The common mistakes of first-time managers | with Karin Hurt & David Dye

Foreign. My name is Johnny Campbell. I'm your host for the shortlist and CEO and co founder of Social Talent. Today is episode 129 and we're following from last week's fantastic broadcast of pat Waters from UKG's interview about her priorities for 2023. And she talked about the focus on leadership that she's going to focus on this year in her business. A common thing theme amongst many people, leaders and leaders in general. This year is trying to get that leadership piece right. And that's why on the shortlist over the coming weeks we're going to be focusing on leadership and introducing several of our new authors who'll be coming on the Social Talent platform this year to train our users on leadership in general. But we're going to focus this week on the common mistakes of first time managers. It's often most difficult when you're becoming a manager for the first time and it's quite common to fall into bad habits in the early stage of your promotion. Maybe you are just relying on what you saw before or maybe the one manager you're trying to be influenced by. And maybe they're good, maybe they're not so good. Some of the common pitfalls you can fall into are people pleasing. Just trying to make everyone like you. Communication blunders again, trying to really, really communicate. But perhaps over communicating or under communicating or just struggling with conflict in general, these can be some of the common mistakes of first time managers. So today we've got a fantastic duo joining us today. Karen and David, a husband and wife team, founded let's grow leaders about 10 years ago after many years working as executives in corporate America. And they focus on providing practical tools like the really useful Stu for what we call human centered leadership development. And since the inception of let's Go leaders 10 years ago, Karen and David had helped grow over 10,000 leaders who no doubt have had impact on hundreds of thousands of individuals and organizations. And this is in 14 different countries. Between them they've written five books. They must not watch any Netflix or HBO. Bless them. And Karen hosts a popular LinkedIn show asking for a friend. I promise it's not for her. They're also very active in their philanthropic initiative Winning Wells, building clean water wells for the people of Cambodia. I noticed and I haven't had a chance to ask her yet that her most recent post on LinkedIn had her joining us from Tampa, Florida on a beach. It looked like a beach. I swear to God as I'm sitting here in February, in cold January, cold weather, here in Ireland. But Karen and David, it's really great to have you both in the show. I want to know a little bit about Tampa just to give us a sense of the warmth of that beach. But I want to know more about your business.

What.

Why both of you have such a passion for growing leaders as well.

So we took a moment to go to Tampa to do practice the tools and techniques that we work with our clients, with our own team. And so we were having a strategic planning session for 2023. And why do that in I.C. washington, D.C. when you can, when you have team members in Tampa, Florida?

100%. I totally agree. Any opportunity to go to the sun. We for our Christmas party this year, in December, we went to Barcelona and people are going, oh, we could have gone like to Paris or we could have gone to London. It's like it's cold. They're lovely cities, but it's cold in December. Why would you go somewhere cold this time of year?

Go hot. Go hot. Talk to your. Some of your team members after that, the day after they came back from that Barcelona trip and they were tired.

They should not do that. They should not do that. Well, I was wondering maybe, David, you might introduce yourself as well and talk to me about why leadership. So why get into this area of developing leaders? I know why I'm passionate about it. But why are you and Karen passionate about it?

Absolutely. Welcome. Thank you for having us. So when it comes to our own experience, over the decades that we had in our own roles doing leadership at various levels and finally at those executive levels, one of the observations was the great need for practical tools that leaders can use. And I was doing a in my executive roles, I was training leaders around the United States and started a blog to help them with those practical tools. And that grew into its own business. And Karen did a similar thing. But where's the passion come from? It's not easy work. Being a manager, being a leader is not easy. You're caught between these polarities of a need to achieve results and to build meaningful professional relationships. And people tend to lean one way or the other by natural inclination. And dealing with problems isn't easy in a way that's going to achieve both of those outcomes. And so it's really born from a passion and compassion to help leaders and managers acquire the tools that help them to achieve breakthrough, lasting results and feel good about their humanity in the process. And that's the genesis for me of our human centered leadership.

So too often, in my experience, folks are promoted to the position of leader or manager because they are being a great individual contributor. We know this challenge. Right. And then they're not provided with the formal training. It's not treated like a job with, you know, really good guidelines, rules. There's good things to do and bad things to do. Folks are too often just, you know, thrown in at the deep end. Is that both of your experience, you know, And I guess if it is, how much of a problem is it, like, how many folks, you know become leaders in a formal way? How many become leaders in a very, very informal way?

