Strip it back: Creating conversations around diversity | with Salma El-Wardany

Foreign. Welcome, folks, to the 50th episode of the Shortlist. I'm Johnny Campbell. You're a host for the show, CEO and co founder of Social Talent, the learning platform for hiring teams and growth organizations. It's a pleasure to have you here for the first time, the 50th time, the 25th time, the second time, we're. Whatever number it is, you're very welcome. The Shortlist is, of course, as you hopefully know by now, weekly show we broadcast live on LinkedIn and YouTube. And hopefully today we'll have some live contributions from our listeners and viewers. But we also are a podcast that is available most Wednesday evenings, depending on where you are in the world, right? Not going to assume, but let's say by Thursday morning it's typically available in Apple, Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts. If you want to know more about the show, please do check out our website and you can check out our link@socialtalent.com the shortlist, where you'll find our list, our back catalog of shows and our future shows coming up there as well. And find out a little bit more about how you could perhaps get involved in the show as well. But Today on our 50th show, we're going to be delving into language. We're going to be talking about talking, in fact, we're going to be talking about talking about diversity. And our lesson or our kind of conversation today is strip it back. We want to talk about how do you create conversations around, around diversity? And this comes from what I think most of us, or most of you perhaps might find is that we're not all 100% comfortable on what we can and cannot say these days. I'm using air quotes for those of you listening on the podcast, and that's okay, but we want to have a good conversation around that because, you know, water cooler chats, you know, right now in the middle of a pandemic still might be a thing of the past. But we can all remember instances where perhaps you bump into somebody or do you remember we used to go to conferences or events and, and you'd see someone, you know them, you couldn't remember their name. And you have big conversations and it becomes more awkward the next time you see them the next time. And it just becomes more awkward. You just can't possibly ask them the name at that point. It's kind of the same when it comes to the language around diversity in terms of, you know, being uncomfortable the first time we meet somebody who believe perhaps we should Be using a different pronoun for, for example, we don't do it the first time because we're, you know, just kind of fearful of our ignorance. Ignorance is even too harsh a word of our, you know, just lack of language, our comfort with the language. And therefore it becomes the second and third time and we retreat into this world. We just never stop to figure out why. So whether it's, you know, non binary or the use of different pronouns and titles, you know, these are new concepts for many of us. It wasn't so much a challenge 10 years ago, but it is today. It's something that we've had to move on with and it's good where we always evolve in terms of our use of language. So we thought it was really appropriate today on our 50th show as well to bring back a guest a really loved having on last year, and that's Sama Elwardani. And Sama's been a good friend over the last years. She's a broadcaster in her own right with a much bigger audience than myself or this show. And she's also someone I think you know, you'll also find, if you haven't heard Salma speak before, just unbelievably passionate about this topic, but much more importantly for today, knowledgeable about this topic and she's covered these issues. She's going to introduce herself in a second, but she's the founder of Digitally Human. She comes from a recruiting and talent acquisition background herself, so very familiar with many of the themes we discuss here on the show and she's going to hopefully get us to get more comfortable around asking those uncomfortable questions and discussing those. What we find might find uncomfortable issues. Salma, welcome to the show. Maybe you can introduce, reintroduce yourself and give us a bit of an update on what you've been doing and, you know, why this topic appeals to you.

Jonny, thank you for having me back. I always feel like the first time you get invited could be a fluke second time then you're actually friends and family at this point. So it's lovely to be back. Thanks, everyone. Yes, I will introduce myself again, although you did it so well. I am the founder of Digitally Human, which is a marketing business and works specifically with talent acquisition across the entire spectrum of the industry. So that's everything from attraction, retention, hiring, employer, brand, and also as the years have gone by, along with my other passion, which are diversity and how we create a more equitable world for everyone, those things have kind of just merged as I've gone along and as the climate has changed for what we need in business and as we've just naturally evolved, which is incredible, diversity, inclusion just seeped into everything that I was doing. So when we were building employer brands, it was about building employer brands that could be diverse, that could attract a diverse audience. And not only attract, but they could retain that audience. So the crux of my work is De and I, and that's across everything. That's across branding, it's across attraction, it's across inclusive environments and cultures. How we change cultures from the stagnant places that they have been to new, evolved, inclusive places. How we can start talking about diversity. Like you said, Jonny, some people are just starting those conversations, other people are so far into those conversations. How we attract diverse talent. Essentially, the crux of everything that we do at Digitally Human is about how do we create a more inclusive, equal and equitable workforce for everyone. So that's what I do. That's the nutshell.

