The Miseducation of Julie Zhuo

First of Kind Season 1 would not be possible without the support of our sponsors. Thank you to Cursor, Framer, Granola, Linear, and Perplexity. Maybe we should go through each of the interviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And talk about why they fit that mold of first of a kind. So Julie, first of a kind in so many different ways. You know, she and I grew up together at Facebook. I, she was one of our first design managers at Facebook. She built an illustrious career building one of the generational companies of Silicon Valley and segued that to building a company that's very much rooted in her own ethos, her own way of like approaching the world. And I love that she has consistently shown an ability to develop new capabilities as needed and that there's a constantly like a common frame around how she approaches design. She's just widening her impact in Aperture. And so there's something gorgeously systematic about it. And her, her approach entrepreneurship is, is a bit different than I think most folks, but I think is exemplary of what a— how a designer might take a, a past or a career of hers and translate that into a new business. Part of the things that I enjoy about talking with her is gut-checking on, like, did we experience the same thing? Like, do you remember this the way that I remember this? That was super fun. Yeah, because sometimes it feels like a fever dream given everything that's transpired ever since. And given that our shared experience at Facebook is now like almost 20 years removed.

I don't know if you read this piece that I wrote like last year, I think at this point, or maybe it was a year and a half ago about higher-level design.

Okay.

But I always relate that like everything I feel like I do is a design problem. Of some sort. And it's just there are different instantiations of how we design, whether it's designing processes or designing teams or designing ways people work together or designing repeatable systems. So, like, to me, they're all kind of the same motion. Exactly.

Yeah. And so with High Level Design, it was, it was the whole conceit that, like, okay, I'm starting to arrive now at a personal philosophy.

Yes.

I'm going to call it High Level Design.

Yes.

And here's how it's applying here and now as the leader of a new company and kind of both bringing a new product to market, but also bringing a new organization to life, like sort of congealing a culture in real time.

Or it's trying to connect what I feel like I was a student of and grew in the ladder of, which is like learning how to be a designer at a company and like step by step. Because initially, you know, when you're just starting out, You design a small thing like a task.

Yes.

Or a feature, right? And then you work your way up and now you design maybe an application and then you eventually design like a system.

Yeah.

And then when I became a manager, it was like, oh, well, it's not just the product anymore. It's how do you design a team or a group of people that actually can build the product or the feature in a high-quality way, in a sustainable way. And then getting into, wait a second, that's what culture is as well, right? So it's not just like the formation of the team and my coaching. But it's like, as I grew in the levels of management, then it was like, how do you design a culture? And then when I started Sundial was taking that to next level, which is like, how do I design a company that can build a product that can, taking all these lessons about like what it, what great culture means and what great processes mean so that it can sustainably create great products.

Right. You, you start this company, And you're coming at it with both, like, all of the conventional wisdom of starting a company, right? The YC speak, all the essays, all the YouTube clips. And then you also have the legacy of an incredible career at Facebook, right? Working at a generational company and being at the front row of, like, all these important shifts to mobile, to how software design should work at a growing organization, to hyperscaling. You're sort of, like, arriving with a set of cheat codes. All that prior knowledge, like, were there any parts of it that didn't really hold water in this new company, in this new context where you're building a remote workforce through a pandemic and going from consumer social to enterprise software as a service? How much of it, like, was useful in this new paradigm and how much of it was like, oh man, I'm really starting from scratch?

That's such a great question. I've asked myself this a lot. A lot of it is not applicable. It probably surprised me how much needed to be changed. And what I learned is that so much of what made Facebook great and how I learned to operate in that environment is very, very contextual to both the era that it grew up in, the type of product which you mentioned, consumer social, very, very different than later. My company Sundial is an enterprise product. And so Switching from social to enterprise, like I would try and take all of these lessons and these, I would say maybe biases from social and try to apply them to enterprise. And so many of them didn't work. Like it's just a totally different ballgame. So I had to almost like unlearn.

What stuff didn't work? What examples were like, oh man, like this definitely is not applicable here.

This is gonna sound really strange, but you know, when I was at Facebook, I thought I was extremely user-centered, right? I mean, as a designer, you're like, okay, our job is to be really, really user-centered. But really the way that we thought about user-centered is at scale. So that means if one person writes in and they're like, you know, I had this situation, I logged in and it didn't work, we would be like, okay, yeah, that's a bad experience for you, but you know, you're like 0.01%. So we've got other bigger fish to fry. I mean, obviously we wanted to do our best for everyone, but there was this kind of inherent like, well, you have to pick and choose. Pick your battles. When you're an enterprise company and you have a company that pays you money, like really substantive money, and then a couple people can't log in, that is a really big deal, right?

Yeah.

And you kind of have to go and figure out how to drop whatever you're doing and make that happen, right? Because also Facebook's a free product. And so I think because it's a free product, we were like, yes, we want to do the best job possible, but if certain people don't have like the absolute best experience, like You know, again, we will try and focus on impact. We'll focus on the things that work for the biggest number. And that just doesn't work if people from day one are paying you for something. Right. And paying you a substantial amount of money.

There's almost like a very different degree of accountability.

Yes.

Right? Yes. And where like you have to answer the phone in the middle of the night if that's what's required.

That's right.

Right.

And you have to figure out even like these edge cases, if they're affecting, you know, even a couple people and it's very serious for that company or that customer, it's got to be prioritized. And so that was one thing that— and so figuring out that balance, because obviously even in enterprise, like we're still building a product, we're a product company, we're not a services company, right? So I still think that there is that level of, okay, well, if you tell me I want to fix your problem and I can duct tape together a solution for you, but it doesn't make the product better, to what extent should I make that trade-off or that balance? Because we still want to build like a enduring sustainable product. The goal is that the product will take on more and more of things that humans otherwise would have to do manually, right? That's a lot of the, I think the ethos of what like a great enterprise company does. It's like, you know, you have a team of people, you guys don't wanna work on whatever it is, data pipelines or like repeated analysis or maybe customer service and answering the same questions over and over. How do you productize that so that there's something sustainable But these are real problems. And for these companies, like it's not okay if like, you know, let's say you were building an enterprise customer solution chatbot. And if like the chatbot doesn't work, somebody still has to be there to pick up the phone. It's like all part of their integration. It just matters at a very deep scale versus if you're building something for like billions of people that's free.

Yeah. I love that with your most recent essay, you credited Henry Modisett, who also had a chance to speak with here, actually. I love spending time with him because I feel as though there's a set of designers that are at the front lines of figuring out the new way to do things. And it's very much trial by fire. And I find it deeply relatable, but also selfishly, like a way to just learn easily the things that he's learning the hard way. He humors me because I think Sometimes the right anecdote at the right time, or being given permission to get crazier, or to be more ambitious, or to make a decision faster is often the thing you need to hear when you're kind of accountable for each decision or what happens next. I wanted to hear a little bit about how like your conversations with him informed that essay, and more importantly, kind of informed this new approach that you're thinking about not just for your company, but it sort of sounds like a rallying cry to the industry to say like, guys, we're no longer in the age of a cavalry. We're now in a new stage of competition. And so we have to accept new technology for marshaling resources towards making software and competing with startups and incumbents alike. Like how did this conversation with Henry like start off and what did you learn from him?

One of the things I'm always a student of, and I love learning this about pretty much every company I meet, is how does it work? You know, I think about companies as I think about people. Like there's a personality, there's an ethos, there's like a set of values or principles.

Yes.

And it's very dynamic, it's changing. And not to mention, it's all very, very unique. And, you know, even though we're quite familiar with this, I would say this way of working that was pioneered by companies like Facebook or Google, back in the day, which is like you have these pods and you have like a bunch of different roles. You're a product manager. I still remember, by the way, the first day I arrived at Facebook as an intern. Yeah. And PM was not yet a role.

Yeah.

