S1E5| Customer-Led Growth, Dead Rolodexes & Sales Engineering with Jorge Macias & Spencer Tahil

All right. Hey everybody. Today we've got Jorge on the potty. This is going to be a completely unscripted conversation. We've got some hot take conversations for enterprise sales and probably why we both have bags under our eyes from staying up lately. But Jorge, welcome. Come on, let's do the intro and let's get to it, I guess.

Beautiful. Thanks, Spencer. First of all, thanks for the invite. We've had a few really good conversations in the past. I remember Nathan brought you in for the clay boot camp for like to speak to us a little bit about your experience and I immediately messaged you like, dude, let's have another conversation offline between us. I just vibe. It vibed a lot with the way like your approach, the way you're thinking about your agency and all that. And that conversation turned into talking about like babies gaming us when we were being young, about like traveling family, all that. So super excited for, for this podcast and to talk about all of it here.

Cool. So should we just start with the hottest take that we had, which is like probably leaning on your domain of like, the Rolodex is dead.

Let's do it. Yeah. I think there's two reasons why the Rolo. I think the Rolodex is dead. One is with AI and how easy it is to build new technology. There's a lot of more technology that is going to be built and there's not enough people having Rolodexes to be meaningful for all the new markets and all the new technology that is being created. So that's kind of like the point in time take of how AI impacts that. And then the other side, the flip side is we're living in a world.

Where.

Companies want to build systems. They want to build like a money generating machine. And I think when you bring on someone with a Rolodex, it has like a finite number of leads or deals that they could intro you based on their past experiences, based on people that they know and as and those incentives are dealigned. So the company is looking for a long term sustainable system, like revenue generating system. And then the person has a different incentive because they know a bunch of people, they don't want to burn their trust with that people. But at the same time they know a certain number of amount of people. So if they go into all of their roll decks or all their contacts and say like, hey, start this new job. I'm selling this new thing and you guys who's interested and you can close a bunch of deals really fast. But then what Are you going to do with that seller long time? What are you going to do with that? And by the way, someone that's going to cost you a lot of money because these type of senior salespeople are usually very expensive. So they're going to burn through the trust of their, of their contacts which hurts them. They're probably going to close a lot of deals really fast. So short term win for the company. Yes. But long term lose for the company because they're not going to build like a sustainable revenue generating machine that's going to, that is going to be predictable.

So, so what do you think is like really more important? Because I know we talked about this, it's like we work with a lot of founders, right? It's like the mindset between you know, machine, like a finite network system versus kind of like the infinite kind of the target addressable market. Right. We hear this word tam, tam tam, you know, TAM app building, all this crap. Right? How do you personally or how, how have you seen it done where you're shifting the mindset for like a founder or an operator going from like network, network tapping versus like true demand gen.

I think first I have a hot take about the TAM Sam Sum, the famous three, three, three words. And my hot take there is like founders have been racing money and talking to investors with this made up numbers based on statistics about like geography, how many people, like how many, like some sort of like very macro studies. And we're moving into a world where you can actually test your TAM Sam Sum like was your toddler someone. Who are the companies, who are their domains, who are the people that are working in those. And we're moving in a world where you can easily do that math by experiment first by building like a massive list of who are your, the number of companies that you can actually address and reaching out to them to see how many are interested in your, in the problem that you're solving. I think for too many years founders raised money and sold companies and bought companies using those made up numbers and now investors are pushing back. Or if like is that really your sum? Like can you really create that demand? Can you really like are they really interested in the problem that you're solving? And that's going to create like a different process where instead of founders building like a pitch deck and going out and raising money, they're going to have to build a pitch deck, experiment a little, find actual traction and then go and raise money. So that's kind of a change that I'm seeing just by Talking with a lot of VCs, private equity firms and founders. But yeah, going back to your question, can you repeat it again?

I forgot the question. I'm sorry. I thought of a new one though.

Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

I messed up. I mean this is like why I don't like doing the same special cuts, right? I mean like, I think, I think like some of these companies, right? And I've noticed this is like the fastest growing companies have like the worst salespeople. And I, and I think you're closer to the action than I am. But I always end up working with the VP of sales or like with these revenue operations people and they're like, why isn't shit closing? Well, you, you hired this really expensive guy, you know, 18 months ago that they burned their bridges and you guys didn't put a system in place. Y DY doo like now you have to hire me to fix the shit, right? But you, you come from the sales training background. So is that like it's still existent, right?

