From traditional to progressive: TA transformation in a remote world | with Michel Guye-Bergeret

Hello and welcome to show 51 of the shortlist. My name is Johnny Campbell. I'm your host, CEO and co founder of Social Talent.

And if it's your first time on.

The show, we really welcome you. We talk about talent topics here every single week and we have a guest or guests on who hopefully will enlighten you and us as to the topic we're talking about today, which today for show 51 is from traditional to progressive. We're going to talk about TA transformation in a remote world. TA transformation is a theme we've talked about several times before here on the show because it's happening constantly. But in the last year, perhaps even more than ever, as the rule books got ripped up with COVID the pandemic, a cessation of hiring for several months, then that restarted for a lot of industries is still restarting or waiting to restart from others in different parts of the world. So really, it's been a crazy year. So there's so much to talk about around talent transformation and this week's guest is going to bring a brand new perspective, one I suspect you haven't heard before, but with some very universal lessons. Quick reminder for those of you who are looking to find out more about our back catalog and what's coming up next, you can find out all you need to know about the show by going to socialtalent.com or forward/ the Shortlist. We're a weekly show, we do broadcast live on LinkedIn and YouTube. So if you do happen to have the opportunity to join us, which is typically 4pm in the UK, you can figure out what time that is in your part of the world. You can join in the commentary and the chat live on LinkedIn or YouTube. And if you're listening now live, we'd encourage you to join in later and say hello, tell us where you're listening in from and to direct any questions you have to our guest throughout through that live chat. We're also a podcast. If you're listening live, you can catch up with all of our shows on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast, just check out the shortlist. You'll find other shows there. So back to transforming ta. So it's, you know, it's a difficult thing to do in any time of year, right? But when you are working for a humanitarian aid organization, who, for example, right now is looking at the conflict in in between Israel and Palestine and asking yourselves, how do we get people on the ground? You know, recruiting looks different and talent acquisition looks different. Whilst many Things may be the same. You have this very different mission of your organization and that drives a lot of different behaviors. And it's kind of probably one of those benefits being you don't have trouble finding purpose in your role, but you do find yourself changing things quite regularly as the world changes without you getting a vote, essentially, when you're working for humanitarian aid organization. So joining us today is Michel Guy Bejeret. And Michel is the global head of TA and employer branding for, I'm going to say the Red Cross. And you're going to think, oh, the Red Cross, those people who, like, you know, they help you if you faint at a concert or a football match or they help crowd control. But actually he works for the international committee of the Red Cross, known as the icrc. And I'm going to get Michelle to explain a little bit more about who ICRC are. And Michel's known on the international stage as an innovative, analytical and strategic TA leader. And he's taken that approach to the team at ICRC over the last three, three and a half years to really improve the way that they deliver talent acquisition services to the organization by infusing everything from AI data analytics, market intelligence to his approach, but really by enabling an entrepreneurial attitude amongst the team, amongst the members that actually make up the talent acquisition team that work with MICH across the world. And they are a global team, not just because they are working distributed in a distributed manner since COVID but they've been that way since day one. So Michel has done a lot of work with his team and he'll give credit to his team most, I think, for the work that's been done the last three and a half years under his stewardship. But we're really interested to get into what it's like to do transformation in that kind of an environment. But Michel, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. I've been excited about this episode for some time.

I was wondering if you could introduce.

Yourself and particularly ICRC and give us a bit of context as to who the organization is and therefore what does a talent acquisition team do within that kind of an environment?

