Stories of Hope & Healing: Ashlee Rowland’s Journey from Chronic Illness to Vitality

Welcome to Integrative Medicine with Dr. Leland Stillman, the podcast where we explore the best of East and West, old and new, conventional and unconventional, in search of answers to medicine's toughest cases and most difficult problems. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Diagnostics and therapeutics discussed on this podcast may or may not be right for you, so talk to a qualified practitioner before taking action based on what you learn here. If you'd like to become a patient at my practice, go to stillmanmd.com to schedule a complimentary discovery call. Thank you for listening and welcome to today's episode. Hello everyone. Dr. Stillman here. I am delighted to come to you again with another Stories of Hope, Stories of Healing episode. I am joined today by Ashley Rowland, who runs an amazing Instagram channel you should all follow, @simplistic. She can spell that since I don't know if I can off the top of my head. It's got kind of a funny West Coast spelling. Ashley, thank you for joining me today.

Thanks, Dr. Stillman.

You like that intro?

Yep. That was amazing.

How do you spell your Instagram handle?

Yeah, so it's the word simple with no E and then holistic. So it's simple holistic technically, but it's kind of like a little play on words for like simplistic.

It's a West Coast thing. I've realized that East Coast brands and people don't, they don't like mess with the English language. And on the West Coast, it's like, our company is Google. Our company is Pixel. Our company is this other weird word we just made up. And on the East Coast, people are like, what is— why did you make that up? That's so weird. Why didn't you just take interesting, cool, classy words and put them together like North Face or I don't know.

So—

It's funny, it's— I didn't realize that until recently about like branding, but I was looking at all these West Coast brands and I was like, you all have these weird things.

It's trendy, we're West Coasters, okay?

I know you people, it's weird. Anyway, all right, so Ashley, I like to start by asking everyone who they are and where they're from.

I am Ashley, as Dr. Stillman said, and I am a mom of two boys and my husband is Tommy and We are adventurers. We love to be outside, educate on health, and we are from Hawaii. I mean, we don't— we're not like from Hawaii, but that's where we are and where we love to be. And we're originally from the North. I'm from Alaska, but now Hawaii.

Amazing. So how did you first get into health and wellness?

When I was 14, I got diagnosed with a bunch of things: rheumatoid arthritis, celiac, Hashimoto's, PCOS, bone spurs, Osgood-Schlatter's. I mean, the list goes on. Had horrible acne, things like that. And that is not when I learned about health. That's when I learned that I was sick. But I knew absolutely nothing about health or wellness at that point. I didn't know there was an alternative to how I was living. I just knew that I was sick and I knew that I didn't feel well. But There was no, you know, there was no way out of that for me. It wasn't like, oh, if I start eating healthier, if I do this, like that wasn't an option in my mind. I was raised extremely standard American diet. We wouldn't even eat bananas or like apples, like nothing, like canned spinach, which I called garbage that I was forced to eat. And single mom, Tostino's pizzas, Lunchables, Hamburger Helper with no meat. Kind of thing. So when I was 18, I moved to Hawaii with a family.

Can we actually unpack that first 4 years?

Yes. Yeah.

Let's unpack that. Here's where I want to go with this. You came into the medical system with these diagnoses. Your mother took you to, I'm sure, doctors, or maybe she didn't. And they said, you've got this, that, and the other diagnosis. Here's the treatment, drugs, surgery. And really it was just, you were never shown a different way. It was like a third door that didn't exist.

Fair? Yep. Yeah. That's, that's kind of exactly how I'll, I mean, that's a really great way to explain it. Cause I don't know how to explain it to people. I just say I got all these diagnoses and that was it. I mean, it's like, that's it. And it wasn't even like, like, I don't even honestly remember them offering medications or anything. It was just like, this is what you have. They did push surgery a ton. To remove the bone spurs because I had— yeah, the bone spurs were cutting open the muscle on my hip. I was dancing, you know.

Oh my gosh, that's very extreme.

