The Shortlist with Melkeya McDuffie

Sam.

Oh, I have to say, I love the new graphics at the very beginning of the show. Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the shortlist. Johnny is on annual vacation, which means I get to take over. So. Hi, everybody. I'm Holly Fawcett from Social Talent. You're very welcome to the shortl. With me this week is the amazing Malkia McDuffie. Malkia, are you there?

I'm here. Good morning, hello, good afternoon, good morning.

Good afternoon, and good night. Malkia, can you introduce yourself for me, please, as I am dreadful at doing so.

Absolutely. I am Malkia McDuffie and I have been in the space of human resources for over 20 years. Most recently, I've spent the last seven years in the talent acquisition talent management space. Space. I'm also an author, a speaker, and I'm just delighted to be here. Holly, thank you for having me.

Not at all. So I think for this particular conversation, we really want to pillage the knowledge that you have around career advisory and the incredible work that you have done over the past nearly 20 years, I suppose in managing talent, in career coaching, and with, obviously with COVID and the remarkable amounts of job losses and fear that people have as well. Going back into the office. We have a couple of hot topics that we'd like to discuss over the course of today's episode. The first topic is this one from Business Insider and all if you want to bring up our quick graphic. That will never get old, that is only 4% of workers around the world say that they ever want to return to an office again. So I think, first of all, this is a bit of a clickbaity headline because actually when you delve into the story, it's that only 4% of workers around the world say they want to return to the office full time again. But it has been very interesting in seeing such a dramatic decline now for employees. What's your thoughts on the ground?

Yeah, you know, this number does not surprise me at all. I think what people are beginning to realize is that they are a far more productive from home than ever thought they would be. And I think employers are starting to realize that their employees are more productive from home. You know, in more traditional workforces, I think there was this reluctance for people to go home and work because there's this loss of control. You don't know whether or not people are being productive and whether they're spending more time relaxing and tending to their families because when they went home, their children also went home. We had to divide our time between being good employees, but also Being teachers and caretakers and all of the other things that came with shifting quickly to a remote environment. But we've adjusted and we've been able to be quite successful in this environment. And there's more of a work life integration that people are experiencing. And there's really no compelling reason that many people feel to go back into the workplace.

I can see, I mean certainly I personally also feel the same in terms of productivity. Right. That I now massively am productive at home and we figured out some way of remote communication. But my fear though is that when people leaders start returning to the office because there's a culture that they need to be seen that will then incentivize employees to want to stay close or be in a proximity to their people manager in order for them to be promoted or be recognized or be given those opportunities. So have you any advice for what individual contributors can do to kind of stay off that, but also what people leaders need to do as well to make sure they're. They're distributing opportunity as equally as possible?

Absolutely. I think that, you know, COVID 19 certainly fast tracked many companies into moving into a remote environment before they were prepared to do so. And I believe that this will become more of the norm post Covid. And that then signals that managers or people leaders need to have tools in place where they feel confident that they can engage and manage the performance of their team members. You know, there are more and more companies today that are hiring people in this climate and they're hiring them sight unseen. And they have to now onboard and ensure that these individuals are acclimated to their new environment all virtually. And so that requires that we have tools and processes in place so that team members continue to feel engaged.

I think that really so beautifully onto the next topic as well, which came from HR blog, which really looks at why attracting and making employees stay in the current climate is so important in this topsy turvy world. And like with the current social climate as it is, but also the current health climate as it is, how are we going to attract and encourage those employees to stay? What have you seen where you are with regards to talent attraction? Especially when it is that sight unseen of a new hire like that's terrifying for some people managers I know.

Yeah. So although, you know, many of the organizations that I've worked for and worked with have been relatively traditional, I'm not so much so that much of a traditionalist. And even still there's a certain hesitation that I've had with respect to hiring people sight unseen. It just is unnatural, but it's happening. And I've actually hired individuals in this climate sight unseen. And again, as long as there is that plan for proper onboarding and engagement, I think that that's fine. But there's other positives that come with this remote environment, and I think that it really widens the candidate pool because now you're no longer limited to candidates that are either in your geographic area, willing to relocate to your geographic area, or if you are in a busy metropolitan area, willing to even commute to where the office is. So now you've widened the candidate pool significantly and you can find the best fit for the needs that you have in your organization, irrespective of where those individuals are on the globe. Quite frankly, I can imagine that that.

