Leading a workforce of the future | with Christoph Niebel

Sam, You're very welcome to episode 114 of the Shortest. My name is Johnny Campbell. I'm going to be your host for the next 45 minutes or so, and I'm also the CEO of Social Talent. We're going to be digging in this week to one what it means to lead a workforce of the future. A lot of talk has gone into the future of work, the new future of work and what that means, but that's been over the last two and a half years as we came out of a pandemic, but now we're going into massively high inflation, a war in Europe, energy crisis. Everything seems to be up in the air. We're absolutely at this maybe unique transition point in the world of work. We're shaking off that spectrum of COVID We have, as I said, economic upheaval. But really unusually throughout all of this, there still reigns a truism that to achieve success, organizations and leaders need to build and nurture a workforce that can help them evolve into the future, whilst also trying to weather storms of uncertainty. That's no easy feat, and that's why all solutions are unlikely to be able to solve new solutions. So we need to come up with new ways of doing this. Joining us today to give his perspective on this is a returning guest from one of our earlier seasons, and it's a fantastic Christoph Niebel. Christoph is the president of Pontoon Solutions, so by his accent you may not know that he's based in New York City, but he's joining us from the US today, and he's a big advocate for igniting potential and striving for change. Krzysztof is gonna be chatting with us today about the importance of investing in your people, how learning and development can help future proof your organization through skills development, and why leadership will play a pivotal role in ensuring that the workplace of the future is a better version of the one we have today. So hopefully we have Christoph joining us. Christoph, you're very welcome to the show and thanks for coming back. You obviously are glutton for punishment and just want more punishment, but maybe if you wouldn't mind giving our audience a little bit of context to your personal career and then a little bit more about Pontoon Solutions, just in case you're not familiar with the company to understand the kind of reach of Pontoon and the unique perspective that business gives you.

Sure, Johnny. Well, first of all, thank you for having me back. Love being here. It was two years ago, I think that we had the last time together, so as you said, my accent gives it away. German that came via Australia to the US where I've now been for the last 10 years. I've spent my life really in the human capital space, both on the talent acquisition side where I'm again today, but also largely on the talent management talent development side. So talent beyond acquisition here is the calling card and I've built a really interesting insight into I think globally, the ins and outs of what we see in the town market. On the personal side, former effective European handball player today, ineffective magician. One day I'll show you a trick. Johnny in in spirit of what I do today. You said it. I'm the president of Pontoon Solutions. The the easiest way to explain it is probably that we have the opportunity to serve some of the largest companies globally and managing the external workforce. So in context of units of spend, we're managing over 10 billion euros in spend for our clients, which means thousands and thousands of external workers. I can go into a little bit more detail later where I think that even maybe the wrong way of showcasing the scale of this because spend is not a very human way of expressing how we should think about talent. And then on the permanent side, we hire hundreds of thousands of people for our clients and with this power, some of the largest business globally, Pontoon itself, We have about 2,000 employees globally, operated for our clients in about 100 countries and are part of the Adeco Group, which is broadly known as one of the largest, you know, workforce solutions and talent solutions provider globally. So again, thanks for having me back.

And for those of you listening live as we do broadcast our podcast live every week, you can join us on YouTube and LinkedIn. If you're on YouTube or LinkedIn, please jump in with your questions and we'll put them to Christoph for your comments and we'll share them with the audience. Any links we do reference, of course we'll put in the show notes show notes for the podcast as well. Christoph, with such a unique perspective and with two hats, one, well three hats, we can't the magician. But let's go with the two hats. One, as an employer, employer of 2,000 people and the second, as somebody who works with, as you said, the biggest organizations in the world and some of the smaller and medium sized ones in 100 countries delivering so many hires, you have what I think we would all agree is a unique perspective on talent. A really good perspective on talent. So I'm interested to hear from you the answer to the big question. Let's start with the big, big One, what does the future of work look like to you? And when you say the future, maybe give us an idea what time frame you think about. Well.

