Is it quiet quitting or employee disengagement? | with Jason Lauritsen

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Hi everybody. And you are so very, very welcome to this episode 117 of the of the social talents. The shortlist this week we are talking about is a quiet quitting or employee disengagement originating from a completely wild TikTok trend before now worming its way into mainstream consciousness. This phrase quiet quitting is absolutely everywhere. From videos, social posts and think pieces have all been created really highlighting a trend that sees workers reject overzealous expectations in favor of doing the minimum that their role requires. Public response has varied with some commentators heralding the spotlight that this has put on burnout on, on toxic cultures and disengagement, while others have labeled it as next gen nonsense. And so we want to get to the bottom of this. So our guest this week is none other than Jason Lawrenson. Jason is a familiar face on the socialtown platform, but he's also a celebrated author and employee engagement expert. We're going to chat about how there is nothing really that new about quiet quitting, the real problem behind this issue and what organizations and managers can do to help help support their employees. Jason, you're so very, very welcome on the show.

Thanks for having me. Lucky number 117. I love it.

That means we have form in this area. Jason, Jason, can you introduce yourself for our wider audience, please?

Well, you just did a great sort of, a great sort of brief intro of me. I am a speaker, I am an author. I've written both of these two books behind me, Shameless sort of self promotion there. And I am a management trainer which is the work I do with, with you and the team at Social Talent. So I, I love, sort of pride myself in trying to help what I describe as sort of unplug managers from the matrix of traditional broken management practices so that they can do their job by treating humans like humans and believing in the potential of humans. So. So that's me in a nutshell. Professionally, however, I would say most people tell me that the most interesting thing about me is my wife. So my wife is running for state legislative office. She's running to be a state senator right now. And so we're in the midst of a campaign, so it's crazy. And I'm also the father of three. My oldest is 25, my youngest is 13. And so it's busy around here.

I can say it is. Yeah. Campaigning and family life is also going to be really tough. So, so congratulations and I hope your wife every success in her state elections. Fingers crossed. You want to give her a plug there?

What For. Yeah, Well, I listen, if you want to donate to a candidate, you can believe in Angie Laetson, it's Angie Laurtson for Legislature, I think is the, is the, the, the dot com, whatever. But you just, if you search for Angie lan, you will find her and, or if you come find me, I'll help you find her. But she's, she's amazing. Way more amazing.

Well, she sounds wonderful if that's the case. You have a very particular philosophy about the role of managers, but also the role of work and our relationship with work. Can you explain maybe what that is for those who don't know you very well?

Sure. Well, I think it's, I mean, maybe philosophy. I think it's the reality, to be honest. I think that, well, the biggest thing that I think people fail to understand or that we're sort of, I think waking up to right now is that work is a relationship for employees. It is. I mean, if you look at, we have 30 years of employee engagement data and research that says that shows us that, you know, when we look at it year over year, the things that are always at the top of any analysis of employee sentiment data or what drives satisfaction or engagement or retention or whatever are things like, I want to feel valued. I want to feel appreciated. I need to know somebody cares about me. I want to feel trusted. And that's all relational stuff. And so what I think that screams is that despite what organizations, how we want to treat work, we want to treat work like a contract or something like that. That's not how people experience it. People experience it. Employees experience work like a relationship. And it's a pretty important relationship. And I think when you understand that and we start to treat it that way, which is what I try to show managers how to do, then everything changes, right? That's, that's really the key to changing the experience.

Hear, hear. And maybe you can give some insight then as to why quiet quitting has become such a prominent point of discussion then, particularly over the last couple of weeks and months. Like, is the, the relationship versus contract piece the root of that problem or is it something else?