Yeah, it was like 10 out of 10 pain as like a 14, 16-year-old, like not good. I was a dancer, did cheer, softball, very athletic, you know, very—

for the 2 months of warm weather that you have in Alaska.

Exactly. And no, it was like all indoor cheer, you know, at 6 in the morning it was pitch black and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I just remember getting these diagnoses. I remember going in— a very specific memory I have is going in because they thought I might have had breast cancer when I was 15. So they found, you know, like, I'm feeling my breasts and I'm like, there's all these lumps. And everyone would always say, you're a hypochondriac, because I was a seeker, but I didn't know what I was seeking, but I knew something was wrong. Okay.

Yes.

And so I remember finding all these masses and people like, oh, it's just because you're on your period or whatever. And I'm like, well, that seems horrible. So I went in and they were scheduling me to biopsy this mass and all this crazy stuff. I just remember being like, what is happening to me? And so yeah, for those 4 years, really getting these— getting the diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis as a like 14, 16-year-old, that's crazy. And, and with no way out. So then, you know, I obviously learned, I guess, from adults around me, I or something like, oh, I need to eat salads. So I'd put like iceberg lettuce with like Hidden Valley Ranch on it or something horrible. And I would start making smoothies, which remember I told you I didn't even eat real bananas. So it was like a packet from Walmart of like that powdered banana, you know?

Wow.

With milk that I don't know, I don't know what kind of milk it was.

Listen, baby steps.

Baby steps.

So that was nice. So hang on, question. What was it like emotionally for you at 14 to have all this thrust on you? Were you like, oh, this is normal, or was it distressing?

I definitely did not think it was normal ever. But like you said, it was that third door that wasn't there. And I was an extremely high achiever. Okay. So like, even though I was naughty as a kid, I had like a probation officer, just like, yeah, I, I was on varsity cheer as a freshman. I was in And, you know, I was very good academically. I'm very smart. I was offered to skip grades, all these things. So I'm a high achiever, but I was starting to be limited by my body. And I was young. And so I was, then I'm on birth control because of the acne that I had was so bad. And I was very athletic and I was a flyer in cheer and I was a gymnast, but then my body started to limit me and I no longer could jump as high as I used to. And I was spraining my ankle like level 3 sprains, and then it would heal, and then sprain, and like just recurrently ill, recurrently sick within my body, you know. Like, I didn't, I didn't ever get sick, and it's probably because I was like, like taking steroids or something, like meaning, meaning hormone suppressing things, not like literally steroids, but my body was degrading, and I was bone on bone as a 14-year-old, like, like in my hip, and, um Yeah, I just felt limited, but I had no way out. And I started noticing my athletic performance kind of going down, and I started noticing that I was being limited, and I was having to be quote-unquote on the bench a lot because I was injured. And I was— but there was no, there was no alternative. And so I think it was when I was 17. It was when I was 17, my family moved my senior year. And my AP Bio teacher, she was like, now then I was like, she's like a total hippie weirdo. She was like playing the like, uh, they burn paradise and put up a parking lot, like they're— she's playing that in the classroom. And so I was open to this world and she would talk about like, yeah, you know, this is a hole in my apple from a worm and like, I'd rather have that in there, you know, just this stuff. And she was talking about organic eating. And so then I became aware I became aware there was no awareness before then. And so then I started the journey. I started ordering from this thing. I don't even know if it exists called NatureBox. I don't even know if I— how I remember the name of that, but it was like this subscription of healthy— I don't know if I looked at it, it's probably not healthy things, but stopped eating fast food. New Year's resolution, no soda.

Try not to mention products. I don't want to get any defamation lawsuits.

Oh yeah, that's the name of it. But yeah, I became aware. I remember my aunt was also very natural and I thought she was so weird. I like hated going to her house because she'd make us eat like the worst stuff. And by the worst stuff, I mean, I mean like healthy food, fruit and oatmeal. And it was horrible. And so she was like, okay, I said, what are two ingredients that I should look for at the store? And she said high fructose corn syrup and partially hydrogenated oils. So when I started going to the grocery store, I cut out high fructose corn syrup and partially hydrogenated oils, and basically 90% of my diet was eliminated. And I started replacing that with fruit and things like that.