Yeah, absolutely, Johnny. So again, my name is Michel Gubergeret. I'm the head of talent attraction and employer branding at the ICRC from a global perspective. I'm trying to coach, lead and take and drive a team of 10 people based in seven different locations. Our objective is really to take our activity to the next level, to bring the right people to actually help affected populations of armed conflicts. So The ICRC stands for the International Committee of the Red Cross, as you said, Johnny. And there's always the kind of the visuals around the Red Cross and us. There's even actually an international Federation for the Red Cross that is also, you know, we are a movement of the Red Cross and our, our mission is really to intervene in armed conflicts or other situations of violence. So our daily life is to recruit people with, you know, sometimes three languages. So Arabic, French, English or Portuguese, French and English. And that's just about the languages. Then we need to target the right skills for sure. So when we're recruiting, you know, a forensic specialist, we're recruiting water and habitat engineers, we are recruiting economic and specialists, we are also recruiting healthcare professionals, surgeons, midwives, physicians. So it's such a wide palette of recruitments that, you know, we were obliged, so to say to go from, I would say, a little bit of old school practices to modern approach. And actually our ambitions is really to, to also go the extra mile and go a little bit, you know, push the envelope a little bit further on and start innovating in the upcoming years. So obviously it takes some time and today we are in a position that we've managed actually to pivot the team with that level of complexity that we have to deal on a daily basis and then we're starting into getting to the next step, which is the next three to four years. It's about innovation, it's about setting a new benchmark in terms of recruitment. And that's the journey that we, you know, the first journey that we have achieved is to pivot the team, get to the speed that we are. And now actually the ambition is to really move forward and get to a place of innovation.

What I'm going to do is jump into our news stories this week. I think there's some really interesting comments here that we can kind of items we can, we can touch on that I'd love to try and explore. So now I'm going to actually go with our first news story of the week. So first up in the news was this article we found from Information Age from a few weeks back, which is about AI and recruitment, the current state of play. And yes, it's a bit of a blatant plug by the head of the UK for this company called Golden Bees by Ravi Joshi. But if you want to check it out, Information Age, AI and recruitment, the current state of play.

And we'll put a link to the.

Article in the comments here, really, this article explores how companies and how recruitment in the recruiting sector are implementing AI and automation and particularly programmatic advertising. And the article makes a number of claims which I thought were pretty interesting. The first, which I think is quite probably the most controversial, was that when it comes to programmatic tools that the US has, recruitment sector has about 50, 50 to 60% uptake in this area, where the UK it's around 10%. The author offers zero data to explain that, but it is suggesting that the US is far ahead in using programmatics and AI in the recruiting processes. But it does point to a number of big benefits of technology in terms of, you know, bringing your team up to speed and ones that you know that resonate with me massively. And programmatic, certainly when it comes to programmatic advertising is definitely one of those. Love to get your thoughts on that. And maybe if you could expand and tell us a little bit about what is your approach being around things like programmatic AI and technology and tools within your particular team.

About the AI and the article, I think from my own personal experience, well, obviously I'm very attached to leverage on technology and use technology as something that can take you to the next level to be very pragmatic. I think there is two things about AI that I have been experiencing, which is the dream and the reality. The dream is that obviously there's a lot of capabilities and ways actually to move forward. Then there is how you use it and to which extent, to give two concrete examples, we use two different tools for artificial intelligence. So one actually to give some support when it comes to right content and have a more diverse and inclusive language when it comes to job descriptions, employer branding and communication. And the other one is to do better hyper target recruitment campaigns. So with the support of AI algorithms, we have possibilities of better targeting the populations and the audiences that we want to engage with. So I think there is a lot of sound, there is a lot of interesting promises that you hear. There is part of it a little bit like the sales pitch. There's also a reality that if you tweak it the right way, if you use it in the right approach and you're not expecting to be in dreams, it can really leverage your actions and your results to some point.

We had planned to discuss the second article that I'll briefly mention, which is a Forbes article which talks about remote working and it's a Harvard professor and the article's quote called this Harvard professor reveals the secret sauce for remote work and has nothing to do with zoom. This professor is Siddharth Neely, who's a senior professor in Harvard, who's been teaching remote work for many years, many years before the pandemic. And I want to relate that back to your own situation because your team were remote before this. There's probably very little change to a certain degree day to day in terms of how your team interact with each other. I wonder, can you walk me through what you've seen from the last two and a half years working with that team? What has made this successful and what are some of the elements of distributed working that you think we need to embrace the most? And you touched on ones before we went, went on air. So I think it's really important to go in there as well.