I love it. Salma, myself and yourself were doing our briefing before we went live and we had to stop because Niall, our producer, was flashing at us to go live because we could talk all day. So I want to give us a bit of a framework and a bit of a structure. So the first thing we want to do for the 50th time, let's go to the news, Niall. So, Sama, the news article I want to start off with comes from Fast Company. It was published a couple of weeks ago, 27th of April, to be precise, and it's entitled Guys is Not Gender Neutral. Let's Stop Using It Like It Is. I really enjoyed reading this article because I'm going to be honest with you, I've become increasingly uncomfortable in my usage of the term guys, and I will admit I still use the word guys and I want to stop using it. And this actually gave me some real good reasons to use it. It gave me some. Some. Some data to support my discomfort as I. As time goes by in using this term. I'd love to get your thoughts on this thing. It's a fascinating article. It's got some history, some context, some survey science in as well. Talk to me about guys and its usage today and your experience.

Yeah, so it's something that is so common, we've all used it. Even the most diverse and inclusive of us all have used it. We're all guilty of it because it's just part of our natural language. And as we become more aware of what diversity means to individuals and as we just become more inclusive in Our practices, in our work forces, in our family lives, whatever it might be, we then need to really think about the language that we use and how we communicate. And I love this article as well. Jonny and I loved reading about the etymology of the word guys and how it comes from Guy Fawkes. And then it was evolved to mean guys, as in someone who's bad because Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. And that's how it then came into natural language and was then used predominantly to mean a bad man. And now we use it just for groups of people. And also the fact that we don't have gendered pronouns in the English language in the same way that French or Arabic does. So it does make things a little bit harder. But what I loved about this article, and this is so true, and we don't stop to think about this because we're just so commonly using it every single day. But what I loved is, if you change guys for girls, does it work? Can I go up to a group of colleagues that are of all genders, non binary, and can I say, hey, girls, is everyone. All right, girls, let's all get ourselves into the conference room and get that board meeting started. It doesn't work. All of the people who identify as male, all the men in that group would turn around and go, why are you calling me a girl? But if you go to everyone and go, hi, guys, everyone, guys, let's get ourselves into that meeting room. No one blinks. And everyone goes, well, yeah, I guess. And it works. So we have to start interrogating, if it wouldn't work the other way, why are we doing it one way? Because it doesn't work both ways. So we need to actually stop that. So it's something. And I know, Johnny, I'm just going to preface this first. I know there's going to be people listening, watching, going, is this even a big deal? Like, this is just so minor. It's just the woke brigade or whatever they like to use to diminish equality. And of course, yes, in, in the grand scheme of things, if you were to say to me you can pick from either equal pay between genders or not using the term guys anymore in the workforce, which one do you choose? I. I'm going to take the equal pay. Right. Because this is structurally going to change a lot of women's lives. Yeah. So of course I'm going to take that. But that doesn't mean that just because it's a different kind of fight it's any less important because, like you said the data shows when people are in work environments in which they don't see themselves or they don't feel included, they therefore don't feel like they belong. Performance goes down, productivity goes down and it affects everything.

Yeah, it's, it's something that. I agree with you. The history. This is fantastic. It talks about the alternatives that different countries provide. You know, other countries listed, y' all being Southern us, West Indies, Albertas, Yuans, Yin's, use Ye. You lot. Hey, I didn't know that they listed Ireland. I was just like to see Ireland listed as a country that had, had had ownership of ye. Turns out it's us Newfoundland and Labrador, Canadian. That's it.

You know, I think the Irish equivalent is lads. We say it all the time. I say it's a group of my female for everyone in Ireland. Lads. You're right. Let's get, let's get going. Right?

You're so right. And you know, it's, it isn't good enough because the alternatives are really easy. You know, Proposes that instead of you guys you might use you all you two, you both you folks or any one of the ones I just listed like y' all use etc. Now, you know it says, you know it does go bit, bit extreme. Like I'm not comfortable with some of these. You know, instead of hello guys, substitute guys with okay people folks, team brilliant pals, peeps, party people. I'm like for me, I'm probably not going to go that far but there's so much choice. The point is, hey, there's 20 other alternatives you can come up with like in 30 seconds. So I like babe.

Babe works for everyone.

Oh, do you think. No, tell them a joke and Salma. No, no, no. Let's not go backwards with that, you know. Yeah. I think it might be good to point out the importance of language to perhaps a very, very manly man to call him babe and see what happens. Oh, you know what? In this modern day maybe he'll mistake your intentions. I won't see the, the humor or the irony in that. Slippery slope don't do is a slippery soap. So I agree with you. I think it's important. I think it isn't. It isn't the language police coming out and trying to stop you. It's kind of going. It isn't for everyone. It's an easy thing. Why do you use guys in the first place? It's. You don't even know why you use it. So why are you so protective of keeping it when there's tons of Other, other ways of saying it that won't offend people. Let me go to our second article because it expands on this topic and it comes from HRD Human Resources Director. And the article is entitled 5 Top Tips for Encouraging Inclusive Language in the workplace by Alison MacDonald. I love this is because it's got a beautiful acronym which makes it easy to remember. And this is the acronym of speak. And again, it's talking about microaggressions, is talking about, you know, the fact that there's a lot of uncertainty about what can be said or not. And it delves deeper into even phrases that we use in hiring or in HR that can be microaggressions. So talk to me about this article and the advice it gives and perhaps the bigger theme of some of these microaggressions or perhaps other ones that may not be so obvious that you've come across in your work sample.

