How to Understand the Complicated Relationship of Performance and Potential | with Joanna Fennell

Foreign. Well, hello and welcome to the Shortlist with Johnny Campbell. Welcome back. It's 2021. We survived. Hopefully you survived. Hope we survived through the Christmas holiday period through 2020. Whether you see it as that hell of a year or that amazing year that everything changes, changed and accelerated. Hey, we're in a new year, it's 2021 and guess what? The pandemic is still here and we still have loads more to talk about. And yes, people are still at the forefront of our organizations and in fact, you could argue they're, they're more prominent with more issues, more transformation, more change happening than ever. So we've got a years full of amazing topics and guests to keep you occupied and interested. Where can you find us? If you're watching us live right now, you're probably on YouTube or LinkedIn. We broadcast every Wednesday at 4pm UK time. But you could addition to our podcast, which you'll find on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. But if you'd like to know what our lineup of shows looks like for the next few weeks, or you want to delve into some of our back catalog, you can check us out@socialtalent.com the shortlist or browse through the litany of previous episodes in your podcast player and find one of them there. And if you like us, you might as well give us a five star review. And if you don't like us, delete us. Pretend we didn't exist, but do not give us a bad review. I will find you and track you down. So that brings us on to this week's show and this week's topic. And it's a great topic, really interesting one actually, and appropriate for this time of year as you get to year end reviews which many of you may be giving. Maybe you're sitting in on as well, or maybe you're having your own year end review. And that is to understand and get our heads around what is the often complicated relationship between performance and potential. And joining us this week we have Joanna Fennell, who's VP and global HR business partner at Flex. If you don't know Flex, one of the largest organizations in the tech industry in the world. And Joanna's been a good friend of social talent over the years and has been someone who's always, I felt, had a really keen opinion on HR issues and talent issues. And I'm keen to understand. Joanna, first of all, welcome to the show. I'm hoping you can maybe introduce everybody to you. Who are you? Where are you joining us from as well and why this theme really appeals to you and why you'd like to talk more and hear more perhaps from our live listeners on this as well. So Joanna, over to you. Where are you, where are you joining us from? Give us a bit of background. Tell me why this topic.

Sure. So I'm joining from Sacramento, California actually outside of Sacramento, California. I live in a small community that you've never heard of and you know, I've been in the HR space for 25 years. I've done a variety of things within HR. Um, and recently just finished up a four year working in talent acquisition and I've moved back to the HR business partner space and as I joined back, you know, really came in right as we were going through our talent review process and have had a lot of discussions with managers and leaders around talent development, around performance and separating out that performance to, to potential. So it's, it's a topic that I have had numerous conversations over the last 25 years with leaders, with myself, with my own team and really very passionate in this space.

I'm confident we're not going to solve it, but I'm confident we're going to have a good discussion on it, that's for sure. Well, listen, before we get into that, you know what, it's been a heck of a year. There's fresh news. It's time for the news. So getting into our first news article that we, we dug out in the last week and of course there's, you know, this time of year is full of lists, Joanna. Right. But this is a pretty, pretty good one from our friends at People Matters based out of India. I actually spoke at one of their trade, their trade shows many, many years ago and a great bunch of people who have a great blog and some great writers like Jacob Morgan who's written this one on the evolution of hr. So it's kind of sitting back and looking at the last year and he's arguing that we're moving finally from filling gaps in jobs to unlocking human potential with a big list of perhaps strides, strides we've taken over the last year if not many years forward in the area of human resources. Anything in this that particularly jumped out at you in the list and I'll call out a few of them in a second. Joanna. But anything that kind of you thought was. Yeah, that really resonates with me. I'm seeing that or anything you say. I think maybe he's being a bit too over optimistic on.

You know what? I love what he wrote about. I think it's a transformation that HR has been taking really over the last decade or more. In some companies they're more progressive, some leaders are more supportive of this. But it's becoming much more common and I'm really, really excited about it. The things that I thought were really, that resonated with me was that we're being asked to mentor and coach and give feedback. You know, I support a number of presidents and they're constantly asking me, how did I do? What can I do better? You know, what are you hearing? They are looking to me to partner with them to help make them better leaders. And that's just such a wonderful place to be in. And it's just such a dynamic space. To really be able to influence and impact the organization and individuals is just amazing.

Yeah, I think that that's a really important step forward. Right. It's a good way to measure it is that the, the HR team are being seen as consultants around people. It's like if you have a question around people, their development, how to deal with an issue, the hiring of those individuals, development of those exiting, it's like bringing the experts. And I think Angus point. One of the points maybe I got from the article was maybe in the past that that level of expertise only extended to the legalities. Where do I legally sit almost, you know, what are our rights here as opposed to how do I, you know, get more for my people, how do I, you know, develop this person, how do I nurture a replacement or whatever, which is so much more. Why, why do you think that's happened? Like, what's been the catalyst? Like it's been happening before COVID hasn't it?