Absolutely. Johnny. Let me, let me just kind of create a smooth transition from the first article to the second one. And everyone is speaking about AI and AI this and AI that. There's another kind of AI that I have been experiencing over the last two years and a half. And it's not about artificial intelligence, it's more about attitude and intention and when it comes to manage a remote team. I was not in Covid times when I started managing a virtual team, right? So when I wake up in the mornings, I start my discussions in Beijing, then I move to Bangkok, then I moved to Nairobi and I moved to Brussels, Geneva and I end up my days with Sao Paulo. So one of the first things that I really immediately understood to manage a virtual team, despite the COVID situation, because that was on day one, is attitude towards virtual interactions and your intentions. And you have to be very clear on those two points to build trust. And that's the link with the article, is the fact that humankind has been wired in a way where we build trust through interactions and human interactions and face to face situations. So how do you build that trust? Through basically flat screens. And it's super difficult if you apply the same paradigm, which is human interactions in face to face. So the first thing that we had to adapt is it's not to have a virtual coffee break. It's not basically to have an escape game every month, although we're doing that and it's fun. But this is not how you build trust. Building trust is, for me, it was very clear that it's not also about, you know, you have to find your why, even though I love Simon Sinek, but it's also, I understood that you have to, you have to give and open the room for people to, you know, just actually do what, what they have to do. Give that kind of a space for failure. Give that space actually so that they Try out, leave them actually in action and stay there with them to say, how can I help? How can I support? How do you. Do you need me on a daily basis to struggle with that problem? What tools do you need? What skills do you need? Are you looking for a training? What kind of project is actually in your passion pipeline to actually go in line with our strategy? And I think you have to manage people in a completely different way because it doesn't work. The coffee machine chitchat is not there anymore to make it happen.

I was listening recently to some of the training that Linda Jonas and Jason Lawrence and produced for our platform on remote working, and they talk about the cultivation mindset and they sum it up as saying the job of the leader or the manager is to create the right environment called the fertile ground for growth, and then to remove obstacles. And one of the things that we often do as managers and leaders is we try and point out mistakes, flaws, problems with their employees as opposed to just staying focused on how do we make sure that they have a fertile ground to grow and how do we make sure that we're moving obstacles and getting that out of the way. I wonder if you could take me back to our title for today and perhaps in your own words, contrast the difference between what you see as traditional TA and progressive ta.

