Trans inclusion and belonging in the TA space | with Joanne Lockwood

Sam. Welcome Everybody, to episode 72 of the Shortlist. I'm your host, Johnny Campbell, CEO and co founder of Social Talent. And you're very welcome to this week's episode where we're going to be talking about trans and inclusion and belonging in the TA space. So everyone deserves to be their authentic self at work and in life. God forbid I couldn't be my authentic self. But for many trans people, the fear of stigma and discrimination can lead to devastating consequences when it comes to looking for employment, job satisfaction and just general emotional well being. And despite a growing awareness of the struggles that trans individuals face, many employers are simply still ill equipped to make the changes and be educated on matters that would create a more inclusive and supportive workplace culture. But what can be done? Well, joining us today to discuss this important topic is my good friend Joanna Lockwood. And Joanne is an inclusion and belonging specialist and founder of C Change Happen, a consultancy she'll explain a little bit more about in a second. And looking through the lens of ta, Joanne will share with us tactical advice in creating a more inclusive employee lifecycle and also help you, our audience, hopefully, better understand the challenges that trans people face in the workplace and how you can best support them. Joe, welcome to the show. It's an absolute pleasure to have you. I can't believe we haven't had an episode together in the nearly two years that we've been running the shortlist. And it's just wonderful to have you here. Can you perhaps introduce yourself, give us a little background on the business you run and the work you do with organizations and people in this community.

Firstly, Jonny, thank you so much for inviting me on. It's been an absolute pleasure to be invited. And you're right, I don't know how we haven't had this happen before, but yeah, I guess, Covid, we've not bumped into each other at the various events. So, yeah, so as you said, my name is Joanne, Joanne Lockwood, and I describe myself as an inclusion and Belonging specialist. So I work with organizations. I describe the organizations I work with as people people. So that's talent acquisition, l&d, od, hr, d&I departments, helping create what I've coined as a ppe, a positive people experience either in their candidates in the accessible pipelines, creating open and fair opportunity, working with HR to look at policies and processes around diversity, inclusion, and of course, working with organisation development to look at how we can bring those processes across the entire organisation rather than just focusing on HR or candidates. So again, that ppe, that positive people experience no matter where you come in contact with the people. Because it's not just employees, it's not just customers, it's around the whole brand and the whole purpose of an organization.

And Joe, this is probably, you know, it's important to underscore that you work in the general inclusion space and work with organizations on more themes than perhaps just the trans community. But it is an area that we wanted to shine a spotlight on today because I get that most organizations are working hard to be much more inclusive these days and often they tend to focus on one or two areas. And we've brought this up on other shows. We've talked about perhaps the lack of focus that is put on disabilities and neurodiversity. And there are so many areas of difference that organizations and the people working those organizations are struggling to get their heads around these days in terms of, you know, you have to try and be aware of so many differences in the organization. I think it's important to highlight the fact that at its core you work on just being inclusive, which doesn't, it doesn't, it ignores all those differences. Because being inclusive, and correct me if I'm wrong, as you see, it is just about accepting all the differences that are in the workforce, in society. And the approaches to being inclusive don't really change much. You know, you're being inclusive towards someone from their gender, for their race, for their background, for their beliefs. It's, it's just being inclusive. It's a, it's, it's a, it's a way of thinking and working that is like, that transcends these different differences. Would that be fair?