And Ruchi Sanghvi was supposed to be my engineering mentor. And on the first day she was like, I can't be your mentor because I'm switching to a new function. It's called product manager. I don't exactly know what it is yet, but we need one. And so back in that era—

She's self-appointed. Yeah.

Back in that era, and I think maybe that came from Microsoft where they had like a— it's not exactly the way that product management is now understood, but they kind of have this like project management role or some sort of coordination role. Anyways, I say that because it wasn't that long ago that this was like an innovative thing, right? A new type of thing for companies and how we work. And I think with anything, thinking about Robert Persig, and he talks about like there's dynamic quality and static quality, like there's always like, What's the thing that's changing? What's at the forefront of change? And, you know, back then at Facebook, like I would say a lot of the stuff that we did was very, very new. I even think that the growth team, the concept of a growth team, the way that Facebook used data in order to get more insight into what people are doing, that was all pioneered there, right? It was kind of from first principles. This is what we need. These are the questions that We keep asking ourselves, let's like figure out a methodology. So there was like a lot of invention that's happening.

It wasn't like you were being marketed a tool that was off the shelf that would help you understand like cohort analysis and like, you know, the right numbers to be looking at and tracking.

Or even why, why should we do cohort analysis? Like what does it really answer? And it's because we were very obsessed with this question of like, okay, how do we keep growing? How do we know if we're growing healthily? Right? It really comes down to that question. As a social media company, there's very different mechanisms for growth. You know, you have virality of growth, network effects are really important. Mark, to his credit, really understood that super, super early, like the importance of getting people on quickly, right? So that's all very, very contextual to the company, the era, the type of problem. And so then it invents processes, it invents ways of working to suit the problem. And I think that's a lot of what I was so curious about with Perplexity or with all of these other companies because like the context has now changed. We have a very different technology. We're building very, very different types of experiences with very different UIs. The chat UI, I think, is one of the things I was going to write about next, but it's just like a very fundamental, very, very different paradigm than what we've been used to. Same with mobile, right? But each of these is kind of a shift. So it's like things are changing. And so whenever those things are changing, invention happens.

Right.

And so to your point, I was also so curious about, you know, what have they learned? So I always go back and I want to ask people like, hey, how do you guys think about product development? It's always like a very, very broad question. Like, what— how do you guys prioritize what to build is always another one of my favorite questions because I think that speaks a lot to what does a company value? And how does it consider, what does it consider value at all? Or, and what is it really trying to do? Like what's its mission even? And then I, you know, similar to that, how do you prioritize? It's like maybe how do you make decisions? Or maybe what I also like to ask is what surprised you? And so those were some of the questions that I had asked of Henry. It's like when you started working at Perplexity, what surprised you about, you know, 'cause he's worked at tons of other places, right?

So then, And so it's almost like he grew up of age in our era. Right. So we were sort of dealing with very similar experiences.

Yes.

And reality, this new reality brought like an entirely new context for all the companies. That's right. Existing and new. Right.

Yeah. And it relates to this data concept I love, which is like often, you know, and this is like getting into what we do at Sundial, but a lot of what we try to do is diagnose for people like what's going on. And in order to do that, you first have to ask a very fundamental question, which is what's changed? I find this idea of like talking about what's changed. Like if I think about where we were last year or the assumptions that a company had or I had or even Henry, you know, what was he doing a year or 2 years ago? And now how does he think now or how does the company operate now? Right. It's the change that's really, really interesting. Yeah. Because that speaks to both like what's going on with the world, the context, but also like than what have we invented, right, as a way of speaking to the change, right?

How are you routing knowledge to a remote workforce? One of the things that is, is pretty clear right now is that a lot of folks are returning to the Bay Area because there's a combination of FOMO, a lot of frenzy around AI. All the AI startups are here, and there's an argument to be made that just by rubbing elbows— oh yeah, by having conversations like this rather than over Zoom, you're at a greater advantage to be keeping up with the state of the art as it emerges. How are you sort of just managing the simple challenge of, well, I've got teammates who are several time zones away and don't have that luxury. How are you ensuring that they are keeping abreast of the state of the art?

Yeah, the good news is that the internet is there and the internet is like the forefront. Like there's just everything. I think about this a lot, which is like everything that we want to know probably exists out there. It probably exists on the internet. It's just a matter of finding it or Perhaps the bigger question is thinking to ask the question, right? That will lead us to what that answer is. And so those are the areas I think to focus on, which is like, you know, when we're all in the Bay Area, right? I see you for coffee, we rub elbows, we share what's going on. You just have more exposure to things. And I think exposure is a really important— like, amount of exposure to new ideas, to new things is one of the, let's say, input metrics to How much then can you learn? Can you change and can you adapt? So that's probably the first thing. And I think that's probably why I personally do think it makes a big difference to be in person and it makes a big difference to be in an environment where a lot of other people around you are thinking about similar things because you'll just get more exposure to ideas. So that matters. But I think it's not just exposure. I think there's also such a thing as like, how much can you internalize? And to me, and I've done a lot of experiments myself, I've done a lot of experiments with our team, it's not just sometimes about even like telling you, like let's say I have just the best and coolest insight and I can't wait to tell you and I tell you, there's a question of like, will you internalize it? Will it penetrate really deeply? And somehow be absorbed into your mental model of the world. And a lot of things, that go into that, right? First, it's like, well, did I do a good job explaining it? Of course. But there's also like, were you in the mood? Were you receptive to it? You know? And I find that the human brain is so fascinating in that we're so good at filtering. And so let's say that day you were really, really focused on a particular task and you're like, all I need to do is like, I don't know, you're working on an app. I just need to get the app out. And I see you and I tell you this great insight. Your mind may not be open at that moment in time You know, you heard it, but it didn't internalize because you, like, you had a more narrow frame because you were so focused on trying to get something done. And that, I think, is the story of our brain. Like, we're very, very good at focusing on what we need to focus on. But if I don't think I need to focus on it, I may not absorb the thing. Right. So like an aura of like open-mindedness, an aura of like being able to actually be relaxed enough or open enough, like, to be serendipitous, like, so you can really engage in that is a big part. So it's not even just like, hey guys, read this, I wrote it, I got an insight. That doesn't work. But I think there's another element too, which is the third element of learning is around almost like having to do it yourself. It's like learning by doing and making errors. So this happens to me a lot. Sometimes, like, you gave this example of like, okay, so I went into building a company and I'd read, of course, all the YC literature and all of the knowledge that's out there. There and everyone, you know, it gets to a point where almost like a lot of the advice can seem very cliché, like you've heard it so many times. And so one such cliché advice was like, you need to go talk to your customers. Like, it's just so important to talk to your customers. And I've literally preached this like as a design leader. I'm like, guys, we always got to talk to our customers. And so I go into building my company and I remember, you know, some months later, 6 months later, there was a point in time where I'm like, oh my God, I have not talked enough to our customers. You want a feast. Yeah, it's very humbling because I was like, the instantiation of that insight was like, we're really struggling to figure out if we should do A or do B, and they both seem like really good ideas. Why are we struggling so much? I'm like, we're struggling because we didn't talk enough to our customers and we don't have a good enough understanding of what their needs are. When I say that, even here, you're like, well, duh, that's so obvious. But it happens so often, which is like, we might know the lesson, we might even like repeat it, but we don't use it in our day-to-day. We don't often— we sometimes can't spot the opportunity to take a lesson and apply it to this particular context until there is, let's call it, an error or difficulty or a challenge of some sort. And then when we encounter that, we're like, oh my gosh, like, we could do that. And then the lesson penetrates a little more deeply.

Right. Yeah. And do you find that you have to also simultaneously remind yourself of that and your teammates?

Yes.

Is it like, how, how has your communication style evolved post-Facebook in this new context?

So a lot of it, I realize now even it's like very, this is another humbling lesson, like the limits of what I can say and how it will either penetrate or not. Right. And so I feel like I've, you know, I've done so much writing, I've done like, and so I've gotten to a point where I'm like, okay, first it was like, because I wasn't a very good communicator. Okay, let me like elevate that. So I got to the point where I'm like, okay, I think I'm a pretty good communicator, but why don't these things still go through? And I realized it's not just me, right? Communication is always a two-way street. Like, it also depends on the other person.