Yeah. So one of the things that has been the most surprising and interesting thing to me as we've been working at all levels of the business, so we have a lot of clients where we do very senior level, you know, CEO, COO level work all the way through, frontline, emerging leaders, people getting ready to move into management roles. And we have a foundational suite, six concepts. You can't leave without that we teach, no matter what level you're in. And you know, what is so fascinating is, you know, if you looked at this, you'd say, this is so foundational and we can talk about some of this. This is so foundational. Do you really need to teach that at the C level? And we will come back from doing a course and then we'll spend six months with people and we'll say, what did you get the most out of? Like, what's your biggest takeaway? Inevitably, it's one of the most foundational things that you would have hoped somebody would have been taught before they even stepped in to their first management role. So, you know, even. And some of these folks have had extensive leadership training. So I think. And it. And it's interesting because I also taught in an MBA program for a while, and in that curriculum, they actually called me and said, all right, here's the thing. We don't teach these foundations. Can you come do it in orientation? Because the curriculum doesn't even allow for that. So you have people emerging from MBA programs without the foundational communication skills that they need to be successful.

So one of the challenges you mentioned teaching an MBA class, and when I've talked to leaders in organizations who are perhaps the chief people Officer Chro. I talk to people in their careers who are leaders and done a long time. Often they say to me that, you know, there's a lot out there on the what of leadership. So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of understanding of that and appreciation of that, and folks might even actually Fully know exactly what makes a great leader. So things like, you know, you need to be empathetic, you need to have clear communication, you need to be able to make good decisions. And sometimes the programs that folks are taught, particularly, particularly in academia, are all about the what, and they walk away going, brilliant. I know exactly what a good leader looks like. How do I do that when it's 10am One of my employees just came in so angry, giving out about something we said yesterday that I miss miscommunicated. Perhaps I've got this conflict or issue to deal with or this change that we're doing in the business that I got to communicate to my team. And again, they're looking at the principles of leadership going, yep, I know what they are, but it's not helping me. How do you. How do you connect the what to the how in your experience over the last 10 years?

So, David, you want to go ahead.

I just would say that that is absolutely the foundation of everything we do is making. Making those. What's very practical with step by step. How's that? Anyone can walk out of a program and they're going to be able to do that with the programs that, that you're delivering with our content and be able to address those very specifically. Even that situation you just talked about with that person coming in angry, there's a course related to that in one of those programs. Karen.

Yeah, it was interesting. Someone a reviewer of one of our first books said, you know what I like is that I can be on a conference call having a conflict on the way into the office. I can park my car and. And then I could open your book and go to the chapter and say, step by step, what do I need to do when I walk in and deal with that situation? Because I think you've got to break it down. And I think that's part of the challenge is you want to translate. If I say, hey, I need you to have more focus on customer service, well, that. Okay, sure. Or I need you to have more empathy. Or I need you to develop your people. And that's often what people will say. And that feels like common sense. And you say, yes, I will. I'll develop my people. But what's more helpful is to say, here's how you have an effective one on one meeting. Start it like this, talk about this, ask these questions. And you know, it's not scripting, but it gives some scaffolding. And then people from there, once they get used to that, then they can make it their own.

I love that I was inspired recently by Russ Laraway's most recent book on leadership where he talked about the importance of having career conversations, which we all agree with. But he outlined literally what he recommends as the scaffolding for a 90 minute conversation and the direction to go, what you need to get out of it, the areas you need to tug into, sample questions you could use. And again, to your point, it's like you can read this going into a meeting, you know, live by it, reference it during the meetings, make sure you're on track, come away with a great result as opposed to this kind of high level, you know, generally have career conversations, invest in your people, which means nothing, right? It doesn't help, folks. So let's, let's circle back to those six principles and I'm keen to hear what they are before we go into the kind of challenges of a first time manager. Would one of you mind sharing them with me?