This is absolutely a big question. And the first thing I'd say, the future is here. I believe that today we, and you reference it, we're going through a seismic shift and you just only talked really about the external events. We can talk a little bit more about the shifts that we've seen in the town side. But in a nutshell, I believe in our living today in what I would label an open talent economy. We've been talking about this for a while to appoint future new way of doing business. But those drastic events over the last couple of years have seen the companies and the talent that pattern reframe what work looks like for them. You see it on a personal level. And companies are looking for new dynamic talent models that can quite frankly profoundly impact how work is interpreted at both the individual level and how enterprises can deliver value and operate. And on the flip side to that, we can see I think more and more an end of these industrial organizational boundaries that we've all put in place that were anchor points in the past. And I think that's a. You said this before and there's significant shift, I mean, I think a strategic shift where not so long ago, you know, organization could still win by embracing this traditional, you know, full time work contract space, but playing nicely within the organizational boundaries where talent is purely performing along linear career path, where we have our neat HR structures that are established for managing internal employees. The systems, the process, the oversight, the development, where you play a big role. And I think that has left many businesses as almost like lumbering giants, where they have these systems built for comfortable, slower paced environments that don't have, you know, the impact that you described earlier. And on the flip side, I think this whole the future, which I believe is here, the idea of this open talent economy is where all people perform work as a single whole. And I think there's some great examples we'll go into a bit later of companies who do that, where work is assigned to people who can do it best regardless of the form of employment, where talent is a network of partners to help to get the work done, where you want to find the best idea at scale, tap the best expertise and augment that inner core which is super important. And ultimately where internal and external becomes irrelevant, where it's about value creation and where experience for the individual is key to creating success. So I do think that part of the future is here from, you know, seeing the end of organizational boundaries and to quite frankly, that's what I think about it a lot. You know, how can we help our clients win in that new open talent economy?

Some of these trends, Christoph, were more longer term, maybe more obvious. So for example, the trend towards more entrepreneurship has been around for more than a decade and therefore the growth in the gig economy, which has been predicted for many years and has continued, that's a normal thing where, you know, we've all, we've seen this gradual shift towards people perhaps double jobbing, trying to basically, you know, promoting more entrepreneurism. We've seen entrepreneurs and academia has been a massively growing topic and the world's moved on from, you know, work, you know, the celebration of a job with a big company to actually do it yourself. Right. So those, for a long time, but then a trend like remote working, which I don't think anyone predicted would change as fast as, as it did, you know, from a gradual thing that was beginning to change and maybe in 20 years would affect the economy, but very slowly to all of a sudden changing it in a month. We see different trends like that. Are there any trends that you're looking at today that you know are obvious trends or not obvious trends? When you go, this is the thing we watch, we've seen, maybe we've seen for years and it's going to continue or you know, you talk about obviously the, the role of the employer and the employee and how it shifted and changes. Maybe that's one of the more, call it stable changes that we have seen heading in a direction for some time and will continue in that direction. But are there others like that and are there trends that you see, you think might, you know, come out of nowhere. Always hard to predict these black swans, but you think, you know, could impact the future of work?