Yeah, it definitely has been happening before COVID I think a huge catalyst of it is just the, the shift between the companies being able to just pick and choose whoever they want and thinking like, you know, it's our choice to really the candidate having that control. Now that we're a global, you know, economy, global companies. I think I remember one of your quotes from the social talent training. The war on talent is over and talent has won and that's really, has been the case. So now companies have realized that they just because they have a job and they're going to pay somebody, that doesn't mean they're going to hire someone and keep them and that they are realizing they have to make sure it's the right fit, that they have to provide opportunities, development. And so, you know, the typical older. I think what you would have seen like in the 50s, 60s and 70s just doesn't exist anymore. And you know, really the talent is the. Are the individuals who are making the decisions on where they want to work rather than companies these days.

Yeah, I think when you have a strong employment market and the ability to move and transfer your skills relatively easily, this is what happens. You know, the same way I have always used the anecdote of, you know, coffee stores, right. If you are the only coffee store in town, you can serve pretty crappy coffee and you don't have to have free WI Fi, you don't even have to have seats. People just come and get coffee because you're the only show in town. But once you open up 20 coffee stores, you got to up your game. You got to have WI Fi, you got to have foosball tables, you got to offer, you know, discount cards, you got to have premium roast, you got to add snacks as well. Like this is what happens. And employers are the coffee shops in that sense. You know, people have the freedom to move around and they will, you know, in demand skill and skills in demand talent. You, you can't just pay them because again, you don't just go, you just buy the cheapest coffee. Right?

Right.

The converse of that is you don't just work for the employer with the biggest paycheck. You've got to have the other stuff there as well. I really liked some of the stuff that did resonate with me, particularly around the 2020 aspect or angle of this, is that I think the whole world is lent on people, experts in the last nine to ten months in particularly, Joanna. And if you agree with this, because, you know, and we started the conversation before we went live talking about, you know, workplace stress and you mentioned some of the initiatives you've ran internally in Flex to try and bring speakers in and run events around that. And I think that has been a big thing, you know, how to onboard somebody, how to manage somebody, how to deal with the stress that people have had, you know, being forced to, if it hasn't been something you've done in the past, really kind of cross that line between work and home. Because people have little ones perhaps, or older ones in their homes they're caring for. And it does impact work and you have to address it. You got to deal with it, you got to help them. And people are working through a lot of stress and have been in their now second or third or fourth wave of COVID Do you think? So has that been a particularly maybe relevant thing to hammer home the role of HR in being People, experts.

Yeah, because it really required all companies, managers to come up with and use different skills. You know, how do you keep a team engaged? How do you really understand how people are doing? How do you help them deal with stress? How do you provide flexibility? Because now their kids are home so you know, a four year old is going to walk in the room and say hey, I'm hungry or things like that. And so HRs, you know, what I've seen from my own and from colleagues in other companies, we been really tasked to partner with managers to help them think differently and come up with different programs and ideas of keeping connection, keeping engagement, keep driving performance. But we're also seeing just this really big shift to focus on emotions. How are people doing? Because people are so stressed out and it is great to have Zoom or WebEx or other types of formats where you can see people visually, but they're just you, you're losing that physical interaction and that physical connection still to a great extent. And how do you make up for that and how do you help people who are, who are in need of that but can't get it at the moment. So it's been, it's been, you know, it's been great to be in hr, to be able to help people and really sit, sit down and coach individuals and managers. And I think the need for HR right now is always important, but even more so in Covid times I'm going.

To jump on that word you used, emotions. And quickly say hello and thank you to Stephen o' Donnell who's chatting live saying Happy New Year to us. Happy New Year to you, Stephen. And just a quick reminder, anyone watching or listening live, you can join the chat and conversation on YouTube or LinkedIn. Join us and ask any questions for Joanna or myself for your contributions and thoughts around today's topic of performance versus potential, we'd love to hear from you. I'm going to move on to our second article again on emotions because this came into it in this Harvard Business Review article published just before Christmas on why capable people are reluctant to lead. I personally find this really fascinating. They examined the what they felt were the three big themes or big reasons why capable people can be reluctant to lead. I think this is much more in the wheelhouse of our, of our conversation today are those three kind of things. And I'm going to call them out just for the benefit of those who don't have the article in front of us. Right. So the authors identified three kind of risks. Interpersonal risk, image risk and the risk of being blamed as being the three big factors that perhaps led to people not wanting to lead even if they perhaps are capable. Interpersonal, you know, what will other people think? And relationship wise. Image risk. I saw interpersonal risk and image risk as having a huge overlap. If I'm going to be honest with you, I couldn't make and risk of being blamed. It's kind of like owning the problem or owning the department. You know, of course, one attitude, the glass half full is I'll get the rewards of our success. But the other is the glass half empty. What if it all goes wrong? It's not. Is it on me? Are these, are these kind of two or three themes, ones that you have seen yourself in your career and would. Would agree with and are there any others that maybe the authors here. Missed. Missed.

