The positive impacts of employee leave | with Jen Henderson

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Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's episode 101. My name is Johnny Campbell. I'm your host of the Shortlist and the CEO and co founder of Social Talent. And you're very welcome. This is our weekly show where we talk all things talent with guests from all over the world. You want to know more about the show? You can find out more more by going to socialtown.com the shortlist, checking out our back catalog links to videos we broadcast live on LinkedIn and YouTube every Wednesday. And we're usually dropping your podcast app on a Wednesday evening. So haven't heard the podcast. Check it out. It's on Spotify, it's on Apple, it's everywhere you'll find podcasts. It's been a busy week coming up in the uk. We're in the uk. It's the Queen's Jubilee celebrations and June Bank Holy weekend. So you're off for the next two days. Enjoy. If anything, in the US You've had Memorial weekend and hopefully had a long weekend, a stretch, maybe taking some time off, because taking time off is pretty important. And that's what we're here to talk about this week, the positive impacts of employee leave. Never before has this work life balance conversation be more of a reality. We see it every day as we move beyond the specter of COVID because we kind of ignored it. That's how we got over it. It's clear that employees are still seeking to carve out careers that can balance harmoniously the personal needs they have and their family needs and their work needs. You know, work's an important pillar for, for all of us, some of it, for some of us, it's the most important thing. We love it, but it's only one facet of our lives. So it's really vital that organizations begin to recognize this and account for in their employee leave policies. And draconian measures will only serve to alienate potential talent and reduce our employee engagement. So joining us to discuss this is Jen Henderson. Jan is the founder and CEO of Tilt, a SaaS platform that focuses on leave management that you're going to hear tons more about. It's really exciting and we're going to be chatting with Jan about the importance of employee leave, its links to boosting wellness within organizations, while also looking at the tricky waters of parental leave. Jen, you're so welcome to the show. It's great to have you. I'm wondering if you could perhaps introduce yourself maybe better than I have and tell us a little bit about you, your history, what brought you to here today and why this topic?

Yeah, happy to. Thanks for having me, Johnny. Jen Henderson, based here in the beautiful state of Colorado in US with my family, my two kiddos, my husband, horses, dogs, the whole thing. I have found myself here in this state of time on a really interesting journey in that tilt was completely born out of a personal experience I'm sure a lot of your listeners who are founders themselves can relate to. I spent 15 years in corporate America, Fortune 500 companies and I loved it. I truly was your typical self described career woman. Promoted every two years, top of the nine box. And when I was really doubling down on my career, my husband and I were going through in vitro fertilization seven years. That lack of control and frustration accelerated my career because that thing I could control, right? And then we got lucky. We had one cycle that took and we got pregnant. And when I announced that I was expecting overnight, I stopped getting those invitations to the table and I stopped getting the stretch assignments and nothing had changed other than the fact that I was expecting. So it was devastating. But it was the first time that I really felt what was wrong with leave of absence in the workplace turned the other cheek, really got back on the horse because I was so elated to just be pregnant. And then five years later, a different company, a different stage of my career. This time when I announced I was expecting, I had a promotion taken off the table. And that for me was the straw that broke the camel's back for those here in the U.S. yes, very illegal. I did seek counsel, but you don't really hear what happens when that avenue is pursued in regards to signing away your story. And I wasn't willing to sign a release that I would never talk about what happened to me again for a payout in my term, it was short term gain, long term, nothing was going to change. And I think that was also exacerbated by the fact that my second child was a daughter and I couldn't stomach the possibility that she would experience what I experienced. So that was it. I have a very supporting partner and he supported me to take the leap into entrepreneurship and try to figure out what this is to bring a better way to do leave of absence in the workplace into the world. And we're five years old today and couldn't be more excited about the impact we're making with our customers.