Yeah, it's, it's still a problem, I think. I don't want to tie back everything to AI, but I think with a lot of AI slop, sellers have lost their touch with the basics. And when I'm talking about like the basic parts of selling, it's like sending a meeting reminder, setting a confirmation, sending like a recap email, building like a deck that doesn't have any typos or that it's not like stop. It's like real critical thinking of someone going through that. And, and I think when time, as time passes and you get into like sales leadership and VP of sales positions and you've not sold for so long, you start losing track of those basic aspects of, of the selling process. And then you start seeing deals stall or go cold and you don't understand why because you're not kind of training on the basics. So I think that has a lot to do. And then I think there's also on the flip side, a lot of companies are also hiring like very young, very like right out of college salespeople that don't understand the problems of your market really well, that don't understand even like the business world, they don't understand how budget works, how stakeholders, how like multi threading, how like none of these things work. And then what happens is you cheap out, you cheap out on talent. And then you get, you, you have like a 6, 9 month delay when you start noticing that those experiments or those decisions that you make way Long ago are not getting good results.

So do you think that and we, this is like very relevant to like what we do as people that are helping these like sales, you know, these enterprise sales teams and stuff like this. Do you feel like it's more important to have a good offer or a good seller?

A good offer or a good seller? I think I would prefer a good seller because I, I heavily think great offers make the worst sellers. So if, if you think, if I think back to like the biggest companies in the world, they have so much demand out of like their marketing, their brand, their brand awareness, the like, everyone knows them. So 60 or 50% of the trust work that you need to do as a seller is already done by marketing. So you turn into. And I know corporate bro is always making fun of these people like order takers or people. I. There's sellers that are just jumping on call after call after call and you're, they're just taking orders versus when you have an offer that's not as good or product that hasn't been in the market for so long, doesn't have that much of a brand awareness. Like the seller needs, needs to build that trust from zero. And that's harder to do through email, through cold outbound, through like cold calling, things like that. So they, they get better at approaching someone that has never known them, that doesn't know anything about their company, doesn't know anything about them and create that trust and that a deal and that sales process into a way that, that's repeatable and that, that you can grow within.

That's. I would, I would be interested to disagree with that. I would say a great offer would be to great seller at least until you start to get like to like a traditional sales motion. Actually like I, I think like if you're, if you have like a great seller, it's, it's cake like you can sell paper to a printing machine. Right. But like I, what I've seen is where it's like where it's more like plg. It's like you will totally know if that offer, if it's positioned well enough. And I think this is what I love doing is I like stepping onto gas of like what people are doing. I'm not disagreeing with you like fully, but I, I. What I'm saying is like nowadays like now we have like tools like clay. We have tools with like Claude and like GPT and all this stuff. And what you can do is just completely rapidly experiment on different offers, on different positionings with the Same product with this, you know, with the same value add. Right. And that's what a lot of teams are doing. That's what we do is we, we put everything in either a repo and we pull from the repo and we say, okay, match this feature to this need that came up in the call recording from Gong or from Fireflies. And then from there we just enable the reps. Right. And I think it comes exponentially easier for these sellers to become great at their job if the offer is well positioned.

I think so too. But then if you're, if all the systems are being created for these sellers are already showing most of the data, shoeing most of the context and doing most of the work for them, then are they really being great sellers or are they just being handed like the data points into specific things that are helping them close more deals?

Exactly. And that's exactly where I was getting to. It's because I think like the fundamental skill of, you know, the fundamental skill that's becoming more and more scarce nowadays is just listening in general. Like, I don't think a lot of people like go to discovery calls, like great sellers will shut up and you know, like you have all of these tools to tell you like percentage of talk time and all this. Like, you know, like, like whatever, man. Like what? Like it's fine, like to build a rapport. But I feel like the best sellers ask questions and then disqualify. And I think that's like, that's what enterprise people do. I mean there's so many, there's so many systems and there's so many tools that have been developed that have just been placed in the hands of enterprise sellers, in my opinion, where they are. You know. For instance, I don't generally believe that enterprise sales is significantly harder than SMB or mid market sales. That's my hot take.

That's interesting.