I think that is a big part of it. I think that, I mean, the reason this has become, I mean, there's so many things, so many thoughts, but I think the reason it's a big deal is because it's another gift that our younger generation is giving to us. Like, I, I've loved for a long time, you know, that, that we love to blame the young generation for millennials have been getting blamed for a while for different things. Now we're blaming Gen Z for things and we want to pile all the stuff on it. But one of the things I love about both millennials and particularly Gen Z is that they'll say the quiet stuff out loud, right? They'll say things out loud. They have the audacity to say things out loud that everybody else knows and sees and recognizes but won't say it. And quite quitting is another one of those things. And it's been so funny to watch the, the reaction to this, you know, that you have these, you have these younger people that went to TikTok and I went to the, the origin video of all of this and then sort of have watched Sense and it's, you know, just saying, like, I'm, I'm done with all this nonsense. Like, I, I don't, I'm tired, I'm worn. I don't want to do this, you know, extra. I'm just going to do my job. I'm just going to do my job, do the minimum I, I need to do, and then that's it, and I'm going to reclaim the rest of my time and the rest of my life. And this is, this is what they think is quitting. And, you know, I think about, I think about that and I think. So a couple of things. The reason I think it's gotten so much reaction is that, number one, it's relatable. I mean, I think so there's so many people. And this is what, this is where I think, you know, the, there's people that are celebrating it, that are saying like, amen, thank you for saying this out loud. And then a bunch of other people are saying, yes, let's do this right, let's push back against all the nonsense. So there's that, there's a lot of people that are saying, you know, some of my favorite comments about this that I've seen are things like, huh, I didn't know that's what it was. I've been quiet quitting for 30 years. I, you know, I had a, I had a video I was sharing with you. I had a video that I recorded about this. And you know, one of the comments there was like, I want to quiet quit my relationship. And, and so I think it's, it's relatable. And I think there's, I mean, to your point about the relationship and contract, I think that's what's going on is, you know, people are trapped inside of this relationship and there's a lot of stuff that's not working in this relationship. And rather than break, which is messy and complicated, whatever, they're just like, you know what? I'm just done. I'm going to stop trying so hard. And I think there's so many people that just like, that connects, that speaks, that is their reality. And I think that's what's making this so resonant. It's making it such a big deal. And I think it's a huge opportunity for employers and leaders right now to step into this conversation.

Absolutely. So is there a point where do you think employee engagement versus disengagement? Like, what are the elements of what employee engagement is? What does it look like, versus this quiet quitting or disengagement, which is I'm just going to do what I have to do to get by, and that's it, no more.

Yeah, well, I think there's. Okay, so there's, there's a lot of things going on here. When we talk about this idea of quiet quitting that I do think that for a lot of. I mean, this is what traditionally we have referred to, I think, as disengagement. Right. They say, you know, people that have mentally quit, but they keep showing up to work. Now, this is disengagement. And this is sort of. This is a product of Gallup. So Gallup gave us sort of all of this language about 30 or 35 years ago, most of it anyways. They made it, they popularized it. And I think it's important to recognize that what these gen zers are reacting to, this hustle culture that they're referring to, is sort of what Gallup gave us 30 years ago. Because why do we do engagement? Well, according to Gallup, the output of engagement is discretionary effort. You know what discretionary effort is? Effort that I'm not being paid for. That's what discretionary effort is. And so can you imagine the audacity of these gen zers saying, like, no, no, I'm not going to work for free. Sorry, this is what you asked me to do. This is what I'm going to do. And if that's quitting, that's quitting. Right. That's how. That's the perspective. And so I do think it is. It is disengagement, but it's disengagement playing somebody else's game. Right? When, when, when engagement was defined, it was defined as, hey, this is a crafty way to get employees to do more work than what we're paying them for. Now, I think that is the Wrong way. Flat wrong way to think about engagement. But, Holly, that is. That is what it was sold as. That's what a lot of people understand. Hol, Hustle culture is discretionary effort. Right. Well, you can get on the radar if you're willing to go above and beyond, to put in extra hours, sort of sacrifice yourself to the organization, prove that you have no work life balance, and then we'll promote you. And that's what they're reacting to. And good for them. Right. That's a terrible, toxic model that's leading to burnout. So I think it's really interesting. It's the same conversation we've been having. You're absolutely right. Same conversation. It's just they're putting different words on it that I think people can understand. Nobody knows what disengagement is. Quite quitting, though. People are like, okay, I get that. That. That speaks to me.

Yeah. And certainly I think it is worthwhile defining or differentiating certainly between, you know, this disengagement slash, you know, saying no to hustle culture, saying no to the discretionary effort that is not compensated and will soon be forgotten, unfortunately, versus active disengagement, again, given to us by Gallup, which is now we're quitting and staying, you know, that very traditional quit and stay. Not doing. Absolutely. And not doing anything at all. Spoiling the pot for everyone else, bad mouthing the organization. You know, that type of thing where people generally poison the well around them.

