Leadership vs. Management: Finding Balance in Shifting Times | LeadingLane Podcast | Episode 53

And we were having a conversation about the difference between a manager and a leader. And really the. The big difference, in my opinion, a leader is somebody that is going through and making sure that they're able to show their team, you know, that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Give them direction, cheer them on, give them motivation to. Our manager is more like, I look at, like a micromanaging manager. They're on top of the people. They're trying to only hit the goals. They're not worried about anything else. They're very KPI, very numbers driven and making sure that, you know, it's kind of that corporate America vibe, if you will.

Welcome to the Leading Lane Podcast for Real Estate Pros by Real Estate Pros, with your hosts, Ashley Frederick and Stephen Burch. If you're looking for an honest, authentic and, and raw perspective, you found it.

All right, welcome back to the Leading Lane Podcast. Today we're going to talk about how in business and in leadership, things are constantly changing up and shifting and whatnot. And, you know, to me, it's kind of tough to get a group of people to all get together, all be on the same page, even when you don't even know exactly what that future holds, but you're trying to get everybody to be moving in the same direction. And I had a conversation with one of my agents and Neva Fisher. She's the one that does the rise and thrive in the mornings on Mondays and Wednesdays. And we were having a conversation about the difference between a manager and a leader. And really the big difference, in my opinion, a leader is somebody that is going through and making sure that they're able to show their team that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Give them direction, cheer them on, give them motivation to where manager is. More like, I look at like a micromanaging manager. They're. They're on top of the people. They're trying to only hit the goals. They're not worried about anything else. They're very KPI, very numbers driven and making sure that, you know, kind of that corporate America vibe, if you will. So I'm going to. I'm going to give this in perspective. And Ashley, I know that you're going through some different changes as far as the software and different things we're implementing and whatnot too. It just so happens that all that's happening at one freaking time. I mean, we're going from DocuSign transaction rooms over to Skyslope, where we personally are going from a state form back to our Local form. But we're waiting for our wonderful association to get everything over to Skyslope. Then we have obviously the NER lawsuit and those different changes that we are having to navigate through. Then we have raise that we're going to. Right. So we have all of these different things that we are trying to change and shift. What is your perspective or how do you get your team to be able to follow you as a leader? Because I don't think that you're a manager. I think you're a true leader. How do you get them to follow you and be able to trust your vision?

Yeah, I think it's a matter of communication and I think it's a matter of being open. And I think that when they understand that it's forming the greater good and that it will make their lives easier in the long run. Normally a pretty easy buy in. But for us, you know, we. We started in dot loop, we started to go to docusign rooms. So we, we spent like half of last year in that switch. Then figured out that we were going to Skyslope. So we stopped that integration, went back to the dot loop. Now we're gonna make another integration. And I think the other way that it is easier to lead is that were just always up front. So like the minute that the Skyslope decision was made, like the team knew, right? So they knew like, hey, we're going to be changing in some fashion. And then we're also very. We're very lucky in that most of our agents will come in for all of our training. It's very rare that someone will miss a training. But you know, our trainings are 9 o' clock on Mondays or Wednesdays and they are specific for that. Right. So like last week was part of our implementation or rollout. So like it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday they were here. And I think it again it. They understand how intricate the contracts are, you know, and I think in our situation, I was on one of the Skyslope calls and they were like, and then there's Wisconsin who doesn't work with us at all. And you have to enter all your forms yourself. And I was like, of course they were going to say Wisconsin. So there's that extra layer like. Right. That falls on our manager and our trainer to take care of those types of things. I think it's a matter of me not showing any of Buck, if you will. So if I went into an office meeting and I was like, wow, you know, they're gonna make us change our integration systems again. And I think if I had that attitude right away, it would be a lot harder for them to follow suit. Where I approached it as like, super exciting. This should make your jobs easier. This also should make our admins jobs easier. It'll cut some costs for us for other things that we're spending. I guess for me, like, it wasn't really a complaint or everyone was like, okay, great, just make sure we know what we're doing well.