Absolutely. So maybe just to finish on the point that we were discussing about, maybe something that was interesting is that when I started working in my role, you know, we always measure team satisfaction, which is, I think, a good way or at least to have a benchmark. And at the early beginnings of starting this journey, we were around 59% of team satisfaction, which is rather low. So you have to start from there now with this building on, on, you know, transparency, attitude, intention, and giving accountability in the floor and the opportunity to, to act, but also to fail, we have managed actually to get to a satisfaction rate which is oscillating between 82% and 89%, which is a good sign that we're going into the right direction. Now, I think if I answer to your question in simple words, we were running an activity that was event based. We go to events, we meet up with candidates, and we try to convert that into applications and into hires. Obviously, when you have to recruit hundreds if not thousands of people this way, it's a little bit time consuming. The return on investment, it's not immediate and it's super long term. You're building a relationship with candidates, they really enjoy that. But in the volatile world that we're living in, Candidates will never, ever wait for you again. And I think that was one of the key messages that I was saying is that you can have a very strong brand as we have because, you know, we have a very noble cause and people see it on day one and they experience that on day one. But they also have, you know, a life to go through and they have a career and they want to build actually that, not wait two or three years to build and start building because there's also, you know, the competition that is moving very fast. So we were in a position where we needed to change and we needed to change it fast. From an internal point of view, from an external point of view, bringing actually tools, new technologies. But also one of the most interesting but challenging part is obviously to bring people with you, which is for me the most complex part because you can have the best strategy. But if people are not following you because they don't believe in your strategy or because they don't actually see the meaning of doing that, it's not going to work. So we were actually in a multi layer problem where it was super important for us also to finish one chapter, which was that kind of event approach, and then move to today, which is going to a more proactive way of doing talent attraction and talent acquisition and employer branding. And this is where actually we start introducing something that basically you, Johnny, you know extremely well, which is basic sourcing. Get into the, you know, in the, into the bloody, you know, bullion string world which is the basics, where to start. Then we start putting some, some kind of extra layers into this which is, you know, creating proactive pools of talent. Then we're now into market intelligence. So ideal situations where leadership leaders in the organization, they are a little bit like asking for advice. They don't know where to recruit, they don't know where the talent is. So my team now is able to deliver insights, data and advisory internally on where do you, where is the talent, where can you recruit it and actually what's the best location to do that. So we moved from a very passive approach of doing things into a very strategic and proactive way of doing that. And basically the next step is that we move from proactive to predictive. We want to actually get to the point where you don't even actually come to me saying, I need to recruit. I'll step, actually I will call for a meeting for you and I'll say, Johnny, actually your people could be leaving in less than six months or one year. Here's a shortlist, here's a Proposal for you to support your recruitment. What do you think? And this is a possible scenario that could happen. So this is where we want to go and it takes some time, but I think in two to three years we will be there. And that's at the scale of the icrc. It's super large, but it's super important.

Let me once again connect those two pieces like you did as well. I imagine whilst we can take the process and talk about it's great sourcing processes become better talent, advisors having better insights. If you have a team with an engagement score of 58, that's probably going to fail. So on the surface of it, you've mapped out exactly where any, I think modern TA team should be going towards those areas. But tell us a little about the engagement piece. How did you fix that? Because I imagine all those plans would not have worked if you didn't have an engaged team. A team in their 80s means this is going to work.

Right?

You've mentioned to me your attrition is down near zero. So what was it you think that made that work?

I think it's a combination around. There are several things that could be included in that answer. The first thing is that sometimes when you start pivoting teams, you some, some managers or some leaders believe that, you know, everyone needs to be somehow like convinced or on board or, you know, you have to buy the buying of everyone. When you start having and introducing this kind of a, I would say 360 change, it has to be extremely transparent and you have to accept that maybe 30% or maybe 40% of people are not going to follow you because actually they don't see it as a career progression. They don't actually see the meaning. You can bring the numbers, you can bring the data, you can bring the analysis, you can bring everything that actually is telling or supporting what you say at some point there is like profit and loss. You know that you're going to lose something in the process. And sometimes it's not about losing people but about giving that safe space of people saying, you know, I don't agree with this approach and with this strategy and that's, that's perfectly fine, it's okay to disagree. Then it's finding an agreement or okay, where do you want to go in your career and how can I help you as a manager in building your next step? And because you know the organization, the institution or any single company, you know, you have your goals, you need to meet them and you need to move forward. And at some point that kind of a very transparent and two ways collaboration with people to say, okay, maybe this time we're not working together hand in hand, but let me help you. Let me find something else for you. So I think it's a little bit of a trade off in not saying that this is where we go. You know, you take it or you leave it. I think it's a very old school of doing things. So this way may take longer than expected, but at the end you have two people being at least conscious and understanding the same topic at the same level. And that was something that was pretty much clear. And obviously, as you can imagine, I took people with me and some people were like, you know what this is, this next chapter is not for me. I'm going to be just looking something else. And I said, brilliant. How can I help? Let me know what can I do as a manager to help you go into the next move? And I think that's, that's basically, you know, there's no magic sauce or magic recipe. This is how I did it and it worked.