Look, I'm not even sure if it's, if it's, if it's new and unknown trends. By definition I, I would know that. But I think where we have an opportunity to reframe is what are we going to do with these trends? I think at the, at the longest time we have been reactive to them. Even what you just mentioned, you know, how do I look at, to be more entrepreneurial? Let's face it, you know, we, the talent have different expectations now and this is not new. But not all of us are chasing titles. We are chasing experiences. You know, we want flexibility and which we prioritize over potentially stability. You said it. You know, town is becoming untethered from a location Unbundled from a workplace and unencumbered to take any sort of working relationship with a company. What strikes me as the wrong mindset that companies embrace this as a challenge of saying how do I deal with this? This has complexity versus saying well, that creates a tremendous amount of opportunity to drive our strategy different, differently. And I think we see some companies who have reinvented themselves away from that limits of the organization boundary. So I think this is almost for me, the underlying response to you is where this is seen as oh my God, this is all running away from us. Let's embrace this and look at how we can fundamentally differently operate re framing from a employee centric ecosystem approach where we can provide a better experience for the individual, but also for the. For the. For your stakeholder. A good example. I see a company I think that most of us would know. I read a recent article about Unilever and I forget his name. I'm sorry, but it was a senior leader in HR who reflected that they have about 150,000 people as full time employees, but their definition of workforce is very broad. Is that you basically have about 3 million people that are contributing to achieving our mission, which is serving our customers and they come in all shapes and sizes and being able to leverage them to create more agility, resilience, elasticity, to have a competitive differentiation. I think that is the. I don't think it's a new trend, but it's a massive unlock that we all need to contribute to solving. Because in my view it's no longer enough to say hey, I'm a gender parity 50 50, but that's only 150,000 off of 3 million. Or my employee surveys showing us really good results. But you're not surveying your total workforce or indeed I'm providing learning and development, but not to everyone that really makes an impact on your client, but only those people who have the same email domain as you. So I think that for me is a core underlying trend, as you said, maybe not new, but that some companies are realizing can reset their competitiveness. And they don't see it as a challenge, but they embrace this shift.

I like that idea of seeing the opportunity, seeing the potential rather than seeing the risk or the negativity on it. And also the more holistic view of talent. That's an interesting one. I know. I read an article recently, I think it was from last month's Harvard Business Review, talking about models of leadership and innovation. I talked about how, for example Amazon, perhaps according to the article, and the researcher writing the article didn't perhaps consider the ecosystem of the sellers which aren't ex again Amazon.com Employee they, you know, they're independent but they make their earning off Amazon and they weren't listening to their needs, which is widely acknowledged by Amazon at the time that led to the growth of Shopify. And Shopify were able to come in there and, and facilitate what the merchants needed and offer them an alternative which change the dynamic and that, you know, again, thinking about just your badged employees as is often said, can be very limiting. Whereas thinking about the ecosystem of individuals who contribute to and earn off your organization 150,000 people going to 3 million. I'm not too sure where you need to even get 3 million from but absolutely the ecosystem is always broader. Tell me about the skill shortage sorted in that context. Right. So we're heading into or we're in a recession depending on your perspective. And you know, traditionally we go into a recession and people think well everyone's going to be out of work, it's going to be easy to find a job now or sorry, difficult to find a job and you know, it's a, it's an employer's market. Tell me about what your feeling is and what the data suggests otherwise on the ground.

I've been thinking about this a lot and we had an opportunity to talk a little bit beforehand. I do think the potential next recession. I'm not an economist, I, I can't tell you we're in one. I think we only know after the fact will be different than the last few. As it relates to Covid, a couple of reasons. We just talked about the kind of macro shift I think in context of the, the open talent economy and that talent is untethered and bundled and unencumbered to do whatever they want. So I think that is, that is, that is different. But then there's also a big driver that I think you, you see in your business as well is you know, what role does technology play going forward from you know, having been at one point more discretionary spend to really core spend for a large number of organization which has a direct correlation to the, you know, skill shortages describing. So unless we have a big black swan like Covid where we obviously saw a significant spike immediately, I think it's unlikely that we see the talent supply demand scenario, you know, drastically inverted. The, the stat that I saw recently is that we have in the US But I assume this holds true proportionally for other markets. A 6 million gap between jobs, openings and unemployed, I. E. 6 million more job openings than unemployed. And this was inverted both during COVID It was inverted in the global financial crisis and that was inverted in the early 2000s in the, you know, it crash effectively. So if you consider that I don't think we see this being solved in inverted commas by a recession and if anything I would say we are looking at, at a tightening labor market as it becomes critical to get the broadly speaking in demand skills. So short answer, I don't see this turning around because of a recession.