Right.

And so then what I started to think about was, okay, like, well, what helps the other person internalize a message? So the first is people don't really like being lectured to.

Yeah.

Right. Pretty obvious for us as the receiving end of lectures.

Yeah.

Stories. Are generally much more interesting or engaging. So if I can find a way to tell a story rather than give the fable or sorry, give the lesson, like I know what I— and this is hard for me because sometimes what I take away, what I remember for myself is the lesson, but what needs to be conveyed to the other person is usually the story and the narrative and the context. So that's one element. But the third thing I've started to experiment with quite more recently is like, actually be more like, it's more like Socratic method. If I think that, look, I know it would be great for this person to really internalize this lesson, but telling them isn't going to really work. Can I have them engage in a dialogue where they come to their conclusions?

They kind of reason their way towards the same realization.

Exactly, on their own, right? And so for example, one thing that really matters for us is like a culture of retrospectives. After each milestone, so maybe once a week, every 2 weeks or something, like get together with the other people who worked on it and just spend time reflecting, like what could have gone better? What went well? What could have gone better? What actions would we take differently next time based on that? And that is like a way for all of us to just think a little bit and—

To communicate externally or just like at least for the group, for each functional unit?

For the group, right? So I go back to like, I think, 80% of learning is like the group will internalize because they went through it. So therefore it's kind of there. But if they can somehow tie what happened into a narrative, then the narrative sticks because they're creating the narrative. Then of course they do share it and there's a little bit of that. But I actually think there's only maybe 20% additional learning with what you can do with people. It's just more that you can go through and at least, and I go back to like, you're going to make a mistake. That's fine. We all make mistakes, but let's try not to make the same mistake over and over again. And we can only do that if we really internalize the the lesson, which can come from retrospective. So that's one of the first things that we do. But the second is going, like, to your point, it's trying to help someone reason. So even through a conversation, you know, if let's say I really want somebody to learn the art of analysis, right? So how do we get better at being data analysts or designers or anything? There's like an art element to it. And if you tell people the process, you're not really helping them learn the art. You're giving them a template to get to the outcome a little bit quicker. But that isn't actually the art of the thing.

Is it almost like coloring by number?

Yes, exactly. Right. And so if you say, hey, I've got a process for, you know, let's take product development and you're like, here's how it's going to go. We're going to do this. We're going to do like, we're going to have a group, we're going to do a brainstorm. We're going to take the best vote on the idea. Then we're going to implement it. That's not really teaching people like, what is the art of how you think about getting to product development. It's almost better to sit a group of people down and say, hey, we're— you guys are going to design a way of building this product.

Yeah.

Okay. And here's what the success outcome would look like.

Yeah.

Why don't you guys figure out what is the right process?

Right.

And they'll come up with something. And let's say, like, they come up with something. And in my head I'm like, oh, like, I've tried that before. It's probably not going to work. I could say that, but I don't know that that actually teaches them as much. It's almost like if they go through it and they try it and then they realize it doesn't work for these reasons and then they retrospect on it, that is what is going to get them to really learn why that particular methodology isn't going to work.

Right.

So I just—

it's not just trial and error. I like this notion of like the retrospective. That's like talk about it because you and I saw the same thing happen, and at least we can maybe like mind meld on what we can improve upon rather than independently sort of just keep whacking at a particular approach or repeating the same process that's going to give you the same basic result.

Now what I can help if I see this happening, right? One way I can be helpful, and again, I used to basically like, no guys, that's not going to work, don't do this way, here, blah blah blah. Yes, okay, that could work, and and, you know, I could give a story, but it really isn't that convincing, right? At the end of the day, like, yeah, maybe that story makes sense, but people might be like, well, that's just one story in one context. How do you know it's not going to work in this context? And the reality is that story doesn't convey maybe the depth of, you know, all of the nuance that might be going on, right? But it isn't really convincing. It would be more convincing sometimes for me to stop and say, okay, well, you guys are I'm saying you're going to try this particular, but what if this thing happens?

Right.

You know, and that seems like it might be common. You know, what if you guys start on this path and you realize like this doesn't work, you know, like, and you would have wasted like 2 weeks, what then? And then usually someone will have an idea. I'm like, you know, what if we tried this idea earlier and then we'll know in like a day or 2 so that we don't, but then, you know, again, they are doing the thinking. To come up with the process and that helps them really realize like what is true. So that's one way to guide is like you propose hypothetical scenarios and of course you have to assess like how common is it? And you can say, look, in my experience, this does happen to come up a lot. What will you do then? But they're still designing the entire way. I think the second way—

Rather than you prescribing—

Exactly.

Here's a solution. Here's the solution. Here's what you should do.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. So it really is like it has to be created by, like, people learn so much more when they create the thing themselves and then, and then get a chance to reflect on whether they believe this is the best idea.

Has this approach shaped the way that you hire? Because I mean, like, Facebook had a methodology, a set of qualities. There was like a company culture.

Yes.

You can tell which kind of personalities would cohere.

Yes.

That culture and which ones might be more problematic or would be a work in progress.

Yes.

How much of that playbook even applies in this way of working? Like when you sort of think about the qualities that you look for in every incremental team member, in the leaders that you empower to manage groups, what are the qualities that can reinforce this approach to product development?

Yeah, I think a lot of it is that curiosity, that proactiveness. So by the way, I thought Facebook did a wonderful job hiring, and I think it's because they often look for these particular values, right? So like a value of caring about impact. So not, not, so for example, you know, if you get, if you say, here's the problem, people who are able to then be like, well, what's the outcome? Why does it matter? And ask those questions are the ones who you can tell that they're thinking, right? They're like evaluating. They're not just like, it's not like people who just want to pass a test. Like, here's the, You know, I mean, the challenge with education in a lot of places today, it's like it's so focused on like there's a right answer and did you get it?

Yeah.

And I think Facebook did this and, you know, that's one value that has really crossed over. Like, I feel like a lot of the values for what made someone great at Facebook, like it's very much within me. And that's like a lot of what I look for when I even hire at Sundial is a curiosity, somebody who's like not afraid to ask a bunch of questions because they really need to understand the context, people who are able to try a lot of ideas, but also be quick to discard them. So we used to have a saying of strong opinions loosely held. So strong opinions in the sense that, you know, you don't want to be wishy-washy, you want to have like a particular thesis, a hypothesis, and put them out there, right? And be like, look, this is what I believe, is what I think. But if, you know, you, somebody else comes in and says, hey, I have evidence that that this isn't going to work, like, okay, I'm willing to be wrong. Yeah, no problem. Right. So being able to try and look for that in an interview, it's really hard.

Yeah.

But, and you can also look for it like, do people, have they taken risks before? Have they done things on the side? Have they, can they speak to like a lot of trials and errors? Like, can they just, if you ask them like, hey, what did you learn recently and what were you wrong about? There's like a lot of things versus like they're really struggling because they can't remember like the last time they were wrong about something, you know, like look for signals like that, which shows that a person is going to be really open, is going to be proactive, is going to be able to be placed in a situation of great ambiguity and then think about it as like, this is a cool design problem.

I want to talk about taste because one of the things that stood out for me with your recent writing, I think you wrote something along the lines of— I'm going to butcher it, or maybe make it more artful— the discerning eye is faster than the capable hands. And that's why taste is paramount.

Your hand can never create better than what your eye can see.

At the speed of what, like, your eye can see.

Yes.

The discerning eye can spot. And I think the context there is, I think you're arguing about the importance of taste.

Yes.

From my vantage point, this sounds like something machines would be extraordinarily great at, at being a discerning eye of many different varieties and off-the-shelf discerning eye. This is ways in which you can kind of make things better. This is how it's not done right. I've instrumented this. This is how like this little adjustment will move the needle for this workflow, for this view, for this part of your strategy.