That's right. And so, I mean, this is where I think the conversation needs to shift. Right. Because the conversation about quiet quitting has really focused on the employee.

Right.

It's been about these employees. And. And then, you know, except this. This video that I put up, I'm amazed by the number of people that come in is like, well, these people, they're just lazy. This is just laziness by a different name. It's like we're piling on. We're piling on and blaming the people that are raising this issue up, that are talking about it as if they're the problem. And. And I think it's the. The interesting thing for me is that this isn't an issue of work ethic. This is an issue of, I think, a breakdown in clarity. It's a breakdown in management processes. It's a breakdown in a lot of different things that these are people that are reacting to. Like, hey, the message that I'm hearing is this, that you have this level of expectation for me. But I'm also getting this other message that this is what my job is, right? That what, like, the, the minimum I'm expected. Like, if I do this, then I'm. I'm meeting expectations. But you're saying I need to be up here. Like, that's what gets celebrated. Like, what, what. What is that gap? And that gap is exhausting. And I don't understand it. And I think it's really interesting that the issue is we're not clear about those things. We're not clear about where they are. We're not calibrating them correctly. So, you know, I think about. Let's think about it a different way. Can you imagine I'm like, thinking, I would love to have. If I had an organization full of people, you know, I'm thinking a big company. And if you were to come to me and say, okay, well, turns out we got a quiet quitting problem. Like, all of our employees have decided they're. They're only going to dedicate themselves to meeting the expectations of their job. We have a crisis on our hands, and it's like, no, you don't. Like, I would love that. Because if that's a problem, if that, if quiet quitting is a problem, then you have a management and culture problem. Because if people are saying, I'm only going to meet expectations and that's not enough for you, then you suck at setting expectations. Your expectations are too low or they're not calibrated. Calibrated correctly or whatever. Get your expectations correct. No problem. Thank you for showing up. Like, call it quitting, call it working, call it whatever you want. But as long as you meet these expectations, that's what I'm paying you to do. And as long as you're not to your point, if you're not creating any chaos around that, if you're not a cancer on your team, if you are not causing other people not to be able to do their work, if you're just showing up and making a positive contribution based on what is expected of you. Thank you. Like, we keep coming back, right? We need more of you. And so there's that piece of it. And then the culture problem is the reality that they think that's not enough. Who's sending that message? Where's that coming from? Chances are they're seeing that when they look up at managers and leaders above them, there's a message being conveyed that if you want to be successful here, that means you have to give us some of the stuff we're not paying you for for free. And then someday we might reward you with more Money and a bigger title and a bigger office or whatever that is, whatever you. But then, but then we're going to expect that that extra stuff you're giving of yourself to be now part of it. And then you're going to have to give more and more and more until there's nothing left. And so this is what they're pushing back on and I think it's a good thing.

So where did that start though? I mean, how was there ever really a point in which, you know, or maybe I should ask the question a different way. Is there ever an acceptable point in time when we can ask an employee to demonstrate their skill, dedication, you know, going maybe even straddling two jobs, for example, before giving them that title or giving them that pay raise or whatever, the, the additional responsibility, you know, is it a full year before they do that or is it ever acceptable to do that before they land on a new role? Like what's, what is our balance? And have we just missed this, what that point is or misconstrued it?

