Finding the time for learning and development | with Sabrina Pittaluga

Hello, everybody. And you're so very, very welcome to this week's edition of Social Talents, the shortlist. This is episode 107, I believe. We've absolutely flown through these episodes over the last couple of months and we've grown such a significant amount of content and insights and learning. And here's the thing, obviously that has taken a huge amount of time to build and it takes time to listen to or watch live. If you're watching this, this particular edition live, it takes time to do that. And that's the topic of this week's talk is about finding the time for learning. My name is Holly Fawcett. I'm the director of Content here at Social Talent. And as director of content, my main remit, of course, is about building content for people to learn. And something that constantly comes up that people has as some form of almost an objection to learning is I just don't have time. I don't have time for this. I am so busy. I've got so much work on. I need to learn how to do this other thing, but yet I just don't have the time in order to do that because I've got so much things on my to do list. It's kind of a chicken and egg scenario with regards to your performance. For every single person, whether you're an individual contributor, whether you are a people manager, whether you are an executive, etc, any, any type of role in an organization, your performance will depend on your capacity to impart information and use the knowledge that you have. But of course, you must gain that knowledge in the first place. So on the subject of this particular talk, despite all the statistics and the importance of course, we all place on learning and development and growing within our roles, the greatest barrier to success is always going to be time. And think about it, like not have time to do exercise, but we will of course have to make time in order to do that. L and D is as essential to our performance as exercise is to our health and movement is to our health. There's so many benefits for employees, for employers, etc. But carving out the dedicated space in a very, very busy diary is a recurring challenge that every single organization faces. So on this week's show we have Sabrina Pitaluga, who is the talent acquisition manager for Experienced Hire Recruiting in Boston Consulting Group. And Sabrina joins us to chat about how to make time for learning and development. So we're going to discuss the importance of L and D. We're going to learn some ticks. Sorry, excuse me. Some tips and some tricks. To how to learn continuously and also some tactics on how best to retain and use the knowledge that you acquire in training. So you're very welcome. Sabrina, would you like to introduce yourself to our audience please?

Hi Ollie. I'm very pleased to to be here with you today to to meet finally almost in person. It' It's a pleasure and as you shared before, I'm Sabrina, I'm from bcg Boston Consulting Group. I'm part of the IMISA EH team that means I'm covering together with my team members a big Europe, Middle East, South America and Africa and for people who already gained some experience in the business. And today I'm here to talk about one of the topic that is close to my heart that is learning even if I'm part of the HR, broader HR and recruiting. But I think that the learning and development of course is one of the key activities, key department in each company. So very happy to be here today.

Thank you. And as you say that is an enormous region to be covering the Europe, Middle East, South America and Africa for experience higher learning or sorry experience higher recruiting is extraordinary. So how many people are in your team? Do you mind me asking?

The whole team is composed by around 20 people but we are growing more.

Yes, there's a lot of tasks I would imagine to share just amongst a very small group, a reasonably small group of people with only 20 pairs of hands I suppose to get all that work done. So does I'm too busy for learning happen in your team? Does that excuse crop up especially when you've got such a high volume of requisition load for example or high volume of tasks to be done amongst such a small team?

Yes, of course. Basically we are covering different time zone so from South America minus 6 so far compared to Italy where I'm based and plus 2 for Middle East. So of course the agendas are pretty busy and but this is not an excuse, let me be bold not to do some some trainings and thanks to technology now we can definitely own more our time. I not so recently but all I always remember one report from the World Economic Forum about the top skills in 2025 and basically 2025 will be tomorrow evening and yes, it's almost here and okay, there is critical thinking, problem solving, leadership but one of the the one who struck me the most is active learning and learning strategies. So to learn and how to learn is a skill, a top skill and this is amazing. So no excuses to find time because it's definitely mandatory to to achieve company and personal Professional of course goals.

Just.