Would also like this widening of the candidate pool, considering that there is a massive call in the world now. There has never been a bigger business case for social justice and social mobility as well. And a big blocker to social mobility was, well, they're not physically here. Can they afford to relocate to our city? Can they afford to pay $3,000 a month in rent for a shoebox under the cupboard? And all kinds of strange things in the Bay Area, but now that's. You could be in North Carolina, you could be in, you know, in Saskatchewan, in the. In the country. In Canada, you could be in Timbuktu, technically, if you wanted, if you were able to. To work the hours and had good WI fi. And now the. The salary that you could have earned in the Bay Area, albeit maybe slightly bit smaller because it wouldn't have such. Such deep living expenses, you now have the opportunity to work for a huge, amazing organization, right?

Absolutely. So it widens the options for the candidate themselves. As I mentioned, it significantly widens the candidate pool for the employer, but it also has diversity implications because now it gives you the opportunity to attract talent from anywhere and everywhere on the globe. And it just brings a different element of diversity to the organization. So, again, I have a tendency to always look for the positives, even in these times of crisis. There's a lot to be gained for the employer and for the employee or the candidate, for sure.

And so can you think of ways in which organizations can really pull themselves up when it comes to. We're starting to ramp up hiring again, let's say it'll be October by the time they do that. In order for a Christmas peak, Covid or no Covid. Right. Organizations have to continue to move. They're probably very reluctant to do so right now. What is their strategy then? Or what kinds of things should they be looking for based on this article around like social justice is important, having a political stance is important. Like should an organization even be political or should we stay completely out of it when that's what candidates are looking to hear from us so that they know that we're right as an organization for their values?

Absolutely. I mean there are so many things that are happening on our planet right now, particularly in the US that has just stirred up a lot of emotion. Covid being the first of which then with all of the attention now being paid to the police brutality and just the disparate treatment of black people in America and quite frankly other cultures in America. Companies are really, or candidates are really looking at companies now to see how they show up during these times. And I tell friends and colleagues of mine who are in the market that to pay really close attention to the messages that companies are conveying during this time because it really will give you great insight as to the character and the culture of that organization and it's the things that we do today in response to what's happening on our planet that will really sort of cement how we are regarded in the future.

I 100% agree, but I think sometimes as well, like I remember when I was job seeking when I was made redundant during the last recession. I think I applied for like I applied for a. Probably a. At least a dozen jobs a day. Right. That was my job. My job was to apply to other jobs. I did not look at the, to be fair now this was before Glassdoor, but I didn't look at the, the brand necessarily of the organization, what the employees were saying. I was like, oh, is that a company that I've heard of? Right. It was purely based on like actual brand name recognition because it was more consumer based companies that I was looking into at that time. Do job seekers today have that luxury? Right. Because they're under pressure to earn a living because their health care is tied to their employment. Everything else is tied to their employment, their rent etc especially in organ in countries or states specifically. They don't have a great social, social safety net. Are maybe employers back on the sort of. Aha. We have the upper hand again. We can do whatever we want or do. They still need to really show that actually we want to treat candidates the way we did back when it was a really candidate short market. Yeah.

So I think a savvy employer who is really serious about their commitment to creating a people first culture not going to change their tune because now they have the upper hand. And again, I would caution job seekers, and I understand that the objective is to gain employment so that you have income, so that you can put food on your table, Right? But ideally, what we want to do is have a career versus a job. And so when we're looking at what our next career move is going to be, I still maintain my position that you want to pay careful attention to the messages that are being conveyed by those employers. And there are things that you can do while you're trying to pin down that perfect next career opportunity for yourself. And I believe in giving guidance in small, digestible chunks that are easy sort of to retain. And I always say that There are the three Ps of career changing or looking for a new job. And it's really about positioning, process and perseverance. And when I talk about positioning, it's really about taking the time to do your due diligence and investigate the companies in which you have an interest and investigating the types of roles that they have and assessing whether or not you have the requisite skills for those roles and what it is you might need to do in the interim to go out and obtain those skills so that you are a better fit for where it is you ultimately want to be. And so that's the positioning piece, because at the end of the day, you want to be able to convey to your prospective employer where it is and how it is you might be able to add value to their organization. So the more you know about their positioning, the better you can position yourself. Then as it pertains to your process, you want to just ensure that you are leveraging your professional network. You know, all of us, I hope, are on LinkedIn, and we have pretty vast networks on LinkedIn. If you've never leveraged your network prior to now, now's the time to do it. Because it really doesn't benefit you to have 500 plus connections if you're not connecting with them. So you want to make sure you're doing that. You want to also make sure that you're leveraging all of your social media platforms so that they all kind of speak to your personal brand. And now's the time to really identify what do you want that personal brand to be, and is that reflected in every way that you engage or in every way that someone might engage with you on your social media platform. So ensuring that that consistency with respect to your personal brand is there. And then thirdly, we talked about perseverance. And so when you are making a career career change or you're looking for your next job because you were unexpectedly laid off, recognize that it is truly a marathon, it is not a sprint. And because I again recognize that the objective is to secure income so that you can put food on the table where you can. I would encourage people to freelance so that you are generating some income, keeping your anxieties at bay while really focusing on your bigger picture career plan. So, you know, those are the three tips. Again, it's positioning, it's process, it's perseverance.