And I think also you said it like, you have to be able to show the emotion and the positivity. And I think that if you were to walk in there and, you know, guns blazing and everything's on fire and, you know, the sky is falling, that's what they're going to adapt to. And also too, I think that, like, your track record, your track record of different challenges that have happened in business and in transactions and everything else too, if you didn't have that track record and your team didn't know that you really do have the best interest at mind for them, then they wouldn't have the buy in. Like, if you were brand new, walking to a team and saying, I'm going to change all of this heels in the, in the ground really, really quickly. But when I was talking to Neva the other day, I said, look, like, when have we ever let you guys go out there and just flounder, right? Never. Because if you're floundering, I have to listen to 30 some of y' all bitch about it and let's be cruel.

Thank you.

I don't want to listen to it, right? So my goal is actually how can I reduce the, the, the turbulence as much as I can up front and take some of that burden from them. And they don't know how much actual work we have put into this before we're rolling out to them. And it's still not perfect.

Right?

So. And when I was telling Neva this, I was like, look, look at the NAR lawsuit. Look at the way there are people still in our market that have no flipping clue of what is going on. And if we did not start this conversation two years ago and start getting things going. And yes, there were things that shifted a little bit or we didn't really foresee, but none of us did. We're not directly there in that, that courtroom, you know, you guys would be sitting here sitting ducks. But we are 10 steps, 20 steps ahead of most people in our, in our market. And that's the way I think a leader should be looking at, is being innovative, looking at you Know where the James Dwigan says it all the time. Looking where the puck is going to be at versus trying to just hit the puck where it's at now. So trying to. You forecast those types of different things and being vulnerable with your team, is it frustrating for, for us to sit here and roll all of these out and these changes all at the same time and at the end of the year and then you have your dues on top of it? It is so frustrating. I get it. But if I'm frustrated, that means I know that you're frustrated too. Let's work this together. And I think you take it as a team approach and you really get the people to buy in. And also with that being said, like, I'm a firm believer of having to have that vulnerability and I think a lot of people are seeing this now. With our team, when we did the business planning a few weeks back, like I legit, I gave them the big picture overview. I was sitting down and we're having a conversation and I started crying. I got really emotional. I was like, this, this stuff is real. We have real life people on the back end. We have personal things that are going on that we're trying to prepare the worst case scenarios right now. And if we can't get you guys to buy in and do the simplest of things right now, when and if this happens later on in the future, how in the world are you guys going to be able to survive if we're not here? If the people, the key players are not here to take care of the business because they have to take care of personal, like what's going to happen. And I think that being able to showcase that I have this worrying. We are preparing for it. We're making sure that their business is not going to be interrupted or we're trying to eliminate as many interruptions as we possibly can. And we'd much rather go through some of this pain and agony now to prepare for the future so that we all can benefit from it still. So I think vulnerability is huge and it took me a long time to realize that you have to, you have to be able to showcase that and be the open and honest versus trying to have this protection. And it's almost like I was trying to protect my team too much. And so I didn't tell them really the backend things at all. So I made it look easy. And in reality I'm over here like, holy shit, this is a lot of things going on. And they had no clue at all what was going on. On the back end that I was experiencing. So I think you have to showcase that.