I just think that people that are in enterprise sales have a longer attention span and they're able to contextualize across different people and different needs a lot easier. That's the only difference between enterprise sellers and mid market, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think, I don't disagree. I don't disagree because I, I've been like an SMB seller and the grind is hard. Like I had to close like 15, 20 deals each month. And the context switching is brutal. It's brutal. And like the, the volume of messages, emails and contracts that you're, that you're like going through is so high. It's very like, it's tiring for sure. But I also think that like the skill set is just so different. Like when you're enterprise sells, you have to think about like, like how does this tie back to like quarterly goals? Like what's the story that we're selling to the whole organization? How are you multi threading? Like it just, ah, it's, it's kind of like a different, a fully different job. It's like a whole different beast. So I, I, I don't think, I think, I don't disagree with you, but I also think we're comparing, like, we're not comparing apples to apples, we're like comparing different fruits with each other. But it's basically like a, a different job. And I wouldn't like to say that one's easier or not, but the kind of, the number of the amount of information that you're digesting, it's also very different from one or the other.

Yes. I think instead of having 200 accounts, you have 50. Right. But for each account you have four people that you're talking to. You have four people you have to make happy. Right. I think it's easier for me because I like to multi thread and I think it's like contextually it's, you know, I'm selling into these like series B, series C, or like even these larger enterprises. Right. And all I do is I just talk to the people that are in pain and then I ask to talk to the people ground level. And then I start to talk to the people that are actually controlling the wallet. And then you just line up all of their, you know, all seven of their, you know, their needs and their wants and their timelines. And for me it is hard, but it's very interesting. So for me it becomes a lot easier than trying to say like, you know, trying to put somebody in a bucket, you know, I feel like that happens a lot. And I feel like that happens a lot from you know, like a lot of like people, I would say like us that are building these like outbound motions where it's like, hey, buy this $5,000 thing. Hey, buy this $6,000 thing. Hey, get on the call with us. Hey, would you be interested in this cheat sheet? And, and this is the, that's going on. Right? So okay, I, I have misspoken. It might not be easier, but I guess for me and my desire, it would be easier.

Yeah, I think fundamentally is the difference because there are two types of policemen. There's the one that gives out like traffic tickets, which is transactional. It's like, I See your speeding, I'm gonna give you a ticket right now. And there's the detective that's like the homicide detective that's studying like who's the person that was killed, how, why, what are their like close people? Why would someone have a beef with them? And they're going deeper and deeper and they're both working for the police, but they're two different jobs all together.

Yeah. So do you think that there's ever scenarios nowadays that you know, kind of like more of a human based selling approach still, like still wins or do you feel like I know that we just going back to the topic of like a Rolodex or like a book of people that you can call up and like hey dude, buy this. Hey dude, I think that this would be great. Like do you still think that this exists?

Yeah, I think it's never going to go away because when you're hiring a salesperson and you're going through and you're interviewing the person that has like a book of business that they can immediately plug into your business. So it's going to be more tempting than hiring someone that has very good potential to build something long term. So I think that's going to continue happening. But I also think that with go to market engineering we're going to start transitioning that process into when is the right time to message someone that you might know. And there is a lot of tools are being created in that space where instead of you burning through your bridges really fast, you're kind of systemizing the approach of how you reach out to them. I know the swarm is one that has been used a lot. I recently spoke with the founder of hivesight which is doing something similar. So kind of just creating like your own cluster of really deep connections. And it's gonna get better and better with time because. How do I explain this? It's so hard. Like you can have, you can know like for example, I have 8, 10, you might have a few thousand followers on LinkedIn but that doesn't mean that you, you have a deep connection with each of them. And the data that the public data that you can scrape to validate. If you have a deep connection with someone that's on your LinkedIn follower list or your connections, it's minimal. Like what you can check comments, likes, the real juicy data, it's in DMS. If you've DMed with someone like 50, 100, 150 messages that that's where you know like you've not you went through like adding a connection to like yeah, I'm, I could call this person my friend and I can actually reach out to them but that data is not publicly available. So. So I think there is a world where we can systemize and it's going to keep building and I think tools like the Swarm and like Hive side they're going to continue building and they're going to finally find a solution to one, find a way to validate how close a relationship you have with someone that you can actually reach out to for like that Rolodex intro. And secondly, when is the right or the perfect time to reach out? I think there are tools like, like clay, like common room, like user research, like that creates signals based on certain account things are happening. Hiring, racing, technographic, a bunch of different reasons that you can then go to your network and be like hey Spencer, I saw that you hired this role or that you're using this tool and this is the way that we can, we can. This, this is what I'm working on right now and this how I can think I could help you. And that's going to be more powerful. So I don't think the Rolodex, it's going to stop existing. I just think the way we're approaching it, it's changing as these tools are coming out.