I think that is so salient and succinct. But certainly the perseverance piece is so key, right? Especially because people do absolutely get disheartened when they don't hear back. And I mean, a lot of recruiters specifically, I know there's a lot of recruiters watching this because we generally talk about talent acquisition, but a lot of recruiters have been laid off in the past couple months as well, even as recently as yesterday with the announcements of LinkedIn. And that was dreadful to hear. But you've got like, we expect and we know the experience of recruiting. We understand the candidate experience is incredibly important. And yet now we're the candidates and we have an expectation of what kind of experience is. We're like, we really want to hear back. We want to receive notification that we're being dispositioned if we're not right rather than dispositioned at the very, very end when somebody's actually been hired. And I've heard nothing for three weeks or six weeks. So it's just this never ending slog of not hearing anything, of screaming into a black hole. So what kinds of. I know in your book in particular, right, you are the talent, you speak around the, the need for conscientiousness. And that's that skill of conscientiousness being critically important to one's professional success. How can you grow that skill in particular when it comes to the perseverance piece and the willpower and the strength to just keep going. If all you're getting back is nothing and no feedback, how do you keep yourself motivated?

Yeah, and so it really is about sort of mental discipline and knowing that you have some value to bring to an organization. And oftentimes it takes time for that match to be made. The match between the value, the skills and the talents that you have and the organization that is going to allow you to make the best use of those. And in order to find that perfect match. And that applies to every part of our lives, in order to find that perfect match, it Takes time and it takes work. What I would say for those that are on the side of the employer is there are things that you can do to sort of soften the pain for those that are in the job search currently. You know, that that may be a little bit different than how you may traditionally handle candidates. Now, there is not a time for us to be hyper focused on candidate experience. It is now. And we need to make sure that in every way that we engage with candidates or employees that it's done with a very high degree of empathy. I would say that, you know, employers need to make use of every virtual tool that they have at their disposal, make it very easy for candidates to engage with the company. Shorten the apply process where you can make sure that you are, if you're not in a position where you are able to hire today, that you are consistently communicating with candidates, perhaps through a CRM where you're pushing out information about the organization and keeping them warm and keeping them engaged. I would also say that this is a time to reevaluate the language in all of your candidate communications. So as a candidate applies, they would get an auto generated letter acknowledging receipt of their application, revisit the language in those communications, are they written with a degree of empathy? And if they're not, then this is the time to really go back and massage that language so that it is empathetic. Understanding the climate in which you know, which we are all, we are all in the other is, you know. To your point, Holly, when people apply for jobs and they're not hearing anything back and they feel as if they're in this black hole or they're yelling into this black hole looking for guidance or next steps. We all know as talent professionals that there's always a common set of questions or concerns that candidates have when they are in the process. And so I would also recommend that employers stand up a landing page and with candidate FAQs so that all candidates can be directed to a central repository to get greater insight on how long is the process typically, what are the steps in the process now that I've applied, what should I expect to happen next? So that there is some guidance being given, but it's manageable because there are far more candidates to today than we traditionally have to manage. And so we want to make sure that we have a way to personalize their experience as much as we reasonably can.

Yeah, I think the reasonable level of candidate experience is definitely key to put in considering the volume of applicants that tends to come in to open positions. When people are desperate. Have you any advice for the job seeker themselves around how many jobs they apply for, how much effort should they put into that application? And really what helps them to stand out from others that gives them that better chance? Like, is it quality versus quantity? Now, I obviously know the answer to that question, but I'd love you to give us some more insight around what kind of quality recruiters are really looking for.