Yeah, I was going to ask you, what did you pivot to? And did you have a moment in the grocery store of, oh my gosh, everything I eat is poisoning me?

Yeah.

Why has no one told me?

Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly what happened. And I, in like typical Ashley fashion, very like evangelistic in anything I do to my whole family, friends, anyone in the grocery store. They like go to grab something and I'm like, that is killing you. That is poison.

And these people are like, oh my gosh, how to win friends and influence people with Ashley Rowland.

Exactly. So yeah, I'm like, those Doritos are going to kill you. You know, that was like the mentality that I took on and it was just very black and white. I'm a pretty black and white person. And so it has a substance in it that is harmful for our health. It's going to kill you. And so I was faced now with I can't eat anything anymore. I can't eat with my family. All they eat is Hamburger Helper. And what am I gonna replace it with? So I started, you know, buying cheese sticks and fruit and, you know, meat without any nitrates. And it, you know, it started and I was eating better foods and beginning to feel a bit better, you know, because when you go from completely standard American to adding in fresh fruit into your diet, that's a big change for people. So then when I was 17, I, uh, yeah, I moved back to Alaska by myself. I lived in a fifth wheel on a piece of property just by myself.

And pause there, hang on. We thought you were— I thought you were in Alaska. You went from Alaska to where?

Okay, sorry. So 17, I moved my senior year to Colorado. That's where I met the hippie teacher that introduced me to Roger That.

That's a very hippie teacher location. Colorado.

Colorado. She was amazing. I admire her. So I lasted there for 6 months. And then basically when I was old enough, I mean, I wasn't technically 18 yet, but I was old enough in my mind to move away. I moved back to Alaska, lived in a trailer on a piece of land in Alaska, like typical Alaska girl. Okay. And from there was given the opportunity. At this point, I was full-blown committed to healing my body, but I didn't know what that meant. So from there, I went and spent a month in Hawaii with a family. I helped nanny them. You know who this family is? Ali?

Yes. And how did you get connected with her?

I actually worked helping Ali with her kids from the time I was probably 12. So I've known Ali for a really long time.

Got it.

Yeah, she had Hashimoto's and they were very healthy and organic and I thought psychotic. So moved to Hawaii with this family and they ate seaweed and chia seeds and the worst possible foods you could ever imagine in my mind. I'm like, this is horrible. I'm going to go eat my Thin Mints that are in my suitcase. Goodbye. So I brought my own stash of food because I knew how they ate. Of my gummy bears and I would go to the store and like buy my own things. And in that month of eating how they ate, being at the ocean, being in the light, my body truly and honestly healed unintentionally. And I was, I just didn't even know what to think about it. So my time there was done. I moved back to Alaska.

Hold on. Yeah, we gotta unpack this. So there, there was, there must have been a series of moments as your health started to improve. How long was, how long were you on, what was it, Kauai?

Yeah, I was only there this for that first, for that first period. We'll talk about the other in a minute. I was only there for a month.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so there must have been a series of moments where you really thought, oh my gosh, something profound is happening. Tell us about those moments. Think back to those moments. And also, if you would, you know, we've talked already about what was afflicting you, but I want to know like the play-by-play, like I saw my skin improve, my hip pain went away. Like, what was the— give us the full experience.

Okay. I'm going to give you guys the full experience and you're going to be blown away. And this is why I am such an extremist with my health now. And it doesn't stress me out. People are like, doesn't it stress you out? And I'm like, no, because it's a value of mine. And so health is a value of mine, which is why it doesn't stress me out to tell you all the things that you're going to learn in this podcast. So I'm in Hawaii and, you know, I'm just frying. I'm like frying like a piece of bacon on a pan because I'm so filled with PUFAs, you know, and nothing, no antioxidants probably in my body.