I think it's a smart article because one of the biggest failings I find of the DE and I space is assuming that everyone knows what you know. And because we're all talking about inclusive language and we're all trying to be more inclusive in our language, we automatically assume that everyone around us is doing the same thing or everyone is really aware of what exclusive and what inclusive language is when the truth is they're not. So it's a smart article to say, look, here's five things that you can do to that will help you be more inclusive in your work environment. And one of the things that I loved was, you know, tell people that you are trying to be more inclusive so that actually the people around you can help you and can guide you on that. And it made me think of the same, the same kind of thing when someone goes, look, guys, I'm trying to stop smoking, guys. See there, look there we are using it in the podcast about the language. Guys, people say, trying to stop smoking, someone, do not let me have a cigarette today. Whatever happens, no matter how stressed I get, do not let me go out for a smoke. And people around will go, yeah, right, I'll keep an eye on it and I'll keep you strong. And why don't we do that with our diversity practices? Because that seems like such a good idea. So that if I say to you, Johnny, I'm trying to cut guys out of my language completely, when I just used it in that sentence, you would say, salma, I don't know, put a pound in the. In the guy's jar or, or whatever it is, or you would remind me of it, and that would really, really help. So I love that idea of just be open about it. If you're trying a new practice, if you're trying to be more inclusive, there's no shame in it. It's incredible that you're doing it. Let the people around, you know, so that they can help you.

We had it just before we broadcast. One of our producers, my colleagues, had said, okay, guys, to exit. This is a woman speaking to us. And I had to point out. Did you not read the notes where. I think that's really important, Sam, to go, listen, we're not standing here bashing you over the head with the, you know, as the diversity police. It's kind of going, listen, we all are trying to, you know, do something that's right. It's about progression and it's about, first of all, recognizing that these things should change, and it's not hard for us to change. But also, we're not there yet. We're not perfect. And that's okay. Hold yourself accountable, perhaps to somebody else, you will beat it out of yourself over time. But there's other good things I think that, you know, that's so important. That first point of the speak, S P E A K to say something if you hear something non inclusive. The second one really appealed to me because I've been very deliberately trying to do this, which is people first principle. So, for example, say a person with a disability rather than saying a disabled person. And a couple of years ago, when someone else said this to me, it really hit me that a lot of the language you use really stigmatizes the way that you structure a sentence. You know, it's defining the person by the thing as opposed to they are the person first who happens to have this other thing or, you know, whatever it might be. I think that's really important. And I don't see enough of that particular one, that second one, people first principle. Do you still do that yourself if you find yourself getting better at correcting that as well?

Yeah, and I think it's easier when you're writing something or you're writing emails or documents. It's always easier to correct it then because you do a natural edit. It's harder when you're just having casual conversations. And in the same vein as you, Joni, I've really been trying to do. I've been having a lot of conversations recently with people from that community who have a range of different disabilities and engaging with them about. Look at what makes you feel good when we talk about this. Subject, how would you like me to refer to? Because I know that it's not a subject area that I've delved into lots and that I've been super aware of. And so I'm really consciously like you, trying to change those, those terminologies. And it's encouraging when you see other companies and you see other people doing it, because then, and it's not the norm, it's not, it's not common practice right now. But when you do see it, it really gives you a sense of those people and their efforts and where they stand on their diversity efforts and their inclusion efforts. And that's that I think important. And it's also, and I always think when you're putting together strategies for DE and I or you're talking about inclusion, a people first approach is the way on everything in your language, when you're talking about people, in how you center people and their problems, in how you put people first in your strategies and your cultures. People first is always the way we should be approaching things. And as we're all sitting in the talent space where people are the commodity and the thing that we trade on and that we know best, it seems completely natural that we would be the people leading that people first strategy.

100%. That's what I'd love to. By the way, anyone listening live, watching live, I'd love to hear what your perhaps pet peeves are or phrases you've noticed that your colleagues use that you're trying to deliberately fix yourself or call others out on or just they annoy you because you, perhaps they represent you and you don't want them to represent you. But this people first thing, even down to, you know, someone who's blind or deaf, you know, it's kind of saying, you know, it's a person with a visual impairment or a person with an auditory issue or a problem, you know, not, you know, not defining them by the thing that you think they are. The blind person, the deaf person, it's, you know, the autistic person. It's not. You are a person first and then you happen to also have this other thing, you know, I think it's that you can, there is no extreme. You can take it to, you know, it's like try not to define the person. It does take a bit of work to develop those habits, but it's start by catching yourself. I think your point around asking others to help you do that as well. But you made the point and it's the third part of the SPE which is empathy, you know, we all make mistakes, be human. You know, you know, this isn't about, you know, trying to be 100% correct all the time. It's about the willingness to make an effort to change and being empathetic to others. To go. It's hard. You know, it's hard based on perhaps your generation, where you grew up, the people you surround yourself with, your experience in this, your exposure to this. We're not all at the same level. Before we went on air, we talked about this, how sometimes it can be frustrating. I know you shared, if you don't mind me saying, Salma, how you've worked for so much in this space and you spent so much of your time in this space. It's often frustrating for you to see others who don't come armed with the exact same information and knowledge as you. But we all have to have empathy to go, hang on a second. They're just in a different place in their journey. That's okay. I was there once, too.