Absolutely. So it absolutely is about quality. And it goes back to something that I just said a moment ago. When you are putting together your resume and you are revisiting your social media profiles, this is the time to really make sure that you are highlighting where you have added value in your former employment and where you are able to add value in your next employer. Because those are the things that are going to make you stand out above others. And the more you are familiar with the companies that you're targeting, the more specific you can be in terms of the things that you highlight as your selling points. You know, there's really nothing wrong with applying to a multitude of jobs, but I think a more strategic approach to that would be making contacts with those that are employed by the organization. You know, as recruiters we should all be skilled in doing a bit of research and understanding, you know, who the players are within an organization that are responsible for the hiring process and seeing if there's anyone in your network who knows those individuals or knows that individual and see if there's a way that a connection can be made that way. If there is no common connection there, then there's nothing wrong with reaching out to those individuals directly. Apply for the job, but still try to make personal contact with someone in the organization who either a plays a role in the hiring process directly or in is or is in a position to have some influence over a hiring decision or at least getting your resume and your contact information in front of the right person.

For sure. I think actually Remember seeing on LinkedIn yesterday was a screen grab of an email sent to. It wasn't somebody who would have been the hiring manager of that particular requisition, but somebody who was in that role already and therefore would have been a peer or a colleague. And this candidate had reached out to this individual, he was an engineer at Amazon that he was reaching out to and he basically was like, you know, I got your details because you're this person, you know, you're somebody who already works in this organization. I'm applying for these three individual roles. I really love. If you had 30 minutes time to go through what it's like to work there and what kinds of projects you're experiencing, particularly when it comes to this very, very specific technology. And because of the specificity of that email and the fact that he had pointed out exactly which three roles he was applying for with his resume, therefore it was a much more tailored kind of conversation. The individual employee was much more happy to go forward with putting, you know, actually linking up with this person for 30 minutes rather than very kind of, I wonder if you had time maybe we could talk through jobs at your company and making it very open ended and not quite committal so that relative specificity in that very strategic approach, like actually got this person to screen, grab the email on LinkedIn, post it on LinkedIn. It's been like this is how you do it everybody. I think really inspiring.

Yeah. That is an excellent example of how to leverage your social media access to people. And I think as recruiters we think about leveraging social media as a way to get access to the talent that we need to fill positions for the organizations that we support. But when the shoe is on the other foot and you're now the candidate who is seeking your next opportunity, you can use those platforms to your advantage in the very way that you just described.

Absolutely. And is there, I mean we also speaking of personal brand and everything else like what I love most in your book was the fact that you draw out that of course one needs to have intelligence, right? We need the skills, the skills and knowledge that we need to do the job. The iq, we need the eq. We need that ability to be able to interact with others, understand and have empathy for our customers, for our clients, for our co workers instead of work harmoniously. But also a style quotient as well that how we show up matters. Can you talk through what job seekers can take from an SQ perspective? I love this idea of SQ by the way. I think it is. But it's an unnoticed like we know that appearances matter but we don't like to pay attention to them for some silly reason. And it could be this one small little thing that's letting us down are these small little first impressions that we try and be blind to. But goodness we are. It is impossible to be blind to those things.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know it is unfortunate that appearances matter as much as they do and it's one of those things that it's tough to address because it's, it's an item that leaders are least likely to give feedback around because it can be a very sensitive topic. And I'VE experienced in my own career where I've had colleagues who have checked every box in terms of academia and experience and results, but were limited in how far they could go or the visibility that was given to to them solely based on their appearance. And no one ever gave them that feedback. And they spent a great deal of time being frustrated, trying to understand, if I've checked all of these boxes and you say that you value me as an employee, why is it that I'm not being given these opportunities? But when I talk about the fact that appearances matter, I want to be sure that I'm clear about not, you know, inferring that it means not being yourself. Because you absolutely have to remain true to yourself. And it is imperative that you are comfortable and authentic wherever it is you go and whatever it is you do. Because if you suppress who you are, then you will never have an opportunity to truly be your best. So it really requires you to understand the organizations that you are seeking to be a part of and their culture and making a real assessment around whether or not that culture aligns with your values and who you are. And are you able to show up in that environment in a way that's going to allow you to be comfortable on a day to day basis. And you know, going back to where we started at the top of this conversation, Hollywood, you know, the beauty of this remote workforce is that it allows for more of that, right? So you can be a bit more of yourself at home because the sort of standard is a bit lower when people are working in a remote at home environment. But you know, all of those things are equally important. You've got to know your stuff, you've got to stay abreast of trends and everything around us is ever evolving. And you want to ensure that your skills and your talents remain relevant. So making an investment in yourself is probably the most important thing that you can do. But you also want to make sure that you are not tone deaf to the things that are being said and done around you. Really taking time to understand the culture that you are either aspiring to be a part of or the culture that you're currently a part of. And constantly doing self checks to determine whether or not the way in which you show up is aligned to that culture and whether or not it is a matter of you making some necessary tweaks, maybe getting a coach or a mentor to help guide you, or making a bigger decision around whether or not that's the right place place for you. And then thirdly, as you mentioned, just making sure that you're showing up and you're dressing the part, whatever that part may be.