No, I think that's a, it's a great question. And I think so much of it has to do with being transparent, being clear about what is being asked, why it's being asked, sort of what is the, what is the trade off here? I mean, we have, we're entering into an era. I was just talking with someone yesterday. She was talking about her daughter and her daughter is in college, she's doing internships and she was talking about her different internships experiences and like her daughter was like perplexed by a particular organization that was expecting her to come into the office like two times a week. Like that was the level of expectation that she's like, why, Like I can do my work from home, why would I need to do that? And she's talking to her mom who is like a global HR executive and her mom's like, it is pretty stupid. Like, I'm not going to lie to you. Like, it is dumb, but they get to set the expectations, but there's no why underneath it. And I think that's where so much of this, so much of this breaks down is that you've got employees that are being, there's an expectation being put on them. Maybe not explicitly, but it's sort of there that like, well, you need to do this right? You, you know, you think about, I think it was like Goldman Sachs has been in the news a lot, right, for their internal expectations and like if you're a first year associate, if you're not putting in 80 to 100 hours a week. Yeah, you're, you're not there. You're just, you might as well just quit and go find something else, someplace else to work. And, but, but the, the thing about that is, is, like, there, that at least is known, it's at least explicit. So, like, when you're going in, I think they could share that with you. And like, this is what you're getting into. You know, if you want to sign up for this, you're going to make a lot of money. It's going to set you up for a great career path in the future, but you're going to have no personal life for the next three years. Like, don't even try to have a relationship. It's not going to work. If you're willing to make that converse trade off, sure, go for it. Same thing internally, anytime. If, if, if you want to ask me, like, you know, if I'm, if I'm motivated to move up in my career, I'm motivated for promotions or whatever, and you come to me and say, we think that you have the potential for this. Here's the opportunity we'd like to create for you. In the short run, it's probably going to be a little heavy for you. You might end up working some extra hours. You're going to have to kind of. But it's a way for us to get you some exposure and get you this. Here's what we believe the payoff. As long as these things go well, then we think this is what's likely to happen. Is that of interest? Right. So now I can, I have agency. I think, I think my, my hunch is a lot of these employees don't have agency in this. It's just being, they feel like it's being put on them and work, you know, just more work, more work or more expectations. And they don't understand the why. They don't understand. They don't have agency to say no or to even shape it in any way and therefore pushing back. They're pushing back.

Yep. Honda. I, I completely see how that would happen. I mean, anybody where you take away their opportunity to opt in or out will force, you know, initially will obviously have people who go along with it kind of going, oh, God, I have to. But eventually, as soon as somebody, as soon as they see somebody say enough of that, I'm not. Not happening, they suddenly realize, oh, I'm able to say, well, I'm able to say no. This is, this sounds great. Okay, let's say no and let's see what happens if we all say no. Hence why labor unions really become a thing. But that lack of agency and the lack of clarity, I can completely see. Actually interesting that you're mentioning about internships, because internships are an integral part of getting into many, many professional, professional industries. And those internships for the vast majority of them, certainly pre, you know, 2008, maybe even pre2015, I'd say, were free that you had to give up your summer, you couldn't earn money during your summers, during your college years or whatever else, or give up your evenings and weekends in order for you to take on this opportunity to get the exposure and get the, you know, learn the skills, et cetera, in order to network with people in those different organizations. And all of that was completely free. But also, that's a remarkably. I don't know if it's, if it's purely just United States or if it's predominantly United States oriented, because certainly over, you know, the other side of the pond where I live, you know, we have very strict work trafficking and slavery laws, for example, where you cannot work for free. And so any internship is actually dreamed work experience and you are simply shadowing other people. You are not to be part of a work product without pay. And that's enshrined in our labor laws. So perhaps that lack of the clarity, the transparency, the trade off that people get, if it's just implied rather than explicit, you know, folks will get that point where they just go, screw that. I can't take this. I can't afford it. Because really, who can?