Exactly. Because actually, what's the, what's the alternative? If anyone has a better alternative, I'm all ears. But what is the alternative if someone isn't talking about pronouns or putting their pronouns in email signatures, or if someone isn't using a people first approach or not using inclusive language? What's. Tell me what the alternative is. Is it having an argument or having a go at that person and go, well, I don't know why, why you're doing this, and you're an awful person for not. And then what? What is your result then? That person has their back against the wall, they're cowed into a corner and they hate you and they hate everything to do with the diversity that you are literally whipping them with. Right? And like you said, it's about banging people around the head. And I, and don't get me wrong, I am incredibly frustrated every day of my life doing this job. You don't work in diversity and just have a really calm, relaxing time. You are frustrated, you are annoyed, you're fighting, you're passionate, you're. All of the emotions bubble so close to the surface. And I think there's a lot of power in saying it out loud. I am sometimes incredibly frustrated by the people around me and that they are not on the same level that I am or that I am having to fight for really basic things that I think are basic, let alone the bigger things like equal pay and getting more people of color and marginalized backgrounds with protective characteristics into the workplace. But before I say anything that I will Regret. I always catch myself and say, selma, what's the alternative? Will they get there if you shout at them? Will they get there if you shame them? Because shame is debilitating and we cannot do anything with it. If we begin to shame the people around us for not being at the same point in the journey that we are. I still don't get what I want.

Yeah, I think that's why we. We wanted to talk about language today because it's often where it starts, because people can't engage with the language. They won't engage with the topic if they're afraid of speaking up in a conversation because they don't know what words I can use or can't use. You know, one or two of the articles mentioned, for example, the next next point in this one, ask, Never Assume. And you brought this up in an event we ran before Christmas on diversity and inclusion. We talked about, you know, you just ask the person, you know, don't assume. You know, you're sitting there going, do I say black person of color? What's right today? And your response, you know, was. Was fantastic. You're like, just ask the person. Because there isn't a rule for everybody. This is also something you got to get comfortable with that there isn't. Well, in this country, you say this like it depends on the person, doesn't it?

Absolutely. And we all have personal preferences. Some people want to be referred to as poc, which is people of color. Some people who are black don't want to be referred to as poc. They want to be identified as a black individual, as a black person. And then when you're talking about gender identities or you're talking about people from different sexual orientations, you know, every person who's gay doesn't identify as gay, and every lesbian isn't lesbian. Some are queer. You know, everyone has a personal preference, and we just cannot assume that everyone wants the same title. And there is no shame or blame or harm in asking the question. And again, this is another trick of where we're at with diversity right now is that we've all somehow fallen into the belief that to ask is to be uneducated and to ask is to be rude. And I don't know if it's something about our generation or when we were kids and our parents or grandparents. Don't ask that. You don't ask someone that. It's rude. Actually, no, you can ask. You can turn around to someone and say, how would you like to be identified? As what? Pronouns. How would you like me to talk about you. When I'm talking about race, what do you identify as? We can just ask that. It's not rude, it's not unprofessional. It's the best thing any of us could do.

It's pretty. In the interest of sharing. Niall Houston, our producer, just shared on LinkedIn. He finds it strange when he's referred to as a diabetic. What's acceptable seems to oddly vary depending on the condition. You know, again, it's, you know, everyone think, well, that's a. Oh, what's wrong? This person's a diabetic. My sister has someone with diabetes as well. But it's. Again, you don't be defined by the disease. You know, you are you first, and you happen to have this disease or you happen to have this, you know, impairment, if it's visual impairment or whatever it might be, that doesn't define you. And I think it's important. It's easily changed, but it does fundamentally change the way you think about somebody. And if you're not the person. I think we've spoken about this before. If you're not the person who has been categorized, it's too easy for you to go, oh, they need. They need to get over themselves. Like, for God's sake, that's just ridiculous that someone will get upset over that. It's like, well, you're not that person who has to hear the word every day used to refer to you. And to the point of microaggressions, it builds. If it was once ever, no problem. But when it's every day, and all of a sudden that's all you see yourself as defined by this thing that people keep calling you. That's a real, real challenge, you know, and that kind of brings us to the last point of the SPAAK acronym in this article. We'll move on. Which is know the space, which is. Take an active interest in it, I think, which is really good. Where do you recommend people should look to or follow or listen to? Try and know the space to keep up to date. What are some of the good sources you use?