Yeah, I. I'm reluctant to constantly focus on appearance because beauty is. Is a very interesting privilege that we know don't really address. And there are, you know, some people are more naturally beautiful than others, you being one of them. I think there's definitely a moment where, you know, virtual backgrounds is great in zoom, and we don't. Fortunately, I can't have my wonderful virtual background on this. On this show, unfortunately, so I have my real one behind me. But, like, simple things like that, right. It's if I'm doing a virtual interview and I'm at home and I'm wearing, you know, lounge pants on the bottom and maybe a shirt on top. So, like, what. What is visible to the. To the person, you know, but the. The room that I'm facing the camera into, like, has a huge mess in the background and. Or just like, things just look really out of place. Like, again, like, those small first impressions, which shouldn't play a part in our hiring decision, but unfortunately do steer people's first impressions towards what this person's going to be like as an employee and their conscientiousness level, for example, and in how. And just generally how they show up is. Are they going to be a professional in our organization when that's who we're hiring? So, like, it is important, of course, for candidates to keep those things in mind. Right. I need to dress the part. And the beauty about dressing the part is that when you put on a suit or an outfit that you look great in, you feel a hundred times better about yourself, I think.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I will say one thing about, you know, preparing for. For whatever your next opportunity is as a candidate. We talked a lot about making sure that you understand the company culture that you are either pursuing or a part of. But I think as you're interviewing, it's also important to understand the individuals. And here's why I say that there was a candidate that this was some time ago that we were interviewing, and there were several people inside the organization that were part of a panel, and they all had very different perspectives on how this candidate showed up for the interview. And my perspective was the individual showed up in a very neat collared polo shirt, and I thought that was fine. Didn't pay attention to what he was wearing. I was more so focused on what it was he was sharing. Another colleague was offended that this candidate did not show up virtually. This was all done virtually, but did not show up in A shirt and.

Tie.

That colleague had a different expectation. And I would venture to guess that if as a candidate, if you started to do some due diligence on the individuals that you would be interviewing with, you would get a better sense of their level of formality. And then that should hopefully help to inform how you might want to show up in an interview for those individuals.

Is it okay to ask the recruiter that question? You know, if you're, if you're being prepared for the interview by the recruiter or the coordinator, is that an acceptable thing to ask? You know, what should I wear? What are the people expecting me to wear during this virtual interview? I like, you know, oh, we're a smart casual company. Wear whatever you like. You know, like. No, no, please give me actual guidance here. Is that possible to have. And I wonder, do recruiters do this?

Absolutely. And I would even suspect that in this instance, either the recruiter provided information without even being prompted by the candidate, or perhaps the candidate asked and certain that the response was, we are business casual. And if you wore a collared polo shirt, that would be fine. But I think that there is a follow up question that needs to be added to that, which is, but give me a bit more insight about the individuals that I'll be meeting with. You know, are they generally more formal? And then that will prompt the recruiter to really think more deeply about those individuals and provide better guidance around how that candidate might want to be prepared for those, those upcoming discussions.

That's. Yeah, that's a really, really good piece of advice. I think there's another question that I definitely wanted to address too was more really when it comes to making a career change during COVID Right. Because there is that reluctance to move during a pandemic. But if I'm really just not feeling it or if my skills are so in demand and I want to make that career move, where do I go? And what I loved about your book in particular was really about understanding where your purpose lies and to follow your purpose towards where it is that you should then fit. What's your advice around, first of all, even identifying what your purpose is, because that's not always the piece of language that individual contributors or people in the working world have outside of ta.