We recently conducted a case study with Pontoon looking at how you've embedded social talent and generally learning development into the very DNA of the organization. And I'm imagining Kristoff, part of that reason is to combat a skill shortage for the skills you hire for, you know, and, and runaway wage inflation as well for those skills. We see organizations turning to learning development like they've never turned before. How important do you think that learning piece, that agility and that muscle to learn within an organization is to your own success in the organization's success than others?

I mean I think it's everything I'm personally very passionate and you know, my why I get out of bed is to help people and businesses uncover, light up and ignite potential. And the opportunity to do this across a spectrum of 2000 employees and again many, many, many thousands of people that we put to work is a privilege. So at Pontoon we believe in always be learning and we're putting money where our mouth is. And we've done this with you specifically because if you today the reality we are our assets are to the largest extent still our people. Of course, you know, we have processes and IP and technology that enabled world class outcome to our clients. But we're not a technology business at heart. We, you know, have processes and technology enable a services business that is driven by people. And those people, those assets, they walk home every day or they stay home depending on from where they work and they make choices. And if we can't show them the experience that differentiate us from another employer where they can coming back to what I said beforehand, where they can be aligned with their purpose or get better and strive for whatever it looks like for them, they leave us. And especially over the last couple of years in the business where recruiters, you know, are core part of your business, they have a lot of choice. So we are, I'm a firm believer in this and I'm proud of what we did with you Johnny. I think we've seen a business impact both from a, you know, NPS Perspective, our clients are happier, our internal people manage. Manage, sorry. Measure an employee net promoter score that went up. Outcome for our clients from time to fill, time to shortness went down. But importantly, it starts to shift the culture where if I am even directionally right on that shift, then we will be moving from looking at open jobs and how to fill them to a value proposition that says we're looking at outcomes and how to achieve them. And for that, our people have to evolve and to stay ahead of that game and help our clients win in that open talent economy. So there's both a personal passion for this, but I do think it makes a ton of business sense. Question is, now, you know, do we do this for everyone or again, just the people, as you call that that today. And that's a question I'm asking myself. You know, is our whole ecosystem empowered enough and are they always be learning as well? So that's my view on that and I thank you.

And I'd love to think that platform, like social talent on its own, was going to solve everyone's L and D challenges. It's unfortunately not. You know, I'm keen to hear from you because it's something I believe, what the role of leadership is, maybe starting with that, developing a learning culture and mindset. Because I think what we see is that, you know, a platform or technology like ours on its own isn't enough. You do need strong leadership, and that can be the real difference in it being a success or not being a success. You know, we're not all, you know, going to have the same outcome with the same available resources. So talk to me about what you've learned around the role of leadership and changing a culture in driving not just L and D initiatives, but driving a culture of higher, higher performance whilst also drawing more happiness, driving more happiness in the team and more attention.

Yeah, I come back towards it. Always be learning. I'm certainly learning to become a better, more impactful leader. So take everything I say with a grain of salt here, because the more I learn, the less I know. And this is, this is a wonderful journey, but this is just my point, point of view. First of all, I think it starts with mindset, Johnny. The basic principle for me is you can only lead if you have followers because it's not a designated title by your organization. You truly need to earn that. And if people interpret this with a, you know, I guess the time of the corner office is gone, but with a title, I think they need to ask themselves what leadership means for them. And for me, it really means you need to have followers. So it begs the question, what creates followership? I do think, in my experience, you want to give people a reason to follow, which has to do with being really clear on what the North Star looks like for us. The purpose at the group in Pontoon is anchored to making the future work for everyone and everyone is meaningful. In context of what I said beforehand, how do we help our clients win in the open talent economy where they need to engage everyone and that's hard. So leadership then means based on having set a clear direction, that you define the operating principles that allow this company to move towards it and some people can opt in and opt out. This won't be for everyone. I think leadership to me and building followership means you have to build trust. That comes with, in my opinion, insurance and vulnerability. You have to put yourself in situations where you're uncomfortable, where you're wrong and where you're silent. I personally do this by trying to speak to people out in the field who might put me in positions of hearing things again that I thought differently about, that they're not just rosy and where I need to listen. I believe in having giving people the opportunity to make mistakes. I say to my people, there's nothing they can do that I cannot fix with the intent of allowing them to not only ask for permission, but share their intent and move. Lastly, I think you need to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to making them better and mean it. So again, to the point of what we've done at Pontoon, we invest in development, we have anchored our work review to a certain extent to bonusing people on their learning. We said we give a goal for every individual of 52 hours of learning, which in aggregate across our employee base means there is 15% of the overall incentive, the short term incentive anchored to achieving this as a company, because we believe this has a significant roi. And another part of, you know, putting your money where your mouth is is focusing on becoming a net exporter of talent. If you have done all the right things as a leader, you should be proud and embrace that your best people are going to take a next step somewhere else and you not just holding them. So as I said, I'm, I'm learning on this journey. These are some of my reflections and I agree with you. I think leadership in all this is key.