Charmaine, who's listening on YouTube, took the words out of my mouth. She said wow. Wow is definitely one word. It's amazing. As a father of twins born through IVF I know what the heartache is like going through that and the. The joy when it. If it eventually works. And to have that sucker punch in the gut from an employer who you're meant to trust, who you believe has your back, must be the worst thing in the world. And Charmaine's followed up with congratulations. Yeah. Which is wonderful. I want to. It brings me to our first article I want to have a chat with you about from Fast Company, published by Ron Gura in the last few weeks and its position. Ron's position in this article is that to retain talent we need to support employees through their hardest times. I think that's probably what didn't happen to you twice. Right. You went through hard times and your employer was completely absent. In fact, quite the opposite. They backed away from that. And there's some really interesting stats in here I would love to explore with you. I'd love to get your opinion on this. Right. I hadn't come across this before, but the article says that in the U.S. anyway, when they looked at had women who worked in organizations with mandated paid maternity leave, they were 20% less likely to resign in the first year that the child is born. So this isn't just an opinion. There's really good data that backs this up. What are your thoughts on this? You know the great data that's this in this Fast Company article, its position which talks about how you know the biggest names in techs in tech are understanding that they need to shift to be more flexible to really focus on work life balance. You know, is this finally the beginning of the end for the kind of situation you were put in by your previous employers or what are your thoughts?

Absolutely. I think that we are in a new era and no longer can these types of employee experiences be ignored. I do want to share some of your past guests have noted from a context standpoint there's no silver bullet and the same remains with leave. There is no silver bullet or flip of the switch that will make this effective in an organization. But some really interesting nuances in relation to the article is leave of absence policies are now table stakes. They really pre Covid were looked at as ancillary or above and beyond benefits. Employers really got a gold star for having paid leave. That is no longer the case. If a company does not have paid leave. They are way far behind the rest of the talent pool and what people are looking for. But the other really large misconception that we run up against all the time is this almost mentality that it's a set it and forget it. We've checked the box, we've written the policy, maybe we've gone, you know, what we consider the bare minimum of 12 weeks paid time off. Maybe we've gone above and beyond that and done 16. We're good. We're in the top quartile of this benchmarking. It couldn't be further from the truth. Because, you know, Johnny, one of the things you and I talked about is we look to Europe quite a bit, actually, we look to the entire industrialized world because the US is the only country that hasn't passed K leave legislation. So let's be honest, everyone is doing it better than us. But what we see is that the pain still remains, because if you don't have the right leadership, if you don't have the right managers, if you don't have the right education around that policy and the implementation of it doesn't matter. The policy standing on itself is just a box that gets checked and the efficacy of it is for not.

The article brought up several things. One was again, another Pew survey that said nearly half respondents who voluntarily left their job in 2021. So they did so in part because of child care issues. I used to be a recruiter, Jen, and back in my recruiting days in Ireland, I was hiring accountants and one of my clients was rte. And RTE is the national broadcaster here in Ireland. Like they were the, the main. We call them BOG1 and BOG2 in terms of the two channels that most of us grew up with as kids in Ireland and RTE in their head office, they had child care, they had a play school for staff and I tell you, it was so easy to hire for RT because they didn't pay better than anybody else, but they had child care on site that was free for employees. And, you know, that was, it was, it was weird. They seemed to get this really early and they got the point that they could hire the best talent out there in every department without paying more money by just having childcare. That this thing was going to be really important, wasn't part of their mission statements. Maybe they did other things wrong, but they just seemed to get it. And I loved recruiting for RTE because I knew that as long as the person had a family plan to have a family, they were going to stay. And the retention of talent was amazing because nobody else offered that perk. And child care is a big bloody deal. Expensive, it's hard to get, it's a disruption for your family. One thing I hadn't ever considered that the article brought up was, was the challenge around bereavement and having bereavement policies. And I sat back on, we don't have one in social talent. We'll fully support anyone. But you know what? I hadn't thought about the amount of time according to the article, it, you know, takes just to administer and manage that. And then most people who've had a, a recent bereavement, you know, will. Will. Will say that their productivity falls because obviously, you know, this is a huge in your life. You know, how common is a bereavement policy? Because maternity and paternity policies, there's problems there. But I'd never thought about things like bereavement policies. What's your experience there?