Salma, There's. Oh, God, there's a thousand and one. And I always say, pick your medium that you're most comfortable with, because I could recommend 20 books about diversity, about different sexual orientations, about race. And if you're not someone who reads that much and you read two books a year, there is no point in me recommending you all of these books to read. So I would say the first thing that you have to do is figure out your most comfortable medium that is the best for you, because don't make this harder than it has to be for yourself. Make it as easy as possible for yourself. But I always find everyone is scrolling through social media, and social media, particularly Instagram, has some incredible educational, informative, brilliantly packaged bits of advice and information and conversations that are happening around De and I. So, for example, Rachel Cargill, which lots of people have heard of, I follow her, she's a professor over in America in Harvard, and she's incredible. And she packages up her information. She's part of the social media generation, right? So she packages it up in a way that we can consume really easily while we're. While we're scrolling. And I think if you litter your social media feeds, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's Instagram, Twitter, with people in the space who are big, talking about race, religion, faith, sexuality, whatever it is, litter your social media with those things because then it is in your eyeline every single day. It's not an active. I'm going to sit down and read a chapter of this book on race so I can learn about black communities. You know, it's something that is becoming ingrained in your consciousness because you're seeing it pop up on your. On your newsfeed over and over and over again. And you will then know as well when things happen in the black community that are of huge significance, you will then be part of those conversations because you will be seeing them pop up quite regularly. So I do like, yes, there's podcasts and there's Netflix, shows you can watch, and there's books and there's essays, and there's so much out there that's phenomenal, including online courses. But I would say for that, every day, building it into your life and your consciousness and your language, make sure your social media is littered with inclusive, diverse, different accounts. I've been learning so much about the trans community because I knew I didn't know enough. And so I went and actively followed loads of trans activists just so that I could start understanding what conversations are happening in the trans community, because I knew that I didn't know enough of it. So I would say do that. I think it's one of the best resources.

It's brilliant advice. I'm going to bring in some comments from some of the audience who are engaging with us today. Dave Sweeney saying there's comments denial, very true. He's type one himself and totally agrees with that issue of being called a diabetic rather than some with diabetes, Kathy Iverson, who's a regular listener to the show. Hi, Kathy. I don't think people have fear about breaking the racial dialogue rule. I think we need to learn to get past that, which isn't easy. And then Dave Sweeney following up again with that comment, saying a big issue here is people getting over defensive when they're called out for saying the wrong thing, rather than put wrong thing in air quotes, rather than accepting not air quotes. So in actual quotes, I'm putting them in air quotes anyway, rather than accepting a mistake was made and asking for help or advice on where they went wrong. I think, Dave, you've hit a really good point there, because I think if your attitude is to be just genuinely interested, you know, somebody says identify as whatever the next word out of their mouth is to go, that's really interesting. Tell me more about that. That, you know, you know, that, you know, just engage in a dialogue. If you have that attitude, you won't be defensive. You know, you're there as a learner. This growth, mindset attitude versus being, you know, feeling like, you know, you got it, you got it wrong and been called out. And don't get me wrong, some people will call you out in a way that is trying to berate you. It happens, right? Unfortunately. But it's how you react to that. You know, don't react to their perhaps negative reaction. Just, can I accept and go, that's interesting. Tell me more. It'll break down their defenses. My experience has always been that even if you get somebody who gets a bit snotty or ratty with you, you said the wrong thing or says something to you, you go, okay, well, that's really interesting. Tell me, what would you think is the right thing? What should I learn? Don't get defensive and start a fight over it. You got to engage in this dialogue, don't you?

Absolutely. But it's. And I appreciate that it's difficult because there's so many heightened emotions and one of the most powerful emotions is fear. And there is fear. There is fear on every side of the DEI in conversation, because there is fear from people who come from marginalized backgrounds that they're not going to be heard, that they're not going to be listened to, that this wave of DNI that we're currently elbow deep in as a result of the murder of George Floyd and the ensuing protests that happen globally, they're afraid that it's going to go away, that people are going to take their foot off the pedal, that it's all going to be a flash in the pan that we once spoke about. And then on the other side of that, people who don't come from those marginalized communities, they're afraid that things are going to change and they're not going to recognize the world that they live in. They're afraid that they're not going to have a job, that they're not going to have space. They're afraid that they're going to get it wrong, that they're going to offend someone. This is entrenched in fear. And it's not easy to say we'll just let it all go because we've been taught fear and we've been taught that we haven't always been safe, especially those people from marginalized communities. And so what I would say to people who are in these conversations, wanting to have these conversations, just tread gently. And by gently I mean you don't have to be the loudest voice. You don't have to be the one with all the answers. You don't have to be the one storming into the conversation and being the biggest advocate of De and I in your workplace because, you know, it's the right thing to do. Gently, gently, softly, softly. And we will all figure this out together.

I want to ask you, Sam, to maybe expand a little bit, if you will, on some of the other language barriers that exist in this topic. I know we've talked about gender pronouns, we've talked about language, about how you might refer to somebody as somebody with rather than somebody who is, and some of those other areas. But what else comes up from your experience? I know the articles mentioned some of the phrases like, you know, don't let, don't. One of the pieces of advice in one of the articles was don't reject people say they're not a good fit. Good fit can be seen as a really negative microaggression to certain individuals. What other things like that do you see are coming up? What else should we be paying attention to?

