Reinventing the Employee Value Proposition | with Ger Finn

Foreign.

Welcome everybody to episode number 68 of the shortlist. My name is Johnny Campbell. I am your host of today's live broadcast and podcast. I'm also the CEO and co founder of Social Talent, the hiring skills platform. You're very welcome to today's show. Today's show is all about reinvention, in fact, reinvention of a specific thing, the employee value proposition, or evp. So today's guest is going to come, is joining us from San Francisco whilst I'm here in Dublin to discuss this kind of big hot topic that has been bubbling away for the last 18 months. And we're going to try and really get stuck into it. But before we do, let me just remind those of you listening live that you're very welcome. We welcome all your live questions and chat and you can add them into the chat on LinkedIn or on YouTube. For those of you listening to the podcast, you're also very welcome back. Forget to follow us whether you're on Spotify, Apple or wherever you consume your podcasts. But we'll also put any links that we reference here in the show notes. Those of you listening live, we'll put it out on the live chat. You can find out more about our show, upcoming shows, previous shows by going to socialtowns.com the shortlist so Covid, right? We're always talking about COVID and the pandemic, it seems right, but it's a pretty big thing in the people and culture space. But it really flipped the, the script for the workplace and for talent. And we can kind of can't really get through an episode these days since we started, this is episode 68 without talking about it. And of course, the pandemic brought about a wave of negative impacts, particularly early on. And for many of you, many of you, you're still suffering some of those negative impacts. But it also brought a great opportunity for change and it brought perspective on what's important for people, for organizations, and unlocked arguably a huge amount of potential for a new way of working and operating. And people are different, we're all different since the start of this pandemic. And if organizations want to attract and retain key talent, they have to recognize that we're different and they have to plan for this. So joining us today, as I said, from the west coast of the United States is Jer Finn, a woman who hails from Galway but has been on the other west coast for the last number of years. And Jer is the senior director of people, Strategy, Operations and Innovation at Twitter. And Jer is joining us today to discuss the inevitable evolution of the evp. We'll be looking at how priorities for workers have shifted, why community is so important in this kind of remote or hybrid world, and what can and should be done to both retain employees and to kind of stem the tide of this mass level of resignations we're all hearing about. But firstly, Jer, what's with the long job title? You seem to be in charge of everything. Tell us a bit more about what you do and perhaps shine a light on your background in terms of, particularly for those TA and recruiting listeners and viewers we have today.

Yeah, the title sounds a bit more complicated than it actually is. And hi, thanks for having me. Really excited for these chats and curious as to where we go in the course of the next 40 minutes. Yeah, look, my background has been in HR&TA, as HRVP and as a TA lead both EMEA, US and globally for years. I run businesses separately as an md, and all of that kind of culminates in what I'm doing now. And that is very simply understanding, identifying and setting out the right people strategy at the right time for us to achieve what's critically important. Growth, retention, productivity. So it's all about, what is that strategy, how do we execute it, and what are the things that we need to do differently to execute it for success? You know, that's it in a nutshell.

Joe, we've had several conversations over the year, some involving alcohol, hopefully most not people's strategy. I want to focus today on your opinions because we've known each other a long time and I'm always fascinated by your perspective on the world. So not so much about what Twitter's doing, but I want to talk about what you're seeing in the world and your thoughts are on EVP culture and people in a more general sense and in the market, and maybe your insights on companies you see in San Francisco you're exposed to. But what else is happening out there? And to do that, I thought, to give it context, we uncovered what I think is a really good article from a couple of months ago in Gartner. But that's always my cue. Jared, this part of the show, just so you know, we have to go to our little jingle for the news. Sorry about that, Jer. It just happens. I don't know where that music comes from. Every time I say the word news, say news and boom, it's in there. So I wanted to maybe open the discussion, Jer, with this, our article from Gartner. We'll share the notes here and it's entitled Make Way for a More Human Centric Employee Value Proposition. And just to summarize for our listeners who probably haven't read this and you haven't and you're interested in this topic, you really should, in my opinion. Anyway, it covers kind of some weaknesses in the traditional EVP that we kind of probably had going into the pandemic. And it describes in kind of four, five categories, if you like, what the new EVP needs to have. And I'll summarize just what the article says. It talks about deeper connections, radical flexibility, personal growth, holistic well being, and shared purpose. But firstly, want to get your thoughts on the article. You know, do you agree with the assertion that EVP was on shaky ground going into the pandemic? And then what are your thoughts on Gartner's proposition on the kind of five core pillars to look at coming out of this?