Yeah. So. So when I read the article, it really made me think about early career. You know, as I was starting to become and move into management level, my first promotion to a manager, I had a peer who was also kind of on that track, but in a different area. So we weren't competing with each other. But I got the promotion to be the manager of the department and my peer did not. And that, that I did realize, wow, that creates some, some awkwardness. She felt slighted. And so, you know, I did see that. But it really helped me understand the type of relationship that I wanted to have with the people I work with versus my friends in personal life. So I do think especially more early career that does exist. And then, and then after that it really is based on how the leader is driving opportunity and development. You know, I've certainly worked under leaders who like competition in a bit more of a fighting against each other. And then that does still produce a lot of this, right? One person becomes the manager or the next leader and the other one feels slighted. And you know, do they stay? Do they go? But I've also seen a lot of leaders that have done really well and have created an encouraging environment. And then when, when things happen and promotions occur, they're, they're very positive. So for instance, I switched out of talent acquisition. I had a clear successor, you know, and the team, my team rallied around my successor and have been super supportive, very thrilled, very engaged. And it has been extremely positive both for the organization as a whole and their continued performance. And so I think a lot of it is based on the culture and the man and the leaders within the organization.

We've had Dr. Bev Kay on the show before and she's rejoining us later this month. And one of her books that she wrote, great book is called up is not the Only Way. I think she's publishing her, her latest edition of it in the next couple of months. And you know, Bev, Bev got me thinking about this, this, this idea that a lot of people have. I think a lot of, lot of leaders, perhaps maybe less mature, less experienced leaders, think that, you know, you want to reward somebody, give them more opportunity, you're going to promote them, right? I think this is at the heart of perhaps this issue, right? They've kind of expanded my definition, certainly with, you know, she gave me seven categories. Are these high level categories of ways you can give more person, give somebody more opportunity only. And one of those is upward mobility, right? You can work on, you can give them assignments, projects. There's loads of different things you could, you can do with somebody. Mentoring opportunities, coaching opportunities. And you know, I did, I did look in that article, the HBR article and one of the remedies or ways they mentioned, you could perhaps get around the issues. They talked about giving life experiences of leadership as ways to, to let someone put their toe in the water, so to speak, to see, to see if they want to do it, but also to see if they're, if they have that potential as opposed to just making that decision. Like you. I was given a promotion two years into my recruiting career to be the manager of the team, or maybe less, because I was the biggest biller. Right. Was that the right decision? I, I, maybe I ended up being a good manager or maybe not. But the decision to promote me, I know, was poor. I was just the big, the biggest biller. Right? So therefore I was moved up and that wasn't. I've seen that in other areas in, in my personal career, but that's been just the wrong call, right? Y People, people who worked with me will probably argue with the wrong call in my case as well, Joanna. Right, but, but, you know, that is traditionally what people have done. You take the most successful person from a, from a, let's say performance perspective, and let's give them the shot, right, at leading and managing. So, so what is that critical difference or, you know, in your opinion or the research you've looked into, you know, what percentage of people do you think who are high performers also have high potential? Is there any data you've looked at on that?

You know, from my own experience, I would say probably about 35% of the people who are high performers are also high potential. Um, you know, in some groups, depending on the leaders and what they're doing to develop their people, you might see a pos, a plus or minus in that figure. Um, but. But there's lots of reasons for that. There's reasons about them individually and their own personal choices. You know, I know when I had kids, I put a slowdown on my career so I could spend some time and focus on them as they were growing up. And they're. They're much older than this, by the way. And, you know, then there's also the other pieces of it. And so, you know, to your point, Johnn, the decision to promote you, while I think you're fabulous and you've done a great job, wasn't the right reason. Right. And we need to create opportunities for people. One of the things I've done historically I call extra credit assignments. And that's where as a leadership team, my team, we get together and we discuss what are the major projects, things that we want to change within our organization. And we then open them up to, to the team and say, hey, who wants to work on this project? Who wants to be the lead on the project? Who wants to take different pieces of ownership and activity? Because it does exactly that. What Bev was talking about. It gives people an opportunity to raise their hand safely. There's still somebody who is taking care and making sure it's going well. It gives them a chance to get exposure to other areas. And then it also gives people a chance to have leadership experiences and then think about what they liked and what they didn't like about their approach. And so it's been a fabulous thing. We're doing that at Flex. We call it Gigs at Flex. And so you see it a lot in the gig economy. And a lot of companies are actually adopting kind of that approach of opening up projects to larger populations than they typically have done in the past. And I think that's just a huge way to understand and see potential.