We're absolutely seeing an explosion of diversification and leave policies. You see it titled as bereavement, compassionate leave and anything kind of of the like or adjacent. And what's really interesting about it is it's really not a cut and paste meaning. Typically you see bereavement specifically around three days. And then you start to get into the nitty gritty of well, who do we cover? If you've lost an immediate family member, what if they're not? By definition, families come in all shapes and sizes. And that becomes really hard when you get into the letter of the law, so to speak, around those policies. So there's a great trend in the world of people operation leaders who are really advocating for more flexible and personalized approaches to these leaves, recognizing that grief in particular is so unique to each individual for all the circumstances around it. So we strongly encourage our client companies to think about that and to not necessarily have it be only this, not that, and allow people to be humans and navigate that at their own speed.

How does a people operations specialist balance the need for equity? Because we demand equity across all the business, which typically gets interpreted as making sure we have standardized policies for everybody. How do you balance equity and standardization with that personal need to understand that everyone's circumstances potentially different.

Yeah, it's not an easy nut to crack because, you know, hats off to our people operations leaders out there that there is a letter of a law that is required or consistency, I should say is a better way to say with these policies, we tend to advocate for broader language, definitely more inclusive. A good example is anyone out there that's got paternity and maternity delineated in their parental leave policy, please make it one. All parents are parents and gender regardless. And those types of inclusivity just in the language really allows people, operations and leaders, direct line managers, to Apply those circumstantially and apply those as what those individuals need. Some people don't want all of the time. We had an individual take a parental leave here at Tilt and we offer four months and they didn't want all four months, they wanted to come back in fractional capacity and that's their road to walk and we support that. So again, that personalization element and keeping the policies broad enough to encompass all sorts of applications of that is our recommendation.

I shared with you before we went on air and I'll share again, Jan, that, you know, whilst US companies may look to the rest of the world, as you say, are particularly European companies for their standards, there's nuance to that. So for example, in Ireland, whilst you're entitled to six months paid leave and three extra months unpaid leave, that six months paid leave is not at the salary you're on, it's at what's equivalent to unemployment assistance, which is really hard to live on. You might go on, you may be the breadwinner in your family and you go on maternity leave and you're on, you know, 70 bucks a week or whatever it is there thereabouts from the government and that's what probably most companies in Ireland offer. They don't actually offer to make up your salary. It's completely optional from companies perspective. So again, sometimes you can have the illusion of having support, but I actually, the support structures don't back it up. There's also been inconsistencies in European legislation and particularly in Ireland on things like adoptive leave, where there wasn't any time like you can you have a newborn baby that you delivered six months, you didn't deliver the person back to work. It's like, hang on a second, this doesn't make any sense. This is, this is crazy. One of the solutions that I've heard employers rollout and it comes to our next article, which was posted by the BBC last month, was this idea of unlimited paid time off. So it kind of catch all going, you know what, we're going to remove the cap. We've done this in social talent a few years ago as well. There's no cap and you can use that for different things and therefore that solves all the problem. And the BBC article positions as the smoke and mirrors of unlimited paid time off. So a hint there. The article by Brian Lufkin is suggesting that this isn't as, as kind of clear cut and cool as you think it is. There's real challenges. What is your experience of that particular potential solution to this mess of time off, does it work? Can it work? Does it sometimes work? And if it does, when does it work? When does it not work?

Man? We've watched this phenomenon of unlimited or responsible time off ebb and flow here in the US for actually a couple years now. And what we've noticed is it is absolutely a fallacy in a lot of applications for a couple reasons. One is that it actually has been proven to result in people taking less time off. That's due to a host of reasons. One is that there's not the role modeling from a leadership perspective, demonstrating that it is actually okay to lean into this benefit and to take it as you need it. Another is there's a stigma around it. But as it relates to leave, we strongly encourage our companies, if you do have RTO or unlimited time, time off, really clearly delineate that that's not to be bolted on to a leave to extend that outside of what the policy is that you've written. Those are two very separate benefits and should be looked at that way. So really being clear and clear to understand those two differences. But we actually at tilt, we do have unlimited time off and again, we coin it responsible time off. And the way that we've seen that over the last few years come to fruition with our team is number one, we talk about it loudly. So there was a very specific example, which I'm reminded of often where we had a team town hall. Everyone in the company was on the call and I asked everyone to raise their hand if they took a vacation the prior quarter. And one person raised their hand and I got very upset. And I don't typically get upset, but this was one that I said, this is exactly the antithesis of why we did this. And there's all sorts of best practices top of the quarter. Let's all spend the first Monday putting our time in for the quarter. There's all sorts of best practices out there, but that is not the company that I'm creating and that is not a work life integration that I advocate. So it takes a lot of intentionality. It takes leaving loudly. We say that often at tilt and celebrating that and role modeling it. And I'm the first one to have to do that. So it's again, not a set it and forget it. And it's got to be culturally backed and it's got to be led from the top.