Yeah, so I think undeniably the value proposition has to evolve and quickly and significantly. I don't know that I think it was on shaky ground before the pandemic. And actually I remember going to an event Josh Burson was talking at in 2019, and even then he was talking about all of this like trust as a central cornerstone and that role of the employer and how, you know, what constitutes value for the employee was different and changing. I think we were already on that path whether we were aware of it or not. I think what we've experienced in the last 18 months has just sent us hurtling down that path and the need is much greater. I think a couple of things I would say about evp, I thought the sec, I thought the description of like what was important was very apt. And I think a couple of those warrant maybe a little more discussion. And they talked about deeper connection, radical flexibility, growth, well being, and shared purpose. And I absolutely believe in all those. I do think in addition to that, you need to talk about the holistic environment that you provide for people and how they experience work. It's kind of the sum of the parts and I think it's implied in a number of the sections. But I think psychological safety has become a massive factor and I think that's driven by our environment and all of the existential threat and concerns we've had over the last 18 months. And every, you know, when you think about it, everything we pretty much counted on as solid and safe got kind of thrown into question. And reading a great article about anticipatory grief recently, like all of a sudden everything was at risk, loved ones, career, where you lived, what was going to happen. Are we safe in that context? When work is the vast majority of your hours, you've got to feel safe there. And I think people have really looked for more reassurance there where they're not feeding it in all the parts of their life that would regularly give that to them. So that really interesting article definitely agreed with the components it set out. I thought it was really interesting about the deeper connections piece, talking about communities and I probably have a bit of a different view here, but I think communities, I think in a lot of companies communities became very internal and work based. And where you had in the past, people moving for jobs, leaving their family, their friends to base, going to new locations for jobs, work, the gay community. In a pandemic, when things happen very quickly, that can be incredibly isolating. I think the role of community and work and in your locality where you are, I think how we look at that and how employers support both parts of community or both experiences of community has changed in the past. I think we employers didn't really lean into a lot of that. And I actually think our role and our responsibility in those areas has expanded massively. We're in uncharted territory quite a bit. And then that extends into the wellbeing piece. Look, most companies have had employee assistance programs and access to different benefits and so on. It's not about just providing access to those things now Employers have to be really intentional to respond to what are very real, rapidly evolving needs and folks day to day. But it's not just about oh, it's there used if you want companies have responsibility not to make sure people are engaging in offerings like that for the well being. And again, the role has really changed there. It's far more involved and far more important.

Tony, A couple of years ago, before the pandemic, I'd attended a talk from a friend of mine, Jason Laurids, at one of the HR conferences, SHRM conference in the US the last one I was actually at in person and he spoke about love. We talked about how leaders need to need to demonstrate love to their team. And he described it in the same way he would in friendship and in family. And you have to say, caring about the bigger picture. And it was, you know, to your point around, these things aren't new, right? It was kind of controversial and most people I think would have probably scoffed at the idea and they, they would actually probably with the HR hat, traditional HR hat say don't mention love in the workplace. That's a nightmare. That's dangerous. But his point was around more, you know, friendship and the love you have in a friendship and respect for somebody in the bigger picture. And sometimes, sometimes, you know, they need you, sometimes they're there for you and that kind of give and take. One of the things that the article mentioned you brought out there is that the traditional EVP talks about you in the context of the workplace and the work environment almost exclusively. And it was, you know, it doubled down on that and it was all about that. But it was kind of saying like it's not our business what you do outside that and we're only going to be focused on this and that's okay. Whereas today, to your point, you know, we have to take that wider view and your point around, you know, well being initiatives. It's not just having them and saying we provide them, which might be the traditional tick box. It's going, are people taking time off, are they making sure they're okay? Because it's important. This person needs to be well adjusted, feeling good about themselves. If they got stuff going on in their lives, they're not going to be able to do their job properly and we need to help them as a wider person. Do you think people are still uncomfortable with that? With having crossed that line that was there so clearly for so long and almost being asked to constantly make sure you're crossing the line. Is that analogy even working anymore? That there is a line?