Do you see that in some of the companies you work with? Not to name names, but you know, can you think of examples? You gave some earlier on, but other examples where you've really seen strong leadership in the face of this, these talent changes or you've seen, you know, a real investment in that learning and development culture or different approaches to how to solve the talent problem. Because obviously when you look at the actual demographics, you look at that 6 million gap you mentioned between the amount of jobs being advertised on the unemployed available and you look at some of the demographics around skills that are coming into the pipeline, it's not going to be possible to solve by just hiring your way out of this. Not one company might solve the problem by hiring their way out of their skills crisis, but not everybody. There's going to be losers. So where do you see real signs of ingenuity, innovation in talent management and solving these problems?

This is a good question. First of all I, I think it needs to be a business discussion versus just an HR leadership discussion. And the reason why I'm saying this, it it not to sound trite but this is a, this is a long term strategy versus a short term investment. And in, in the world that we live in today, many businesses run quarter to quarter and it's impossible to move the needle in, in this time frame. So I think it needs a long term view with a significant amount of patience which for me makes this a joint opportunity, you know, a challenge from both business and government. Because I think some of what we're talking about, systemic issues of education, schooling and how we further the development of skills that are coming up further specific business. It's interesting, I reflected on what we discussed two years ago and you might recall I mentioned Google as a company that started offering learning through their own resources which would then allow people to apply and get a job at Google without having a fully furnished degree and taken away basically the need for this accreditation which would be very expensive. I looked at the site again today and over the last couple of years they have put 9 million people as a private business through this. But not just people who work at Google, of course they've extended this into the broader economy and allowed many more people outside of their direct ecosystem to benefit from this. And I think that is in both an honorable and smart and impactful way of driving significant change that is needed to get us out of this significant skill shortage.

The next couple of years. Right. Again on that. When you think about a solution provider like Pontoon, you know you mentioned a kind of mantra earlier on around beyond talent acquisition. Talk to me about where you see your industry going in terms of how it provides solutions and what you're particularly thinking about even in terms of Pontoon solution. Pontoons can have solution set because obviously most of most of our listeners, if they're familiar with Adeco Group, Pontoon and other vendors in that space, they think about, you know, recruiting. It was a very standard model in their head. What do you see that's different within Pontoon but also perhaps in the wider industry?

Yeah, I'm happy to give you some context. So tying it back to the conversation earlier. If our job is to help companies win in this open talent economy and effectively turn their workforce into a true force. Right Then we also need to reimagine our own way forward and how we do that because the current approaches, solutions and tools, they're perfectly suited for a world that no longer exists. So we're the first ones, I'm the first one to acknowledge we need to change. Our ambition is to become the effectively the workforce operating system for some of the best businesses in the world who are embracing to going on this journey. We believe to do so you need to have a significant impactful capability to provide advice insights because the complexity around these shifts that we described is significant and that needs to be design thinking led, that needs to ensure it has efficacy and execution. It needs to be co creative and it needs to shine a light into areas where simply there's an overwhelming complexity for businesses. I think this needs to. This advice layer needs to be complemented with a deep data analytics capability so companies can make better decisions and we need to bring them true decision intelligence that allows quite frankly our buyers who are not always able to move the internal organizations hard facts that impact business decisions allow managers and leaders to make more first right decisions. And then where I think we also need to shift to and I touched on this to more where we today a service business that's digitally enabled. We have to have a digital core that is service enabled that allows us to orchestrate these diversity of employment models for our clients where we then integrate to your point beforehand, not just the hiring but the learning and development, the upskilling and reskilling, the internal mobility because of the core skill sets that we have as a managed service provider extend to this. And embedded in all that is the experience. The experience has to be absolute core for everything that we deliver. And I feel that is the future of Pontoon. And you know, I'm excited to be on that journey.