Yeah. And they, thankfully, in the US Anyways, there's been some major progress over the course of the last decade on eliminating unpaid internships because it was like, it was just a way organizations were getting free labor under the guise of, of internships or getting your foot in the door, it's ridiculous. So that, that has largely been addressed, thankfully, but I think. So there, there's two sides to this conversation too. And I want to, I want to, I want to sort of share that I'm not, I'm not Pollyannish or I'm not sort of only seeing one side. There's the other side of this, which is if I'm advice, you know, I think about this with my, know, with my kids. Like if you're advising someone and you're advising someone on how to navigate the world of work and you know, I, I was, I mean, I think about, I was really ambitious when I was young. That's part, you know, I'M an entrepreneur, right? So I've been, I'm an ambitious guy and so I was always looking for opportunities to do things, to invest, to get an angle, to build relationships. And I put, I mean, I countless hours of time doing unpaid volunteer work or whatever to get access to people or to connect or whatever. So I, I understood that I needed to make that investment. And I think that's one of the parts of this conversation too that has to be present. I think my son is, is 25 and you know, he's in a role, he's in a newer company and a newer role and he's in a high demand trade area and he meets people all the time who work in other companies and whatever. And there's like, oh, well, you know, you could come over here and it's a higher wage for this or you could come over and do this. Like he's getting all these, all the time, these different opportunities that he could move and. But he likes his crew that he's with. He's still early on. He's only been there for, you know, a handful of months and, and advising him around like, well, okay, here's how you can think about this. Sure, you could go jump for five bucks an hour, but there's some consequence to that. You know, there's some consequence into building relationships or looking like a guy who's going to jump every time there's a $5 an hour offer made your way. Like there's all these things you have to manage. And so I think about too, some of the, I worry about some of the folks that are, some of the younger folks that are posting the quiet quitting videos that are raging about this, that they need to also understand that while I would say, like I'm preaching to the organization saying fix this, right? The reason Gen Zers are reacting this way, the reason everybody's reacting this way is because your management processes are broken. We have a system of work that is, that is broken, that can be much, much better and we should fix that. But Gen Zer that is raging about this on TikTok, you also need to understand there are consequences to. This is a game. So a lot of times the problem is I'm not, you know, if I'm not clear on what my goals are, if I'm not clear on what my objectives are, this is another place that you can help. Whether it's helping your employees or helping the young people in your life, young professionals in your life is helping them get clear about where they're going, where do they want to go? What are they? What do you want to accomplish in your career for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it is, and what are you willing to invest? And then helping them learn how to make smart investments of their time, of their resources, sometimes going to work for Goldman Sachs for three years and working 100 hours a week for three years. If you're 22 years old, you have no other responsibilities and you're smart and that's going to propel you to an investment bank that you want to work at a smaller place where you can find more balance, then do it, man. Those three years might propel you for the next 20. And so it's just being clear about that there are decisions and consequences at play all the time on both sides of this equation.

Definitely. So it's very much about expectations on both sides and understanding where the, the end goal needs to be. So I want to kind of go back to the, the point you were saying about. There's these desperate management practices that we need to repair and transform into something else much more, much more aligned with what it is that employees need and want and is actually going to be successful for them. Can you enlighten, I mean, you and I have had these discussions many times before, Jason, but can you enlighten our audience perhaps as to what your idea is about what specific practices are broken and how we can fix them?

God, how much time do we have, Holly?

I mean, that's a long 12 minutes.

That is a long list. Well, let's talk about a couple, a couple key things. The I would say, I mean fundamentally there are sort of two. I guess I would say that there's two sort of big problems that we need to address that would go a long ways towards, towards I think helping create a work experience that would feel better for people and that people wouldn't feel the need to quite quit or at least it wouldn't feel like quitting to them if they're just doing their job, showing up every day and trying to be successful and doing their job. And one is that we need to get a lot, lot better at creating clarity, clarity about expectations, specifically what is expected of me in my role and an employee. So the tool that I, the tool that I share or teach with managers for this is if you're a manager and you want to see how clear employees are that work for you, here's what I would encourage you to do. You first schedule a meeting with, with a one on one meeting with your employee, one of them or all of Them, whatever, separate meetings. So schedule a one on one meeting. And then in advance of that one on one meeting, just say, you know, sort of the purpose of the meeting is that you want to just check in on whether they're clear about goals and what's expected of them to make sure that they understand, you know, they have clarity about this. And so in advance of the meeting, you ask them, I would like you to write down, you know, put in writing, what are the top three ways that your success is measured in your role. Top three ways. What are the three biggest measures of success and what does success look like on those three measures? So how do you, you know what, how do you know if you're successful? What are the three things you think? And then, so you ask them to write that down and bring that to the meeting. And then you, as the manager, in advance write down the three things. So what are the three things that you, what are the actual three priorities that you use to determine success for them in their role? And what does success look like? Then when you get together, you, you talk about those, you compare notes.

Yep.

Now, if you have the courage to.

Do this, our survey says, yeah, you.