Yeah. So first of all, I think at a base level we've gone from everyone used to talk about the employee experience and actually that's moved now. And I think it's about the employee life experience. Like, you know, as a company working in HR in ta, you gotta think beyond what is their experience of this process or experience at work to in terms of life, how is this impacting life? And I think that's a critical shift. I think we're on our way to that not being aligned, Johnny. Like we're on our way to it being an expectation. I think traditionally we have been hesitant and afraid because like, you know, if you open the door, is it actually a floodgate what happens, how? But it's, it doesn't matter. You know, there's no no to those issues anymore. You've got to start with a yes and how can I help? And why is this important? I do think it will be the cornerstone of successful companies going forward and environments in which people want to want to join because it has such a tangible, outsized impact to your life experience how you feel Every day. And I think we contorted ourselves for an awful long time. I've got crazy stuff going on at work. I gotta show up and be super professional and be there from nine to whatever. And I gotta deliver above and beyond. And I do think the last 18 months has pushed, pushed us past a point of being able to cope and do that. Almost contortion or segmentation of our lives. And I just think it's brought real meaning to your whole self at work. And when I look at what people are talking about now in terms of leadership management, it's not just about I can set okrs, I can manage and give feet like soft skills, empathy, compassion, but not performatively so like compassion and care in a very real, true sense are going to be the defining characteristics of leaders and managers that people want to work for and with and you know, define companies and environments they want to work in and be part of. And while people may be uncomfortable with it, and I do think, I think not all industries will get comfortable at the same pace, not all cultures will adapt or adopt that as quickly or as easily as others. I do think in the knowledge economy that's where it's going and people are going to have to get comfortable with it pretty quickly. I actually think the discomfort in the future will be the conflicts that happen where we don't step into. In the past it was when we did cross that line. As you put it, in the future it's going to be where we're stopping at a line that is no longer acknowledged or recognized as valid by the people you work with. And for.

You know, it comes down to the day to day issues you're going to deal with as a leader or as a colleague. You know, somebody's coming to you saying, I have this thing going on in my life and the manager, our leader doesn't have a response, is not willing to get involved, is uncomfortable with getting involved. Then the employees, you know, disconnecting like crazy. This person doesn't care for me. They've, they've told me that I'm part of their team, they support me, they want me to win. And then I come with this big thing and they're like, yeah, sorry, not for me, you know, don't bring that to work. The expectation is, is vast now from the employee, what they want from their employer. And what we really mean from when we say their employer, it's the people who work there, right? And their leaders, the people around them, they want a different, a different thing. But Jer, do you Think that. Do you think that the skills are there in the leaders? Do you think organizations are responding fast enough to enable them with those skills? You mentioned develop more of the soft skills of those core transferable skills? Is your sense that the smart organizations are recognizing them, putting in place tactics to try and develop those skills, to measure them, to make sure that everyone understands this is the new role or is it just really informal and still very ad hoc?