How do you role model that specifically? What are you doing to role model that? And maybe what can others learn from that?

Yeah, it's really simple. In that we communicate pretty much solely as an organization through Slack and we lean into status updates. If I'm off, I'm off and everybody knows it. I share what I did in my time off, I share what I've got planned with my leadership team for the coming quarter and I adapt. So for instance here in the US we had an absolutely catastrophic shooting on Tuesday of this week and I have two school age kids and I was not okay on Wednesday. I just wasn't. And I took the day off and I let everyone in my organization know that and encourage them to do the same if they needed it. And mental wellness days are very important to us and I needed it big time. That was a tough day. And that's just one example of many that we, we have to walk the talk.

You mentioned that as a general behavior we need to adopt more at this, at the top of the show that not just related to unlimited paid time off, but in every way. It's up to the leader to demonstrate that back to the culture of the organization is driven by the leader and the leaders of that organization and how they model that. So perhaps you can expand on the other types of behaviors in this kind of wider context of this increased need for flexibility. The BBC article points out that actually, you know, notwithstanding some of the research that suggests that unlimited paid time off can result in less time being taken off in certain circumstances, it also points out actually not the number one benefit that people are looking for. You know, if they had a choice, they drop that in favor of just general flexibility. So how does one. Well first of all, your thoughts on that flexibility, how you've seen it play out, what your thoughts are for the rest of the workforce and then how do you model broader flexibility as a leader in the business?

Yeah, well, not to over complicate an already complicated situation, but really we at our, at our foundation believe that the efficacy of leave and things like paid time off lie in the manager's hands. And one of the reasons that we came to market with a solution that not only supports the employee going through leave of absence, but their manager in tandem, not as an optional but a step by step or with this with your employee. You are in this with your employee. Because I never forget of my early R and D days for till I talked to a chief human resource officer here in the US and they said, you know what Jen, unless you hit the manager jackpot, it really doesn't matter what our leave policies say. It is up to that person that you report to as to how they implement that benefit that we have written as a human resource team and that just still to this day sticks in my craw in that, yeah, we have this wonderful technology that we feel is operationalizing how a leave of absence happens. But if you just have that manager who is low on EQ or potentially has a soundtrack of their experience as it relates to paid time off, unlimited time off leave, whatever that might be, it's really all for naught. So I really believe the foundation of all of these that we're talking about is that manager's ability to, to be effective and human. And that is a very hard nut to crack. I went through, As I mentioned, 15 years in corporate America and saw every shape, size and approach of leadership. And it was absolutely staggering to me to see a wonderful, healthy job that people were lit up and excited to do in 90 days. Toxic, below the line behavior because of a change of leadership. It's incredible how fast a manager can destroy a team or raise one up.

But tell me, when I think of, you know, the challenges around pay time off and leave and I think about software to fix it, I'm thinking, well, you know, I have software people book their time off and I approve it, it's done. What, what's. That's obviously not filling the need. There was obviously something lacking in that typical approach. So what is it that, that typical approach that a lot of businesses might have in their HR software, big or small, what's that not doing? What's not being fulfilled by that simple process of I know where to go to book it and count my days and someone can go and see and improve it. What else should there be?