I think, I think I love that vision. I think it's organizations are struggling with this more joined up approach to talent. I think you're right, it's no longer just about talent. Acquisition whilst that's still vitally important the connection between mobility, diversity and inclusion more equity in the business retention L and D they've never been stronger and most organizations are struggling with this. They really don't know how to navigate this new world and it is changing fast. And having a provider who thinks more holistically I think is is certainly something that the market's looking for and it has.

The last thing I want to say is like there's hard proof that and and studies companies who get this right who have like true dynamic resource allocation models where they bring in what you just said. The upscale and reskill and train development are more than two times likely to outperform competitor shareholder value. So it's not a nice thing to do. And I do think we need to do a better job as an industry as a whole to to evangelize we are to the where I take ourselves into where criticize our industry and again ourselves here is we are. We're not we we're too inclusive. We're using terms that the business doesn't understand. We having our own language, we're having our own events which is all good but we need to be more accessible to the business and become more relevant as an industry to make a true shift. And I think that's where I'm taking us all into account and hope we can move the needle together.

I recall sharing a story of the last week about a friend of mine. Oh had he used to run a global TA for Intel. I remember talking to Ohad about his metrics a couple of years ago as a VP of TA in a huge organization. And he spoke about how the the traditional model in TA which would have been perhaps around time to hire, time to fill. He realized quite quickly as he went didn't care about those metrics. The business owners cared about time to ramp as well. They have a body missing and they want somebody back productive in that role. And just that different perspective of metrics made him think about a very different approach to how we solve the problem which wasn't just the traditional get someone contracted or hired. It was a much bigger problem to solve. And I think this is the perhaps disconnect that existed over the years between the business and perhaps a function like ta. The job was never to hire people. The job was to make sure that people are there getting the jobs done.

You've I think you nailed it there and I I think that's very smart. Ask better questions and you get better answers. And so the the point of vacancy rate you know which is very similar to what you described is is big. When we have a different metric to aim at we find better solutions. We had the same thing with a client. Because then you ask yourself where does this come from? And you become a business improvement consultant. To your point, not just on the TA side. How do I move from open broads and how to fill them to outcomes and how to achieve them. And that comes back to getting the right work done. And so this is, this is very line thinking and hope more people push themselves and push each other to move in that direction because then we increase relevance. We in the best industry ever, you work with people. We can all be, we can all agree this is. There couldn't be anything more interesting. But we have a job to do collectively to make ourselves more relevant to the business.

Last week on the show we had Nick Maley. Nick Maley who kind of worked for Intuit and done wonderful things different companies over the years. We were sharing about who is his current company to solve the talent crisis. They look to try and open up new sources of under serviced talent. It wasn't a diversity and inclusion effort. It was a Phil Jobs effort. And it required a very different approach. Teach the business how to look for ways to screen in versus screen out folks to think about how do you join L and D opportunities really look at where different folks should fit in terms of their mobility for future years. And they managed to over several years reduce the cost of acquisition by 50% and increase the diversity by 2x just by approaching the problem differently. I think this is where to go back to one of your early points Kristof. This is where it's about opportunity. It's about, you know, this, you know, unique time we face. Something to fix or respond to. It's perhaps a really good opportunity to change things. You spoke about asking better questions. I think it's similar to saying no back in the 1910s. People asking for faster horses until Henry Ford gave them the automobile.