Yeah, two things actually. I don't think it's just about people having that skills and did they have them in the first? I think everybody innately has the. For professional care. And I think first of all, you've got to start with the company and the environment. And I've been using this phrase lately about creating space for managers to provide that experience with their teams. As a company, you know, you can't sit there and go, hey, managers, you're responsible for this. Make it happen. You've got to put the structures in place. That creates space for people to be in there and that's around. You know, those conversations are difficult. They're not going to be not difficult. Right. Someone's got some big person going, they may not want to share it. What you've got to do is create flexibility and choice in the workplace and the work policies and that experience. And I say those things separately because flexibility, like you can provide options and you can say, you know, we'll provide flexibility around hours or days or, you know, the benefits you take, but you also have to couple that with choice. People have to be empowered to make a choice and not in and out of those. If you have a sweet. That sounds a bit corny, but if you have those aspects of flexibility and you genuinely give people the choice to utilize that when they need it in their life, makes navigating that a whole lot simpler. If you don't do that, you're kind of hanging your managers out to try because. Because then they're living a conflict every day, you know. So I do think it's two part. Of course it's about the skill, the soft skills, the compassion and care, the focus on more than I think the last time we talked about that, I talked about everything is a process of input. You process the input and you get an output. I think we're very much going to have to embrace the focus on the output and the flexibility and choice allows what people to decide what they put in and how that gets processed to become your product. You're getting your work done, but you can't get there. That output Focus if you're not giving people flexibility and choice and managers can't support their people well enough, they don't feel safe in that kind of ecosystem, that those options are there and that the company genuinely wants to recognize reward and values that balance. So, you know, managers can't do it all on their own. There is some of the work around the structure and the process, the options and the choice, and about being really intentional about all of that, that will allow that compassion care to show up in a way that is productive and it doesn't become uncomfortable in itself. So I think it's two part. And I think people have those innate skills. I think people need time to adjust from where you probably didn't use them as much to where it's now an expectation. And you got to give them the supports to get there.

The supports is so, so right. It's the kind of processes work gives you license to then utilize your innate skills. Right. You have the right to use it. And I saw a really good way of representing flexibility and the Gartner article touched on it, but it talked about flexibility on the X, Y and Z axis. Those three axes being place, which we've all been forced to do. And we're learning about how to be flexible on place where you do your work time, which many of us are still coming to terms with working different times, not being all the same schedule, just working remotely. And the third being what you work on that, you know, ultimately that's the, that's the real kind of requirement is to have flexibility on those three axes, which just require, especially the third piece absolutely requires great process. You need to have really good process to understand like what are our measurable outputs? Your point about inputs and outputs, how are we measuring the outputs? Have we really thought about that? What's our system for doing that? How regularly are we doing that as well? What's the consequences of not achieving those outputs? What's the process in that? And then you work back to, you know, time. If you're, you're opening up time as a flexible option, you need protocols on communication and how we work together. You know, do you have to attend meetings that are in person? What kind of meetings should be in person, what time? What have you working different time zones, what's the protocol? You need a lot of detail on this. It actually increases the burden of process arguably to do this right, to have real clarity. And you need transparency. It's mentioned as a separate piece, but you can't have all that without transparency about how it all works. And then feedback loops as well. So it does require an unbelievable shift in the cultural focus and what we prioritize and what we do from a process perspective to allow, to your point, the managers to actually do what they. They probably have the skills to do anyway, but they don't know if they're allowed to do that or how to do that.