What are we missing so much? And the hard part for people leaders is that it doesn't take a lot. There was, there are a lot of statistics that made me sit up straighter when I was first starting till and one of them is that it's actually been proven that an employee is seven times more, has a seven times heightened scrutiny of their organization when they're going through a life event, good or bad, so they hold them at a 7x level of intensity almost when how is that employer reacting to me right now, when I've lost someone, when I've become pregnant, whatever that might be, that life event. And that heightened level of scrutiny really does disproportionately impact the manager. And an example of that is it can be truly as benign as when an employee announces that they're expecting. If a manager says something along the lines of, well, are you coming back? And it is Truthfully, most of the time, benevolent discrimination. It is a genuine question of what should I plan for. How that can hit an expectant parent is oh my gosh, they think that I'm no longer committed, I'm not in the top of the 9 box, I'm not coming back, they're going to give my job away while I'm on leave. I mean, insert here all of those stories that start being told with one simple question that happens all the time.

How do you mitigate against that? How do you prevent that from happening though? Tell me how. You know, how does, how does having better software help me fix that? What's my manager experience that's going to prevent me from doing this?

Yes, our approach is the education around it. So leave of absence typically happens in a manager's life cycle, periodically in ad hoc. So it's not a muscle that is continued to be worked on throughout, throughout a journey as a people leader. When that event comes up, having that in the moment on the spot education to say, okay, legally, here's what you can and can't say, best practice, best in class. Here's some approaches that work and probably don't work. And having that digestible and easy to understand guardrails for the manager to ingest on their own. Because we've got those 15, 20 year tenured managers that have this, I've got it, I've done this too long and turns out they don't. So you can ingest it in private on your own time. Nobody needs to know what you're brushing up on. And leave has changed. Leave laws here in the US have changed demonstratively in the last decade. So it's always good to update yourself on that. So that's the simple answer. I think that there's a lot more nuances underneath that. But our approach and what we're coming to market doing is that educational component and role modeling and we'll continue to listen and learn as we grow.

Put yourself in the employee's shoes. What's missing for her or him? What are they not getting that from the existing software solutions in a typical organization?

Yes. So software here in the us the current state of actually leave of absence management is a 1, 800 number. It's a very cold process which software really can be at times and never the same person twice. A lot of click the box. Very transactional experience. That by and large is not a leave of absence. There is 99% of the time a human event happening while this interaction with the software is taking place. And we Say that we are bringing a human relationship through software. And as long as I am the founder and CEO of this company, I will not allow somebody to get into my software and click a box that says I lost a baby, now what do I do? It won't happen. So we will always have what we call our empathy warriors, our team of leave support managers that help people understand as an employee, what's available to me, what do I need to know, what are my responsibilities, what are some ways that I can navigate this to the best of my ability, what are some ancillary benefits? All of those things that you might need to support you through that life event. That's where the software comes alive. Everything. 90% of the leaves that are kind of copy paste. We know what you need to do from a paperwork standpoint. Here's some best in class recommendations to how to do this. Well, that can be automated, that, that can be put into logic. But those edge cases, those human cases will not happen through software.

By and large, you remind me. A good friend of mine I went to university with, was diagnosed with cancer in January. And you know, it's pretty, pretty aggressive and he is going through pretty severe chemo at the moment. He's nearly at the end of his treatment program and so far so good, really good signs. So we're really optimistic and hopeful for his outcomes. He works for a big US multinational, one of the biggest companies in the world based in the US and they have very flexible policies, they're really supportive, but they outsource that process to an external company who manage it and they are cold as ice to his wife about it and she said, listen, she goes like they were clear and that was appreciated. We always knew where we stood and what benefits we could draw down, what his income support, how long it would last, but it was cold. And at that time you gave an example there as well. That's that, that, that, you know, highlights how, how fragile people can be in these situations. You need that support. And I love that I haven't heard this before, Jen, where you'd have that kind of support. And you're right. Never make it a tick box button next for something like that. And we have Charmaine listening. This breaks my heart that some organizations are cold, but that's what happens. That's what, when you process the crap out of things, you lose the human sometimes. Isn't that unfortunately what happens?