Do you. Okay, yeah. And I think, I think this is where we start getting into like what we do is like signal based playbooks and we what is a signal? What is intent? How do we define the differences between the two? Right? And like for instance like I'm, I'm, I'm with the swarm. Like I like luckily I got very good friends with both of the co founders and what I'm using them for is to map, map the target accounts for some of like my clients and you know, to see who knows who and then use that data to not, to not sequence on top of that data immediately. But wait for, wait for an engagement, wait for intent, wait for like a cluster of signals, right? Like okay, the, the company just raised funding, you've gotten hired. You know it says on LinkedIn or swarm data says that like you were hired within the last, your start date was in the last four months as the vp. You know, like maybe you actually have just been in the door. Right? Nobody changes. The thing with LinkedIn is that people are. The problem is that they don't update their information as much as they want. And so then by the time like people update their information, it's all screwed. So the easiest way is just to see who Knows who at the end of the day. Right. Like relationship based selling and these signals, you know, like there's all of the data is being commoditized and I think that's a good thing but also a bad thing because we look at who the data is out there. If you're smart enough, you'll go get it, you'll build that, that web scraper, you'll go to appify, you'll build that, you know, that thing. But if you're lazy, then you can sell the shortcut and you can sell the pre built till tool to go scrape that data or to consolidate or that bridge. Right. Like, and I think clay is a really good, I think clay is a really good example of like the easy way to do something that's not technically hard, but making it very easy to do many of those things at one time.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think the sweet spot, it's right in the middle, you can do one to everyone. So you can create a list with everyone that you want to target and do a message for everyone. But that message is going to be templatized because since everyone has different companies, different jobs, different titles, you need to consolidate a lot of the messaging to make it fit one to everyone. But then it's the, there's the other side of that where it's one to one, where you're going to each lead one by one, opening the LinkedIn, seeing who they know, what they do, what they've done in their past, where do they work for, going to their website, seeing what jobs they have available. That's the one to one, that's what most enterprise sellers do. And one, two, everyone is what most SMB sellers do. They just throw in and whatever bites, it's, it's good. And I think the sweet spot, it's right in the middle where you're not, when you're personalizing enough, where you stand out from the crowd, but you're not spending as much time as the one to one. So you can do a little bit of more volume but you're not also sending like a super generic, very templatized thing for every single one. So I think the sweet spot is going to be in the middle and with the right signals. So when you reach out to the right person at the right time, that's where the magic happens.

Right person, right time, right message.

Exactly.

So I give the four to you. What hot take or what question would you like to explore now? Because I've covered everything that I thought that, I mean I Thought it was gonna take us a lot longer to go through everything, but I feel like we can add some spice to this conversation again.

We can talk about like the LinkedIn algorithm and how it's kind of promoting people with very hot takes. Like, dude, I've been fired up about this. I see a lot of people don't hire an agency because you're gonna spend this much and you're going to do this, this, this and that. And I just created a tool that you can use my tool so you don't have to hire an agency. And when you see their profile, they're like right out of college or they've been working at an enterprise company for 20 years, they haven't sold anything their life. And I'm like, dude, come on. Like, how is the LinkedIn algorithm kind of promoting this?

I thought you were gonna call my ass out. I'm like, don't.

No, no.

I was like, oh, God. And then you're like, okay, the guys from like the TW right out of college, I was like, okay, okay. It's not me. Yeah, I think, well, I think the anti agency approach is like pretty, pretty relevant right now because it's like, I feel like a lot of people are getting pissed off about like paying for agencies and then the agency turns around and whips its name neck and is like, ah, we created crap work because we hired these people halfway across the world, right? They're so, they're so disjointed from the business, you know, the business venture and the business strategy that like, they can't be connected ground level. Right? And, and I'm, I'm saying this on the, the umbrella terminology here, right? I genuinely believe that like, if you do a good job for 2, 3, 4, 6 months and you get in, you do your shit, you get out and that team is self efficient, self sufficient and everything, like that's successful in my opinion. That's my definition of success. But I feel like this. Go build a tool. Go, go use this NA to N template. Hey, I built this NA template to replace 10 of my marketing team members. The rest of that sentence is I never hired 10 people because I don't have the money to hire 10 people. And I built this tool because it was easier.