Yeah, and it's interesting. So, like that input, process, output thing is such a base model and I think it's a really good lens to look at things and what you described, that three axes, like when I think about that, there's a fourth axis which kind of goes through them all, but I kind of call it separately. So it is. So I think everyone originally thought flexibility was location and definitely now it's more also the times that you do that and that's flexibility too, then it's, you know, what you work on. And then I think that the fourth piece is how you work. And I don't understand cold and formulaic, but you have to create clarity, as you said, on how people will work together, given a ton of our variables and inputs have changed. And I know we're having a more general chat, but it's interesting. One of the things that we did in the last year, so simple, so impactful, we started doing team working agreements where we would pop in how we like to be contacted. Like, I've got folks on my team are like, do not slap me, I cannot stand it. And others were like, only slack me. You know, like, don't contact me in these hours, but do in these. Hit me with an email for this kind of thing. And we've gone through and you know, do you want to be. Is it dm? Is it slack? Is it email? Do you want to do meetings? Do you want to do async? How do we manage async? What are the standard principles we adopt as a team to level the playing field amongst us all across multiple time zones? So I think underpinning all of that is the how we work. And we definitely need to provide some consistency and clarity there around the general framework, which then people can be flexible around and choose. So just as you're going through those three axes, I think that's the. I think I would call that out as a fourth which, like underpins all of them. But it's just so critically important, you know, if we're really going to do this, we've got to figure out new ways to collaborate. How we get work done is going to change. And if we leave it up to people Just figuring it out themselves. We'll have different versions of that, which is fine, but if people don't know and aren't transparent about it, it gives rise to like dragging the system, friction, misunderstanding. So yeah, I think that fourth, that fourth dimension on the how is going to be super important. And that's where I see a lot of people putting a lot of focus now. We're what, a year and a half into a forced change in our working experience, which is working remote from the place in which we normally worked and the teams in which we normally worked and collaborated. We know that just trying to replicate how we did things in the office remotely is exhausting and not good for anybody's mental well being. So we're really going to have to be intentional and thoughtful about what changes now. Because the exciting thing about all this, it's so easy to get caught up in, oh, this is tough and everything's changed. The exciting thing here is we have an opportunity to completely redesign how we experience our whole lives. With work as a big part of that in a lot of people's cases, and being intentional about that, now we can genuinely redesign and like throw out a lot of the assumptions that were core tenets that may not have been serving us well. I don't think we've actually, certainly not en masse, questioned some of those tenets in the past. And I think there's a huge opportunity for us now to manifest real change that could significantly improve the quality of our life. Yes, we're in this lots of existential threat over the last year, lots of challenge things we've never dreamt of facing really. But in the not too distant future, everything crossed, we will move into a different phase which will be hybrid work or work from home or work from office or whatever. And it won't be because it's forced and it won't be against a pack and trough of a, that existential threat of a pandemic and other stuff. And we have to be really intentional that we don't like, we don't want to just slip into that from a place of. We had to and we figured it out and it was rough and ready. A real opportunity to intentionally design in a way that could really significantly shift the quality of life and work and how we experience those life together.

And I massively share your excitement, enthusiasm, support for that future. Let's talk about the gray middle, the times we're in today, which is we're not there yet. Companies are at various different degrees on that spectrum of getting there and you have an environment where people are resigning at record levels, retiring record levels, because it's theorized in response to perhaps discontent with what they're seeing. Perhaps there isn't clarity right what direction the company's going. They haven't committed to these things. They're only early, at the early stages of doing that. You have this kind of great resignation that's been coined and the great retirement and other things going on at the moment. And people are also having demonstrations to be leaving jobs not because they don't like their employer, but because, for example, they don't have the flexibility or they're willing to take pay cuts. So you have this kind of gray period of time. And it's also the data Suggests from the U.S. bureau of Labor Statistics being a source. July was the, which was the month we have data on. Most recently was the record breaking month for positions advertised in the market. So this unbelievable employment market, you have people resigning for tons of different reasons than they used to. If you're an employer in the middle of this with one of two challenges, maybe you can address each one separately if you feel it's important to be separate. How do you attract the talent? How do you represent your EVP out there to attract that talent on the other side? How are you looking at your EVP more internally to make sure that you're not leading talent, that you're keeping the great talent in your organization? How would you, how would you do that now? Not the future, when it's all changed, when we're hoping this new place, but when we're in this talent crisis that we're in right now. What are your recommendations?