You mean sunburning?

Yeah, because I'm from Alaska and I'm just frying in the sun. So The first thing I noticed, you know, is as my time went on there, I stopped burning as much. And I've always had the skin type where when I burn, I'll tan, you know, but I stopped burning initially. And so I noticed that. I noticed that— so when I first arrived there, I could walk, but I, I would walk with pain. Like, like I'm telling you, my— those bone spurs were cutting open my muscle in my hip, and so it was excruciating. They, they wanted me to be on have surgery and they wanted me to be in wheelchair and stuff like that, and I'm like, no. But also I'm so stubborn that I'm not gonna take pain meds, and also I'm so stubborn that I'm not gonna do anything you say, so I'm just gonna be in pain because I didn't know there was an alternative. So being here, I remember day 1, I, you know, went on a walk and it was hurt, it hurt, it hurt. I was limping. I remember by day 7 feeling this, and it's very profound and very vivid in my memory, so like I said, it's why why it's, it's such a big part of me, because on day 7 I was on a walk and I had extremely diminished pain.

Um, maybe like 3 out of 10 at this point compared to a 10 out of 10.

I was at a 10 out of 10. Okay. Even like when I was sleeping, I'd have to have heating packs on and stuff because it was really painful.

So this is a 70% improvement in one week?

In one week. And you know, I was eating how they ate. With my thin mint cookies at night. And then I was in that ocean air. I was in a very grounded environment, all of which I knew nothing about at that point. Okay, so I didn't know anything about these things. I wasn't going outside to get morning light on purpose. I wasn't putting my feet on the earth to ground on purpose. I wasn't eating, you know, the smoothie that Ali made me and eating like sustainable, locally caught fish for any reason other than that's what they told me to do, and so I was doing it. As the time went on, when I left Hawaii, I was in 0 out of 10 pain. This was in 1 month. I had no more acne in 1 month. No more.

How bad was the acne?

Oh, it was horrible. I had horrible cystic acne all over my face. Like, I had bangs to cover the acne. I wore makeup to cover the acne, and it was the painful— it was on my back. You know, that painful acne, and I was put on Accutane, you know, good old Accutane. They were like, this is gonna bleach your pillow, but you should put this on your skin, kind of thing. And I was on birth control, all of that. So before I came to Hawaii, I wasn't on birth control anymore. I was like, this kind of doesn't make sense, even though I didn't really know why I thought that, just didn't make sense. So I left Hawaii, no more pain, no more acne, tan. Um, digestion like felt great. I was always bloated, but I didn't know I was always bloated. So I was like, what is this? Um, you know, this is, this is amazing. So I leave Hawaii, go back to Alaska, and I'm like, there's no way that this weird organic food did this to me. Like it's because I was in the sun. Like everyone knows the sun's good for them or because I was in the ocean. So I remember going to the store and buying a bag of Doritos and buying something else. I don't specifically remember and having a visceral response immediately. Like this is the last time that I will ever consume quote unquote food like this. And that was when I was 18 years old and I still, I'm 29, To this day, I have never ever, and when I said I'm an extremist, I mean it, like eaten anything like that ever again. And I went in for my appointment for my hip at the hospital in Alaska, or the clinic in Alaska, and they re-X-rayed. I didn't have bone spurs anymore, one month. And these were, I have the X-rays, they were shark teeth. There were 3 shark teeth like spurs that were sharp on my hip. They weren't completely gone, but they were rounded. They were starting to decalcify, and they were so shrunken. And I remember this— I remember the nurse looking at me and screaming at me as a kid and saying, why did you get surgery somewhere else? You could have gotten it free here. Because if you see me, I don't look Alaska Native, but I'm Alaska Native, so we get free medical in Alaska. So that's why I would have been free there. So she was screaming at me that how dumb I was that I got this surgery somewhere else. It could have been free here. Da da da da da. And I'm like, I did not get surgery. And she's like, yes, you did. I'm like, I did not get surgery. I just went to Hawaii and ate organic food. I just like flat out told her. And she's just like, you're a psycho.