Have the courage to do this, what you're going to find is there's a lot less clarity than what you think. Yeah, but one conversation, and this gets to. The second thing is clarity is, is. The first key is getting clear about expectations, whether it's output or behaviors. The second thing is we've got to get more courageous about having the conversations that really matter with our people, and particularly conversations like this one where we are likely to learn something uncomfortable. I'm your manager. I've been managing you for however long. And what I just discovered through this exercise is that you think your performance is measured in a completely different way than it actually is. Guess who failed there? I did. And I've got to be comfortable in owning that and then fixing that. But if you're willing to step into those conversations, if you're willing to do that work, then that employee now becomes crystal clear about, oh, so if I do these three things and I do it at these level, like, then, then I will be viewed as successful in this role. Yes. Well, then they can get to a second conversation like, well, then you maybe have a conversation about their goals. What do they want to develop towards? Like what, what do you see as your next steps? And then you can have a conversation with them about what are those next steps? And that might lead someplace income, uncomfortable too. I mean, I, I tell a story about how I have a. At one point in my career, I was having a development conversation with a boss that I had, and she was great at these conversations. She wasn't afraid of having them. So she would tee them up, and we're having a conversation, and she asked me one day, like, what. What I saw, sort of, you know, we were thinking about development and next steps. And I said, well, I said. I honestly, I said, if I'm totally honest, I said, I think I'm probably going to have to leave the organization in the next year or so.

Wow. And she's like, that was brave of you to say.

Yeah, maybe, maybe. I don't know. I. I'm. I'm a little broken in terms of my risk tolerance. So felt just honest, not brave. So that's just me. But anyway, she just said. She goes, okay, tell me more about that. And I said, well, you know, here's my. Here's kind of where I want to move over the next five or ten years. My next move would be into your job. And you don't appear to be going anywhere. You're doing a great job. So the only way for me to get a job like you is to go someplace else. And she then said, okay, hold. You know, before you do anything, we need to have a bigger conversation because. And then I found out she actually was planning her retirement. There were some conversations about whatever. So we started having this conversation. But, like, it led to a place like, she needed to know that I was. That. That I was planning on leaving so that she could put into work this. This work. So you can't be afraid, like, stay interviews or whatever. You can't be afraid of the conversations because that reality exists. The employee is quiet, quitting. It's just whether or not they're telling you or not, or the employee is planning to leave, it's just a matter of whether they're telling you or not. Because if you can have the conversation and they'll tell you, then you can do something about it. So it's all about clarity and then having the conversations that matter.

Yeah. 100. I think those day interviews, as well as you're saying are. They are difficult to have, right? Because as a manager, you might be thinking, oh, God, what if they ask for something and I can't give it to them? They ask for promotion and there just isn't one there. They ask for a pay rise that I just can't afford to give them, certainly not at that amount, or it's out of cycle or whatever. And they're gonna do X, Y, Z, what do I do then? And, and so instead of having the conversation, they are fearing it and therefore don't have it because they think or they preempt some of these scenarios that may or may not happen that they just won't have the answers to. But of course, it's, it's the lack of bravery.

For sure it is. And here's the, here's the truth about that conversation as a manager is that there's. There's a couple of things. Number one, you as a manager assume there's going to be a bunch of stuff they'll bring up that you can't do anything about, but the truth is you probably can do something, right? So if I come and I say, well, I really would like a promotion into this type of position, and you're like, well, that position, there's none of those positions available right now. But let's talk about what getting you ready for that might look like. And let's break that down and let's enter into a conversation about that. Well, that feels like progress towards what they want to the employee, that they don't want to be promoted right now. They just want to know that you will help them move towards that goal. Right. And engaging that. And if you don't, same thing with a raise. Maybe you can't give them a raise, but you can say, okay, here's what we can do. Here's what I can do. Let's talk about this on the employee side. The thing is, when you choose not to have the conversation, when you're not asking the questions, human nature is working against you. Because the way our brains work is that when there's something important that we need to know or want to know and we don't know the answer, we don't know with any clarity what the answer is. We always assume the worst because when we assume the worst, it helps us protect ourselves. And that's what our brain is wired to do first and foremost, is protect ourselves. Our amygdala is always at work. Work. So if, if I know that I should be paid more or I believe that I should be paid more, I'm underpaid. But I'm not going to ask. My manager's not asking me about how I feel about my pay. Nobody's having this conversation with me. And because nobody's having this conversation with me, I'm assuming they can't do anything about it or that they just don't value me at all and can't pay me. So I'M going to write all these narratives, and then those narratives, what do they lead me to? I'm going to go find somebody that does value me. Whereas if I had the conversation, then the manager could say, like, listen, you are amazing. And I like, thank you for bringing this up. I don't know that I can solve this this week, but I will get to work on it and see what I can do. I'm going to go engage, do this, this, this, and this. And all of a sudden, now you've got an employee that maybe has a different narrative. Like, I know that my manager at least cares and is going to try. That doesn't mean you're going to be able to fix it. But that is completely different than not having the conversation. Not having the conversation is where uncertainty sort of reigns. When uncertainty reigns, relationships die. Disengagement sort of rages on. And so have the conversation. Don't be afraid.