Yeah. So the. Well, let me. I'll start with the two foundational mindsets and that's about all the theory you'll get from us. And then David will go through the really the fourth other ones which are really practical. So it starts with what we call landing in the and so first one is show up with confidence and humility. So the confidence to have an audacious vision to set stretch goals, the confidence to stand up for what matters and the confidence to speak the truth, coupled with humility to surround yourself with people who will challenge you to know your vulnerabilities both as an individual and as an organization and. And to admit when you're wrong. So landing in the and of confidence and humility internally and getting your head centered there and then in every interaction and everything you're doing. How do I land in the and of results and relationships? Results. Setting clear expectations, building a cadence of accountability towards those expectations and relationships, getting to know the people you're working with as human beings and fostering collaboration up, down and sideways. Because we can't give you a tool and technique for every situation that you're going to encounter, but you can always choose how you show up. So if you're going to go into a difficult conflict. Pause. How do I show it? With confidence and humility in this circumstance, how do I focus on results and relationships? So those are the first two and then David, I'll give you the next four.

Yeah. And these next four are foundational and also related to some of the common frequent mistakes that leaders and managers can make. So the first one is what we call mind the MIT And MIT stands for most important thing. Because the reality is that anybody in any kind of management or leadership role, I don't think we've ever. Of the thousands, tens and tens of thousands that we've ever met, not one person ever said, oh, I've got too much time on my hands. Everybody is inundated and there's too many things to do. So knowing what matters most for your outcomes, for the organization, for your team, there's only so much time in a day and you only have so much energy. So how can you mind the most important thing? What it is that matters most? Up next is when all the next three are all about communication. So first is communicating consistently. And this is the idea that if something is critically important and you communicate at once, you might as well have not communicated because again, people are inundated with information. So we talk about consistent communication. How do we make that practical? Five by five, five times, five different ways. So if a message is critical to your team's success, how are you communicating at five different times, stretched out with some space between them and then through five different modes or channels? So say, you know, maybe we're discussing it on a call like this, and that's one. And then I follow up with an email and in a few days, and that's two. And then I'm doing a text thread and that's three. And then I record a video of myself with a reminder and then I have somebody from a different department or a senior executive pop into a meeting to go over it from their perspective and that's five. And then maybe, hey, we'll tack on a sixth one and I print T shirts or something fun like that. So different modes to do five by five. Communication five times, five different ways then is what we call check for understanding. And this is the idea that communication is a loop. And one of the frequent mistakes that not just first time managers, but leaders at every level make is to assume that communication has happened. So we have a fantastic meeting, great discussion, we agree on these three action items. I say, great. Any questions? Is everybody good? And everybody is silent. And so what most managers assume is that that silence means, I've got this, I understand it, I'm good to go. Well, the reality of course, is that silence could mean anything. But I don't like this idea. What was the idea? What are we talking about? No, I have grave reservations. This is never going to work. Or it could mean, I think I understand it whether I do or not and I'm good to go. Well, checking for Understanding is the solution for that. And you're simply asking, saying, all right, this is what we've talked about. These are our three action items. Fantastic. Before we go, let's do a quick check for understanding. What are our three action items coming out of this meeting? And the group tells back what they understand the action items to be. And now we've clarified and if they're not all on the same page, we can reiterate, clarify till we get there. And if they are, then we've removed the I don't know and the I wasn't clear. We've removed all of those problems and communication has happened. So check for understanding is about making the send match the receive.

And Simon, you would not believe how the check for understanding is the number one thing even at the C level because people assume they speak and they assume people have it. And so even at a very strategic level, Checking for understanding. Why do you think we're doing this strategy? Why is this initiative important? So you're checking about the why and you're checking about the what and you're checking about the specifics.

It is one of those habits that if you can build that skill as you enter, I mean really, it's a skill you can use, you can be an individual contributor and check for understanding in any conversation. So what I hear you saying is this, do I have that right? And now we're on the same page and we've communicated.

I need that in my marriage, right. Let alone my job as a leader. I forget that every day my marriage, I forget that with my kids. Universal applicability.

Yeah, it really does. And then the sixth one can also help in a variety of situations, but at work in particular, which is called schedule to finish. And this is the assumption that leaders make that good intentions, talent and a good conversation are going to get things done. And they don't. Not always. The antidote is what we call scheduling the finish. High urgency. People always assume that when we ask for something, we wanted it done yesterday and that people understand that. Process oriented people put it on a list and they get to it after they cross off everything above the list. So scheduling the finish is about having a conversation of when is done, when is finished. And it's a conversation and it looks something like, hey Johnny, can we schedule the finish on this? Would it be possible for you to get this to us by 5pm on Friday? And you say, yeah, I can do that. Or you say, gosh, I am loaded. I have so much going on, I don't know that I can do that, then we can negotiate and figure out are there other priorities to remove? Can we shift some things around? What needs to happen, bigger picture. And that conversation creates accountability. Because now it's on both of our calendars that this follow through is going to happen. So that getting the follow through as an appointment, not just an intention, changes the game and helps produce results for your team, minimizes conflict, reduces headaches. So those kinds of communication techniques, those are why these are so foundational for managers at every level. And if we can get those as first time leaders, makes everything else work more smoothly.