Yeah. We, Peter Hogg from Schneider Electric, join us in early December, I think our penultimate show of the year. He shared what Schneider have done and think they launched a project, a piece of software that fronts this at the beginning of 2020 that enables people to find those opportunities and also to advertise our post, those opportunities where you kind of work a certain percentage of your time on this project for a fixed period and, and gain that experience. I think there are great ways to perhaps test who is the 35%, but do you think it also would expand the 35% if there was more of that in companies, More of What you guys are doing. Peter's online. Hey, Peter, do you think if there's more of that kind of gigs at Flex and others and what Schneider doing in more companies, do you think it could open that pool more? Do you think when we define who are the third of the folks who have that potential, is it because they haven't had the opportunity to express that? Do you think from a more optimistic perspective, could that be a bigger, you know, could we grow our cohort of people who could have potential by giving them those opportunities?

Yeah, you know, there. I think everyone wants to be successful, right. They want to grow, they want to learn, they want, you know, maybe they say, hey, I don't want to lead 100 people. And that's great. But why I even started with extra credit assignments and I encourage it in the, in the businesses I work with. And now gigs at Flex is typically what companies do and what leaders do is they know, an individual or two individuals. These people get it done. And so they always go to them and that's wonderful for them. It gives them the experience. They're really growing and learning. But you have all these other people have capabilities that you just aren't necessarily aware of all their capabilities. So I like the idea of opening up projects and saying, who wants to be involved? One, because they're raising their hand, they're saying, hey, I'm interested. Sometimes, yes, I do actually go to someone say, I want you on this project. I think because of these reasons, you should be. But that's giving me visibility. That's giving my leaders visibility to a lot more people than our typical go to. And that's then enabling us to raise up a lot more people because they're, you know, more people are getting exposure than the typical one or two.

So if we have listeners today who are heading into performance reviews with their teams. Right. They're kind of beginning of the year, as a lot of us do, or they're maybe just end of a quarter. What advice would you give them on how to identify individuals who have that high potential and separate them from those just being really good performance performers for the last period.

Yeah. So I've been, you know, a couple of areas that I always think about and the questions that I ask myself for, for my own performance when I look and write my own self review that I look at for my teams and when I have conversations with leaders is what if? What have I done that moves the needle? Have I maintained status quo or am I actually changing my job because I'm changing what we're doing how we're doing it. Um, so that's one piece. Like if they're maintaining status quo, then they're performing. But if they're really actually trying to drive and make life better for the customer, make life better for themselves or for the team from a work environment, then that's saying, okay, look, they're looking at it differently, they're thinking creatively, they're being more and heading more in that route of strategy rather than just taking things as they are. I also very much look at how it got done was, you know, yes, some, you know, I've seen a lot of people where they've delivered the results, they've met the deadline, but they've left a wake of people damaged. And so, you know, are they not only successful in managing up, but are they also successful managing, you know, horizontally and below them? And so that's another critical piece from, from my perspective. And then your typical, you know, everyone hears this, the learning, agility, are they able to understand and grasp new concepts, work on projects that they're not necessarily the subject matter expert on and also do they display emotional intelligence? I think those are really critical pieces that I look at and that when, when I'm in a conversation reviewing talent and talking about potential, those are the four questions I ask.

We got a comment in from Peter, from Schneider saying he looks for, in his team, he looks for his team to write a balanced appraisal, not just a sales pitch. Self awareness and critical thought is important and shows potential. I think you'd probably agree with that as well.

Oh totally. Yeah. And I think that naturally comes when you're challenging the status quo. Oftentimes that means you're challenging yourself in the status quo. What, you know, when am I, how have I improved myself? What are the areas I need to develop in? Yeah, I think status quo is both yourself and the work that you're doing.

Well, so tell me about, you know, you know, again on the topic of, you know, being it being January, we're broadcasting this. You're in a performance review or you're heading into one and you a fair idea of whether this person is going to be a high potential or just a high performer. But the person perhaps who's high performer, you think is somebody who sees themselves as a high potential individual and they're therefore probably expecting to be rewarded for this achievement of performance with an upward opportunity.