I kind of agree and disagree.

Okay, let's talk about that because I know there are a lot of people that are hemming and hawing about taste. A lot of folks in our field who feel as though this is like the last bastion of humanity. And I'm a little bit like, I don't know, guys. And so when you wrote that artful phrase, I was like, oh, wow. I feel like this is something that Julia has a particular perspective on that's worth hearing.

I do think about them as very distinct, like what you can see and what you discern to be good or high quality and what you're capable of making. So that's true individually. I often can see something as higher quality than what I can produce myself. But I think it's also true, maybe at a societal level, or where our civilization is, is maybe our ability to dream and see is always a little bit ahead of what we can create. So it goes back to people have written novels for a long time, people have great theories about governance, but it's harder for us to implement a lot of these things. And so there's always a little bit of that in that kind of lag time. Now, what I do think, where I agree with you on what you mentioned, like, I agree that AI can help us bring a lot of like what we create to the level of our taste. And so, and this is especially true if, you know, obviously, you know, let's say you have a group of 50 people, right? And you have like a person who's the most discerning about some topic. And it could be anything. It could be something as silly as like, We were talking about sneakers earlier. It's like, what are the best sneakers? You know, the most like cutting-edge avant-garde sneakers that we can think about, right? And there's like 50 other people who maybe vary in their understanding of like the context and the market of sneakers. And so I think because of the way AI works, like it's very, very good at getting like, if you're like, I don't know anything about sneakers then, and you're like, I have to pick some sneaker to wear. Tomorrow, like what's going to make me seem like a pretty fashionable person, then yes, I think AI can get you there because it can get you to at least the medium or even maybe slightly above, right? But—

Gets you to the top quartile.

Yeah, exactly. But I feel like there's always going to be, going back to dynamic quality, there's always like what's the frontier and who's pushing the frontier. And I don't think that's going to be AI.

So AI good at bringing you to the frontier faster, maybe snapping you to the horizon, but not extending the horizon per se. We need people to push the envelope. And even some of the areas where it's like, eh, that's definitely not going to work, right? Much the way fashion is often gesturing at things that actually nobody's going to— that's that kind of—

Now, if we think about it, it's because of the way that AI models are trained on all of the corpus of what humans know. And so the stuff that is pretty I wouldn't say it's widespread, but it's like it's been written about a lot. Like, you know, even research that's like, okay, we're— there's a lot of studies about it and there seems to be quite a lot of evidence. And I can be like, that's, that's what's going on. But if you're like the first person who's invented something and you're like, you got something, you know, you created something new. Like, let's just imagine we go back in time. You're Einstein. You came out with the theory of relativity.

Right.

And the way that at least LLM models work today, no one is gonna be like, yes, that's it, that's the thing now. You know, it's still gonna require a number of people to see that innovation and it to sort of propagate until everyone's like, oh my God, this is the most innovative thing. And at the point in which like people are like, this is the most innovative thing, then yes, the LLM that's trained on all the articles that's written will know that. But at the very, very frontier, I think, you know, there's that, I'm gonna butcher this quote now. Like, there's something that's like, it's very hard to sometimes tell at the very beginning what is like genius and what's madness. And it takes a little bit of time for us to take like what's in the frontier and realize that it's actually something that we all need to internalize and propagate and changes the way that we look at the world.

Right. I buy that idea that you kind of need society writ large to start to absorb madness for it to take hold. And then there's a question of whether or not the models can arrive at independent conclusions, conclusions independent of humans, people, like even like a small set of experts, right? And when that takes place, do we start to see a divergence on capability again, right? We see it the next step function in capability. People will often ask me like, do what, Do I regret leaving Facebook? And I always go, no, emphatic no, absolutely not. I felt like that was the right decision for me at that time. And in many respects, leaving opened up my mind to new ways of doing things, new problems. But along with that transition, I had to go through this like, um, trial by fire period of like second-guessing the things that I learned from Facebook. And what I found really heartening has been finding the parts that are kind of true in broader contexts, the things that are really load-bearing from that experience where it's like, actually, we were right about that. But then also finding which parts of that culture were a part of me, like they almost like just came out of my own mind and my own body. And I want to know like how much of that has happened to you leaving Facebook where you're like, wait, where does Facebook end and where does Julie start? And what do I still think is true about that context that will hold water in a broad set of contexts? But I'm gonna start to do things my way.

I reflected on, I have a similar feeling, which is like, and it was, you know, for me, even with Facebook, it was such a big part of my identity. I'm sure it was for, you know, us at that formative time. Yeah. I think I say that all the time. Like I grew up there. Pretty much everything I learned about product development, like, was sort of born from that particular context. So, so I'm very, very influenced by it. Like, I don't know what life would be like if I hadn't gone there. Surely I would believe a different set of things. And so a lot of them did get very, very deeply absorbed. And maybe you could say that, like, maybe you could say, like, you know, this gets into a little bit of, like, metaphysics, but, like, I was always, you know, this type of soul or this personality. And when I came to Facebook, these areas lit up because that's like the part that was similar to the personality of Facebook. And maybe those get expressed a little bit more, like a little bit more.

What were those parts for you? For me, what are the things that were resonant?

I think a lot of it was this, I'd probably accelerate my learning, this idea of like learning quickly is valuable and not being so afraid to try things even if they fail for the sake of learning. So that iterative culture I think really, really spoke to me. And in fact, there was a little resistance in the beginning because I was a little bit of a perfectionist even going in, right? I wanted everything to be done just so. I cared so much about perfection. And I think Facebook sort of whittled that down and showed me that like, actually there's no such thing as perfection because there's always, we're always learning, we're always learning. And so the best way to learn is you just gotta try and, you know, go back to even what we were talking about earlier, make some mistakes. And then you'll get wiser. And I think that that is something I hold very deeply now, right? And as we mentioned, even with Sundial, that's so much of how I see the world.

And you really embodied that. You were writing in public. You really were practicing new crafts out there. You were holding yourself to account and you were making demonstrable steps.

But I don't know if you knew, when I first arrived at Facebook, I don't know if you can remember me then, I was so insecure. I felt like such an imposter because, you know, I look at people like you and Aaron and other folks who've been designing, and I was totally new to design. You know, I'd basically done some art illustration. It was like a hobby, but I didn't know really anything about it from a formal perspective. Like, I never even knew what, like, typography was. Like, I didn't know what, you know, like, is there— so there's color, composition. Like, there's so much I felt extremely insecure about.. And I think Facebook was a great ground for like, you know what, that's fine. Like we're all—

I'm not learning together.

Exactly. Like I'm not trying to say like I learned this on day one. Like it took like, you know, years to really, to have that really sink in. But that was such a profound and wonderful experience to be able to say like, you know, it's okay that I don't know a lot of these things because we're at the edge. Like we're at the edge of doing all of these different things and like sometimes not knowing allows us to be more creative, be more experimental and figure it out. And going back to like if we just put in a lot of reps and we figure out what works from those reps and we just, you know, in the end people remember you for what you got right. Not like the fact that you tried 350,000 things that were wrong.

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. I think that's really well said. It's like if you printed out all the things that we shipped, like every announcement for like the first 5 years, You can rip to shred like 80% of it. Yeah. But nobody remembers the shreds. They don't remember it at all. They don't hold you, you know, they're like, oh, group deals didn't work at Facebook. That's right. You dummies.

There's so many. I've like forgotten them all.

Right.

But like the, that shop.

Yeah.

Yes. The like you shop for something and it automatically publishes a story.

Yeah. And the toaster. I love the toaster.

The toaster, which a lot of people miss, you know.

It turned out people didn't like when we launched Pandemic.

Yes. Or even mini feed.