Yeah, so, gosh, so many angles and parts to this. Let's start with attracting talent. So I think when you think about an evp, I think traditionally that's been something we look at every now and again and we update infrequently and it tends to morph. I think how we look at that is fundamentally different. And for both attracting talent and for your internally vp, the key now is truly understanding what people need now. And I think that means pace and how we get feedback, how we learn what people want. Like the amount of time, attention and investment in that, like has to change significantly because we can't be guessing. There's no need to guess there. And you see companies going from an annual pulse to more frequent pulse. But if that's not going to be enough and it's, you need the deep analysis of that and that data, you need like to meet people in moments of difficulty and stress, whether that's listening circles or opportunities for feedback, be that anonymous or otherwise. Open discussions about the hard stuff. You cannot shut that stuff away. You kind of have to meet it as it happens, openly, which is the trust, transparency, vulnerability thing kicking in again. But if you do that, the rewards are a real understanding of what people value. And I think in the past we made broad assumptions about what those things are. And I think what we now need to realize is everybody's experience is different, which is why you must have flexibility and choice at the core of what you're doing. And I think that has equal importance for people you attract and people that you are already part of your organization that you want to retain. I think there's a real. People don't want to hear about the performative stuff. Like, you've got to follow up what you're saying with action and consistent action commitment to what you're doing. I was talking to somebody recently. We were talking about, you know, companies focused on diversity and inclusion. And it's. It's got to be more than just talking about it. Like, this is about working hard to get people where they are, give them opportunity to bring them in. That requires a lot of investment to change in your process, how you do things and what you reward and incentivize. So I think people are very sensitive to what could be seen as performative now versus are you doing the hard work? When it's not just a popular thing to be talking about, which really comes back fundamentally to that purpose. That was one of the things in the article, like a shared purpose is critical. I mean, we all talk about that, but I genuinely don't think it's ever been as important because you mentioned it, this talk of a mass resignation. So my one caveat here is we all go through moments of something triggers us in our life or in our year or whatever that gets us thinking about, you know, my purpose, my place in the world. Am I doing the right thing? Is this what I want? I think what's really incredible about right now is we've all been triggered at the same time to have this really deep conversation with ourselves. So I do think that's a part of it. I mean, I think that's wonderful that people feel empowered to lean into that and make decisions that helps them reconcile and be happy with those choices better. So I do think that's a huge part of it. But that's why purpose is so incredibly important. And, you know, as we work right now in a pandemic, working remote from where we used to be versus like voluntarily working from home in the like is a lot of work is one to one, like screen to screen. Connection to that purpose and how strongly people work by the values and principles that are embedded in that company defines everybody's individual experience. And to me now it's about, you know, is what we're saying purpose, values, principle, adding up to what people's experiences are. And if not, then I think you're going to see people making choices to leave, look for different things. But I also think if you are and you're doing that hard work, you always get it perfect. But if you're doing the hard work around those things, they're the things that replicate through people who've left the company. Like, that's what attracts new talent. Hearing about genuinely, do they follow through and what they say they follow through. Are those values actually centrally held? Will I experience them day to day? That's the huge piece right now. When I talk to people who are looking to move, that's what they want to know. They're talking to people they're connecting with people they don't know. Going talk to me about their experience at work. Is that real? So I think there's no tolerance for the performative. People aren't drinking that Kool Aid. It is about, are we doing the hard work and following through on that stuff? I think that was always a factor. I just think it's multiplied many, many times.

Right now there's a great quote, a comment here from Simon Wilkins, who's listening, saying life choices are being made instead of chasing the conventional career ladder. I think that's a really good point. Isn't just about how do I get to A to Z for my career. It's like, what's going to give me the best next move for my life, which perhaps we didn't have quite to the same degree before.

Well, people aren't anchored to that ladder anymore. I think there's something incredibly powerful and wonderful about that kind of freedom and people realizing that there is, there is choice. So, yeah, I love that comment.