Absolutely. And I think there is a reckoning though I will say that there's an awareness that coldness is just not going to sustain organizations anymore. And we're thrilled, we're thrilled about that reckoning. And again, it's just not, it's not that easy. So awareness, what is the first step? Accepting that you have a problem is the first step. And now we get to work on helping organizations improve in the way that they can. And we're here for it for the long haul because we have a lot of work to do.

We've talked about this topic from the perspective a lot, from the perspective of engaging your team, being empathetic towards your team. But what about as an attraction tool? Like, do you see organizations going out there to market to attract talent by saying, hey, we do it differently, we have a different approach, we treat you like a human, we've got this flexibility, We've thought about these things. Is that something you're beginning to see employers do, particularly in the employment market we're in in 2022?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Anything that recruiters and talent acquisition can do to get above the noise, to show differentiation in their benefits, to stack storytelling, we're seeing a tremendous amount of storytelling from current employees around how those benefits show up for them in their life. Referral programs I think are probably at an all time high to really lean on that crowdsourcing of talent. But as I mentioned at the top of the conversation, there's so much that have been moved from, I would say previously ancillary benefits to table stakes. And employers just don't have the option anymore to pick and choose some of those really fundamental benefits to be offering to employees. And employees will walk. Absolutely. They will lose on candidates and they will lose current employees if they don't keep up with the times in that regard.

We talk to a lot of recruiters and talent acquisition folk and be honest with you, many of them have zero engagement with the Comp and Benz team. There just seems to be this wall where neither talk. And there's this frustration because often the recruiters at the cold phase, they understand these challenges. They understand that the market is screaming out for this. They get that competitors are doing a better job. And Comp and Ben's team seem to live, according to the recruiters, in a completely different glass bubble, isolated from all this stuff and refuse to change stuff. What does great look like? Like, how often should a company be looking at its leave policies, its benefits? Who should you engage with to try and come up with the best package? You know, what is, you know, what does that good look like?

Yeah, it's a great question. Benchmarking is probably one of the top three Asks that we are requested from our clients and our prospective clients. How do we stack up? Right. How do we stack up against the rest? We encourage, depending on the size of the organization and some of the other constructions of a company, annual is bare minimum. Bare, bare minimum. I think with how fast the world is moving, we'd encourage a biannual, if not a quarterly checkup. How are we stacking up against the market? What is our talent acquisition team hearing out there in terms of what we're missing on and really having a tight feedback loop around that the leave policy itself, what really is a force function on that upkeep or maintenance is here in the US Is that we're seeing states pass a leave legislation fairly regularly. Ten have already implemented and made these programs live. Others are in the wings. So those state by state legislative passes are all of a sudden showing up in policies because they're all different, of course. Right. We have 10 different ways that a paid leave is handled through 10 different states in the US and that's very hard for CHROs and CPOs and their teams to navigate and stay up to date with. So that force function of legislation being passed really allows organizations to get in, make sure that they're still up to par, compare against that new legislation, and then again, wrap in what those talent acquisition individuals are seeing in the market and have that constant, almost nurturing and gardening of those policies and benefits.

Things have changed in the last two years in many ways. You mentioned before we went on air, Tilt's always been a fully distributed business. And hats off to you. We had Social talent are a virtual first business now. But it took Covid to make us realize this was the way for us. Like many other organizations in a world where a lot of businesses like ours are hiring in multiple states, multiple countries and regions around the world, they have completely different requirements. You might be going through eos to try and hire them. How do you or do you try and harmonize those benefits? And what does a good look like in that world where it isn't just about the multiple locations, you're one company, but actually you have genuinely staff in tons of different states, countries, markets.

It's incredibly complex. Incredibly. And those client companies that we support who do do business in multinational and multistate situations, It's a bear. And we really. Our philosophy is let technology do what it does best. And here in the U.S. one technology that we can point to is TurboTax. It takes a tremendous amount of disparate information around filing your taxes in the US and it Automates it in a technology. We see that the power of the rules engine or the rules logic very similarly in here in the US by state by state and multinational. What we also are strongly considering is there are cultural nuances to leave that. You can't automate all of that. So we're aware and working quickly to understand that's fine. We can have that in the technology, we can have all of that automated. But when the human relationship that we are built upon comes into play, how do we need to adapt that and how do we partner with our people, teams and in those countries of origin and states of origin to make sure that we're hitting the mark? Because that's not insignificant.