I think that that's hard, right? Like, as a leader, most people will say, like, man, like, you're so calm. Like, you're calm all the time. Like, shit'll hit the fan and you'll just be like, okay, like, we'll get it. And I. I don't know. Like, that just happens over time. I think because you go through so many shit shows that, like, it doesn't really pay to get that upset. You know, end of the day, sometimes it's kind of like we talk about. But, I mean, it is, like, lonely, if you will. Like, when you're sitting there, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I making the right changes? Are the right people in place? Like, that can eat away sometimes. But, yeah, there are some hard days. And, you know, it's a matter of what we choose to share. And I. I also think sometimes I'll choose to share things not at that point, because I. I don't want to be at a vulnerable state, if you will. Like, I need to comprehend it first, and then I want to be able to address it in a more calm manner. But if you look back at the last five years, too, I think. I think it's important to talk about history with new agents. So they're coming in and, like, to them, it might seem like, oh, like they changed their systems or it's not that bad. And I guess I just go back to when we opened our business and Covid happened, like, two weeks later. And if you try to think about, like, the storms that we've actually weathered over the last five years, it is insane. I mean, Covid not being able to show properties wearing masks now. Video tour, virtual tours. You know, you think of how quickly real estate has changed, and you look at all those storms you've weathered. So it was Covid and then it was, you know, what 4%, 3%, 2% interest rates. I mean, like, I would always joke that, like, I think one day, like, I showed, like, 30 houses and I didn't have time to pee, right? Like, that was a whole nother stress factor. And writing 15 offers, right? Like, that wasn't normal. But I think we have to make sure that those stories don't get lost in the shuffle, because it does make us who we are today. It does make us stronger. And then you get to the NAR settlement, which is a whole another two years of waiting before we could actually implement it. And then I think you could agree with me that even how we thought we were going to implement it and what we actually did are two very different things. Right. Like we started with a plan and then we started realizing once those guidelines were ran a little bit more like that actually is probably illegal and we can't do it that way. And I think just being that I knew that no one else in the market was going to do and you know, it was hard for me because you know, that was people's livelihoods and if I make a change and the rest of the market kicks us out because they won't work with the change. And that was a really, really hard decision to make. But you know, we talked through it and you know, thankful for James for stepping on a call and it's hard to lead from the front. And here we are and you know, we're still number one in the market. We've got almost 25% of the market share. And those are risks that everyone went along with what I told them to do. And once they understood it, it's fun for me to have them tell me that they go places and they listen to other agents and they try to explain to the agents why we do it that way. And like the other agents are just blank, like literally blank on their face. And to me that that's a success in itself and that my agents are that confident in talking to 20 year agents and they're a three year agent.

Absolutely. Well, and I think maybe you'll disagree with this or agree. Like those things when we first got into business, like really looking back, they're minute, like don't give me. There's the milestones of yes, the pandemic and all of these things. Like I'm not talking about those, but I'm talking about like for me, when something didn't go my way, I'd be a hothead really quickly and I wanted to react and now looking I'm like, that really wasn't that big of a deal. And then there's these bigger things that are happening of, you know, transitioning to a new platform. Like yeah, it's kind of, I mean it's a lot. It's a big undertaking. That's a huge shift to get 30 some people over onto to a whole new platform. But really it's not that big of a deal. And I think what has happened in this evolution is we've experienced so much so therefore like our bandwidth because we can offload it off of us, we have more bandwidth to be able to comprehend, understand and reflect and dissect what's truly going on. And we don't have to have that immediate reaction, at least like what I used to. I mean, we had a situation with an agent and they, they spat off really quickly. And I said, you know, when I was an agent, I probably would have been in their shoes. So let's look at it from a little bit different. Like, I'm a little bit more calm with it. Also, with that being said, it's because I don't have everything. I have a team that, you know, works underneath me as far as. So I don't have to focus on everything anymore. But when I had all of that workload, I would react totally different to, to this agent than what I have now. Like, let's understand, let's have, understand where we are and understand your perspective, and then let's meet in the middle of where each other are coming from to make sure that we have that common ground. But yeah, I think it's important to, to reflect. I think it's important to educate your, your team and the new agents that are coming through and being vulnerable, but also taking that time for yourself to truly digest what is happening so that your reaction does not come, create a chain reaction to the other people that you are leading.