That's nice. So if you look at, you know, going forward, you know, again, back to the market we're in at the moment, how would you differentiate yourself through your EVP at the moment? If you're looking at your traction strategy, let's say you are in an organization that have committed to these things. They have, let's say, the flexibility we're talking about, you're making strides to those, you know, one, how do you, how do you best go about communicating that and then is there a risk that if everybody eventually gets there that we have no differentiation left? Again.

Wow. The last thing makes it sound all a bit futile, so I'll come to that last maybe. So first of all, how you differentiate yourself. I think we've kind of talked about a lot of it already, but it is flexibility and it is choice. It is about moving from what is the employee experience to that life experience and the active role a company plays in delivering a better life experience through the influence of work. And I think that there's two pieces to that and one is that focus on well being and again it not being performative but being involved, purposeful, intentional. I think the second piece under that is that transparency piece which fundamentally builds trust. Here's what's interesting. I think we've gone through a massive period of change and I think a lot of that change, a lot of the circumstances we're experiencing will be temporary, albeit they don't feel temporary. There will be a point where we are making free choices about where we work and how we work. And just like none of us could have predicted quite all of what's happened in the last 18 months, we can't really predict what that's going to be. And as people come through this period of reflection, like this mass, synchronous global moment of reflection, you don't know what's going to come out of that, where it's going to land. So I think a key differentiator is be honest about that and don't become complacent about it. You could very easily take a view of things now, which would be disproportionately informed by a negative backdrop of forced change versus intentional design for what's right. You have to be very careful and go, I don't know. But I'm going to stay very close. I'm going to actively listen and I'm going to be intentional about what we do on a regular basis so that we're updating almost constantly that it's not. I've looked at it, I've decided this, that we're going to do this for you. It's absolutely going to have to be co creative. People want to know that they have real time influence on how things are going. And I think that kind of transparency about, look, I don't know, but talk to me about whatever. Like let's, let's figure this out and we're going to keep reviewing it. Versus I think, I think there's, there's the risk that people will be so desperate for clarity they'll go, okay, we've decided this is what we're doing. It's hybrid and it looks like this. We are about, we're about to go into the greatest period of test pilot, co create, iterate or at least we should ever. And I think that it's very important to be transparent. We don't know what it is. We want to figure it out. It's going to continue to change and that you're meeting people exactly where they are with their needs. Not. I've taken a view of what I think you might want. I'm going to do it for you. Let's state communicating. I'm going to be transparent. What you are thinking is let's figure out what works and give me that feedback on did it hit the mark, did it not? And that constant, almost incremental evolution of those things as we experience things differently. Because just as we're all having this mass moment that's going to continue just in different ways with more option versus it being foisted on. And I think that's the differentiator is like that honesty and transparency. What we don't know it all, but we are here for it and we want to figure it out with you because that's what's going to lead to a design of an employee life experience that allows people to flex in a way that works for them. And that's not the same for any two people. Really.

It'S not. And you know, if I look at it from summarizing some of the things you've said there, at least as I'm hearing them you mentioned at the start choice and flexibility. And it's almost making sure that you also bring choice into the flexibility in that, you know, rather than saying this is how we're going to do flexibility. Because flexibility doesn't mean the same to everybody. Choice starts with cooperation, involvement, getting people, you know, involved from the start and design of this future. There isn't a template to that just steal. It's not like go steal the Twitter template or the GitLab template or etc. It's like, look at these things, they're all interesting. Nobody actually knows where it's going to end up to your point. But let's get involved with the conversation. Let's get everyone's feedback, let's get our thoughts. We may make mistakes, but let's constantly iterate and get that feedback on that process and let's see where it leads us, guided by the company's necessity to get things done, and that's having that focus on output. What are the clear outputs we still need to have in place at these timelines? We still need to sell stuff, build stuff, design stuff, deliver stuff, support stuff, whatever that might look like. It's not a massive big hippie experiment to go figure out the world and be all.