I Love that. Take 100 with you. I think there's also a problem with agencies that want to work with customers forever. And I don't think the agency model fits for that of like that retention. And we all have the SASS background of like the software as a service like retention, you want to keep you want to farm you, whatever. I don't think the agency plays really well with that because like real success comes from they being able to be successful without you. For them and for you, real success comes from like staying and working there forever and like having a client that, that can pay you for a long time that you can retain. And I think those two incentives are de aligned. So it creates for a bad experience. So if you have hundreds of agencies, a lot of having this misaligned incentives that's going to create like bad flavor for the market around that. So the way that I like to approach it is I like to build and teach. So instead of my service being like a black box where you just give me a few inputs about your business, I go and build and launch the campaigns, I just pass you leads, I, I build the clay table with you. I teach someone from your team how to build it. I do like a session where I built myself. I co build with someone, someone builds without me and I just give them feedback and we iterate on that, on that formula for, for a while just to make sure that I can go away in any time and they can keep running this new style of, new way of thinking about campaign signals and all this without me.

Yeah, and I think the education part is like what's missing? And I, and I, you know, I've talked to a few other people in this like podcast series as well as like on LinkedIn. It's like you as a buyer need to do your own due diligence and educating yourself before you come to like somebody like me or somebody like you, Jorge, like, we can't hand you, we can, we can hand you everything on a silver plate, but you're probably not going to want to pay for it. Right? And I think, and this is what I teach the boot camp students too. It's, well, go ahead, go ask the experts. Like you can text me anytime you want, but like don't expect me to open the whole textbook. Find in chapter eight and that one line and explain that to you. Like, come prepared, say, I read the whole book, I had issues. I saw the YouTube channel, I saw your explanation and I just had a question about that one thing in particular. Could you explain it to me? And I think that education is missing in a lot of these, like, you know, it's missing in a lot of like the sales positions now of we see this tool, I want to make my job easier. LinkedIn says Clay is the answer. Let's go buy clay and I don't think, and I don't think that there's like this, this, this connection in between that is happening as much as it should. Because I, I honestly believe, like, you know, before we started the recording, you were like, yeah, we're, we're all in the same circle. It's a bubble, bro. You know, and, and I, and I think like, you know, I talked to a lot of like the series A, like type of founders as well as like some other agencies. And like all most of the Series A people, if they went through a funding round, they probably know a lot of other Series A founders, right? So it's just, it's getting, not getting in bed with them, but kind of like understanding why they're on the mission. Why did they choose that accelerator? Why did they choose that, you know, incubator or whatever and say, oh, do you, you know, of course, like from my side, I'm going to ask you, like, who do you, who do you know? Like, you know, are you are. Do you have a springboard? But that's also learning with you, like what information are you curious about in the market? And then I can start educating them before they even buy. And to me that's like my version of teaching, you know.

Yeah, I think, I think that's super powerful. But I also think companies need to have a higher threshold when hiring an agency because I've seen companies like, hey, I hired this dude that completed the clay cohort or that like he told me he knew how to use these tools. And I was like, but how? Like, did that person show you something that they built like that they like, did you give them like an assignment or something to validate? They're good at this. Cuz like. I have like a tool analogy that I always like to say. Like you can give a hammer to anyone and they can use the hammer. Like they know how to use the tool, but it's not as given like the wood, the nails and the hammer to a camper to build out like a chair or a table. Like it's not using the tool that's powerful. It's what can you build with it that's useful? And, and you need, when you're hiring, you need to ask, when you're hiring, you need to ask what? Show me a table that we've built. Show me a chair. Because I don't give a, I don't, I don't care about the nails or the hammer. I don't care about the tools. I care about like the final products.