Well, and I think the other thing is, I don't think that leadership happens on day one, right? I mean, like, sure, you're the boss and you're in charge, but like, I just don't think that, like, true leadership happens until you've weathered some of those storms and until you have been in some shitty situations. But then I also think it's through surrounding yourself with other people, right? So, like, you and masterminds and conferences, I think that that helps in the fact that you're not alone, right? So a lot of times you feel like, is this, like, does this happen to other people? And then you go to these conferences and you're like, okay, it's not just me, you know, or you get to hear of maybe how someone else handled it. Or a lot of times I'll go places and I'll be like, okay, well, I definitely don't have it as they do. Or I'll listen to stories and I'll be like, you did what? Or like, you said what? Like that? No, like, that's not how you talk to people, but it comes with time. So I think that's the other thing for people to remember is that, like, you can manage right away. It's really easy to come into a position and tell people what to do and Give them their parameters. But I think like true leadership has to come through self development, self growth. I mean we know like books are a big thing. It kind of is a wake up call as far as maybe things that you are taking too seriously or you know, things you need to change. Like I've talked about, you know, when I come in the office and you know, just trying to be more engaged with people instead of I'm so focused on getting to work right away. But it's just those little things that leadership shows you or like when somebody is doing something wrong, the ability just be like, hey, like just so you know, like we shouldn't do it that way. And it's just those like, you know, it took like 30 seconds to correct someone. But leadership in that you didn't put them on a platform, you didn't throw them out, you know, for the shooting range, you just took them aside and helped them through it. And I think it even comes to leadership outside of your own organization. Right. Like, I think that's how you can gain the trust if you will too. So like if people see you outside of the company and either at city planning meetings or just for things that aren't right, I think you get respect that way too. And that they see like, oh, like that wasn't right. But like instead of everyone being quiet like she said something, you know, or calling other agents, which you know, I used to be probably when I first started, like if they made a mistake, I was like, no, not my problem. Well, right. Like as I, as I learn, like I can't make the industry better if I keep on letting those things slide. So then it's a matter of picking up the phone, be like, hey, no you're not. I know I'm not your broker, but you can't do those things. You might want to talk to your broker about it. And I mean as I talk about like that was one way of me strategically trying to get Jenny was, you know, being, because I knew she was a great agent and you know, she's down the training and be like, hey, you can't do that, can't do this, can't do that. And then it right becomes relevant to them that maybe they're not in the right spot. So yeah, I think it's just a matter of a all encompassing type of leadership and it comes with time and there will always be ebbs and flows and you don't always make all the right decisions. But I think when people know your heart is in the right place and they'll continue to fall.

Well, don't you think too that like doing those different things, not just within your, your industry, outside of or your organization, you're doing outside. Really what that also is doing is you're building your confidence too. You know, like, that's really where, you know, you're the more competent, the more confident that you're going to be. And so it's, it's kind of funny that we're having this conversation that, you know, we always start on one topic that we're thinking we're gonna go one direction, then we kind of end up a little bit somewhere else. Um, I went to. Went to watch the, the game this weekend, and there was somebody in there that. It was after our Christmas party and never met this woman in, in my life whatsoever. Right. But she's around a group of people and she sat down next to me and we started just kind of chit chatting a little bit. And she goes, I can tell you're extremely important. And I kind of chuckled, like, here I am in my chief's, like, hoodie, like after Christmas party, like, maybe a little rough, right? Like, and I was like, I'm sorry, what? She was like, you have like a CEO mentality about you. And I was like, well, that's odd. Like, okay, thank you. And she was like, so what do you do? And I was like, well, don't behold me. I am. I'm the CEO of a couple companies. And so we were talking about the Christmas party and so pulled up the picture and, and I'm in the middle of the photo. She was like, see, I knew you were important. Like, she was like, you just have this poise about you. And I was just. It's funny because, like, I remember, you know, before I started working with Rebecca Mountain, one of the things that I wrote down that I wanted was to be able to walk into a room, have the confidence, have the, you know, people to be able to know, like, demand the room. And like, now it's happening on a hangover day and, you know, people are noticed, those types of things. But with time, I do believe comes those things and that confidence is built up. And I used to think that you would have to go into a room and, you know, demand it in a manager way. But no, you demand it in a leadership way. And it's natural and it's really not anything that you have to necessarily do other than being yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a lot of what they talk about, right? Is like being able to command a Room by just being there. We kind of joke here that, like, if things don't necessarily go the way that someone likes or whatnot, they're like, we should just call Ashley.