To of course from the company point of company's point of view it's definitely relevant because of the new challenges. We are in a VUCA world so of course we need some skills not present in the past or something definitely different. And it's not only to learn new skills but how to learn. And so it's also my tips will be how to retain knowledge because we can attend tons of trainings hours and hours on in person and online trainings but with if we do only with one eye doing something else in the meantime and we know that sometimes it happens by through different, I don't know, zoom teams, meetings, trainings, sometimes we are doing something else at the end of the day it won't be relevant to have followed such such trainings. So the idea is of course to be always focus and to get the most from the. Yeah the trainings that we are supposed to follow to attend and of course the companies are to survive and of course to grow need people with highly skilled people. So it's also beneficial for the companies and also why not to have more committed and happier people. I'm definitely happy at bcg not to kind of advertising but that we have the opportunity to, to access a lot of trainings, social talent for instance. But and for me it's a plus definitely I have the opportunity to attend as many trainings I want. Of course it depends on my agenda but at least 30 minutes per week and yes and for me it's, it's definitely a plus.

So that 30 minutes per week. 30 minutes sounds perfectly reasonable. I mean to anybody I've ever said 30 minutes a week which is by the way 1% of active working time that we are paid to do in most full time, five day week, eight hour day work days that we generally contract our people to do. Thirty minutes a week, you just a shade over 1% of that. And when you say can you carve out 1% of your working week, excuse me, every week to. To doing some learning. Everybody I've asked that question to has always said oh yeah, I can do that, that's no problem, I can do 30 minutes a week. And yet, and yet actually doing it are two very different things. So what do you feel is the barrier to finding that time in your agenda? As you say you have the opportunity to take all of these courses and classes at your organization. Within BCG you have access to huge amounts of content through your different learning management systems etc including social talent. But how do you find that time on your agenda? Is it protected for you or is it something that you need to ring fence for yourself?

Both of them. I mean for in person trainings of course I have to put boundaries because I want to protect this specific time because it's for my personal and professional growth. Also again it's a very uncertain word. So to be more skilled is also removing anxiety from my shoulders. I'm gaining knowledge, I'm gaining. I'm becoming more and more an expert in. On some topics I. I can rely on my skills. And this is also yeah. Reducing anxiety. Why not? It's also for my well being. So I want to put some boundaries for in trainings. In person trainings because of course there are dedicated timing so specific days. But thanks. Or because of the COVID We also. We now knows that we. We know basically that we have some. Lot of. It depends on the topic. But online platforms and this is definitely more flexible approach at least from my side. I'm not keen anymore to be honest to stay in a class in a room for eight hours to attend a very long training. Kind of a frontal one with no Q and A or only at the end. I like in person trainings. I will be very honest, but not some sort of trainings. In reality with the online platforms 30 minutes is completely feasible because you can split in different chunks. So I don't know and also rely on technology. I mean I can use the desktop, the website or the mobile app. So I'm going today I'm in the office. I commuted. So during my. The underground it was so hot in Milano these days.

But oh gosh, I can only imagine.

And not to think about how hot is Milano these days. I took two trainings, 10 minutes, very easy peasy. Then when I work from home and so I'm alone and not, I don't know, talking with my colleagues. Coffee chat, you don't know but you are often with me during my coffee. Sorry my coffee break. Johnny John Blastilica. So you are with me basically five minutes. The. The perfect timing for a coffee. Okay, let's try. So one. Of course one video. So it's. And two. Yes. Kind of saving very small chunk of time at the end of the week. Half an hour is definitely feasible. And in. In addition of course we need. We all need a clear learning path because it's not about doing trainings about everything with.

No.

We have to do with a clear objective.

Yes.

And in this sense I think that the leaders can play a key role.