Yeah, it was a— it was like, yeah, I always felt like it was just a lot of like really dumb unforced errors, but we kind of like iterated away around them. Yeah. What are the things that you feel like are, um, you feel more distance from? It's like, you know, there's that saying like we're like 85% water, but I felt like for a period I was like 85% like Kool-Aid. Yes. And I needed to kind of like distill the Kool-Aid a little bit, But then I kind of realized, wait, I don't have to distill it all, but I should distill maybe some of these.

Yeah. I think the thing that is different, and I've been able to see this a little more clearly, is the, you know, with Facebook we had said focus on impact, but impact was, I think, more distilled into like what we could measure. And again, I understand the practicality of that, right? If I talk about impact, like it's impact's such a fuzzy word. Yeah. And how do, we as like two different individuals with different minds and different brains, how do we align on what success truly looks like? And so if we can say, look, impact is like 46% of people click on this thing, then we're like, okay, well at least we know we're on the same page. But the 46% clicking on a thing is a proxy for what we really probably mean. Right. And for me, I care so much more about like what is really meant than I do maybe about like, or I have a maybe a much deeper appreciation for like the fact that putting a proxy metric to a thing that you really mean is a very difficult problem and it's an art. But what matters more is that feeling, not necessarily what the like whether or not we hit the proxy, if that makes sense. And I felt like Facebook, you know, to its credit, was like really, really good at getting everyone like they took the side of like get everyone aligned, get everyone, you know, being able to work on that. But sometimes maybe not having a lot of these like more bigger meandering conversations about like what is really meant when we think about impact. I think that's one difference. I think another is like just how much is competition a motivator? I actually, after a lot of soul searching, realized that like, you know, I appreciate— I'm really happy that I was able to work on consumer social, but even that whole domain, is one where like you have to move really fast if you want to be competitive. It's super, super hypercompetitive and I like competition, but I'm not like, that's not the thing that drives me. Like winning a competition is like not as much the thing that is meaningful for me as like, you know, maybe this is like my designer upbringing, but like as just knowing that like there's a person at the other end and I did something very meaningful for them and this was something that gave them a feeling, a moment of delight, which is hard to capture, right? It's hard to pin that down to a particular proxy. And that's not to say we should throw away proxies. I love proxies. I work in data. I know, like, you know, to me it's all information that helps us make better and better decisions. But that really motivates me and that it's very personal, you know, and I think that often companies are reflective of like the personality of the founder and what really drives them. And I look at like, I love Mark, I think he's one of the people I really respect, but like we're not, we're driven by different things.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that is an essential ingredient to leading effectively is that self-knowledge of what is the part in me that I need to sort of like radiate so it echoes back. How do I create a business whose strategy aligns with these parts of me? Yes. Because otherwise I'm almost like fighting myself or asking people to be something that I am not. Yes.

Right?

Yeah.

And I, yeah, I think that, you know, you mentioned that self-awareness, that self-reflection, that's honestly one of the most important parts. Like, you know, you mentioned even after you left Facebook, you had to go through that for yourself. Like, what is it that you want to do? And I think that's the same, even except, you know, even at Sundial, I've had to ask myself these questions, like, what do I really stand for? And whenever the team is confused, it's usually like reflective of some internal conflict I have with it. Interesting. Right? It's like, because it gets reflected out. It's like I might say one thing, but I might say this other thing and people are confused because these things are conflicting. They're conflicting because I have not figured out how I truly feel about this in my heart of hearts. And so it's like a mirror back. However things are running, it's often a mirror back for what is it that I feel conflicted about? Because It isn't, you know, I mean, yes, running a company is a game. And what I mean by game is like there's clear success metrics. Like you should probably make more money than you spend. Like that's the very basic game of like capitalism.

Make more time over time.

Yes. Right. And make more over time and show like a— but when it comes down to like, okay, should we do like we have a decision to make, like should we, you know, do feature A or feature B? It's not only ever about like for me and I think probably for most leaders, not only ever about like, What's the thing that maximizes revenue? Like if it did, like, I don't know that I would work on whatever space I work on. Like maybe we all work on, you know, the stuff that makes money, like porn, like junk food or whatever it is, right? Like there's, I mean, there's a very different category if you're just looking to optimize this one metric. It's never about that one metric, you know? And so, you know, go back to like every single person has like a set of things that they value. Like I'm sure many, many founders, if you're like, hey, you can make much more money if you, you know, did this type of sleazy advertising and sold cigarettes. And like a vast majority of like, I don't want to do that because of nothing about like capitalism and making money. It's like because of a personal value. Yeah. And so you got to understand, I think, and reflect on, at least for me, I like, I still do that. Like it's so much of what I think is weird or not going well with the company. Like I kind of have to be like, what does it say about what I'm not understanding or what I'm conflicted about internally.

Yeah, I want to like illuminate a little bit the genesis of Sundial and your decision to become an entrepreneur, because I think that sometimes what's missing in the world are examples of how people arrive at what are fundamentally really personal decisions, right? And it's not always self-evident. Usually what people see is the splashy launch and a product in the wild and the product marketing and the customer serves and all the testimonials and the numbers and the fundraise announcement, etc., etc. But they sort of really disguise what I think I know as an investor I'm often looking for. It's like, let's put aside the deck. What does the deck not say that I need to know to really believe in this going the distance, right? There's like a through line that sits at the heart of every outstanding business, right? And what is that through line for you? Like how did the genesis kind of come together?

I think I've always wanted to start a company. I took an entrepreneurship class back in college and I was new to Silicon Valley. I didn't really know that much about startups. I took an entrepreneurship class. I was like, oh my God, this sounds amazing. And I think I had a lot of respect for the people who went out and made something out of nothing. Like that as a thing to admire. I think from very early on, like, I just, I found that very brave. I found that very courageous and very, very exciting, admirable. And so I resolved that I should go and like try and work at a place like that. That's how I ended up joining Facebook. But it was still in my mind that like, I would want to do that one day. And I think if I could have done it earlier, I would've, but I, I think I was just too scared. I was too scared. Because I didn't think I knew that I could do it. There was always that feeling of like, I don't know that I can succeed in this endeavor. And obviously the slats are very sobering. And I think that for me, this journey of like, okay, how do I start something is really all about just building up the confidence, the conviction in myself, like me believing that I should at least try. And I go back to like, it doesn't mean that I felt like I had to succeed. Of course, I don't want to— I'm not going to do something like 100% you're going to fail. Like, would you even try? But some— enough of it had to be the case where I felt like it would be worth it, you know, that even if we ended up failing, I wouldn't— it would be a very, very meaningful experience. I wanted to go into it with that. And I think part of what I had to do is peel apart the focus on a particular outcome because I realized that was like actually shackling me and chaining me to not trying. Right. So if I told you that I had like a little bit of that perfectionist streak and I think what perfectionism really is, is like another way to say it is like you have a real fear of failing. You feel like if it doesn't go the way that you want, that things will fall apart. You're worthless. People are— no one's going to like you. There's just like all of this, like whatever dystopian scenario that your mind creates if you do not succeed. And I realized that that was shackling me from like taking a lot of risks and being able to experience a lot more of what life has to offer, which to me is just adventure. It's adventure. It's not certainty of anything, but it's like you tried and you— exciting things happened and you learn some things. And sure, like bad things happen, like Every single story has that, right? Every single story has despair and grief and loss and all of these. But it's not— I don't want to be scared of it anymore. I got to a point at Facebook where I realized that I wasn't learning at the same rate, because I think Facebook actually provided me with that feeling for a very long time. I started, I'm like, oh my God, I'm next to Soleil. I don't know anything about design. That's scary. And so work, work, work. Oh my God, I'm a manager. I'm 25 years old. I don't even know what a manager does. Like, what do I do? Hey, work, work, work. And, you know, Facebook, because it was so dynamic, was always presenting new challenges and opportunities. And then after I'd been there for maybe like 11, 12 years and had already sort of become like a larger company, and so the rate of growth was not as different year to year as what we saw before, that's when I realized my own rate of learning and risk was slowing. And that was when I realized I needed to go take a change. And I didn't go and start and say, I'm going to start a company. I was just, I need something else. I need something to give me that feeling that it's scary and it's risky and it's new. And that was when I started talking to my co-founder Chandra, who's one of my favorite people that I worked with while at Facebook. He led data while I led design for the Facebook app. And I think we always, always felt such a deep kinship over values. Like we had a very similar way of like relating to people. In fact, the thing that I admire absolutely the most about Chandra, just a single thing, is the fact that he has such deep— he's so authentic and he has such deep relationships with people that even after he was no longer managing these people, years later, they would always call him whenever they had a life transition because they wanted his advice. And to me, that was the marker of just an incredible manager. It's one of the things I value the most when I think about what I want to be and what kind of people that I want to be around. And so we just sort of were like, we should just work together. And again, we don't know what we're working on. We don't know what it will do. We actually consider a lot of things. We're like, maybe should we start And similar to you, should we go down an investment route? Like, should we just like invest in companies? We thought about, we did actually do some consulting for a while. So like we consulted with other companies on strategy and data. Out of that is where we kind of came up with the kernel for the idea of Sundial, which is like, take all of the best practices and again, not just the, there are patterns and playbooks, let's take those, but just more of like the ethos of like, why data? Like, why does data lead to better decision-making? Helps a company become more informed so that it can make better strategic decisions. And so how do we bring that into a more productized, scaled way? So that was really the problem.