And you know what? Just speaking on that good fit, I think one of the most exclusive phrases that we use in business to this day is we hire for cultural fit or that that person wasn't the right cultural fit because what that actually says is that person doesn't look like, sound like come from the same background as everyone else in the office. So we can't really see how they would culturally get along. Right. And actually I want more people to say this person is not the cultural fit. But that's amazing because you need to diversify your Culture, right. You've got a workforce or an office full of, I don't know, Oxbridge graduates. If that person isn't a cultural fit, that's great, because that person's working class and they're coming in from a completely different background and culture. That's amazing. So whenever I hear that, when I'm. When I'm working with clients and I'm talking to them, they say, we just want to hire. Cultural Fit has to be right. And I always stop and interrogate that and peel that apart and I ask, what are you really saying here? Are you saying you want someone who comes from the same type of universities as everyone else in your. In your business really interrogate that? Because I think that's really damaging and I think that's the reason, because you'll remember, Jonny, when all we could do was hire for Cultural Fit and it was the buzzword and it was the thing that we all spoke about and we sat at conferences and talked about it, but actually how damaging that has been for the makeup and the DNA of the workforce today. So that's one of the biggest phrases when it comes to inclusive language that I am ready to throw in the bin.

I chip it on that one. Because I know, I've heard with several companies, something I find interesting is that that actually in an interview, have an area which gives bonus points for culture ad. So it's asking interviewers to look out for someone who could be a culture ad to the team, which gives them extra, extra weight that might counterbalance something else to go. They bring difference to the team that gives you extra points.

Absolutely. How are you going to add to this melting pot of incredible individuals from really different backgrounds that we have? Because when you. When you create a culture and a workforce like that, your business will flourish in ways that it Never will, having 70 Oxford graduates in that room. And that's research and that's data that's showing that that's not me with any biases. That's just looking at the data. I think one of the other things is, and we joked about this at the beginning, which is exactly what you highlighted really well, Johnny, which was the language that men use towards women most of the time. It can be so exclusive and it can be patronizing and demeaning and not because those men using that language are maliciously trying to be those things. But this is the same way that guys is ingrained in us. It's ingrained in. In a lot of men, especially older men, to call the women darling. Could you just get that for me or honey, did you manage the amount of times in business I have been called darling or honey or sweetie? And we met an hour ago in this meeting. Like, what gives you the right to say those things to me? And then you bring them up and. And suddenly you're the angry woman with the problem. You're the angry woman of color with the problem. Right. So a lot of the time I just go, yeah, God, no, it's not worth saying anything because those people don't. Don't mean bad. But actually, we're at a stage when we're talking about diversity. And so, yes, we do need to say something and we do need to call it out, because ultimately, and this is the most important thing that I always say when we're talking about inclusive language, especially when people go, oh, this is just taking it too far. Language informs behavior. How we speak informs how we treat people. And if you are constantly calling me darling and honey and sweetie, you are seeing me as something other than the man who is sitting next to me, my male colleague who is professional and capable, and you are seeing me as something else, as something informal, something casual, something unable to do their job. And you are affecting me in terms of how I can progress and how I am promoted throughout this company. So, yes, you're not doing it maliciously. Language informs our behavior. So I think when men are talking to women, how they talk to women is incredibly important in terms of the language that they use. But also. And this is. This goes down to little things. And also, do you step in and start having conversations with women in ways that you wouldn't if a man was doing that job? Do you. Do you offer extra help? Listen, if you need help, I'll say that if you wouldn't do that when you were speaking with a man, then you shouldn't do it when you're speaking with a woman. So those things are always really important to remember. And then I think there's a lot of inclusive language that we need to consider when we're talking around faith, which is something that I've experienced loads of as a Muslim. And I guess it's a little different because there's a hierarchy of faiths, I think. And I think what we can say about one faith, we can't always say about another. But in that hierarchy, Islam and Muslims are the dredges at the very bottom and the gutter, basically, which is to say you can say anything to Muslims and you can say what you want about Islam without reproach. And that's you know, part orchestrated by the media. There's, you know, loads of things. And it is one of the biggest microaggressions that I always used to get when I was working in corporate and I was in those spaces. And the language that people would use when they talk to me about my faith or they asked me questions was, was such othering language. It sent the message that summer, you're not one of us and you don't belong here. And you probably come from people who do bad things and to all kinds of people, you know, and it was so, so demeaning and damaging. And I always thought, should I start apologizing even though I've done nothing wrong? So I think we need to be really aware of, of our language. And even like Johnny, we, you know that conversation about atheism, right. And people who even don't believe that's Grant, that's absolutely fine if you don't. But I don't go to people who aren't Muslim. Well, listen, let me tell you why you absolutely should be. And I'm going to have this conversation with you. I'm going to point it out because it's stupid that you don't believe in Islam, but yeah, it's acceptable for atheists to use those, those terms and employ that language and have those conversations. Let it be. You have to be really mindful about people's faith and the language that you're using when you're talking about people's faith.