Karen, to take David's advice on one of those pieces of communication advice, can you give me a quick repetition of those six so we can begin to make sure it's important to our listeners.

100% and somebody chatted our article in so you can actually click on the link. Show with confidence and humility, focus on results and relationships. Mind the mit. Communicate consistently five times, five different ways. Check for understanding and schedule to finish.

Love it. Love it. So I'm remembering back to my first days as a manager, let's say in a professional context, 1999. If I'm aging myself here and I was promoted to a manager of the recruitment team I was looking after, I think I had five or six people reporting it to me. And for those of you who did work for me at that time, I am sorry. I was an awful manager. I remained an awful manager from well, more than a decade. But I remember hating the job as a first time manager six months in because I'd gone from being a top performer to sitting in meetings with six other people talking about their performance and KPIs and giving out to them for not. For not reaching those targets. That's what I did. I did it for years. I just did not like it. And I know it really turned me off leadership. That was my experience. But what have you seen as the common pitfalls of first time managers? The mistakes that most managers typically make when they get into leadership or management.

You know, one of the big ones related to what you're talking about there is focus. Communicating that and assuming that people understand what success looks like. So you know, hey, you need to get to 95, whatever it is, service level at 95, you know, 95% of your quota, whatever it is, and they sit in the one on ones and they pull out the results and they're like darn it, why are you not at 95? Instead of breaking it down and talking at a behavioral level about what success looks like so let's just take a simple example that everyone who's ever called a contact center can relate to. So, you know, you call the contact center and you really want to have the rep on the phone showing up with empathy, you know, showing up as an empathetic expert. So I am. So imagine I'm coaching this rep and say, I need you to have more empathy. I need you to show up with as expert. Okay, I will. Or I am empathetic. What are you talking about? So if you can break that down to what is the behavior that you're actually looking like and getting people to understand what that is, it's using the customer's name, it's asking strategic questions, it's repeating back what you're hearing, it's responding with regard. Oh, that must be really difficult. I'm so sorry you're experiencing that. And to give people actual behaviors, we have a story in our book, Courageous Cultures, chapter six, if anybody wants to read it. It's a case study from my time at Verizon leading a 2200 person sales team, where we were able to isolate one behavior that completely changed the trajectory of our sales. And it was simply when a customer entered our store, getting every single salesperson every single time to ask one question. Where do you work? Now? We learned that if you ask where they work 40, 40% of the time, it turned out that they or someone in their family owned a small business. And we had incredible small business plans. So instead of selling them one phone, if we could find out that they had a small business, we could put them on a small business plan and bring over 5 and 10 and 20 lines at a time. And that sales team won the President's award for customer growth. But I wasn't out in these stores saying, hey, everybody, just get your sales up. You need to get. Sell more lines. I would say that's not what the message at all. I. I was like, where did that customer work that you just talked with? And I was like a maniac about that. And it was. It's funny because this has been 15 years ago at this point. And the other day I was doing leadership training for a guy who, he's now VP at another company, used to work for me in that time. And one of his direct reports walked by the training. I pulled him in and I said, when you worked for me, this is 15 years ago, what's the most important thing? And he said, ask every customer where they work, right? So that's the kind of thing like, do people understand the behaviors that matter.

I love that. You know, I use the analogy of a coach from, from sports. And I'm not a big, big sports person particularly. But you look at, you know, someone who's going to teach you to be a good golfer, they're not going to just say, to your point, Karen, get out there and you know, you know, hit better and you know, sink those pots.

Come on.

And whatever other golf analogies you want to use, because I don't know many, because I do it once a year. They're looking, you know, the good coaches, they're looking at, you know, your swing and saying, just turn your hand a little bit there. You know, they're noticing the, the one or two behaviors that are probably going to be most impactful. Even though you might be doing 15 things wrong, it's saying, well, you know, one is I can't just say do better. Second of all, I can't give you 15 things you're doing wrong. You're going to be overwhelmed. But it's kind of honing in on the one or two things at a time and going, that's how you unlock this success, Johnny.