So I want to definitely pick up on leadership's role in that. If I might just put a pin in that for two minutes and dig into something you were saying about, you know, using the difference between the likes of classroom type of training, whereby you're in a physical space with fellow learners as well, learning from a teacher or some form of instructor, and you're simply listening to something, you might be given an exercise. Try this out now. Whatever. In a classroom type of environment, that's very traditional type of training versus the likes of where you access your LMS through your desktop computer, through your. Through a mobile app or whatever else. And therefore we're able to pick up on learning in small little chunks, whether it's commuting on the Metro or it's on your coffee break. And I'm delighted to be with you during your coffee break for some of those. The, the first article that we. In terms of our normal format for this show, we obviously look at some articles that are in the news with regards to our particular topic. And our first article from this from the Harvard Business Review is build learning into your employees Workflow from Bruce Rudy. From Bruce Rudy, a really, really, really helpful article. I'll put the link into the show Notes for those of you listen to the podcast, if you're on the live stream, it's into the chat now. But this article I found so helpful about precisely what you're saying. Giving people that opportunity to utilize technology so that you're building learning into people's ordinary workday, so that you clock up those 30 minutes so fast, maybe even a lot more than 30 minutes. It could even be an hour, two hours of learning over the course of a week when you find those little snippets of time. And I felt it was very interesting to look at Rudy's position, I suppose, in terms of some of the challenges that L and D have. Now you're working in an HR function. You know, the investment that HR spends on learning and development, the return on investment cannot always be very easily measured. And therefore it can be a huge challenge to continue to invest in that year on year if you're not actually seeing real results from it. So some of the, obviously the bigger issues is that we're just, you know, the content is, is so vast, we're not really able to see that return. But where you're saying you have a clear direction of what that learning should be, you give people a clear learning path of what they're able to do, and they give them the freedom of time to be able to slot it in at their workplace. Have you seen A return on the investment that you personally spend on your learning and your colleagues as well and how they spend their time doing learning. A return in their capacity and their capability to do certain tasks their ability to deliver on results or you know, achieving towards a higher objective, a more strategic objective with the organization etc. In terms of upskilling on particular more broader themes. For example tell me about some of that ROI for using technology for learning rather than the traditional classroom type learning.

First of all data is king so we have to measure everything also in terms of yeah amount of money that we are putting on on trainings we have to address differently our efforts or not or with I don't know some other providers, some other type of trainings or online offline and and so on and so forth. We have to be very careful about metrics and we have to define upfront but ideally very practical example from my side I, I I could see in my daily work I mean at the very beginning I was not so sure that selling selling techniques were strictly and strongly related to recruiting function. I was wrong. Spoiler alert. I was wrong.

Aren't we all.

Yeah and I was not so confident in selling something but I took some trainings and and I of course to have some ROI you have to put in practical absolutely you you have to practice practice practice because only practice make perfect but I put into very practical exercises LinkedIn email so very just to shaping differently my communication to candidates to attract so at the very beginning and I've seen that the response rate growth plus 20% so from 30 to 50 so and it's definitely a very good result from my side that's phenomenal so.

That'S a growth of 80% but 3020 percentage points you can big yourself up there even more almost doubled your response rate which is incredible. Right. So those what you're saying is is there's a phrase I don't particularly like using very often but it's because it's a bit toxic sometimes but we definitely want to work smarter not harder, not harder. Right. And something that you alluded to for example one of the mentors who you watch on your training is John Vlastaliko who's attended on this podcast a couple of times and and I'm sure anybody who's who's familiar with social talent training and recruiting toolbox separately as well will would know John Blastilika very very well. But one of the key I have two like most memorable quotes from John Blastilika. The first is misalignment is the Root of all evil. Which is very true. Miscommunication, misalignment. But the second is try harder is not a strategy and that's work in general, isn't it? Constantly just trying to like oh no, no, I'm just going to scrub harder and it'll eventually, you know, work out. Isn't the case. I think we fundamentally need to like change up what it is that we do realize that we're selling, for example, where before we never realized that before and get into doing things fundamentally differently if we want to see different results. And therefore that requires learning.

Yes, yeah. Instead of try harder, try differently. Absolutely. And it's a matter also of learning by doing because at the very, of course the plus 20% was not from day zero. So I tried several types of communication and then I found out, of course following tips and suggestions from the trainings. But then of course it's my daily routine, my daily job. I have to of course tailor made a bit on myself to become also more.