And I think we always— I love that you went this like exploratory route of like consultation to kind of give that, give yourselves the space to realize, oh, here's the product opportunity rather than like, here's the deck, here's the memo, here's like the grand vision right out of the gate.

It was very organic. It was certainly very, very organic. And even now when I think about how much it's changed, you know, it's been like 4 years through that journey. Like so much about my assumptions, I go back and I'm like, oh my God, like, you know, you were so naive or you were— it's funny to say that. But I actually think the ethos, like the thing that's like the core, the kernel, the true belief, because if I look at anything like what I think about data is like, it really is a pursuit of truth. And I believe that as fundamentally as I believe anything, like that I want to be a kind of person that pursues truth. And I know Chandra is that kind of person. And that's, and even recently we were talking about, like there was a whole meme about founder mode. Like what is founder mode? What is founder mode? Right? And a lot of people mean, take it to mean like on the surface, very superficially, it's like the founders say XYZ and we do XYZ. Why is he? And I'm like, okay, okay. I think what it is though is like, obviously, as we were talking about before, I do think every company is so much a product of the true beliefs and personalities of the founder. To me, what founder mode is, is like, what do Chandra and I believe at our best? What's the best of us? And what's the belief that we have? It does not mean we always live it. I want to make that very clear. It doesn't mean that every single thing that I do is— I'm not perfect. And like, we have so many biases and we're not often aware of our own biases until someone else tells us or we go through this process and we realize the error of our ways. But what I believe at my best is like what I hope is the seed or the kernel. And so that even if like we're long gone, right? Like you think about enduring company, the kernel, which is the belief of what we are at our best, I hope that that continues. On. And for us at SunNow, it's like a real desire, respect for the truth, like getting more and more into what's truly there. Like true— and Chandra talks about this as like, you know, phenomenon is happening like all around us, like at this minute, you know, things are changing and we will never be able to measure all of it. Our brains cannot probably comprehend all of it, but there's always more and more to know. And if you know more, you will be more able to hopefully make the right decisions or do things according to your intention and your values. And so again, I'm not trying to tell other companies. And we have a lot of clients, like clients have different values. They have different intentions for what they want. And I'm not going to police that. I believe everyone should try and, you know, they have an intention, they should go for what they want. But is there a process in which you pursue truth so that you get all this information that will then help you in your journey to get what you want? And I think that's like maybe the singular core thing about what I hope is what I try to bring or live or how we think about the culture.

I love that. That's really well put. I think my big takeaway is the degree to which you saw early alignment on values and you gave yourselves the room to put it into practice before you set up the memo and the strategy. You sort of throw a lot of energy towards empire building. Yes. What advice do you give to designers who maybe feel like the one obstacle to starting something new is finding that right partner, that right founder, the person to work with and align with? Like, what advice do you give to them?

I think a lot of what I would say is like, put your own values out there. You know, I think like often gets attracted to like. So if you say more about what you care about, what you are excited about, and you make that known, you know, then I don't know. So I have a lot of belief, a lot of faith in the universe. But the other thing that I would also tell young founders, and I believe this too, is like, to me, the company is obviously an important chapter of the journey. And it's like what I'm very, very deeply dedicated to. But I think of it in the larger arc of a life. Right. And so, and when Chandra and I started working together, we often said this, we're like, we want to be doing this fully for 10 years, 20 years. Like we want to be doing this for the long run. We're not here just like for an exit. It's not really about like success. And not, again, not to say that like, I think like if I were at a different stage of my life, I would probably have a different set of values. But it's more just like, it's important to know what you care about and why you're doing it for yourself. Right. It doesn't matter if you say this to other people, but for yourself, it should be very clear. And so for Chandra and I was like, We want to build, we just want to work on interesting problems with people we like for as long as possible. And in order to do that, we need to build something valuable and we need to work on ambitious and like interesting problems tend to be ambitious ones. So let's take like all things being equal, take on a more ambitious problem rather than a less ambitious problem because it'll probably be more interesting. And to work with people we like, we want truth seekers and we want people who are dynamic and changing and like we're all going to make a bunch of mistakes together. But that more than anything else, I think, has shaped a lot of the ethos of what we do. And I'm glad we were able to have that conversation really early. And because we kind of knew that about ourselves. And I go back to like, if you know a lot about yourself and why it matters to you, why you're trying to start a company and you share all that and become very clear about that, right? Then I think you will attract the right people who will then have a similar aim, a similar ethos, and want to do this too. Together. And the worst thing that could happen is just internal inconsistency and conflict.

And how much responsibility you have to reconcile that or find that internal truth.

Yes. And that's true with even like YC. I've heard of a lot of co-founder conflicts and it often goes down to like, okay, there just wasn't maybe enough depth of really understanding what each person wanted or maybe what each person thought they wanted turned out to not be exactly what they wanted when they were really in it.

One of the things I've enjoyed about working with different startups is sort of hearing the ones that go on to do really well articulate, go through that process of articulating not even company values, but sort of like, you know, what are the cultural tenets of our business? It's rare, but sometimes I envy the articulation where it's like, oh yeah, that's a beautiful company value. And one that has stuck with me for a while is that Figma would talk about climbing the steep hill. It's in some ways, it's kind of retroactively explaining your own success. What was Figma's success? They climbed the steep hill, ignored all the advice, made a big technical investment up front. They climbed the steep hill because they were like, if we can get there now, we have a lot of control over our fate because everybody else is going to be zigging while we're zagging over here. And that has always been their philosophy. Philosophy. It's like run towards difficulty. And the reason why I bring it up is because when I look at like what I admire about you is you consistently climb the steeple. I think that like the propensity to learn fast requires you to attack the grade. And I've really admired like what you accomplished at Facebook over the same time period that we were there, what you did beyond my time there. It's amazing that you've written a book. I feel like You've got another book kind of lurking in this longer arc that you're seeking out, but thank you for being an inspiration to me.

Oh, thank you. I mean, it means a lot coming from you, really.

I feel like every time we chat, I learn so much, and I appreciate in many ways, like, the self-consistency that you exhibit in all these different facets, in all these different ways, that there's a sort of like a grand theory, right?