Yeah.

How do you address that? What are some good tactics to deal with those issues? Do you even leave it as late as the performance review or Maybe you're just, you're trying to do things much earlier to try and try and head that off.

Yeah, I think if you're having a performance conversation and the person is surprised, then as a manager, like I've failed if I feel that people should know very, very clearly where they are throughout the process. Because besides the fact that goals change, priorities change. Covid is a perfect example. What we thought we were going to be doing this last year is completely changed because of COVID And if you don't adjust and help your team adjust, that's an issue. So I really do believe that you have to have regular conversations. I very supportive of really, you know, opening that conversation, building that trust which takes over time to really understand what are people's interests, what do they want to do, but also having those conversations of being really honest about where, where the growth areas need to be for them to be ready for that next level. And if you have those conversations and walking into the performance review or the, or annual refraction or whatever you call it is really more of a repeat of conversations that you're having, at least quarterly, if not, you know, regular, you know, more regular than that.

Great question in from Sarah Jane Walker and she's asking Joanna, do you think that 360 reviews are beneficial so that the individual can see what others feel about their performance too?

I do. I think Sometimes people use 360s as a corrective and I don't agree with 360s being used as a corrective. I think 360s need to be used to really help fine tune individuals and really give them the visibility to maybe some of the things that they were kind of aware of that they need to improve on or were just completely blind to. I think it also very much though depends on who's selected. So making sure you have a good breadth of people, not just people who are going to say you're great, but people who are going to be really honest and say, yes, you do a good job, but here's some things that you need to give feedback for. So I've delivered 360s work with people. Sometimes I see 360s that are fantastic because those who are contributing have really contributed. And I've seen 360s that haven't been very helpful because nobody gave any comments. They wrote all wonderful ratings and you know that, you know, just like any sports star, actor, you know, nobody's perfect. There's always places for us to work.

Yeah, I'm always concerned personally about the politics of 360s. You know, you know, do you work in an environment where your genuine opinion is going to be trusted and will it be held against you by your boss and never. How candid can you be? What's the culture and the rest of the business around that? But I do agree that, you know, I used to look at Glassdoor ratings of CEOs and you see the odd CEO got 100. You went, well, that's nobody's perfect. How can you have 100% rating? There's definitely something up. You know, you have to have something wrong to make them genuine. Otherwise you've got this robot that you're working for.

Well, and you read those Glassdoor reviews and for any company, some people are saying great work life balance. Other people are saying horrible work life balance. You know, it just, it depends on one's perspective. It depends on one's job. So there's, there's a whole variety of degrees. We could have a whole conversation on Glassdoor.

Oh, geez, we, we could go to town on that. That could be a whole show. That would be fun, as I think it was. Bill Borman once said to me, you know, it's, it's full of crazies. People are crazy for the company and crazy against the company. There's nobody in the middle left there.

Yeah.

And that may be generally kind of a comment on review sites and reviewing in general. It's like most people in the middle just don't care enough to bother, you know, it's fine. And they just leave it at that, you know, which, which, which is always, was always an interesting indicator. So, so when you look at, when you look at the, the, the high potentials, what, what, what are the key things to, to consider about high potentials? Because obviously, if you recognize them as a high potential, if you don't have the opportunity for them, surely they're a massive risk, a flight risk to the organization because they're probably going to know how valuable they are. Because this, this, this, this, this whole conversation is probably framed in the context of, you know, there aren't enough really quality leaders in the world. And we all want better leaders and better leadership skills in our organizations. So how do you manage that? In your experience, what good advice have you received in the past about, you know, managing the expectations of genuinely high potential people when there isn't necessarily an upward mobility opportunity available for them?

Yeah. So, I mean, high potentials are great. I honestly, as the manager said, I don't necessarily want an entire population of high potential because they're a lot of Work, but wonderful work, right? So what I've tried to do and what I encourage leaders to do is then you have to create opportunities for them, right? And if you can't do it, then you need to find others who can also be a sponsor for your potential. So for example, I had a gal who used to work for me in a different space, different area, and she really wanted to gain experience in the talent review process through the talent management organization. And it wasn't my area of responsibility, wasn't even close to what I was doing. And so as her sponsor, I went to that group and said, hey, I know it's coming up, can she participate with you guys? I'm going to let her spend 20% of her time working on this with you if you're, you know, open to it. And they were open to it. And I made that commitment and that sacrifice to let her spend 20, 20% of her time looking and learning on that. So I think, you know, one piece for managers is you're not alone, right? It takes a community to raise the kid. It takes a community to provide opportunities to employees. And if all you're thinking is if what can I do individually in my scope, in my role, my responsibility? You're going to really struggle with high potentials and giving them more. But if you look at a broader organization, so for me, hr even the business and open doors for people to learn and develop, then high potentials get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