I love it. This is so good.

And at that point I was like, she was like, this makes no sense. And like, we— with your mom, we talked about this, and I just remember looking at her and saying, you're dumb. I just flat out said, you're dumb and I don't need your care anymore. And I left. And so that's me, if you know Ashley. And, um, yeah, from there I just graduated. And at this point, I'm very, very sold on organic. At this point, I, I I still don't really know what to eat because it's a brand new concept to me. I still don't even know what a macro is, a calorie is. I don't know any of this. I just know that I am never eating this junk again because I feel amazing. And I looked healthy and I graduated high school and everyone was like, number one, 'cause I like left Alaska, just left, like nobody knew where I went. And then I come back and I look all healthy and I'm happy and I'm vibrant. I'm not puffy and swollen and I'm eating all organic while they're all eating pizza that's delivered for the graduation. I brought my own lunch and people think I'm crazy and I don't care. And so I graduate and I move back to Hawaii and to work with that family more and I enroll in my nutrition program. And that's the first, it's like a holistic nutrition program and I learn about a calorie and I'm like, "Wow, a calorie, that's so cool. There's calories in food." And this is when I'm 18, and I literally went from not knowing anything to I go into this holistic program and I learn about calories. Then I learn like, oh wow, there's a different amount of calories, you know, in fat and in carbs and in protein. And I'm taking all this in and I'm learning about diseases and I'm learning about inflammation and I'm learning about superfoods, you know, food of the day, blah blah blah. And I'm learning about all this incredible information and I'm soaking it in like a sponge. And that's a 2-year program. And I love it, and I'm continuing to heal. And at the same time, I'm rediscovering, you know, like, I'm recently saved, like, as a Christian. And so there's like this braid of me and Christ and health very tightly woven, and that's why it's not stressful for me. That's why it's a value. That's why I go on, you know, a trip like we went to Punta Mita, and I'm going into the town and finding raw milk because it just matters to me and it's not stressful to me and it's something I'm very passionate about. And I think that there's no such thing as junk food. Like, there's junk and there's food. And we choose to nourish our kids and our family and I choose to nourish my body with food. And then, you know, obviously I start learning about the sun and then I start learning about grounding And so the first things I ever learned about, before supplements, before minerals, before anything, was sun and light and food. And those are the things that we need the most. And that's what I saw heal my body. I started sharing with people. I started an Instagram account, you know, started sharing that kind of stuff. And just really simple. And that's like, that's not what I didn't even intentionally name my brand that back then, like Simple Hawaiian Health. Realistic, but it has really grown straight into that. It was like this divine naming of it because now it couldn't make any more sense if you know what I'm all about. And then let's see, I'm in Hawaii, I'm loving life, I'm tan, I'm eating fruit. Um, I meet Tommy, my husband now, and then we move to— I teach him all about all the healthy things. He's from South Dakota, you know, they lived on— their family runs a conventionally, like, factory— not factory— well, yeah, kind of factory farm cattle operation, like GMO soy, corn, stuff like that. Like, I remember going visiting the first time and being like, oh my gosh, Rachel Carson's books are coming to life. It's like my worst nightmare. Like, I thought this was fake. And, you know, like, I just couldn't believe it. They're spraying the mosquitoes, like, in the truck, and I see all the corn on one side and the soy on one side, and I'm just like It's all this stuff I've just learned about. And I'm— I go to his house and I remember the first time I went and visited, he like went to a little health food store and like tried to buy groceries for me because he's like, "She's not gonna eat anything in my house." And his family thought I was crazy. And now it's so fun to see the journey when I go— when I go to his parents' house. Every single thing there I can eat because I've educated them and it makes sense and they want to feel good and I love it. It's super cool. So we got married in Spokane. We moved to Spokane, and, um, then I didn't have the salt and the sun.