100%. That story we make up in our heads is poisonous. And I suppose that's advice for life too, right? It's not. Well, I mean, obviously work is a big part of our lives, but in terms of our personal relationships to that uncertainty can kill engagement in. In those personal relationships, that story we make up in our head can be deathly poisonous. Yeah.

Really, the best advice I can offer on that is. And I think this came out of. Of the book Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott, which is one of the best books I've like. I'd highly recommend it, Fierce Conversations. But it's that the conversation that most frightens you. Thinking about it is likely the most important conversation that you can have.

Yeah.

And so when you can step into those conversations with some degree of courage, knowing that that fear is a sign that it matters, you can change your life when you start stepping into those in your personal life, in your professional life, whatever. Like, if you're afraid of that conversation, there's something there. There's something there. Either it matters so much to you or it matters so much to the other person. Either way, there's something that needs to be done there. So find a way into those conversations because they will change everything I feel.

And thank you for that. I'm gonna. I'm definitely gonna look up that book and Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott. I feel that this has been a wonderful mentoring session, Jason. Thank you. Not quite coaching, but certainly I've, I've. I have learned a lot from your wisdom. And yeah, you're right. That gut feel the gut check that you take when it comes to thinking about a Convers, whether it's with a peer, with your manager, with your, with your employees, or your teams, with your CEO, whoever that is. You know, when there's conversations that give you a level of dread, they go, God, no, no, no, I'm not going to bring that up. I'd rather avoid it. You're dead right. It has to be bite the bullet. Just do it. Because it'll always. You'll regret that. What is it you gr. You regret the shots you don't take?

That's right.

Yeah, absolutely. So that was a fairly whistle stop tour, I suppose, of the things that managers can do. Have you a last piece of advice? We do ask all of our guests to leave the audience with one final piece of advice. And While this whole 45 minutes of a conversation has been, as I said, a lovely mentoring session, can you, can you leave us with one final thing? It can be by the topic itself or something else. What nugget you want to leave our listeners?

Make time. Make time every week to check in with the people that matter most to you in your life. Whether that's at work and if you're a manager, the people you lead should, whether it's friends, whether it's family, but like, make time to reach out and ask people how they are to see what's going on. Like that connecting point is, you know, we, I think we're, we're all on the back end of knowing what it feels like to be isolated from the people that matter most to us. And it sucks and it's had dire consequences. And we know we have loads of research that says one of the most powerful ways to maintain and improve our mental health is through better, stronger, more healthy connections with others. So make time to reach out and check in with people. Make time to connect with people, to get together with people. It very well may change your life.

Yeah, I, I love that. I think that is, that's a lovely place to end and a lovely way to kind of bring us back into what engagement really is, which is to engage with people who we, who we care about and to re. Engage with. With those we care about. Yeah. Jason, thank you so much. This has been truly enlightening and a really lovely conversation to bring. Quite quitting, actually, to not be something that's dismissed, but actually really look at it for what it is, which is, you know, actually doing your job and changing how it is that we lead our people. Thank you so much, Jason, for your time and for, for everybody who's listening. Thank you for your time as well. We will be joined next week from Unleash World in Paris. If you're around, please stop by the social talent booth and say hello for our listeners, though we've already got a great episode teed up for you for next Wednesday with Jonathan Keston Baum, who's the managing director of technology strategy and partnerships at Alexander Mann Solutions at ams, where we're all about the latest trends in technology and TA or say TA Tech rather. And Jonathan is the absolute foremost authority in everything to do with HR and talent acquisition technology. So if you are in the market for a new applicant tracking system or just hunting around for like, cool tools that people should be using, getting the, getting the lay of the land, what cool new things are coming up. Jonathan definitely has all of those answers. So, so Johnny and Jonathan will be joining you from next Wednesday. Until then, have the most wonderful week. Thanks, everybody. Bye.