And what you said there is so critical too, because it leads to the. Another mistake that managers make is focusing on so many things. You know, I had a boss named Maureen who handed me a scorecard when I was just moved into working with her. 27 items on the scorecard. She hands it to me, day one of this new promotion I'm in. And she says, karen, which of these are you going to fail at? And I'm like, I'm not going to fail at any of these, Maureen. And she's like, you can't possibly do all these things equally well. So I want to make sure you and I are in sync about which one of these metrics really matter. And I think that is another thing that really good leaders do is they help people understand which of the behaviors and which of the results matter the most.

Let's talk about conflict. Both of you talk about sources of conflict a lot. And one of the observations I made about first time leaders is many of them are trying to make the team their friends. They go in there and try to say, I got to win this team over. They're going to like me. I'm going to buy donuts every Thursday morning. I'm going to basically try and help people get promotions, going to fight for increased salaries. And they often avoid the hard part of leadership, which often is managing conflict. What are those sources of conflict and how do you see first Time leaders typically deal with conflict and is that different to how they should be dealing with it?

Yeah, you know, let's talk about that transition into first time leadership. So the first time you become a leader, you are frequently leading friends or former peers or former colleagues, depending on the size of your organization. That's not uncommon. And so one of the challenges that happens, the pitfall, and it causes a lot of conflict in those new situations, is where that new manager assumes a couple of things. One, that their friends are going to be on board with their leadership and be respectful and go where the team needs to go and all those other things. Meanwhile, many of those friends have a different expectation. I had this happen in my career where they expect some leniency, that you're not going to be as tough as that last person was because we're friends. And now that's a recipe for conflict. So what do you do to address that? Well, one of the communication things that you can do right off the bat when you're in a new leadership role is have a conversation with your friends and former colleagues about the change in role and put it on the table, talk about it, that, hey, listen, my number one priority as the team leader has to be the team and the welfare of the team. And I value everybody's contribution and as a leader, to recognize that accountability sends a message. The message that good, effective accountability sends is that you value everyone's contribution. And you know this as an individual contributor. If you're sitting next to somebody and they're, you know, on social media all day while you're getting your work done and you get paid the same and the same accolades and the same recognition, that feels horrible. Your, your manager is basically telling you they don't value your work and so you don't want to allow that to happen on your team. So you set that groundwork from the beginning. Hey, listen, I value our friendship and I care about you as a friend and I'm also going to have to care about the team. And in this role, there are times I'm going to have to make that call. And then when in your conversations, to avoid further conflict, be clear which role you're playing. You know, right now I'm speaking as your team leader and I used to do this. I would actually like pretend to switch hats. Let me take that hat off and put on as your friend. Here's the situation, here's the deal. Let's get together after work and talk some more about the situation that's happening in your life as your manager. Here's what the team needs from you and here's what I can do to help you deal with this situation. And so to be clear about those things from the get go, that's one way to help manage some of those first time leader conflicts that you have. Leading friends and former peers.

I love that reminds me, I had a good friend of mine working for me in that first team in 1999 who I also lived with and shared a house with. And after a couple of years, he hated his job and wanted to leave. And you know, it got to a point where he broke down one day and told me that he'd been looking for a job. He wouldn't want to share it with me because I'm his boss. And you know, he was really upset. And again, we had to agree and it was a real breakthrough moment. Agreed to go, hang on a second. I can be both. I can be your boss and your family. Clear about when I'm being which as your friend, that's most important to me. I want to make sure you're happy in your job and your career. So I'll help you. Let's go find you a new job as your boss. Here's the formal way we need to do this process. And I took that learning into the rest of my career to go. You can be both. But let's be clear about when you're wearing that hat. I love that piece.

Perfect example.

Let me talk to you. Let me talk about something that you mentioned earlier, Karen. Courageous culture. So let's just take that and bring it down, break it down. What do you mean by courageous culture? How does that manifest itself? And what's the role of a leader? A leader in creating a courageous culture?