Well, there always is. I mean, you go back to like I really do believe that the journey is the destination. And so it's much easier to look back in retrospect and you can create a narrative of like what it is. But the true test is every day, right? It still is. You know, it's like every day I can be too complacent in certain cases, or I could be too blind in other places. And sometimes you won't see that until afterwards. But I do hope, like to your point, I do hope that that's like at least that I believe it. So, and I think you do too, right? I think that what's also interesting is when I look at Figma or other companies I admire, I do realize that maybe the way, we all have our own different nuances in the way that we see the world. But I do think that a lot of what I think always unites us as people, especially in Silicon Valley, is there's an optimism. There's a belief that the future can be better and we have agency to make it so. And then there is also, I think, a respect for, as you were saying before, just the fact that it is going to be difficult and there are going to be a lot of mistakes along the way, but there's value in being in the arena.

Yeah. And that capable, honest minds will prevail. Yes. At the end of the day.

Yeah, even though again, even day to day, moment to moment, sometimes reading the news, it's easy to become cynical sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we gotta fight that.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think that's another thing about the Valley that has really resonated with me personally is it's easy to kind of take for granted this stance that like things can be better and you can make it so, right? That that's such an exceptional stance for a broad set of people to have in the aggregate, because that's not necessarily the de facto stance that people have in the broader world. And so it's something to hold dear and to keep pushing forward.

The other thing I was thinking about when you said the steep hill for Figma, that made me— that thought that came to mind is like, hard or steep is maybe also contextual. To each person in each company. It's like things that might be really easy for one group of people could be really hard for another. But maybe the principle is still like, go after the thing that is hard, like, don't be afraid of it, right? Try and actually jump in into the icy cold pond or whatever metaphor.

Or like the path of least resistance can sometimes be deceptive. It can kind of pull you Towards areas where you're like, well, how do we even end up here? We almost took a little bit too many shortcuts, particularly attack the steep hill.

Yeah. And even every company that I know who on paper they're like, oh, they're doing wildly great. And it seems from the outside that it's a very smooth path. But you just don't know the story. That's all it is. It's not. They've all tackled some very difficult hardship one way or another. Sometimes it's just not visible to the outsider.

When you look back on, you had an incredible tour of duty at Facebook. For me, it always felt like working for 3 companies. I imagine for you, it must have felt like working for 6. There's just a different permutation every 2 or 3 years. When you look back on that period, what are you proudest of? What do you look back on and say, you know what, this is the thing that I feel like I'll be able to take with me to my grave that I was able to uniquely contribute and that that's What's sort of that moment, that project, that initiative, that impact that I had that is in the shape of Julie Zhuo?

I don't know. I don't know that there's any, I certainly don't think about any particular product or feature or because all that seems so temporary to me, right? I go back, like software is so dynamic. Like let's say we shipped a thing, like button, like it was so, it was innovative at the time. A lot of people loved it. It was very impactful, but now like, It just is. It's no big deal. And so I feel like every single product innovation or even people, same with them, it's like you impress people for a week and then they get used to your innovation and then they're just like, they start to see all the flaws with it. So I don't know that that has been sustaining. I think if there's anything, it's probably the people. If I look back on what seems lasting, and I don't think this is forever lasting either. Like, you know, we're all here for a short time on this planet. Yeah. I look at, for example, the people that I was able to be helpful for, right, in their career at that time in their journey. I think about people that I recruited into Facebook and then the careers that they went to have. That's probably what speaks to me the most.

Yeah.

Is it's the relationships, it's the connections that we made and ability, like, I think, you know, like, you've had a tremendous impact on helping me and the work that I've done as a designer. That'll always be a part of me, right, to my deathbed. Like, I'll think about, you know, how I went and met you on that day and like our small design team and all the times you were patient with me and explained things to me. Like, that's a part of like how I turned out. Yeah. You know, and, and so I think that that's probably what speaks to me the most is like every time we get to do good work together, it's like an honor and a privilege that ideally I did something valuable for you, you did something valuable for me, and then we get to continue on in our journeys with that.

Yeah. Earlier you were talking about the ways in which one can signal their values, right? And what immediately jumps to mind is that you've been writing in public for a long time. Is that a form of a form of like signaling your values? Is it a way to kind of bring people into the fold of what you're working on? Like, what does writing serve for you at the early part of that journey and up through the present? What does it serve for you now?

It's such a great question because I often tell people the origin story of writing publicly. So actually, the first story is that when I first joined Facebook and I was a designer, and an engineer, I honestly wasn't sure I was going to succeed in this profession. And it sounds funny to say now, because most people are like, really? But I think I was like, you know, if it doesn't work, I need a plan B, and my plan B should be to be a novelist. So on the side, in those first 4 or 5 years after I would come back from Facebook, I would work on my novel. And I think it was like an insurance policy of sorts so that I could—

What a beautiful hedge.

I love it. So I have these 4 unpublished young adult novels. And it turns out I'm actually— I turned out to be a better designer and technology builder than a novelist because none of those were— I sent them to a bunch of agents and they were all summarily rejected. And now I look back and I'm like, you're right. They actually suck. But that's probably how I got into my writing practice is I'd go home every night and I would just Right, right, right, right. And I would try and like have this, you know, a side thing that maybe if this career doesn't work, I could, I could do this. Then one of these years, okay, so I did 4 novels, had that kind of practice, right? But it was all obviously in secret. And then I got a piece of feedback once at one of my performance reviews. And I think the piece of feedback was something along the lines of like, you know, Julie, one-on-one, you seem to have a lot of great ideas, but I never hear them in a group. Like as soon as the room is like 4 or 5 or 6 people, you never say a word. And I knew that because like I really struggled, you know, and I didn't want to struggle. I was like, oh, I admire all these people who could just say what's on their mind. But I really, really struggle with saying things in a large group. And the reason why is at the time I was just afraid of like saying the wrong thing. And that everybody would think I was an idiot. And like, that was such a huge, huge fear. And so I remember it was like, I thought about this, I got the feedback, and then it was like close to the start of the new year, and I like doing New Year's resolutions. So I thought that what I would do was just blog publicly for a year because I wanted to practice putting my opinion out in the world, even if it's stupid or ridiculous or people didn't like it. I just needed to like press the publish button. And so that was really the goal. It wasn't like write something great or like how many readers do you need? It was just push the publish button, do it once a week and put it on Medium and just see where it goes. And I really like, and it was like very, very torturous in the beginning because I would look at this blank sheet of paper and, or, you know, it was like a, obviously it was like on Medium, so it was a digital version. Right. And I would just like, what am I gonna say? What am I gonna say?

Where's ChatGPT to get me started?

What is it like? What even is like, what is even an opinion that I have? You know, like it was, it was that like, it would just some, like sometimes it would be like an hour of staring at that sheet and be like, I don't know what to write about. I don't know what to say. But then naturally the things that would come to me are like things I'm struggling with at work. And so that became the easiest thing to write about is like, okay, so like, what do I naturally just think about? It's like, okay, this thing's going wrong or like, What's the best way to do critique? Or how should I think about hiring? Because these were like the problems that were in my mind. And then I would just start writing about those problems. And what I realized after that first year was how helpful it was for me. So it did achieve some of that initial goal. Like it made me more comfortable, although that still took longer before I got to the point where I was really comfortable just saying whatever I wanted to say in front of a large group. And there's still moments I can feel the resistance. It's like much— it's very small now, but I can still feel it. But what I got from that first year was I realized, whoa, like it's kind of therapeutic. Yeah. Like writing allowed me to take all these different thoughts and structure them and come to better terms with them. And I still think about that. Like all of my writing now for me is mostly for me, right? Again, sometimes I write for the audience. There's been, you know, I go back to like One extreme is like, it's for me and it's for like what's good for me. And there's like, what would get me— what would be most valuable for the audience or the people that I want to speak to? And every single piece, there's like a little spectrum of like, how far am I trying to do A versus how far am I trying to do B? For the most part, it's always at least 50% for me or more. There's some pieces that are far more like where I'm like, I got so much out of writing that piece, even if nobody else really cared or read it. And the thing I get out of it is essentially like letters to myself. And so I always describe all my writing or even the making of The Manager, like really one of the main reasons I took that on was like, I think writing this book can make me a better manager because it's going to force me to confront a lot of these issues and get to like, what do I really believe about what makes for great management? And if I write about it and I think about it all the time, like I hope that again, it absorbs and then I can actually be more of that. Right. And so, yeah, they're all letters to myself, most of them. And it really, really does help me think. And now I'm one of those people who, like, you know, most writers do this, but they like always talk about like writing was so valuable for me. And I'm like, you know, you guys should try it too. And I go back to like, I don't know, like you can't really convey it until you try it yourself and then you see what it does for you. Certainly I feel like it's given me a lot more of like a mirror back of like, who am I? What is it that I stand for? What do I believe? Like, you know, all of the questions we talked about, which is like, how hard is it to sometimes know yourself? Like, it's hard. It's like a lifelong journey. And I believe that I'll never really fully get to know myself. Like, I realize like knowing the self is a bit of an illusion now. Like, I am always going to be a mystery to me, at least when I say myself, I mean my subconscious, like why I do what I do, like what's— because most of us are like automatically programmed to react to things based on our childhood or conditioning, right? It's like we're actually very conscious of very, very little. And so all that's underneath my conscious thoughts is like me, but I don't think I'll ever fully understand that.