What does it take to be a recruiter for icrc? Because I imagine, of course, there's lots of things that just are required to.

Be a good recruiter anywhere.

But, you know, it is different. You know, you're not recruiting for software engineers to go build the next product. You're not recruiting for salespeople to sell more widgets. This is really affecting people's lives. I imagine you're talking to people through very, very personal things. You're dealing with a lot of stuff. Imagine it takes a very different type of character to do this. Well, can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about the character of individuals? The type of individuals were successful in recruiting in this type of environment.

So we have different people involved in the process. So we have recruiters, we have talent attraction officers. And there's a common denominator within all these people. And I think there's something that it's really important that as a recruiter or as a talent attraction officer at the icrc, you need to understand extremely quickly that you're not giving the chance to someone to move from one job to the other. Actually, you have to be very clear with people that their life is going to change, that, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not just another job. It's a, it's a life choice because you will find yourself in situations that you will reach your own limits as a human being. So it's not about how good you are, because we do recruit people with IT skills that go into the. In the field. Right. But it's not how good you are as a system administrator and changing servers. It's not how good you are into that coding thing, but it's about, you know, how good you are not only with that, but coping with stressful situations, how good you are about not having a comfy life at all, and how good you are in adapting to very volatile situations, how resilient you are. And it's also about, you know, how well do you know yourself and you know your own limits as a person. Because we have three pillars at the icrc and this is basically our DNA, which means that we are impartial, independent, and neutral. And you have to deliver the same support and humanitarian action to all the parties involved in the conflict, which means that you're going to also be reaching your limits in terms of personal values, because you most probably will be helping something that you disagree from a human ethical point of view. So it's not about your project that has changed a product. It's really about how well do you know yourself? Because this is going to change your life forever. It's not actually something that is going to be just a step in your career. So that's the kind of a difference in latitude that is completely different when, when you work at the ICRC as a recruiter. Nonetheless, we need to keep in mind that there is an external market of talent, so we cannot just actually, you know, keep going with nice stories and telling you how good we are. Because some people, they also see ourselves as a step in their career. We have people just coming in for, you know, two, three, four years and they live. So we have to also showcase the organization and the recruiters and the talent attraction officers, they also need to showcase the organization as a step in your career. So we have so many different. Also what I call the spectrum of motivation at the ICRC that they have to be able to see the difference between, you know, the humanitarian person that will do that for life and the person that will do this for just one or two years. And they, they go. So that's the, the kind of.

The spectrum that we have at the.

ICRC as a recruiter or as a talent instruction officer.

I absolutely love that phrase, spectrum of motivation. I haven't heard it before. I'm gonna steal it off you.

Please.

You can guarantee that. Because I think it is. It's so true. There isn't just one reason. And this is where organizations will come up with an evp, which is a list of things that they can say, these are the reasons why people will join us and how we can sell. But you have to really look at that spectrum of motivation. And although we talked about AI and you offered a different definition to the initialism, I think we also have to look at EI on the emotional intelligence of somebody to be able to understand, listen for, you know, that particular part of that spectrum of motivation and then to sell back to that or tell a story that will motivate somebody. That's a unique skill. You know, I find it, you know, talk about your development of a TA structure. My understanding is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Michelle, your team are still what we would call traditionally 360 degree recruiters. They're doing the finding and they're doing the selling and managing of the candidate flow. Do you ever think that could change in the environment you're in, considering how unique the roles are and the processes?