Yeah.

More true in, in, in a sense it's not, it's the. To bring my very myself in the communication. And it works, it works quite well. So I don't know if it's a secret sauce, I don't know. But the results are there. So I'm pretty happy.

I would be very, very, very happy if I was getting nearly double my response rate. So congratulations and well done. And certainly like sharing that knowledge with others is a form of learning. Right. It's a coming back to simply just listening to somebody tell you how to do something rather than listening to and sharing and learning from stories of others who have tried it this way. Realize that doesn't work. Tried it this other way, got a slightly different, different result but not quite where I was going and figuring out how things work for yourself and being able to. If we. So think about. For me. Right. From an instructional perspective, when we're looking at it from a very theoretical point of view, as you move up the chain of the complexity of the type of learning that you're doing, if you're simply listening in a very passive way, we remember like 5% of that over after a month, even a week, we'll just, we won't remember that. But if we take it that level higher and continue to really add and elevate our learning to that we're analyzing, we're evaluating, we're evaluating this new information versus our old information. But as we create new things out of it, as we create a new process for ourselves, as we take a little bit of the ingredients that I learned in this training and a little bit of the ingredients I learned in this other training and mush them together into my own as you say, secret sauce. That is when we fully learn something that is the essence of of learning and it's that practical piece. But it's not just watching a video that's a five minute long conversation or five minute long discussion. There is it builds and adults learn through just absorbing lots of different information in lots of different formats. And so that kind of brings me into your your point around leaders and also the second article that we have for discussion today, which is from magazine which is half of employees quote don't have the time. Isn't that very familiar to upskill at work? Again, I'm going to put the link into the show notes for you to be able to read for yourselves. Alternatively, it's in the, it's in the private sorry it's in the chat function if you are watching from our livestream. But the not not having time. I think there's an interesting perspective here obviously that employees just simply just drop their hands and say I don't have time for learning. But actually there's lots of different types of learning formats that are out there. For example conversations or watching a video for five minutes or going on YouTube and figuring something out or learning by doing right. Those are all opportunities and formats of learning that perhaps people just don't recognize is learning time. So actually people don't have time but they really are learning at the same time in my view. What's your opinion on that?

I think that basically leaders are a very key role in in being facilitators for this kind of activities that are relevant so relevant not only in the short run but in the long run. Because if I use my time, if I invest a few hours today I will have better results, better work less in tomorrow. So it's an investment with a good roi. So of course leaders has to to stress this part. That is I I completely understand that your agenda is fully packed today but what about tomorrow? What about this week? I like in the, in one of the two articles the the nudge the nudge part so kind of gentle nudge to remind to act as a reminder. Probably the two main roles are act as a reminder to stress the importance. I personally probably I bother my my colleagues but I send a kind of very not fancy slides very simple ones. But okay I did these trainings and my key takeaways are 1, 2, 3 and I think that these are valuable and you could enjoy just to kind of pre screening let's put this way also because I know my colleagues so I think that they could benefit from some specific trainings on the other end kind of acting as a role model. Because I cannot say people okay. Even if you have a busy agenda, you have to do it. And in the meantime not doing anything from my own learning and development. So of course we should. I. I personally try to now it's an habit more than a challenge. But at the very beginning each new habit is a bit painful at the very beginning because you have to create something new. But then of course when the habit is created it's rewarding. It's simply rewarding. Of course a third point. Leaders has to be kind of advisors not only to suggest trainings but also to yeah suggesting in respect of the. The person. I don't know capabilities, needs and so on and so forth. And a good idea is always to put in the career plan. We have a structured career plan. The type of trainings or the topics different people should work on and then the, the before and after. I don't know. Attending training. Sorry attending meetings with. Yeah for us is definitely important to act as a talent advisor to our stakeholders, internal stakeholders. So ideally before and after I have seen great differences in one specific person because this person worked a lot on this specific type of.