Has it given you a way to write down to that core inside?

Yes.

Or access it in a way that maybe self-talk did not work, or therapy, or conversing with friends or peers did not work? Was it a different sort of channel?

I would say most of the writing that is on the internet that I publish is probably a little bit more like my conscious mind is— it's analytical process, right? Structuring and coming in and trying to put a little bit more of a scaffolding or structure around loose ideas and thoughts. And sometimes during the writing, there will be self-discovery, like, it'll pull me to a place where I'll have like a new thought. But actually a lot of it I would say is like organizing what's there and making it a little bit more deep, a little more real, you know, going back to like sometimes I have a thought and I'm like, yes, this is brilliant. And I start writing and I'm like, this doesn't really make any sense. So that's what I mean by like, it's analyzing. It's like a, it's like it's a good editor for a lot of these random thoughts that I have and it tries to curate them. It's like a curatorial process of doing that. But I do do other types of writing like journaling. Sometimes I'll just do freeform poetry or other things, and I think that probably unlocks a little bit more of what's going on more deeply. When people used to describe this to me before I did it myself, I used to think like, oh, I'd write, write, write, and like, aha, there's an insight, and it doesn't really work like that. It's more like I write, write, write, and then like, this is kind of junk, but then later in the day or the next day or whatever, I just realize like more ideas kind of unlock things in your head.

Yeah, and I think— thinking—

yeah, exactly. And so whenever I think of that like insight moment, of like the new idea moment, that what I at least metaphorically think about is like, it's like my subconscious is like speaking to my conscious mind. It's like, here's a thing, right? And then the conscious mind's like, oh, like interesting, like, you know, let's like consider it, right? So the more that happens, the more I'm like, yes, I'm in kind of a creative zone. And, you know, no surprise, like whenever I sometimes go running and then I take a shower, it's like the shower is like, here's like 20 ideas. I'm like, oh my gosh, like we're really firing, you know, right now. But that's kind of what it feels like.

Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like a, I get that sometimes with great conversations. Yeah. Where I get a set of ideas or work fragments or even a turn of phrase will just start to rattle around in my head and almost like stir up the pot of ideas that were sort of just kind of lurking there for a bit. And it makes you kind of relook at things that you're otherwise ruminating on in a new light. Yes. Yeah. And sometimes it is writing, sometimes it is a run, sometimes it is that turn of phrase. Yes. And it creates like new possibilities that I just don't know how I would've been able to manufacture on my own.

Right. Yeah, that's right. And so I have a lot more respect than I used to. I used to think I was just my conscious mind. I'm like, that's me, that's my— and now I have a lot of respect for the fact that what's me or what's you, it's unknowable to some extent. We just get these little peaks when it happens and it's really delightful when it does. And so a lot of times I think about how do we nurture that? Or how do I sometimes give a really big problem to this subconscious mind, but then not overthink it. Because like, you know, sometimes I think we also learn this, like overthinking doesn't help. Overthinking is ruminating. It's when your conscious mind is like trying to make process, but it can't because it doesn't have the fuel for the new idea sources. So you kind of sometimes would be like, chill out, stop ruminating. Let's like present the problem, you know, and let's go and do some other stuff. And then let's like take a nap or let's go to sleep and maybe tomorrow something will happen. And so I don't know what else to call that process other than like, it's kind of like a magic, a faith-based thing for what the creative process—

Or letting the brain breathe a little bit.

Exactly.

It's almost like letting it kind of marinate into that subconscious so that it can come back out in a new form.

Yeah. And writing does that. Writing helps.

Your writing though, I always felt like was very authentic. Authentic. It didn't sort of feel like a corporate version of Julie, you know, doing it performatively. It felt like you. And what I remember going through after Facebook was sort of untangling Facebook brain, trying to disambiguate like the separation of like, what is Facebook culture and what is me? And like, which parts of Facebook culture will come with me? Which parts of me are like not consistent with like that way of being per se. And that was a much less tidy an exercise than I would've liked. It took much longer than I expected. It required me to have to work in other contexts to really start to tease out the boundaries. Did you feel like you had to go through a similar process? Was there a gravitational force that, you know, you were in such a prominent role at the company, that like, did you ever feel like there had to be like a version of Julie Zhu that had to show up to work every day that was either divergent or a subset of who you were? Or do you felt like you can sort of be the same Julie Zhu that was writing in public in that context?

Was there tension there? Yeah, there absolutely was, but maybe a slightly different way than what you described. I think my problem coming into Facebook, you know, I grew up in Chinese household, much more of a collectivist culture compared to the US. And so to me, I've always sort of straddled a little bit of both lines. And so I can very much appreciate like what is great about collectivism and also what's great about like, you know, liberal Western democracy. Obviously, I'm biased more one way than the other. But I think what I struggled with at Facebook, and it goes back to like, why did I have trouble speaking up in meetings is like I wanted so much, like I cared so much to be a part of the whole that I lost a little bit of like myself in that process. So that's why like it was very hard for me to even have an opinion. Like, you know, you would ask me, what did you think about this thing? And I would be like, well, what do you think? And what does Kael, what does everyone around me think? And then I would kind of curate that opinion, right? And again, go back to like which of these seems like more my leaning, but I would take a lot of care to try and like properly summarize it because I felt like my job in some ways was for the greater good. So this idea of like when I was part of Facebook, I was like, I never even actually knew what I was outside of that. I was just like, what does the company need me to do? And I remember even having conversations with my manager where she would ask me questions like, what do you want to work on next half? And I'm like, I don't know, what do you do you need me to work on? You know, and so that was, I think, a lot of that— my early childhood, my like collectivist upbringing. And so what writing allowed me to do was like, I needed to think, Julie, what do you think? Like, what, what's on your mind? And that's probably why you see that my writing is probably much more consistent, because I— it was like the outlet for me to practice actually understanding a little bit more about what I stood for. But I did struggle a lot with voice early on. I was just talking to like another writer friend of mine, and a funny story there was like in a lot of my earlier writings, like that first year that I was doing, you know, weekly writing on Medium, you'll notice that a lot of the pieces have me speaking in the second person. So I would create a hypothetical scenario and the way I would write is like, you show up to work and you think this, you're wondering to yourself, why, why, why? And that is actually a crutch for me to not use I because I was too personal. It was too, like, too loaded. It was too loaded. Yeah, I couldn't figure out how to actually do I, and so all of those early pieces are you because you is like a little bit more distant in terms of conveying that. And then eventually, you know, through the part of my journey, you'll realize that there are like a couple pieces where I took a risk and I was like, look, I want to now talk about I and what I stand for. And but it was like a journey, and you could actually see that like reflected in, in, in the years of, of essay writing.

That's incredible. I've taken away so much from this conversation.

This is like, it's so fun to talk with you. I mean, you're, it's like you're a great conversationalist.