's actually a great example when, when you think about operational excellence, it's hard to have a podcast with anybody these days. They talk about AI. Gemma, do you think that generative AI offers a new framing for operational excellence? Excellence in recruiting? And maybe it's, you know, because my experience has largely been that people are, have great examples of operational improvements through AI in the hourly space, but less so in the corporate hiring space. Haven't really seen as much of that. Or what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your thinking and what are you seeing in the market at the moment?

Gemma, around that I think there's massive opportunity for AI. I think it's, I'm definitely on the side of the fence with, you know, AI. You know, AI plays a massive part, but we'll still be, you know, led by humans. So AI powered, human led is, is the approach and I think that that absolutely has opportunities within professional services and I think that it's important to have the baseline right first. So where does operational excellence fit in? Well, you should be really confident that you've got the right processes in place to then go right now the next step is, and I would say this about any technology, you know, let's understand what we're trying to achieve end to end. Right. How can we enhance that now using AI, using better technology to support the process along the way. So I think that there's, we'll see some really interesting stuff I think over the next sort of 12, 18 months in that, in that space. But yeah, I mean if you think about automation within the process, but you need to understand where you would have the most impact in there. That takes you back to understanding each step. Where would it have most value? Where do we want human intervention? Where do we not need human intervention? And where would you, you know, and where would the risk lie? And making sure that you're taking that measured approach. But yeah, I think that it's definitely got a lot of opportunity but you need the operational excellence but it's not going to do that for you. It will enhance, it'll enhance it, but you need to have a good ground in to understand what you're trying to achieve in the first place.

Yeah, I was at a, an event recently where we had a sales leader from Amazon, senior sales leader and we're trying to understand what are different industries doing to try and drive operational excellence. And she shared some of the technologies they're using that are powered by AI in the sales teams are all around trying to, you know, increase the time spent on the phone with customers which I would equate to, let's say candidates or hiring managers, you know, in our world. And take away all the admin in terms of researching prospecting, having the information to hand that enhances the human to human interactions and takes away the admin that otherwise is going to take the hours. I think largely, certainly in corporate hiring, I think that's the example I give. There was, there was, you know, a great story I heard from the team at Compass Group, which you're probably familiar with from your prior careers. Competitor of Sodexo have a huge amount of hourly hiring, blue collar hiring and they completely automated the recruiting process. Took 300 recruiters out of their recruiting organization through this. And the story is fascinating. But then when we asked about corporate hiring, none of that, so they haven't done touch hiring. There has been no benefit yet. And it's again I think to your point, there are different models for different types of hiring. PwC obviously is professional hiring, arguably the highest level, you know, qualified individuals and you know, average salary much larger and a different experience expectation. So I imagine, you know, we'll see, you know, different levels of service and professional services, you know, which I would equate to, let's say, you know, a Michelin star restaurant, like you don't want to automate the waiter part of a Michelin star restaurant as part of the experience, you know, but maybe in McDonald's we're happy to automate the waiter. I'm using air quotes now, part of the experience to a kiosk. But in both instances we're both happy to automate the payment, you know, so where, where, where's the equivalent of paying the bill in corporate hiring? Where we go, do you know what that doesn't need a high touch experience, that doesn't need throwing bodies at it. We can make that experience faster for the candidate and it saves us in operational excellence. Is that the Holy Grail, Gemma, is, you know, where operational excellence leads to savings for a recruiting team and also leads to a better experience for candidates. Is that the ultimate goal?

100%. I think utopia is we have, you end up with a cost efficient, high quality model that's bringing in the, you know, excellent, engaged talent aligned with your values as an organization, driven by that operational excellence in the core of what you're doing. But I think the, the AI piece I think will continue to evolve and there's, I'm sure we've only just started scratching the surface. I think things are evolving at a speed that none of us have seen before. But I, you know, you're absolutely right. From a candidate experience that human interaction will still be very important and there'll be some, you know, I've seen some amazing technology out there around where, you know, AI is engaging with candidates at lots of different levels and I think there's some transactional conversation that you might be comfortable with still having with AI when you're just trying to get to facts quickly. But from real engagement and really understanding what it feels like to work at an organization, there's nothing beats speaking to someone and really understanding their experiences and feeling their culture of the organization.