I read it resonate with that a lot. I mean the, the typical way that we all think about is that business strategy is driving a talent. Strategy makes sense. We have a business goal and then we need to figure out what's the talent that it can achieve it. Why don't we reframe that in context that talent is available in so many different ways. How can that shape and drive your business strategy? To your point, if you know that talent is available and I haven't listened to that episode maybe in a different country or from a, from a, from a Background that's typically overlooked. How can that be your competitive advantage going forward because you accidentally talent pool and how can that then drive your business strategy? I think these are the right questions to ask to move us forward.

Kristoff, we're nearly at the end of the show. We've, we powered through a lot of, a lot of questions and great insight. I really appreciate the insight you brought and thank you for your patience with my power cut where I'm broadcasting from today where everywhere around me all of a sudden lost power. Hopefully this isn't the beginning of the recession. It's an energy but we are at that point where I know it's been two years but you've so much wisdom to offer. I'd love to see if you could offer another perhaps piece of advice to leave our audience with here today to add to our shortlist. Whether it be something that you've gathered from your own experience or has been passed down to you from others. What advice would you like to leave us? As we head into winter in the northern hemisphere in 2022 and we face this unique opportunity in the world of talent.

Seek proximity. I've reflected on this a lot over the last two years. I started my, this job here in the heart of the pandemic and I got me to. It took me six months to meet my first pontoona employee in person. And while we all became used to doing what we're doing here, doing it virtually, which is easy, right? And we can all talk about the benefits of, of that. I think we all have an opportunity to seek proximity with a colleague. It could be as simple as, you know, asking them not just how they are, how you're doing, but how you're feeling and actually listening show you that you care. You know, with someone, if I think about someone who's young in their career, I would definitely recommend for them to seek proximity and that might even happen in an office. I know that might not be popular advice, but this is where you can build relationships and find mentors. If more of the senior people, more of the people that potentially make a decision on your promotion on the office and you know, find your mentors there because their mentors are people who become personally and emotionally invested in your success and sometimes it's about that proximity with your family, same thing. And then think there's a reminder to myself because this advice goes to me with, with, with network play long term games with long term people. Johnny, you have been a great connect. We never met in person but you know, we, we often Ping with each other. You make valuable introductions to me, to other people. And I think that only comes from proximity. So that's my advice. Seek proximity.

We're going to fix that proximity. About us not having met in person, I kind of forget because I've embraced the virtual world for the last two and a half years so much. I need reminders, oh, we've never met that person in person. Colleagues of mine never met in person. Who 9 months later I'm surprised at, they go, oh yeah, this is the first time in person. But you're right, I think it's taking the opportunity for proximity when it is offered. I think there's a question over forced proximity in some organizations at the moment where they're, you know, they're, they're forcing proximity when it may not be necessary all the time. But that's not to say that proximity isn't a good thing. I think everyone wants it, but it's take the opportunity. You know, you might go, oh, it's a half day in the office or a day in the office. But it can be wonderful, particularly if it's your choice to do it. I think people are getting huge benefit from, from, from, from doing that again and getting back to that world. Chris, been a pleasure to have you back on the show. I do hope we get you again. Not hopefully it doesn't take two years to get you back. And let's try and solve that proximity problem. I'll be in New York over the next few months and let's try and make that happen.

Fantastic. Looking forward to it. Thank you again and thank you for.

Listening to the show today, for joining us on the podcast. If you're listening to your podcast on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts or joining us live if you join us live on LinkedIn and YouTube. We'll be back next week where we've got a recap show where we recapping over Yasser Ahmed's fantastic visit to the podcast a few months ago, talking about what he's been doing in HelloFresh with his team in the talent environment and then back for brand new show again in two weeks time. You'll catch next week's show come Wednesday evening wherever you are in the world or Thursday morning for sure in your podcast app. Or do join us live and you can check out my profile or go to socialtown.com the shortlist. Until then, have a great week. There.