Skill.

And yes at the end it was successful. So of course to try what is your best suit and to. To refine again learning by doing and doing mistakes. Why not it's allowed to, to. To make mistakes.

Oh of course. Some of the best lessons I've ever learned in my life have generally been driven by mistakes which is you know, difficult. Right. Their mistakes are painful and we tend to shy away from them. But at least if mistakes are helpful in avoiding that mistake again for instance. But certainly just figuring out look, we just discovered one of them anyway so this doesn't work can be helpful.

Now one of my favorite quote is sometimes we win and sometimes we learn.

Yes. Yes. I thought you were gonna say sometimes we lose. I'm like yes, I know but also yes sometimes I hope all the time we learn. I like to akin. I like to compare rather learning a skill with beginning an exercise routine for the first time or an exercise, you know, just, just deciding I'm going to be somebody who exercises which as we like we're humans. We are in the 21st century. We've. We've been around right. We haven't dug our heads underneath the sand for a very like so I'm sure this is not news to anybody that exercise is important for our health and for our life and for living a living, a good balanced life that we need to be able to, to a level of exercise or a level of ability to move and try and push that as much as we can. But starting off an exercise plan, whether you are a frequent runner and now you've decided I'm going to take up weights or you've done very, very little movement and I just need to go walking longer distances and starting up that it is always difficult in the beginning, but unless we see results reasonably quickly, it tends to be very demotivating sometimes that I'm not seeing the results that I wanted. I thought this was going to be instantaneous. So going back to your point you made a few moments earlier about the leader being that key role in facilitating learning, but also being that champion recognizing where they've made great strengths or great strides and improvements in their performance because, well, look, I see that you've, we're trying to implement this, this skill into our daily practice in, for example, in your organization, in talent acquisition. We're really looking to deliver a better service to services along or certainly being able to deliver a better effective process for managing requisitions, for example. But this is a, you know, here's where I see you've implemented that, that learning there and here's the result. Isn't that great? So it's almost like that, you know, when you say see the first inch come off if you're, if your goal is to, is to lose weight around your waist, for example, being able to tie the button on your jeans a little bit easier, seeing those little things, those little quick wins can be so motivating to learners to go, oh yeah, I will. That is great. I did implement that. That's brilliant. And now I want to keep going. But as you say, learning becomes habitual. We are always looking for the learning in things. And where we fail, where we make successes, where other people have failed, we're always looking for those insights or those opportunities to pick up new information and our brains suddenly become. Going back to your point at the very, very, very beginning of this conversation, that World Economic forum report for 2025, learning strategies and knowing how to learn are critical skills for anybody to operate in this world in any way going forward. Has that kind of inspired you and your team to take on other like as you say, you're trying to carve out those particular times in your day and really show people and share with them the things that you've learned. But have they decided they will also send back their feedback about what are the things 1, 2, 3 that I learned from this course as well and have a discussion like how is your learning adapted and changed over time as you've become more able and capable of learning as a team?

It depends. Of course it's not on a weekly basis. One of the two articles that very insightful but it's suggested to save a weekly time to talk about probably on a weekly basis could be a bit too much in my experience because of course busy agendas and then not only trainings but also reflection on trainings. But definitely the idea is a super good one not only to to do trainings but also to reflect in terms of sharing ideas sharing best practices. Okay my methodology my point of view, my the angle I use to do XYZ is this one. Do you have other ideas coming from. I don't know different trainings you you have followed and the last in the last weeks. I don't know a new framework, a new template. To be honest, I'm a very lazy person so I'm not taking notes but my life is saved by screenshots so while following some trainings and it's a very personal suggestion for me it works I don't know if for other people but to take a screenshot and then put a label naming with of course the specific topics and it helps me to also to recollect not only now but also in the coming months. I have a special social talent folder and on my laptop and full of screenshots coming from the the trainings and of course I'm ready to share. I don't know someone don't have doesn't have time or enough time. I can also share the very key takeaways and I know that other people can do the same to me not to saving time but also it's a matter of networking sharing because the unfortunately on the online part what is missing is the human touch because you cannot of course talk to the the people in front of you so the missing part could be done after so in sharing and and to be honest yes to have a final goal so not to I don't know I want to run a marathon in two months. Completely impossible but I want to start doing I don't know a light run or something like this. I don't know not three times, five times a week nonsense. Because the first time you are miss the the I don't know the morning run you will be fully Demotivated. I am also a coach and I deeply believe in the power of the action plan. The action plan has to be feasible, but also to achieve the goal, you have to create your own action plan small step by small step. And for the, the trainings to the, the final goal in. Yes, in having trainings is not for the. I don't know, because I like training so much and I want to learn everything in the world is because I want to grow, I want to become an expert on a specific topic. So the idea is also to have a clear path, to have the opportunity to monitorize your results. And you can also see, I don't know, on a daily basis, but on a weekly basis.