Yeah. Our favorite definition of culture in general comes from the marketing guru Seth Godin, who says culture is simply people like us do things like this. So in a courageous culture, people like us speak up. They share their ideas, they come to work every day looking for micro innovations, way to make things better. And in our research, so one of our books is called Courageous Cultures. And one of the things we found, we did some extensive research in partnership with the University of North Colorado on why people were holding back ideas. What was preventing them from speaking up? What kind of ideas were they holding back? And we found out that people were holding back ideas. Not trivial ones, not like Kombucha in the break room or virtual Taco Tuesdays, but ideas that would improve the customer experience, the employee experience, or productivity in a process and why they were holding them back. 49% said they're not regularly asked for their ideas. 50% said nothing's going to happen anyway, so why bother? 67% said, My manager operates around the notion of this is the way we've always done it. And the thing I was talking about from Tampa, credit stealing. People said, you know, hey, I'm not going to share an idea. This was the one of the biggest answers, because somebody's going to, I'm not going to get credit, which is a tragedy, right? If people have ideas that are going to make your business better and they're whole, withholding those ideas for any reason, you're. You're not going to have the results that you need get, and you're gonna have quiet quitting and disengagement. So, you know, what we have learned is it takes more than an open door. You have to actually go out and practically ask people for ideas and make it easy for them to contribute.

So what's a good way to make that systematic? How do you make that part of the culture? Again, let's break it, take it, take it from the what, I totally agree with the what down to the how do I do this? Give me some examples of how I scale it to make it consistent across what I do and perhaps what others do.

There's several real practical things you can do. So let's start by the fact that, as Karen shared In the research, 49% of folks said they're not regularly asked for their ideas. So as a leader, start asking now, how do we do that? Let's get practical. First, identify where do you need a good idea? What is a challenge your team is facing or a problem you need to solve or a goal you want to achieve. Figure out what matters most in terms of your growth and performance as a team. You don't have to have all the answers. As a leader, it's about asking good questions. And the kind of question you want to ask is what we call a courageous question. Courageous question has two parts. It's not just, hey folks, how can we be better? Two parts. First is it's specific. So you're going to target that specific area. Listen, right now we need to figure out a way to shave 15% of the time off of this process without sacrificing inequality. That specific. And then it's vulnerable. A courageous question is vulnerable because it assumes improvement as possible. And it, it's a recognition as a human being. I'm not coming to you with all the answers because I'm looking for your ideas. And so when I approach it that way. Now I'm asking something specific makes it much more likely that the person is going to be able to come up and share an idea than if I just ask a broad open ended question or wait with that metaphorical open door for somebody to walk through it.

Yeah. The other thing I would add there is 40% of the respondents said that they lack the confidence to share the idea. So one of the things that we have been doing in our courageous cultures leadership programs is equipping people with what we call the idea model. And so if you've got an idea to share you and you want it to be heard and you're nervous about sharing it, share it in this way. I why is this idea interesting? Meaning why is this idea strategically aligned? Because that's the kind that is going to get people to stop what they're doing, put down their phone and listen to you. D why is this idea doable that you've thought it through, that you could actually pull this thing off? E Is it engaging? Meaning who else might think this is a good idea? Have you stakeholdered it? Have you talked to anybody else? And a what are a couple of recommended actions? First, next steps. And so even if your manager doesn't accept your idea, if you come presenting it that way, you are showing up as someone who is articulate, who cares about the business and understands where you're strategically aligned. Right. And so you, you've got nothing to lose if you can share your idea in that way.

About three years ago, almost to the month, the world went a bit crazy. And as a result of that, we now live in a world where for most professional workers, you spend some of your time at home, some of your time in an office. We no longer have a consistent or even majority situation where you go to a workplace, that's where you work, you meet your boss, your boss sees you visibly all day long, you sit with your colleagues and you go home. How has leadership changed, if it has changed at all, post pandemic in a much more hybrid world, One way that.

Leadership changed for many leaders was that leaders became more vulnerable, more open. And it was the shift to that rapid shift and recognition that none of us have all the answers to this scenario. And now, as you said, people are at home in their camera. And so they've created for leaders who made the transition a humility, a vulnerability. It was a more human connection that erased some of the status things that had gotten the way of that. Now the question is, can we maintain that as people transition back to the new model that's existing as you were describing it. And so our hope and what we have seen in some cases is that leaders can make that transition and maintain that human connection with the other human beings on their team with the dignity and recognition that we are all on this journey as human beings. And so let's figure this out. I can't possibly have all the answers, but together we can and we'll figure it out.