Yeah, it's an interesting discussion when you talk about your purpose, identifying what your purpose is, and then aligning your purpose to your career path. Because there are many people who spend a lifetime really not fully understanding what their purpose is. And to discover what it is really is not as esoteric as it sounds, it's not a difficult thing to accomplish. Pay attention to the things that you are naturally drawn to. And no matter what, good day, bad day, you're able to execute on those things flawlessly. And if you're still not able to uncover what that is by asking yourself those questions, then ask a series of people who know you well, like former leaders, colleagues, about the things that they feel that you do relatively well or exceptionally well, and you'll start to see that there's a common theme in that feedback, and that is likely where your purpose lies. It seems very sort of not realistic when you talk about, now that you've identified your purpose, go in pursuit of a career that allows you to make the best use of your purpose and your talent, but it really is very realistic to do that. And, and what I have found in my own personal career, and I found this with others that I've coached, is once there is truly alignment between your purpose, your skills, your natural talents, and the work that you do, there is really no limit to how far you can go, how successful you can be. Oftentimes we are in pursuit of careers that we know pay well. They are lucrative jobs or lucrative careers, or they're with companies that pay exceptionally well or have a reputation for doing so. But I can assure you that if you take the time to really understand your purpose, your passion and your gifts, and you find employment, whether that be an entrepreneurial endeavor or employment with a company that really enables you to make the most use of that, the revenue or the income will come and it will be far greater than you ever thought because you are doing what it is you've been purposed to do, and you can't go wrong with that.

Yeah, that's great. Can you tell me what your story was when it comes to finding your purpose? Like, you seem just so enthusiastic about coaching and giving that career guidance. How did you discover that that was your fit? Did lots of people just tell you or you always gave great advice, or what was it that you discovered?

Yeah, you know, I think that when I discovered my purpose, I wasn't quite conscious of the fact that I was discovering my purpose when I initially went to college. I went to college with plans to become a pediatric oncologist because I, you know, I love to help people. I was relatively young when I went to college, and so it sounded like the right thing to do. I mean, who doesn't want a child that is a doctor, right. So I went to school and first year as a biology major, I started to feel like this is probably not what I want to do. So I took a pause. I went into the army as a reservist and I went in as a medical specialist. And no regrets. It was a great experience. Experience. I got to meet some amazing people who otherwise our paths probably would not have crossed. But it was also a turning point for me where I realized that the medical field probably wasn't where I wanted to be. But I was still uncertain about what it was exactly I wanted to do. So when I came out of basic training and my advanced training, I secured a job, moved to Maryland. I'm originally from New York. I moved to Maryland and I got a job as a temp, as an admin assistant. And I did a lot of support work for the HR department. I was very young at this time, I was 20 years old and I didn't quite know what HR was, but I was very intrigued by someone in particular who was not much older than me and she was in the HR department. So I asked her if I could spend some time with her to better understand what this world of HR was and what it was she did exactly on a day to day basis. And the more I understood about the function and how it added value to the organization, the more interested I became. And what I later realized is that this desire that I have to really help to maximize the potential of people, processes, organizations could be realized through, through this world of hr. And that is where I spent the entirety of my career since then.

That's incredible. I didn't know that at all. That's amazing. And so like that particular individual who really showed you the ropes, have you paid that back in kind to others that have come through the door? I mean, I'm certain you have. Have you?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, interestingly so that individual and I to this day are very, very good friends. Friends. And there was another person in the organization who decided to give me my first HR job. So she hired me as a full time employee and she taught me how to recruit, she taught me how to train. And later on, once I started, my career started to take off and I found myself in a position where I was able to make hiring decisions and build my own team. I was able to bring that person on board and have her work as a consultant with me in my last organization. And so it all kind of came full circle. So it's been a great journey.

That sounds amazing. I mean like HR just really is this field where we get to make such an incredible difference to those people and to those companies. So I am so, so, so, so, so delighted that you're part of it. And for the incredible amount of advice you've given over the past 42 minutes, it has been amazing. I haven't seen a huge amount of questions come through. However, if you do have any more questions for Malkia, please do pop them in now because we should be wrapping up there in just a few minutes. Have you any closing words or any closing piece of advice that you'd like to give to the talent acquisition community? Please share our way.

Absolutely. I would say that, you know, fear, uncertainty and discomfort are our compasses, so don't run from those things. Run toward them, because nothing great is ever born from comfort zones. So get comfortable with being uncomfortable because that'll be the very thing to catapult you into what's next and what's best for you.

That is a wonderful piece of advice. Yes. The stretch zone indeed is where we should live. I've loved that. Thank you so much, Makia, again, for your remarkable insight and for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. It's been such a pleasure talking to you and a ton of amazing advice. I will leave it there for this amazing shortlist. Thank you so much and I'll see you next week on Wednesday at 4:00pm thanks, everybody. By.

Sa.