Yes, that's really key, actually. And I think it might be very helpful maybe as we wrap up for the final couple of minutes of our conversation, to dig into a couple of these wonderful tips, by the way. And I am raging because I put away my pen about 45 minutes ago before we started having this conversation. I decided to clear my desk, which was a stupid mistake because I really needed to take down that note. But as you say, like some of the, some of the key things for learners to get going or even just to improve your, your current ability to learn. And remember, you know, whether you are an individual employee or you are as in you're an individual contributor or you manage people or you manage an entire business unit or even entire organization, if you're a CEO, for example, you're still an individual person and therefore you have to grow this ability to learn. So looking at the, the action plan with the objective starting with that as a goal rather than this kind of like, I just need to learn for learning's sake. You're right. It should be driven by an agenda. There has to be something that I want to get out of this because otherwise, as you're right, as soon as miss that morning run or you break the habit and you know, you, you missed your session for the 30 minutes or you didn't do any training this week, you become completely demotivated or you don't see results fast enough because what are you. Well, what's the result about if you don't have something to measure it against, against your goal? Right. Taking screenshots is another really brilliant thing. I need to remember that as well. So taking screenshots, actually, I think what might be very helpful, maybe one of my tips that I wanted to share about a kind of a strategy as your own individual learner, speaking to you one on one, whether you are Sabrina, speaking in front of me or you are a listener listening to this on a podcast is figure out your learning style. So, Sabrina, you sound to me like you are a reader learner or a visual learner, because you don't like, as you say, you're being lazy. I don't think you are being lazy, but you sound like you. You know, by taking screenshots and taking a detailed note of what the precisely this is, you're able to go back and read the thing that was on the screen at that time. But there's four types of learning styles, and maybe one of these will resonate with you. There's a visual learner, somebody who learns by looking at things usually, or maybe investigating something, what that looks like. There's an audible learner, an auditory learner, somebody likes to listen to something. So perhaps if you love listening to podcasts, for example, or audiobooks, that might give you a really good hint that you're potentially like an audible type of learner. Or maybe you like to listen and write down things at the same time. It can be a combination of learning styles. So then this visual auditory, the R is a, is a, is a reader. So somebody likes to read words that are on screens or read the transcript of something, loves reading books. And that's how they learn. And then lastly is K, which is kinesthetic. So V, A, R, K or vark is the model. And kinesthetic learners are people who love to touch, feel, press this button, figure out how this works. Think about any engineer. You know, they are more likely than anybody to be a kinesthetic learner. And I think generally when you're able to combine some of those styles of, and figuring out what is your style of learning, if you can optimize for that in your daily learning, whether it's having a conversation with somebody, so you're listening to that conversation, you're reading the slides that are on a PowerPoint presentation, you're reading some notes that somebody shared, or you're watching something, or you're, or you're feeling touching, feeling, figuring out for yourself getting things wrong and learning by doing that is a really optimum way for you personally to learn. And so any way that you can optimize towards that learning style, you will learn more information. Of course, everybody's different, but there are free tools online. Just Google it. What is my learning style? And there would be a quiz for you, certainly so that you can figure out what is your learning style. But I definitely, that would be my one and only tip that I Will share personally for that is really figure out what your learning style is and optimize for it.