I love that, Jen. I'm very conscious of time. I know we started early today in our live broadcast. Today your diary is crazy busy. You've been on fire the last two years, growing like mad because the demand is out there. Employers are realizing this is a big issue. Tilt is blowing up because of that. And it's fantastic to hear. Jen, I want to make sure that we get the time to ask you the question that we ask of all of our guests, which is what advice can you give to our listeners here today? A bunch of folks from talent backgrounds, talent acquisition, HR backgrounds. What advice would you leave them with today? That's either being advice that's been passed on to you in your career or advice that you've developed yourself from your own experiences. What was that one thing you want our listeners to walk away from the show thinking of remembering?

Yeah. Given the audience that. That your listeners are comprised of, I think that there's a lot of influence that they wield at their organizations. And I would ask them to present safe to try experiments or beta tests or something that shows really, truly what we've been talking about today. It's better for business, it's better for families, it's better for humans. And this isn't an altruistic intention. This is a proven business strategy that benefits humans. And as I mentioned, 15 years in the operator's seat. I know PNLs, I know how money trickles to the bottom line. I get it. This is a business case. And it really, truly is something that if these listeners are at large orgs and the thought of bringing something to a CPO or CHRO is too much. Start small, start with those smaller teams and really propose things in that safe to try mentality. And I really think that the research that you can be armed with and the proof points will be demonstrative and something people can't ignore.

So Jen, if folks want to hear more about Tilt, where can they go? And then you know, who's Tilt for? What kind of types of organizations in what parts of the world, doing what? Maybe give us some insight in terms of who it's for and how can they Find out more about how Tilt can help their teams and their business.

You can find us on the web@hellotilt.com Lots of information there and we'd welcome any Contact us scenarios or demo requests. We currently right now are focusing on serving organizations around 500 to 1,000 employee count. That being said, we have representation across our portfolio smaller and much larger than that. So we are casting a broad net but recognizing our sweet spot today and growing more every day in terms of being able to support primarily larger organizations. We also do support international leads in Canada and the UK today and expanding that quickly as well. So we welcome any outreach of any shape and size, at least for us to be connected and we can keep you posted on on our new releases and broader functionality. But that's where we sit today.

And if you're listening to this in six months time or 2023, check back because I expect that's going to move fast. Jen, it's been such a pleasure to have you. Our audience have really appreciate your honesty, your insight, your candidness. It's a really important topic. You've opened my eyes and hopefully opened the eyes of many of our listeners and viewers to something that is super important and critical to how hiring great talent, retaining great talent, but most importantly being more human. Jen, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate appreciate you joining the show. We'd love to have you back again and we're looking forward to working with your organization to bring more of that great knowledge to our customers over the coming months.

Thanks for the conversation Johnny.

I appreciate it and thank you for listening today and joining us a little bit earlier. If you join us Live Artist, the podcast if you're going for your walk, your cycle, your run, sitting on your couch and that gave you food for thought. We're going to be back next week. I'm going to be broadcasting live from Barcelona where I be at the Saster Conference interviewing over the web Ranji d'. Souza. Ranji is the founder and MD of the Coal Yard and he has just a wealth of experience in the HR world. Ranji is someone I had the pleasure being introduced to earlier this year and he's worked with some of the biggest employment companies in the world ra running their global businesses. And he's learned so much about the world of work and particularly workplace technology and what's happening there. We're going to be talking about how do you build the future of work? So exciting topic. Someone who's really passionate about this, who's really playing in that workplace tech world. I'm going to be joining him from the Saster conference to that interview next Wednesday. That's the 8th of June. That's at 4pm UK Irish time. It's 11am the east coast of the United States, 8am on the west coast. You want to join us live, LinkedIn or YouTube? Or we'll drop into your podcast app on Wednesday evening and you can check us out there. Until then, take care.