And there was And I think where, that's where the miseducation is, is like people are purchasing tools when they should be purchased. Like they're, they're purchasing the, like the individual features of those tools when they should be purchasing based on their strategy. Right? And I talk about this a lot on LinkedIn is, is like, dude, don't make that fucking impulsive decision because you know you're going to have tech bloat and then you're going to complain you're spending like $88,000 a year on like things that you're only like under utilizing, right? And these, this mindset of show me what you've done before is super powerful once you've gotten the reps in, right? Like if I had a sales question, alright, like I'm texting you like over slack, right? I'm like hey dude, I got, you know, but, and, and I think like it's, it's interesting to think about because what I'm noticing is like a pattern in the market right now is people feel a lot more comfortable if they're cut one, if they're coming as a referral and two, if you can connect them with somebody else that you've worked with. That is the easiest way that I've ever closed a deal. It's like some startup A, like, like, you know, Series A founder had a, had a networking conversation, didn't pitch, just didn't like, you know, he wanted me as a design partner and he was like Wednesday, literally this week, he was like, yeah, like I think that you should have a conversation with this person. Wrote me on LinkedIn, like follow up from a conversation. I, I know this guy, he's looking for somebody to do a 90 day sprint. He might reach out. Here's his LinkedIn boom. Guy wanted to me to accept the connection request on LinkedIn. Texted him, he's like, hey, can you talk today? Literally less than like 2 hours away. Stir it. Like, yeah, I'll move the thing. Let's go. Get on the call. He's like, yeah, I think you're the right guy. By the way, can you connect me with any Series A, Series B founders that are like in the fintech space that I can talk to before we talk again on Fridays? Like let's go.

I got so.

And like I've got you. Like go ahead, like I can sell you something, but I would rather you guys go talk to somebody that has worked with me before. Right? Yeah.

Do you know how I call that? I'm gonna shout out my friend Arthur Castillo. From Storylane. I call that customer led growth. So how are you seeing your, your customers and not only like case studies, because I know case studies are like a thing of the past. Whether.

But. So I don't think so just yet. But. But yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

I don't know. I don't love case studies, but I think when you send a case study to a potential customer, you, when you send a case study to a potential customer, you're putting the burden on them to read and understand your story, which is hard. Which is fundamentally hard. I think when you send an introduction to someone that you've worked, one, they improve their network. Two, the person, like they're trying to solve a problem that someone already solved through you. So they're gonna be much better explaining like, this is me, this is the problem that I had. This is how I hired Spencer, this is how he solved it. And, and these are the results. And the trust is also very different. Like a case study you write yourself and you can be very picky on what you include and what you don't include. And then, but when you're talking with the customer, you can be picky. Like that person is going to be like transparent on what he liked and what he didn't like. So the trust factor of like a customer conversation versus the case studies is very different, I think.

Yeah. Okay, so I take it back that case studies are dead in comparison to this because they are. I, I think like, like, I think the way that you just said it is really, really interesting. It's like a trust vector. And it's like not to be confused with thrust vectoring, with naming, but it's a, it's a tr. It's a. That's a little, that's a little gaming joke that Jorge and I go back. Yeah, I think what you're saying about trust vectoring between like somebody that wants to work with you versus somebody that has worked with you and you removing yourself out of that equation so that they can have an honest conversation about you. I think that is the simple, the simple and the strongest way for somebody to be like, okay, this guy's legit or this, this person is legit. Right?

Yeah. By the way, I think there's a space in the market up for grabs of making that gap as easy as possible of how do you classify, how do you convince and classify the customers that you have and make their agendas available for pre classified customers that you're talking. Pre classified prospects that you're talking to that should talk with your customers and Making that EAS the easiest way possible where I can be like, hey, sprinter, want to call? You're talking to me about your problems. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, you know what? I solved that problem with, like, so and so let me just book you a call with them right now. In a way that it's pre. Agreed. There's a way. There's like a pre negotiation or something happening where you can make that as easy as possible.

I. I think that there's a. There's an. I forget the name of it. I think there's like an application that goes like, it sits on your website and it's like, talk to our customers, like, hear our stories from our customers. And I've seen it, and I don't remember the name of it. And I'm sure when I post it, there's gonna, hopefully there be a comment, tell us what it is. But I've seen it. It's like you go on somebody's website and like, there are case studies and there are little, like, you know, they're the buttons and it says call with like, go talk to this customer. And it's like, you click it and it like, brings you to like, booking or it brings you to like, that person's page. And I think that's super powerful. What I usually do is, you know, like, when people ask for, you know, case studies, I'm like, let me just write you an email. I'll just write you three emails and whoever you want to connect with, like, go connect with them. But of course, like, I'm selective with the people that I, you know, I would like you guys to go talk to because sometimes I don't want a series ago person go talk to the marketing agency that I've. It's just not relevant for them. Right. So I, I do think that it comes down to, like, how good of a seller you are at the end of the day. Right? So, yeah, I mean, it's a good point. Maybe we can, maybe we can build an app for that. So what I, what I, what I usually do though, with my partners, and I don't know if you, you actually already have this, but like, with the partners that I work with, like, other, with other agencies with like, for instance, like fractional salespeople, maybe even like videographers and stuff like this, or even just in general, anybody that I want to book a call with, I will just give them access to my Google calendar. Like, I will send them like, like subscribe to another calendar on Google, and it comes up in a different color. And what I'll do is like if you want me to just like schedule something on your calendar, if you want to just share your calendar back with me then I don't ever have to look but just give me busy, like just show me if it's busy or not. If I don't and then I could just go, you know, it just, it becomes a little bit easier. Not a lot of people want to want to do that. But what I do, I just write the email. I see. I like put everybody in the header and I like remove myself. I was like don't include me in the next conversation. I'll let you guys to have this conversation offline.