And I'd argue that the tech is the easy part. The behavioral change of the humans is harder. So maybe a last question, if you don't mind, Gemma. You know, when you're identifying with the data what the opportunities are for operational excellence and what the plan would be, what are your top tips around getting the team behind that actually driving the human change required to deliver on the plan of operational excellence? What are your top tips or learnings around the people part there?

I think people, you know, people want to know what's in it for them. Right. And so why, why does operational excellence, why does data, why does being really close to understanding what everybody's doing, you know, through the process and the impact that they have, support the them as individuals and why it's important and it helps you develop, it helps you understand where, from a personal point of view, the areas that you want to focus on as well and need to focus on and keep you moving in the right direction, but also gives you the tools to Be able to do your job and really be an SME for the, for the business. And so. And it's understanding. I think one of the things that's really important around operational excellence is how you bring people along with you and bringing people in at the right time for the right things. And as a, as a function, as a team, really understanding change and being change agents. Because there's different types of change, right. And I think that one of the things that I think is really important for teams is understanding those types of change. So some things change because they have to change. Right. And it's best practice and otherwise it's a risk or, and we'll just do it. So we'll just get on and we'll do that. And sometimes that can feel like you're being done to, but it's kind of a fact of life that some things just have to happen. There's other change that you'll absolutely be involved in. And a lot of operational excellence is pulling on those experts within your team to feed that in at the right time along those processes and they're fully involved in the change. And that's much easier because you feel included in it along the way. And then change that you drive yourself and going in, finding opportunities, using the data that you've got to show where you know you can drive some change and making sure that you're telling that story in the right way to get some of that landed. And so we're not all going to be always involved in all the change that we make. It's just an unrealistic expert expectation. But everyone can be a change agent. So whether that's, we're now working in this way and so let's work together to make it work, or we're asking people to look at the information, work together and come up with a solution, you know, the impact, the outcomes of all that is, you know, what we're trying to achieve in that positive result in the end.

So, yeah, so it's not just about change for change sake, but it's also, it's more a culture of operational excellence where, you know, people aren't just waiting to be told what we're changing or improving. They're trying to suggest that they're trying to on their own, drive operational excellence and not just be a top down thing. I love that.

Yeah. I mean, you can't do it by yourself. You want lots of eyes on this. And I think that's when you really get to, you know, optimum operational excellence is everyone is thinking in that way and everyone is looking at the screws along the way that they can tighten. When you used, right at the beginning of our conversation, the Amazon analogies and the. And Ryanair and looking at how we do things and really thinking about why we do things and making sure that we're using, you know, we're asking lots of questions along the way to understand and so therefore, you know, take ownership of. Actually, I think we can do this different.

Gemma, I'm inspired by your approach to operational excellence. You, you have a. Your reach, you're. I'm sold. It's very much how I, I like to think in terms of how do you improve each little process along the way to drive those incremental gains, those marginal gains, and improve the overall process to win, win. Gemma, if anyone wants to reach out to find out more about how you do it, some tips about perhaps operational excellence they're looking to implement in their teams. What's the best way to reach out to you?

I'm on LinkedIn, so message me on LinkedIn and, you know, more than happy to have conversations. Always like to talk to like minded people.

So, yeah, Gemma, thanks so much for joining us today for sharing your views. Maybe we'll get you back in a little while and you can update us on the operational Excellence initiatives in PwC UK and what you've been working on then the next time. So really good to have you and thanks for joining us, Gemma.

Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks.

To you for listening. We'll be back with a new show next week.