Yeah, definitely helpful. Probably in Covid time, the kinesthetic people are less lucky. But for the other. Yes. And also in. And in my opinion is we have a preference, a strong preference, but it's also necessary to, I don't know, to go out of our comfort zone and try something different. Because you never know.

Yeah. Actually, even though you might have a primary style of learning, your secondary style will certainly help to further embed that learning. But actually something that you spoke about earlier with regards to you're sharing your other tips. But then even if you were to, even if the person wasn't to read your information, if you were to share that information personally, what you personally took out of it, you're effectively teaching somebody else that information. And by teaching somebody, that is the highest level in terms of our kind of pyramid of how we learn something, teaching somebody else, you will never learn something more fully and more deeply than by teaching somebody else that concept. So where we have an opportunity to share that kind of information, I think is. Is really, really useful. Have you any other tips that you wanted to. To share from what your team do or about finding time or actually just the learning in itself to really grow one's skill as a learner?

If you think, if you always think that you don't have time, probably your first training should be on time management and how to prioritize. Why not? It's. It's not a shame. And always ask for advices you are not. If someone is not sure 100%, ask for feedbacks to your peer, to your colleagues, to everyone. But at the end of the day, be the owner of your own development because it's up to us. So we have to be the real owner.

Yeah, absolutely.

Other can help us.

But. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a. There's actually, there's a comment in here from one of our viewers who are watching us from LinkedIn that the promotion of learning and development as a culture, you need to assist employees to adopt better. Better to. Sorry. To adapt better to change. Because in business everything changes. You know, with that in mind, like, because everything changes, one is we're having to be responsible for their development. But ultimately actually this is something that I learned, I learned last week in my weekly journey is that a company will own your job, but you own your career. And you know, when an organization needs to make changes like this is a difficult time for some organizations are having to make layoffs really Difficult decisions, letting whole business units go, whole teams go, whether regardless of performance, etc, you know, things will happen but because of your ability to learn, you will, you know, always have, have further opportunities out there. So, yeah, I completely agree that. Own your own development.

Yeah, A backup plan is always the best option.

Yes, I can tell you're a coach. Thank you, Sabrina. Become back. I actually am shocked that we've gone through so much time because I have at least more 15 minutes, more questions to ask you, but sadly I will be cut off if I keep going on. But Sabrina, we finished time. Yes, please. Actually, we'll have a separate conversation to this, but we ask everybody this one question at the end, which is, what piece of advice would you like to share with your audience? Perhaps it was advice that you often give to others or maybe it's advice you've been giving yourself. But just one piece of advice to add to our shortlist of advice, please.

No, be patient with yourself. I have to be patient with myself if everything needs time. So be patient.

Yeah, if you don't see results straight away, you're not doing things wrong. It's just, it's going to take a bit more time.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. A bit of forgiveness. Oh, gosh, I need to remember that myself. So, Sabrina, this has been a brilliant conversation. I've learned loads. I wish I had my bloody pen with me though. But I'll have the recording afterwards so I can take this down. Again, thank you so much for sharing your insights and personal tips as well. This has been really, really helpful and I hope that those of you watching live or listening on the podcast have also found this helpful. So please make that 30 minutes of time a week. 1% of work time. Remember, you own your career, you own your development. It's up to all of us to keep learning. So, Sabrina, thank you so much and to everybody, thank you very much indeed for, for, for watching and for listening. Next week we will be joined by the wonderful Lisa Lux where we're going to be talking about gender outside of the workplace. Really, really interesting conversation about gender, about pronouns, about being way more than your email signature with Lisa Lux. So I do hope you join me next week for a really fascinating and interesting conversation. And until then, have a wonderful week. Thank you, everybody. Bye, Sam.