Why did you move to Spokane?

Because my husband forced me to. He wanted to go to Moody Bible Institute, and so we both went to Moody Bible Institute. I lasted there for 6 months before I dropped out, and I was doing my nutrition program at the same time. And so we're in Spokane, which, if you don't know, is one the cloudiest places on Earth, apparently. Um, and I start getting sick again, and I don't know why. I'm eating 150% organic.

What year is this?

This is 2016.

Got it.

So 2015, I live in Hawaii. So 2014, I I'm very sick. And then I graduate, and then I start learning about health. 2015, super healthy, super amazing, like basically coming from standard American to eating food that is actual food. You're gonna feel better. Then moved to Spokane, and then 2016 we get married and no longer have, you know, the basics, the sun, the sea, the whatever. And I start getting sick again and I'm eating 100% organic and I'm, what's going on? And I have, then I have, you know, Hashimoto's again, PCOS. I have, I'm diagnosed infertility. What the heck? I eat 100% organic and I, even my mattress is organic and my clothes are organic and I wear blue light blockers and what is going on? And, um, we weren't able to have our first little one for 5 years, so we dealt with infertility for 5 years. And if you look back, let's like get some photos or something. I was extremely swollen and puffy, extremely swollen puppy, typical hypothyroid, PCOS, cysts all over, um, 2 episodes where, you know, the cyst ruptured, so then I like passing out on the floor of a You know, gas station, disgusting. And I'm like, wow, I'm never gonna have kids, and this doesn't make any sense. And all of this is being documented on my Instagram. That's like kind of when my, my Instagram started before this. And I'm always trying to figure it out, okay? I'm trying seed cycling, I'm trying fasting, I'm trying keto, I'm trying all these things. And it's funny to see now— not funny, interesting to see now— I moved away from what healed me in the beginning, and I like started going towards other things like the keto, the fasting, you know, all of that.

So question for you, you know, you alluded to this, but I'm really curious, in your mindset about healing, it sounds like in your early experiences you didn't— you were basically told you're not going to heal, you need surgeries and drugs and whatever, but then it happened spontaneously despite a sort of lack of belief and you were amazed. Is it fair to say you were ever in disbelief?

Oh, for sure. Remember, that's why I went back to buy the Doritos because I'm like—

Exactly, that's fair. Okay, so now you're a true believer. You've really become an extremist. I love that you own that. And now you're— this is a very common scenario I see people in there like, but I eat the organic and I do the this and the that. I like— I And I'll do this with patients, you know, if they're like, they're like, yeah, I only use cruelty-free, organic, non-GMO, soy-free, dairy-free shampoo. And I'm like, is it gluten-free? And they're like, oh, I don't know. Is there gluten in shampoo? And then I'm like, I'm kidding. I'm just messing with you. Relax. Part of that is that I haven't found— I mean, I sometimes joke it's always the last place you look. And I'll sometimes joke with my team, oh, one day we're going to have a patient who's allergic to their scented trash bags. We're going to figure that out. We're going to get rid of those and then they're going to get better. But I honestly haven't seen that. It's more these broad strokes, these big— I would call them big levers you can pull: sunlight, water, food, earthing, you know, EMF mitigation, escaping moldy homes, all kinds of things that we are going to unpack in this podcast. And there will be a part 2, we're already planning. But I'm really curious, what was it like psychologically for you to be doing all this work to be healthy? I think it's fair to say that you felt like you'd figured it out, you'd found, you your way, right? And then have this big disappointment of infertility. What was that like psychologically?

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. And what I now like work with women daily and you work with people daily, it, it's horrible. It sucks. It's defeating. It's frustrating because to say it's because of a lack, it's not true. It is something that we feel, something I felt was outta my hands. I don't know what else to do. I don't understand why this is happening. And what it came down to was, we'll talk about this in a bit, was like, there was something I was missing, but I didn't know what I was missing. And so I was trying everything. I was trying keto and yeah, I got a lot of muscles, but it really screwed with my thyroid. And yeah.