And that's the positive side of what we're seeing happening. And then there's the thing that worries me deeply. And that as we were choosing our bubbles, right, who are we going to hang out with and who is safe? And then you go to the grocery store and everybody else is not safe except for the people that I chose to be in my little bubble. I worry about that. And I worry because that creates boundaries. And some of that loss of connection I think is lingering. And it is amazing to me. We have a lot of our business was thriving during the pandemic, which was a surprise to us because people needed leadership, human centered leadership development more than ever. But it was of course, all online. And what we're seeing now is that we're now going out and meeting with some of these same clients that we had been a year in live online programs. And now we're in, finally in person, in the room together and we're watching like, it's like this exhale. So, you know, I think that is the. My hope is that we now have this hybrid, right? You have amazing online training, which is robust and good and all the work that you're doing and that is good. And I imagine it was also incredible for you to be together in Barcelona. And so I think it's. How do you maximize both that now we've embraced the technology, we have this great training and how do you know when it's the occasions to bring your people together? What are the topics? There's a reason we flew to Tampa. And as I was in that meeting, I'm like, we're 20 minutes into the meeting, I'm like, this is so much better. The ideation is so much better. So I think that's that we need. My hope is that we won't get lazy and just say, well, it's just easier to have a zoom because sometimes coming together is the most important thing.

It's that intentionality that the pandemic gave us an opportunity as leaders to. To be intentional with how we're doing, everything we're doing. When are we going to use this Venue and why and when are we going to do in person and why and are we getting the most out of it? We don't want to waste that precious face to face time by, you know, not using it effectively or hybridizing it when it could be together. There's all of those. So let's be intentional about what we're doing.

I had a conversation last week with one of our leaders about, you know, being vulnerable and you know, that as a leader she needed to share what she didn't know and be open and not trying to prove that she's an expert in everything. Now when things come along, she had this fear she shared with me that sometimes she felt like a question was silly and she didn't want to ask in front of her peers. And I was like, I ask questions not, not to test people because I don't know the answer.

Right.

I learned more from that. So she asked a question I thought was brilliant. It's often asked. I'm keen to get your opinion because I haven't prepped either of you for this. What is the difference between a manager and a leader?

Sure. I'll start us off here. First, I'm going to say that I think effective managers and leaders work with both skill sets. But from a management perspective, you're talking about, you know, you manage tasks, you manage things. So it's the organization, the delivery, the number, all of those elements that get things done. Then from a leadership perspective, you're talking about leading people. So it's the inspiration, the vision of what is possible. At the heart of leadership is this belief that if we come together, we can create something that's better and bigger than any of us could do on our own. And so as you're tapping into the strengths of people and bringing them to the table and then getting the credibility with the organization, all those together can produce some really powerful results. So those are the differences in some of the definitional elements. I am always one to say, and let's bring those suckers together because we're going to be more effective when we do.

Yeah, yeah. And then just to know where your, where your real strengths are, you know, and to, and if, if I am more the vision, the idea person and I have always, throughout my career partnered, found that second person who can help me execute the things. And because I don't love the details of all of the operations, that's why David and I are like magic as a, as a couple, you know, and working together because he, he has, he, he is absolutely a leader. And he really digs the getting the operation stuff. And so that, you know, find people who will support you even if you're a supervisor, find who on your team has the thing that you don't, doesn't come as naturally to you and tap into that resource. Even if they are a direct report, if they're really good at ideas, if they're really good at vision, lean on them. Or if they're really good at operations, lean on them. And you're developing them and tapping into their strengths at the same time. Yeah.

And the other thing I'd say on that is as you're looking at the areas where, you know, let's say early in my career, I thought I had to be. This was another mistake that you can make early in your career. I thought to be a leader, I had to be like super inspirational. And what I saw was sports coaches giving those inspirational speeches and movies and things. That's not my personality. And when I would.

Has a lot to answer for.

Right. And it so. But I would try and it landed with a thud and people were looking at me like, what is your problem? That was not authentic for me. I could be inspiring, I could be connecting, but I had to do it in a way that was appropriate for my personality. And so whatever those aspects are, you'll find your way. So as visionary as Karen is, she's still very organized. She just does it very differently than I do it. And so it's, it's finding the way for you to capitalize on those different strengths and abilities.