I think what I'm hearing from this, and I've heard this a lot in the last nine months, Joanna, is, you know, it's a full time job being a manager, right. You know, you know, being a leader or manager, you have to, these are the things that you're, you do, right? I think some, you know, more junior managers think it's a case of I'm just the person in charge and I make decisions. You actually gotta, you gotta, you gotta find these opportunities for your folks. It's not acceptable to go well. There's no promotion. So you know, tough. You got to work across different teams. You got to do what you mentioned there in the example, you know, finding another opportunity with a different team, a colleague, and going and begging for someone to help your high performer, knowing that they're going to make a great contribution to that team. There is work involved. This. And many managers probably only woke up to this fact for the first time in Covid because they got away with not really managing for so long because maybe they, they weren't high potentials. In the first place, when they were last promoted, they were just really good performers, which gets the heart of the problem. I have another great question in here. Many companies look for a bell curve distribution to performance ratings. This can leave many good performers feeling demotivated. Do you have any advice on that issue? I don't know if you're familiar with many companies who've done that. I know some who've done that as well. But any advice to the impact of that?

Yeah, I mean, that's a big Jack Welch GE thing that they started way back in the day that lots of companies have adopted. I see a lot of companies moving away from it to a great extent. Not the hard, fast, you know, 30% or 20% in your high potential. Let me do my math. 70% in the meets requirements and 10% not performing. Right. I do think it is good to direct people because if, because if you don't have some type of guidance, what you're going to see is managers taking an easier route of just overinflating everybody because then it makes the conversation easier and that that's a management issue. So let's acknowledge that when managers do that, that's a management issue. It's a poor management issue. But you need to have some type of guidance to say here is what is more of the norm and what you should be looking for. Because you do need to separate out and compare who are the really high performers, what have they done differently and then who are meeting requirements. Which is still fantastic, by the way. But I think we all look at it and remember from grade school and from, you know, that I don't, you know, the. I know in the US an average is a C, which means like you, you kind of performed. And I know a lot of people, especially younger in their career, always look and say, well, Mets requirements is a C. Like I only got a C. What about an A? And so you have to really kind of change that mindset.

Yeah, I guess it does speak to the, perhaps the performance, the performance model you have in place. What does that look like? You know, I know we, we use okrs here in Social Talent and we look to measure against OKRs, which, you know, leaves you at, you know, you're doing great if you get over 80% towards those AKRs. Okay. Provided they were defined correctly and they were set as reasonable stretch goals. Again, we got to make sure that that's there. I guess the, you know, you can't just go in and look at, look at the selection process in isolation. You have to look at it in the context of what is your performance management process in your organization, what system you use? Is that fit for purpose? Is it part of the Jack Welch generation, which I agree to you, I agree with you. Is going. Thankfully, you know, I grew up with, you know, I was of the age as a teenager given business books. I was told that Jack Welch philosophy. I was given his big hardback book, actually I won a prize in business and was given his book to read which now I look back and go that was a really bad decision for someone to give a 16 year old kid learning business. You know, there's a philosophy of Jack Welsh. He's amazing. Not really, it turns out. Yeah, yeah, not at all. But I think there's a lot of that legacy type of thinking that still exists. Right. And you and, and we speak about progressive companies and, and, and non progressive companies but the reality is you have a company full of lots of progressive people, but there's still going to be non progressive people and poor.

Yep. Yeah.

No one does it perfectly. So what do you think? If you're trying to cultivate the right leadership attributes, let's focus for a second on the individual. And not perhaps the manager who's trying to make the assessment, but the individual. And going back to the HBR article we started the hour with where they may have hesitance or reluctance to lead. What advice would you give individuals who perhaps do have an aspiration? Because I think you do have to have an aspiration to, to have to move up to a more senior role. Right. There's no point in trying to force that on somebody. But if somebody has even the inkling of that aspiration, what advice would you give to somebody in terms of to help them perhaps test out whether it's right for them or to get more experience or exposure if it's not necessarily being given to them by a great manager like yourself? Joanna, if you don't have that, that that great a manager or they just don't have the experience or background of this, how can an individual go about creating a better environment for themselves?