Yeah.

And right. Like, over those times, like I told you the other day, like, through 12 years of business, like, I've made relationships that when something doesn't seem right, like, I'm skipping whoever told me that and I'm calling somebody else. So we had a situation with joke, but not a joke, but we had a situation. A buyer was writing, like, bad checks. It's just not a qualified buyer. She's writing cash offers on, like, an insufficient. It's just not good. Happened three times. But. Right. Like, all that is confidential information. So, like, no agents. My office would know that. But then our office manager pieced it together because she sees them. So I was like, well, I think we should call the cops, because, like, this is a huge thing. Like, we almost bumped someone from a trend, like, from an offer. Like, could you imagine if they would have been bumped and that was an invalid buyer? So they called dispatch, and dispatch was like, yeah, I mean, it's not a crime. Like, too bad she wrote a bad check. You know, it is what it is. And I was like. And I just emailed the police chief and I was like, hey. So we called dispatch. I don't really think that this is the right answer. I thought that I should just let you know. And then they put a. They called, they had a detective call me, and then I gave them more information, and they're like, oh, my gosh, that's definitely a huge violation. Like, we're on this or whatnot. But everyone was joking. They're like, leave it up to Ashley to skip whoever. And I was just like, I mean, you have to call people to get it done. Like, it's a major situation. Somebody didn't want to answer or. Or take it seriously. And it is a serious situation. So you keep on reaching out to the right people.

But that. I think that that goes to show right there. I mean, you don't take things just at face value. Right. Like, you. You're not going to just say, okay, just because somebody told you no. Right. Or gave you.

Best thing is I, I. People say, like, I think someone asked me, like, what's the favorite thing about you? And I was like, I can't take no for an answer.

Yeah.

I mean, like, when someone tells me no, I'm like, well, I'll just find the next person.

And I think that's where you. You have the critical thinking, but also with that, you followed your gut, you follow your instincts, your morals. Like you have a compass, an internal compass. It wasn't right and you knew that. And so you were making sure that for you to take care of the situation, you had to go to somebody else that is actually going to listen and have that same alignment of moral compass that you have so that you can handle the situation.

Right. And then I think for the agents, like, they're like, oh, wow, she didn't just take it for face value. Like now something's going to happen and it will. Our sellers will be protected in the future. So it goes back to the thing like just credibility and taking everyone off, you know, try to help people along as much as they. They need it. And I think that's the other thing is for me, I would really struggle in like a. Me personally, like in a virtual situation in being a leader, because I just think like having not having like face to face conversations or like hearing these side stories, like, I just happen to hear them sometimes because I'm in the office. And I think that there's just a different, different type of leadership that would have to come in to really make that happen for me. I'm just, I'm glad we have brick and mortar and I'm glad that we have people that are here.

I totally, I mean, watching body language, demeanor, actions. Right. There's so much more than just the verbal or written communication.

There itself is misconstrued. How many times?

Right. Totally agree. Well, I think you're a fantastic leader.

I think you're a great leader.

Thank you. I wasn't fishing for a compliment. Thank you. But I, I think to end this is that understanding the difference between leadership and management and empowering others, there's really great things that you can do without having to take so many crazy actions to try to be somebody. So it's being true to yourself and being open with your team and honest and vulnerable. And it is the ability of critical thinking to make sure that you're working in the best interest of the entirety of your organization that you're leading. Good combo.

Great topic, Stephen.

All right, well, thanks for listening. Please tune in if you have a topic that you'd like for us to discuss or you'd like to be a guest on our podcast. Please don't hesitate to reach out if.

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