So, right. You have to be, you have to be more empathetic about that. You have to consider others and differences. And, you know, I don't. I shared with you before we went on air my atheism, but I'm fascinated by religion. I, I think it's wonderful. And because I have a different belief system doesn't undermine anybody else's belief system, but I do find it fascinating and I do get embarrassed by other more prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, who I don't, I find his research fantastic, but I find I do not identify myself as in the same group as him. He is not representative of how I want to the world to see people with that label, you know, whatsoever. But it is really important. We're all different. You're right about the piece about religions and that there is a, there is a, there is an order, right? There's an order of, of diversity issues that are acceptable to kind of, you know, be okay about. Then there's ones like in Ireland. We only talked about this in our old hands on Monday in The company in Ireland, whilst you might meet people who are really big into diversity, equity, and inclusion, then in Ireland, they'll talk about the traveling community, and they'll think it's perfectly okay to denigrate the traveling community in Ireland because that's the exception to all this stuff about being equal. There's them, you know, and it's kind of like, whoa, can you hear yourself? I've heard some people who are so passionate about women issues, about issues with. With different ethnicities, and then they'll go. And they'll have something. They go, yeah, but those people I don't like. And you're kind of going, you can't. It's equity. You don't get to choose different groups over others. Like, you have to be equitable. But our language, I want to bring it back to language. I read a very interesting piece last night that referred to the roots of the phrase sexual harassment. You're talking about babe and. And those words in the workplace. And we have people like Evie Srinivasa Raju. Good to hear Abby on the show again, saying he's glad that we were discussing about this. He absolutely hated words like baby and babe. I didn't realize that the term sexual harassment was coined in 1975 by an academic in the US and before that, there wasn't a phrase to. To. For women to use in the workplace. And it was largely women, 99% women in the workplace, who needed a phrase to capture this. This thing that went on, because it was just assumed you should just shut up and, you know, want to move on your career, just get on with these things. Even in the same article, they referenced a. An article that appeared in Cosmopolitan magazine by the editor, which talked about how women need to be, you know, do the right thing by the men in their workplace and stuff. And it's like, wow, this is the 1960s. This is insane. It's. It's within the generation of a lot of people who are still in the workplace today. But that when that phrase was coined, it gave something that, you know, people could say, I am. I'm. I am basically feeling this in the workplace. And I gave a label which then could be criminalized and people could be called to account for. And it just hit me. The power of giving something a name. I know we're talking about words used is amazing. Language is powerful. Language can give an identity to something that's bad that you can then say, that's the thing that's happening here that is wrong that we need to fix. Whereas in the Absence of having the language around it, it's just kind of, it's nothing because it doesn't have that concept. So, you know, there's other sides to where language can be just so powerful and so important. And I used to, I used to live in the Caribbean for a few years. We've talked about this. But I used to be a bit of, a, bit of, a, bit of a pernickety person around language in that a lot of, in the Caribbean, there's a lot of different dialects that essentially use English in different, different ways and to me, mispronounce words, incomplete sentences, I would consider poor spellings. And so in my mind, I would see people who don't speak the Queen's English as being lesser because they don't speak it well. And over my years, I've come to realize language is about communication, not a bunch of who owns the rules of what sentence. Oxford and Cambridge Dictionary. It's madness. If I can speak to you and you can understand me, I should just end it there. And you know, we can get obsessed with punctuation, the right use of a word. And I get you could teach people these things, but when you have multiple cultures working together and you come from a background where you could have an enormous, amazing IQ and be highly educated, that's using that just as one metric of, of intelligence. But you perhaps have a dialect that's different to somebody else. You know, you still have this issue where people will think less of you because your dialect suggests you don't have the same I am air quoting command of the English language. But that in itself is a way that we use to patronize people who don't have English as a first language who come from different ethnic backgrounds as well. And it's how language can be used by the oppressor to beat down others without them thinking about it. Without, you know, could you just think, well, that person's made us an error in their, their, the way that they formed a sentence. It's not an error. You understood them.