So I'm a big one on observation. I think that I like to observe and so I don't necessarily make the same mistakes. My, I could tell you hundreds of times where I observed my older sibling, the mistakes that, that he made and I was like, okay, I'm not going to do that. So I think first off, observing leadership skills styles is a good one. Especially when you're early trying to figure out what it is, you know, looking and saying okay, what are the things I like and what are the things I don't like as an employee? And then also observing what is making one person successful versus another, you know, I think it's also finding the right mentor and sponsor. So if your manager isn't the supportive manager that's helping you and that where you feel safe, finding others around who are in leadership positions, in manager positions that you can go and talk to and discuss these types of things is really, I think, very critical and very important. And then, you know, again, raising your hand and saying, okay, well, hey, let me. I'd like to try this, you know, and trying to take that step forward. But at the same point in time, if you do have a manager who isn't supportive, honestly, I think one of the things a person should really consider is maybe changing managers and finding some other job, hopefully in your same company, but. Or just recognizing, you know, this culture, this manager, it's not going to be conducive of me growing and learning and expanding in a safe, nurturing environment. So therefore you might need to consider something else. And that, unfortunately, is the reality.

I think that tip around coaching is particularly good. I'd add to that perhaps that, you know, don't necessarily see it as a too formal thing. You know, sometimes people go, well, how do I formally go find myself a coach? You guys start with coffee or a virtual coffee with a different leader and go, hey, could you help me with one particular issue that can become a coaching mentor relationship, but it can start quite informally. In fact, often starts much more informally than approaching your boss and say, I need a formal coach. Might be a, might be the exact type of confrontation you want to avoid in the first place.

Right.

Mightn't work out well. Confrontation that came up in that article as well. Right. This is, this is a big issue, I think, for, for leaders. And, and when I look at the difference in potential and, and performance, you know, I think to have high potential as a leader, you need to get comfortable with conflict.

You do.

I think that's one of the biggest obstacles a lot of people have and a lot of high potentials I would argue have. When I, when I look at the two starting points of the HBO article where they talk about, you know, your self image and your relationships really you're talking about is you don't want to get into arguments. You want to keep the status quo, be friends and happy with everyone because you're not comfortable with conflict. Yeah, I don't mean that you're aggressive. I don't mean that People have to be aggressive. Getting comfortable. Conflict is a very different thing. What are some of the ways that you've seen, either personally or in others that work to try and really begin testing your comfort level with conflict and get experience with that and come out, come out on top the other side.

Yeah. So one thing as a leader is I think it's very important that employees specifically have conversations with the individual that they may be having conflict with. And so one of the things I've always instituted is, look, if you have an issue with somebody, have you, you know, if you're going to come to me, my first question is, have you had a conversation? And if you haven't had a conversation and you're just coming to me for coaching, I'll coach you, but you're going to have that conversation. And if you're not, then we're not going to talk about this because it's not fair to the other individual. For me personally too, what I approach it and how I approach it is, look, I want everyone to be the best person that they can be, to have the best experience, the most positive. And I truly, genuinely believe that people don't want. And they want positive relationships. They want to perform when they're not performing, they know it, and they're pretty miserable. And so while having and starting that conversation can be painful, it ultimately is going to result in something better where either it's going to produce change in that individual and they're going to see and be able to improve and continue to grow and show potential, or in some situations where you really have to say, look, you're not happy here, it's not working here, let's have the real conversation, say, hey, this, this, we need to end this, right? And so when I went from the approach of I want it, I want to help the person, they're likely in some situations aware of the issue and it's causing stress. And me coming in a partnership and in helping standpoint, one sets it right in how I talk to them, how my emotions are and how they feel, or at least how I'm projecting. And then it's up to the individual. Do they want to hear it, do they want to accept it, do they want change, or do they want to stay as they are?

Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. And it comes back to a theme of, you know, great potential usually always starts with the employee showing something more, as you said, that they are willing to get uncomfortable, they're willing to stretch. And yes, you can have a really good manager who encourages that, brings that out in you. But I think, you know, ideally you have both, right? You have an employee who wants to stretch and wants to put their hand up and she's willing to get into uncomfortable situations and try harder and bring more to the table. And you ideally have a manager who's willing to do the same, who's willing to pull it out of you, support you, do more with you. But in the absence of a good manager doing that, you need to show that you will have that initiative. And if it's not being picked up by the business and your manager ignores it and other leaders ignore it. Yeah, you've got to move on, right? You got to, you got to find somewhere else where they'll appreciate that. But it is a, it is a two way street. And I think that's, to me, you know, does come back to the fundamental question of what is the difference? Because when I first started thinking about this issue, differencing high potential and just, you know, high performance, what I really wanted to not, not agree with anybody on, with you or anybody else was that people either are in one box or the other. I really would like to, maybe this is foolish aspiration. I'd like to think that you are only in one box at a particular point in time, in that particular context. And you could, high potential, could be, could become somebody without potential in a different environment. But equally somebody who is a high performer may not be a high potential right now for this role in this environment, but could change. They could be brought into that area with the right coaching, the right mentoring, the right showing, you know, someone showing them the way, the right environment or a different leader. But likewise, somebody might decide because of personal circumstances, they're just not, not available to lead anymore. They need to prioritize something else. It isn't, it isn't a fixed mindset. They were not saying that you are in one box or the other.