So if we, if we look at, you know, a traditional week that my team is going through. So on Mondays they will do sourcing for Sinhala interpreters while they are doing HTML coding for our career website. On Tuesdays they start a job market analysis for engineering province in Africa. And then the afternoon they run an event, a virtual event in front of 700 people live. On Wednesdays they work on a, you know, hyper targeted recruitment campaign. On Thursdays they will, they will be, you know, most probably confronted to very complex recruitment needs to deploy people in the field. And on Friday, wrapping up all that and planning the next week in terms of strategic development of our team. So I think, you know, what I have been trying to inject into our function is the fact that we have been doing three different things in one, which is multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary approach of talent attraction and talent acquisition. Which means that we always go actually and look for the best things that, you know, people do in marketing. We go and we see what's done best, you know, in terms of storytelling. We go and we see what actually people do best in business analysis or you know, like data visualization. And we try to package all that together so that when you bring value to the client, you know, it's like, my goodness, this is like incredibly high in terms of added value because I have the advisory, I have the deliverable and I have actually vision for the future. So I think from my perspective what I see is that our internal clients and customers are really buying 360 added value when you're not just delivering that job, you're delivering the data that goes with the job. You're delivering actually the context with that job. You know, the market actually, you know, actually how long that person is going to stay. Let me give you a concrete example. This morning we were having a discussion with Sao Paulo and they were delivering a job market analysis to internally and they were telling to our people analytics team, you know, your, your population stays less than one year in the job. So we need to adapt the job to make sure that we work on retention. Right. So it's going way beyond your job and having a holistic approach of your role, which means that as a manager you have to go super, super far, go and look for expertise in all disciplines, bring them back and then integrate that into the job to create more diversified functions. In terms of talent acquisition, I think.

It turns on its head the traditional model that modernization of TA means segmenting the roles, breaking them into different chunks, having specialists, which, yes, on an enterprise scale, absolutely might be the right approach, but it isn't the only approach. And to show that, you know, that deep specialism that comes from doing everything can be really beneficial, but also I imagine it's very motivating for the individuals. You get to, you know, touch every point of the hiring process. You go beyond the hiring process a lot. It probably attracts more senior people later in their recruiting career as well who really want to develop, maybe aren't interested or not primarily focused on managerial opportunities, are focused on really doing difficult, interesting and good work. I want to just kind of lastly ask you a couple of questions around, you know, the modernization piece. And you mentioned some tools earlier on, which is brilliant. If you had a open checkbook and you had all the project managers to implement your tools that you would want. Are there any kind of core tools, technologies that you have particular interest in that you'd love to focus more on, invest more in that you've plans for in the future categories perhaps, or solutions that you're thinking about.

Yeah, so obviously we're using social talent. Must have. No, apart from that, I think is, you know, it depends. Again, I'm coming back to where do you want to add value? I, I'm going through the difficult choice of having a very, very 360 role. And the fact that you have a 360 role, you have to have extremely good sourcing tools. You have to have a ATS that is able, you know, to, to do talent pipelining you. When it comes to market intelligence, you have to decide if you're going to Be doing reactive or proactive market intelligence, which means that you need to know and master the data of the different markets that you need to, to, to, to. To be as an advisor in terms of employer branding. When you are dealing with a spectrum of motivation that is so complex, the EVP is not anymore actually a solution for you. It's way more complex. So there's no tool that is going to be offering you a diverse approach to tap that kind of spectrum of motivation. And then when it comes to outreach, because we continue doing outreach, you know, last event that we did, we were having a thousand people connected just in one hour. So you don't manage an event the same way when you have 50 people, then a thousand people connected. So everything now is scaling up. So in terms of tools, for me, the first, you know, takeaway advice tip or anything is that where do you want to add value and how scalable you want your function to become? And we have been actually quite ambitious because we don't have a lot of budgets, resources and you know, when I say it, I mean it because you know, in the humanitarian sector, every single penny counts.

Right?