Yeah, but you're still putting the burden of acting on that and booking the call on them. But, but yeah, there's definitely like easier ways that this thing can be approached. But nothing it's better than, than a prospect having a conversation with someone that you've already solved the problem for and that fills the pre their classification of the type of company that are the same between your prospect customer.

I agree and I think I would love for you to describe in maybe like four or five sentences or however long you want to go on for it. Whatever. I would love for you to give a piece of advice on any topic. But possibly we can explore the topic of this. If you were to give a piece of advice to any sales organization that is looking to hire somebody like us in the go to marketers sales acceleration space or even try to making you know, trying to make their sales organization more efficient or better or you know, whatever have you. What would that piece of advice be?

That piece of advice would be that first validate what you want to grow before hiring full time. And I think that's where the agency play comes in really good where you can hire an agency, you can validate like some sort of experiment and something that works and then hire someone full time to do that moving forward. And also make sure whoever you hire has put the reps in someone that can show you the results that they gotten that they can show you they can build something that is going to get you results. But also someone that can find specific points are valuable to you. Because I also know of other agencies that use recycle plays over and over for different clients. And I think each client deserves having quality business strategy conversations that could be turned into like data points and go to market orchestration.

That's solid advice. Okay, so I think we, I think we wrap up unless you want to keep going we can keep going you if you want, but yeah, I, I, I've run out of things to talk about on this episode at least.

I, I think we're good. I think we're good. We didn't cover like, we both have like a gaming background, which I think it's interesting given this, that we're not running our own companies and there's some sort of points there that we can cover about like being competitive, defining a solution for things in our games.

Do you believe that the best do you believe that the best sales leaders come from a gaming background?

Then not sure if gaming alone but like competition background. Like there's a lot of, of professional athletes that, that run huge sales organizations and B2B. So I think when you create that muscle memory in your mind around like, I just need to get the reps, I just need to put in the work. I just need to concentrate and get great at my craft and that's what professional at least do and that's what professional gamers do. So I think that just translates great to, to just general work.

Treat it like a game, try to win. Exactly. Are you still playing?

I'm not, dude. I miss it. I miss it a lot. But yeah, with like, I just had like a baby, 6 months old. I, I'm trying to work out as much as possible and just spend as much time with family and I haven't had the time for gaming. I even sold all my consoles.

No, you sold them? Oh, yeah. I, I have been. This is the last week of this year that's like a full work week and I am just so tired. I go to bed and I'm like, like this and I, it's been rough. I, I feel like neither one of us are sleeping and I would love to be playing video games to too, but I always, I always shout out to Adam, Andrew, Jeski and, and Rizwan as well. I try to get them on the games all the time, but God, man, like, so hard. I don't have the mental strength to like open the game and play for 40 minutes. It's, it's a rough one this year. I mean, it's good, it's rough, good.

But you know, yeah, a lot of work. It's, it's a good problem to have in our industry. But yeah, we, we can wrap it up. Thanks for, for the podcast invitation, Spencer. It's always really nice talking with you. If anyone sees this podcast and has any questions, feel free to reach out via LinkedIn. That's where I'm more, I'M more connected. Not only if you want to answer any questions, if you want to brainstorm about, like serve your own GTM motion or anything. I'm always, I'm always down to chat. I'm always down to help. And yeah, I'm always down to buy some go to market engineering topics and Halo and Halo and Call of Duty.

All right, guys, thanks for coming. Thanks for joining. And Jorge, thanks for joining, too.

Take care. Bye.