Agreed, totally agree with that.

So I'm gonna, We've managed to kind of rattle through that and hit time already. Joanna, which brings us to that point in the show where I ask all our guests if they could make a contribution to our shortlist, our shortlist of advice for our listeners and our audience. And so I'm going to put it back to you and I've asked you lots of, for lots of advice and you've generously given it throughout the last 45 minutes. So I'm going to ask for one more and that is perhaps if you can share with us a piece of advice. You'd like to share with our audience that either has been passed on to you or you have managed to harness from your experience today that you'd like to pass on to others. What would that be, Joanna?

You know, I think one of the things that has enabled me as a leader and that has propelled me even from the potential perspective is being very comfortable with having smarter people in the room, having smarter people work for me. I've taken over a lot of different areas that I've never been the subject matter expert in and have really looked for my teams to know more. And so I think, you know, for one piece is if you want to continue to progress and grow, you need to surround yourself with very smart people, both as peers, those above you and those below you. And the more you're hiring and bringing on smart people who have drive, who are thinking differently, being creative, are diverse, that's going to give you so much more learning and is really going to help in the overall performance of your organization in its growth. So, you know, to kind of. And we didn't even talk about that, but I do think that the people around you are so, so critical both in getting the feedback and learning and utilizing and leveraging them to accomplish objectives that, that's a huge piece to, to walk away from or walk away with.

I think it's excellent advice and you know, it's easily you can read that piece of advice and go, yeah, yeah, quite easily. It does quite. Take a lot of maturity and self reflection to get it does. You can, you can actually do that. And I've always used my analogy in terms of leadership has always been, you know, you look at, you know, professional or non professional sports, you know, amateur sports like the Olympics, when you have a coach, the coach isn't the best athlete. You know, the team is, you know, is full of amazing athletes. Again, literally Olympic stars. The coach's job is to bring the best out in them and they work with people who are better than them. But that's that their job isn't to be the best at those things. Their job is to get the best out of those individuals and get the high performance. I think it's when you get, when you finally get comfortable with that, it's there. It's much easier to hire people who are better than you. You can get into that mindset, but sometimes it takes a whole career and a lot of people just never make it there. They just never have that potential.

Yeah, I mean my teams have constantly told me what I should be doing and it's fantastic. It's great because they have a stake in the game. They're developing and I'm leveraging them and it's just always been good. I think that's a huge piece, but yeah, is a great example.

Well, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here. Morning time, your time joining us from Sacramento. Thanks so much for sharing that advice. I hope that was really helpful for our audience. And I was, I, I personally found it usually helpful as a leader that I can take a bunch of your advice. You've managed through many, many different situations in very large, complex teams and different roles and you've been someone who's taken that personal risk and has had that ambition. So thank you so much for joining us and we'd love to have you back in the show, Joanna.

Absolutely. It was great to be here. Thanks everyone.

Not at all. And happy New Year. We'll be back next week with another show. You can find out more@socialtalent.com the shortlist and joining us next week, I'm glad to announce the return of, and I mentioned it earlier on the fabulous Dr. Beverly K. And Bev will be joining me again to talking about Love him or Lose Them, exploring the A to Z of management. And so you know, Bev's going to come back and probably touch on some of the same topics we talked on today. But do you know what? We talked about them with Peter back in December, with others previously because management and leadership is important and particularly when we talk about, you know, the, the, the concept of you gotta love them because if you don't, you will lose them. And not a lot of people are comfortable about using that word love in a business context, you know, because maybe it's sometimes used in the wrong context. But Bev is going to share with us her learnings from the research she's done and the companies, individuals she's worked with when she joins us next week, the 13th of January. You can join the live show at 4pm UK Irish time. That is 11am on the east coast of the US, 8am on the west coast of the US or late at night if you're in Apac. Or you can check it out on our podcast which you'll find on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or you can find us again the live links to the show and the pre recordings on YouTube and LinkedIn all can be found@SocialTown.com the shortlist. But until then I'll leave you in your wave three or four of lockdown. I hope you can find a way to Enjoy January. It's a long month for us all. Tune into some of our back catalog if you need some inspiration about some of the good that's come out of 2020, and hopefully that shines a light for you on the potential of 2021. We'll be back next week to show and sprinkle a little bit more of that potential on you and the rest of our audience. Take care.