You know, I don't have the chance to build my entire reporting dashboard or cockpit into tableau. We do have it, but, but you know, it's too, actually we are so small in the organization that there's no resources for us. So, you know, you need to be extremely creative to create, to go from actually, you know, traditional Excel, Excel reporting to something that actually has, has, has become a benchmark in the organization in a sense that we wanted to make reporting great again. We did it with Excel and PowerPoint, but we created a very hyperlinked document that didn't cost anything. So I think sometimes we underestimate the investment that creativity can bring with simple tools such as Excel and PowerPoint. But then obviously, if you want to go that kind of extra mile, you need to invest. We have already a suite of different tools that we use. We're trying to integrate a really strong and global data market analysis tool with one of a big, big firm. Because this is a must have. You know, my dream is that every quarter every leader receives a report that tells him or her, you know, that's the status of the, the market. Here's your, your TA strategy for the next quarter. Boom. And that's it. So then we can start being proactive with people from that perspective. So that's a little bit like the takeaway. It really starts with where do you want to add value and be creative enough to start with the tools that you have and then go and buy the rest according to your own pocket of money.

I love that goes back to that entrepreneurial spirit and attitude you mentioned at the start of the show, which I think is so important. Michelle, we're at time. I really thank you for joining us. Thank you for working through the Internet connectivity problems we had at the start. It was great to have you rejoin and tell that story. It's an important story to tell and some insight into your team. I'm going to ask you to close with perhaps one more tip for our shortlist. Every week we ask our guests to offer their tip for our short list of tips. And this can be something from your own career that you've learned yourself through your own mistakes or those around you, or it's something that perhaps has been imparted to you by somebody else. But perhaps if you wouldn't mind sharing that tip with our audience.

Yeah, absolutely, Johnny. And I think my takeaway from this situation and in the current world that we're living in is that this is like a sort of a high scale experiment that we're living. And as a manager for the first time, I think the paradigm has completely changed. So it has become extremely difficult to be an efficient, human and people oriented manager today because the things have changed. And I think my takeaway has been to, you know, sometimes if you want to do more or exactly the same, stop talking about work, take care of people really, I mean in a very sincere and transparent way and start asking to yourself, you know, do I build trust on a daily basis? It's not about that chit chat thing about the, you know, the performance discussion. Every six months or every quarter, do you literally every single day build trust with your team, with your colleagues, with your peers at the end of every single discussion, what's actually the piece of trust that you have built with them? And did you pay attention to your intention and your attitude? Because things have changed a lot. So that will be my little secret takeaway and it has worked extremely well for me.

I think it's great advice for anyone, regardless of their role. If you're leading teams, influencing teams, supervising teams, managing teams, building businesses, building on scale to focus on that is absolutely the lesson we must learn from last year. Michelle, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon or evening for you, really appreciate your time. We'd love to have you on again on the show. Fantastic to have you on the show and we'll have you on again soon.

Thank you so much, Johnny.

And for everyone listening thank you so much for listening with us this week. I really hope you enjoyed the insight as to the International committee, the Red Cross and what the ICRC's mission is and really took from that insight as to how different recruiting can be. There are different models and look at the complexity of teams like ICRC's recruiting teams, but how they've innovated, how that entrepreneurial spirit to build and develop and mature as a team, even without necessarily the budgets. Do come join us next week for show 52. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be broadcast live, as I said, on LinkedIn and YouTube at 4pm UK time. That's 11am on the East Coast, 8am in the West coast of the US when Kingsley Aikens, the CEO of the Networking Institute, will be joining me to talk about, no going back, the future of networking. I first heard Kinsley Kingsley speak about oh 8, nine years ago to talk in Dublin. He blew me away as to his amazing insight and knowledge around networking and the power of networking. And I've seen business leaders from some of the biggest companies in the world sit there with their jaws wide open listening to Kingsley's fantastic advice. Really look forward to having on the show. If you are looking at how you build up your networking skills, which everyone should join us next week for our live show and you'll be able to ask Kingsley direct questions or check out our podcast which is going to be available on Wednesday evening on Apple, Spotify or wherever you find our podcasts. I hope you enjoyed the show. Hope you learned a little bit about what humanitarian aid organizations like ICRC do and what the role of recruiter is there. I'm sure if you're interested in finding about a career with the icrc, Michelle will be delighted to hear from you and we'll hear from you next week. Thanks for listening.