I love that. Balancing the two, it's very much alignment my thoughts. I agree that there's different ways to lead. You can lead by example, as the phrase goes, by being just a really good hard worker who does amazing things, you. You might not be articulate and inspiring, and you might not present well, you don't need to be necessarily to be a great leader. People might follow you because they just unbelievably respect the work you do, the devotion you put into your work, and that's a way that they. They find inspiration from you. We have got through a lot and I'm so impressed. I've learned some stuff. I've really enjoyed the conversation. And we're at that moment in the podcast where going to ask both of you for one last piece of advice to leave our audience with today. And David, I'm going to start with you. And it can be a piece of advice that's been passed down to you from on high, from somebody you've met through your career or your personal life or perhaps it's just experience you've gathered, you've digested into something that works and you want to pass on to our audience. What would that piece of advice be from you, David?

All right, Johnny, I'm going to go with the latter, which is some of that digested wisdom that I'm instill in the process of learning and that is about vulnerability. So a number of times through our conversation today, we've talked about being vulnerable. But on the theme of first time managers, one of the challenges we have, as you mentioned earlier as an individual contributor, why are you promoted? Because you're an expert, you're good at what you do now you step into a management, a leadership role and if you're the expert all the time, you're not an effective leader. And so becoming okay, becoming comfortable with discomfort, becoming comfortable with not having all the answers and recognizing that it's more valuable sometimes to ask a good question and to be bringing people together and then helping them to step up and implement together. So that vulnerability and willingness to be uncomfortable I think is critical for leaders and it's a skill that we practice and develop.

I love that a great individual contributor may have all the answers. A great leader has all the questions.

Yeah, good question.

What's your take?

You know, so often people will be come to us and they're so frustrated with their boss. I have this bad boss. I wish my boss would do this. And I would say you can learn as much, possibly more from a bad boss than a good boss. If something is driving you crazy and you're watching it, have a negative impact or don't do that thing, do the exact opposite. And then I would leave you with this. Be the leader you want your boss to be.

I love that. I love that wisdom from both of you. Much appreciated. Thank you both for your time. Karen, where can folks find out more about your services and what you and David do and some of your research And I know you're hoping that our listeners, they might be even be able to help you with some of that new research you you're conducting.

Tell us more about that one. Yeah. Thank you so much. So let's GrowLeaders.com is our website so would love we have a blog, David has a podcast. I have my asking for a friend. Lots and lots of free practical tools and techniques content coming out there and we would love if your listeners would help us shape the future of workplace collaboration. And here's how you can help. In five minutes we have our world workplace Conflict and Collaboration Survey and if you could just go to this URL and it really will just take five minutes asking you for your experience and insight. And we're going to collect all that data and we have a new course that's we're in progress with you around Conflict and Collaboration and this will also help to inform that even more.

And that's World Workplace Conflict Survey for those who listen to podcast. That's worldworkplaceconflictsurvey.com Karen David, it's been such a pleasure. Can't wait to see your new content. I know it goes live I think over the next few months, over the summer. I can't wait to see it get watching it myself. As you said, it doesn't matter. We can always learn no matter how long we're doing leadership or management depending on your definition of it, there's no better time to go back. And as you say, the foundational elements are typically what stick with us the most no matter how progressed we are in a career. Thank you both for joining me. It's been such a pleasure. I can't wait to catch up with you both. You soon to hear more about the survey results and your insights into how to grow great leaders.

Johnny, it's been absolutely our pleasure. Thank you so much for having us.

Been a delight and thank you for listening. Really appreciate everyone tuning in this week. Hopefully that's giving you some inspiration to either take some of the great advice that Karen and David have shared with us or just look at the worst manager you know could be your manager today and just don't do what they do right. Try and learn from that. And lots of great comments coming in from folks saying I really enjoyed the session who were listening live and I've got great insights on that. So don't forget to record it because repetition is really important. Five different ways to say it in five different places. We'll be back next week with another live interview where I'll be joined by Debbie Dannon. Debbie Dannon is another expert on leadership. She's a coach and inclusion consultant with Rebel Leadership, her own business and she's been talking to me about boundary setting and the inner critic. I'm really intrigued to hear more from Debbie. I followed her stuff and she's fascinating, a really interesting expert. I'm dying to get stuck into boundary setting and the inner critic with her. If you want to join me live, you can do so on Wednesday 15th of February 23rd at 4pm UK Irish time 11am in New York 8am on the west coast on YouTube or my LinkedIn channel. Or you can catch the podcast when it drops on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts on Wednesday evening, Thursday morning. Until then, see you next week.