Yeah. And you're so bang on about the power of language. It has such enormous, enormous power. So when we, when we use words, they affect people and they hold, they hold a certain power over, over other people. But who are we to stand there and say, well, you haven't used that right word, so you are less than or you're not enough. And the most amazing thing about language that I adore, whenever we talk about language, the brilliant thing about it is that it is a living, breathing, moving thing. It is not Stagnant. It evolves with us. You know, back in the. In the day when Jane Austen was writing and Jane Austen published Pride and Prejudice, and it was entered into the literary canon, and we all lauded as this incredibly great work of English literature, you know, and that for us is greatness. I tell you now, if someone wrote a book in the style of Jane Austen's language and sent it to publication, it would not get published. It wouldn't pass the desk of the assistant of the assistant to the publisher. Right? It wouldn't. Because we no longer consider that as how we communicate or the most effective way we communicate, and we no longer consider that as good writing or good language. It was great in its time, and that's the beauty of it. We're changing this. We're altering it. We're modifying it so that it works for all of us. And as we come together in our cultures and as our workforce diversifies and we have this melting pot in our offices and in our businesses, we get to tweak the language. We as individuals, get to go, actually, that term doesn't work. It doesn't work when I say guys to everyone. So let's get rid of it. Let's take it out of our language here. That's the beauty of it. Like, we shouldn't see this as a. Oh, God. It's another thing that I can't say. Look, we could all sit around and say, everyone, what is the collective word we want to use when referring to a group of us here in this office? And we could all decide whatever word we like. And everyone could be like, this is amazing. We are inventing and creating and altering the language as we live and breathe.

And this is, I think, the biggest point to make. Language is constantly alive. It evolves. It is created by us, by social norms, by what's acceptable is constantly moving. We have moved on from the world of Jane Austen as the world of Salma Awardani. I'd love to see Jane Austen's Instagram. If she had it, I think. Probably wouldn't be that interesting. And, I mean, maybe it would. You know, I think you got to look at these things as an evolution, and you got to look at how they move on. And it's. It's time for a rewrite. Salma, we're at time. I can't believe we had time already. We're at that wonderful time on our 50th episode where I get to you to ask you for your one piece of advice, and you've already given a piece of Advice. Last time you were on, just to recap for everybody, you told our listeners and you were quickly addressing women, women, whatever you're asking for, add 20%. So I'm going to see what you have to follow that because it's great advice, really, really great advice and hopefully was listened to and if it wasn't listened to again by those who are listening today. So for the second time for 2021, what advice can you leave our listeners.

And our viewers today for 2021, a very specific year in our diversity conversations? My advice is this. Every time you are speaking, whether you're in a meeting, a classroom, a lecture hall, work, whatever, every time you're speaking, look around to see who isn't talking, who isn't speaking with you, who's excluded from that conversation. And it might be you're in a meeting and it's male dominated and you're speaking and there's only three women and you look around and you realize you're the one speaking and you realize the three women haven't really said that much, then stop and invite those people to speak. If you're in a, in a room and you're having a meeting and you're speaking and you realize that you're a white person speaking, look around for the people who are of colour. Get them into the conversation. You, if you are someone who doesn't come from the LGBTQ + community, are you inviting someone from that community to speak? Every time you're speaking, look at who isn't and invite those people to the table.

Salma, wise words. Thanks so much for joining us again. I know you have a, you know this is, this is a late show for you. I know you have a 5am start for your radio show at the weekends and listen, it's such a pleasure to have you. Always a fantastic voice. Keep fighting the good fight and doing amazing work. Sama and I hope we get to have you on again for the third time. Maybe later this year or early next year.

Absolutely. I'm game whenever you are and it's always an honor to be fighting alongside you all. So thank you for having me.

Salma. Thanks so many and thank you all for listening and watching today's show. Quick reminder, we have Social Talent live happening next week. So that is Thursday the Let me just check my dates. Thursday the 20 May, just in case this is a recording you're listening back to. It's a free event. You can register by going to socialtown.com live. Very simple. Social.com live and we'll be talking about onboarding, particularly onboarding in the virtual world we live in today. We've got some fantastic speakers joining us from the likes of IBM from Celonis, from Procore in the US and our very own Simon Hague from our own platform. Chatting with myself around what are the kind of core principles of onboarding from a leadership perspective that we need to be aware of. So do join us for that if you have time. It's gonna be a live event, social.com live. That's on May 20th at 4pm UK Irish time as well. So you can figure out your own time zone. But we'll be back on the shortlist next week for show 51 and we're gonna be talking about TA transformation in a remote world, from traditional to progressive. And we're joined by a good friend of mine, Michel Guiberge. And Michelle is the global head of TA and Employer Branding at icrc. Who are icrc? The International Committee of the Red Cross. Michel has a fascinating job. He leads a team of recruiters who have to basically go find doctors, logistics people, surgeons, all sorts of folks from all over the world to basically give up their probably great paying job right now and go typically to a war torn country and basically work on behalf of the icrc. And they have to find people who have certain language skills, have cultural backgrounds that are acceptable in the war zones that they're potentially going into. Their team is amazing and he's got fantastic stories of transformation in a remote world that they've learned in ICRC being a really global organization hiring global people. It's a fascinating story. He's a fascinating guest and a world end speaker in the area of TA as well. That's going to be on Wednesday 19th of May at 4pm UK Irish time as well. It's 11am on the east coast of the US and 8am on the west coast of the US so please do join us either next Wednesday or Thursday live. Let's make one of them or both of them or if not do check out the podcast as always on Spotify and Apple. Really hope you've enjoyed the show. Hope you are more comfortable on the language. And don't forget, no more guys. Bit more folks, bit more ye. Watch your language but don't be afraid to ask for help. We'll see you next week.