I think at a very high level, I completely get what you're saying there. But I think when we talk about being inclusive, it's about being person centric, understanding what motivates, what challenges and individual. So to say that inclusion is the same for everybody misreads the situation. When we talk about providing equity, that's recognizing that different people from different backgrounds, different ethnicities face. Intersectionality kicks in. We have to recognize we need to be very person centric. So one size does not fit all. So being inclusive per se maybe doesn't fit that one size. So we've got to be really careful here. We don't just put in blanket policies believing we're inclusive without understanding the nuances and the needs of the individual. So yes, fundamentally it's about treating people fairly, treating people with respect, giving people opportunity, understanding the challenges they face for showing up. We talk about this when we talk about privilege. It's around, understanding their particular characteristic may have a disadvantage in terms of social acceptance, in terms of social capital, in terms of structural inclusion, and without beating up on the straight white guy. Straight white guy, top of the tree generally in the Western world in terms of privilege. And the further you are away from being straight, being white, being male, the further or the more challenges you have. And it's not, you know, as I often say to people, it's not about the challenges you've gone through, it's about the challenges you haven't had to go through as a man, as a white person. Me as a white person, I haven't ever faced racism in those terms. So when I show up, I have my own characteristic bite. But I'm never disadvantaged because of the color of my skin or my upbringing. I was never disadvantaged at school because of the colour of my skin. So it's those things I haven't had to go through. So it's really important when we're thinking about inclusion is to recognize the challenges of the individual. And that's why I think organizations maybe need to focus a little bit more of is thinking about the different. The different types of people. Yes, fundamentally we're all human beings, but we know in society privilege does exist and that. And I think we've also got to recognize that whatever we do in the workplace often mirrors society. So the challenges we have, maybe in the uk, in Ireland, in Western Europe, are different to the challenges we have maybe in Australia, Saudi Arabia, the Middle East, Southern Africa, whatever it may be. So recognizing there are nuances, if you're in a global organization looking at the D and I priorities globally is a challenge and you often have to look at it territorially. So bring it back to trans if you like. We look at how the LGBT community, the broader LGBT community, has variable protection under law in countries around the world. I think there's still 70 odd countries where being gay is criminalized. And a good proportion of countries also criminalize female to female lesbian behavior as well. So we've got to recognize that there are many territories in the world that still have these challenges. And I think a quarter of the world believe that being LGBTQ should be made unlawful. So it's a quarter of the world believe that. And there's a frightening statistics. We're in 2021 and I don't see fundamentally huge steps forward. You look at the previous administration in the United States, we look at how that administration was rolling back LGBTQ + rights, trans specifically, in more detail, we look at Poland, we look At Hungary, we look at what's going on in Ukraine, in Russia and other territories on the world. In the Middle east, we're not seeing any advances in LGBTQ + rights. And when we take out trans out of that, we look at trans as a separate entity. We're not going forward at all. In fact, in the uk, I would say we're going backwards. But we're struggling to hold the rope and hold our ground. At the moment. There's a huge upswell of pull against trans rights. And yes, we may argue that that is a very small minority of people, but that small minority of people are very well funded, very vocal, very loud, and seem to have the ear of politicians and the mainstream media. And that's really, really hard to push back against. And it's psychologically damaging for trans people and their allies to read this material, read this rhetoric and this, these challenges on a day by day basis. Because it is daily, it's not something you read here and there, it's an onslaught. And there are well organized organizations and I've spoken to editors of some of the key broadsheet papers and they've told me that they will print pro trans articles if I provide them because they're being bombarded with anti trans articles on a daily basis. But the pro trans articles, it's not news. Yeah, I get up in the morning, make my, make my, make my coffee, do a great day's work, come home at night, watch telly, go to bed, is not great news. But that's, that's the lived experience of many trans people. But they've, you can always find a negative story and that's what they're bombarding the mainstream media with. And that's the challenges we face. And this is not, this is, this is not niche media. This is the BBC, this is the Times, the Telegraph, the Guardian, the Observer, all the mainstream papers and organizations in the UK are all carrying similar stories. And that, that's, that's, and I'm just talking about the UK here. So we think about what's going on in Poland and Hungary and other territories. I believe in Ireland, it's not so bad. You know, from what I understand, trans Inclusion island, you've, you had your own modification to the Gender Recognition act, whatever it's called in Ireland, and people can change their gender markers without the complexity we have in the uk. There are some countries, I think Malta and Denmark, a few others in mainland Europe also have that rights. But for the majority of trans people around the world, it's a complex procedure. It's been pathologized, medicalized, requires psychiatric intervention. There's waiting lists and cues to be seen by medical people, which again is pushing it back onto trans people and impacting their mental health and psychological safety just to exist in society. And as I said at the beginning, workplace mirrors society. So what we're seeing going on in society will bleed into the workplace. And it may not be that everybody in the organization has a, has even has an opinion, but they will be aware of this undercurrent of anti trans rhetoric that's going on.

I think it's important to point that out. And Joe, thanks for doing so. Which is that until you understand someone's lived experience, you probably don't really understand their community, their background. And they don't all, you know, you say to somebody is black, somebody is white, somebody's male, somebody's female, someone's trans, someone's gay, someone's straight. It's not the same for everybody. Even within that, within that label that we are all different. And I'm so glad you came on the show today because I think a lot of folks out there just don't understand this community enough. They've maybe never talked to somebody from this community. They're reading the press, which as you say, is overwhelmingly negative because negative press sells. That's what gets promoted on Facebook. It's unfortunately the world that we seem to live in. And you're right, there are, there are better signs in some countries. It's worrying what's happening in Eastern Europe. I totally agree with you. It's just going so backwards. I thought 10 years ago that we were all making progress on these issues. I really felt that because maybe from my experience in Ireland, I felt Ireland was making progress as having grown up as a teenager where, you know, being gay was illegal in Ireland and could get you thrown into jail. It didn't change till I was maybe 16. So whilst it is better now, it's, it's still recent enough where there has been change has been recent enough. But to see it goes go backwards is dangerous. You mentioned the news. I want to bring up some news stories to explore a little more and less on the negative news stories, more on hopefully news stories that can shine light on the community and its struggles and the potential for doing good. So let's jump into our first one here, which is from Total Jobs. And this one is a kind of.