Did you believe that even though you hadn't figured it all out, you were going to figure it out?

Absolutely.

Was there ever any doubt in your mind that you wouldn't?

Yes, there was. I remember a specific time I was walking around the forest up in the north, and I just remember being like, maybe God, like, doesn't want me to have kids because I just— at that point, I mean, I'd been trying for 5 years. And everyone around me, including doctors, you know, that I was working with, they're like, I mean, you're doing everything, you know, from, from what they knew, you know, I was doing everything. And I was just like, I don't know, it's just going to kind of have to— it's just going to have to be a miracle, I guess. I don't know. You know, that's kind of how it felt is like this is completely out of my hands and I'm surrendering it. You know, that's, that was like the defeat. That I felt, but I do specifically remember, sometimes I feel like a lot of times the defeat or the doubt will creep in, and sometimes it's like easier to believe it than to fight it. And so that was one of those moments where I didn't actually believe that, but it was like, I'm just gonna have this little internal sob story and, you know, have this internal like, this is the end, I'm never gonna have kids. And then I remember literally being like, This is so dumb. I'm going to have kids. I'm going to heal. I just have to figure it out, but I don't know how to figure it out. So please help me. Like, I don't know what to do. And so at this point, I'm gonna jump forward. At this point, we had met.

Can I ask a quick question?

Yeah.

That makes me think that you had childlike faith in your approach to this.

I did. Yeah. I had childlike faith because I saw what happened to me in Hawaii. And I knew maybe if I wouldn't have had that Hawaii experience, I wouldn't have had like something tangible to remember.

Yes, seeing is believing. Yeah, but believing is also seeing.

Exactly, exactly. And so that was like a no. I was thriving. And that's when I actually stopped— when I say stopped everything, you have to remember I'm an extremist, so I didn't like actually stop everything, but I stopped seeking like this. I have to take this seed at this certain time, and I have to work out at this certain time on my menstrual cycle, and da da da da da.

And I was like, you stopped looking for the silver bullet?

Yeah. I said, what did I do in Hawaii? I accidentally ate organic food, and I went on walks in nature, and I got tons of sun on my body in the ocean. That is what I was doing. I wasn't even taking supplements. Like, I wasn't even taking supplements. And so then I was just like We have to learn, you know, the simple free things because at this point the amount of money too that I had spent was ridiculous. And so then we started focusing on the light. Like I said, I had always known about that and I always had incorporated it, but I really focused on it more. So instead of, instead of like kind of what I've come to this week is I've had this question for a lot of my clients and this is literally new, like I've been able to put it into words is Can you ever experience health if all you're ever doing is playing catch up? And what I mean by that is, yeah, you have your blue light blockers on, but what are you doing in your home so you don't have to wear your blue light blockers? Yeah, you're on a detox, but what are you doing so you don't have to detox? Yeah, you're, you know, like using a red light panel, but yes, you don't have to use a red light panel. Why don't you just go outside in the sun, in the sunrise, in the sunset? Like I'm literally gonna be making an Instagram post on this soon. Like, are you ever actually healing if all you're ever doing is playing catch-up? Because if you're constantly playing catch-up— oh, you're taking vitamin E? Well, are you taking vitamin E because you won't stop eating seed oils? Like, for me, that was kind of, you know, that question. And so we— non-negotiable, light every single morning, no matter what. And still, 2, 3 years of doing that, I was still not pregnant. But I was like, this This makes sense for my biology. This makes sense for any human being. I need light in the morning and I need the sunset in the evening. That's gonna prime my body. We started unplugging the Wi-Fi and hardwiring and learning about EMFs. And this is about the time that I met you. And so at that point we were 150% organic. And I'm talking like, not just like organic, health food organic, like, no natural flavors, no gums, no organic maltodextrin, like very pure. We were doing the morning and evening light, we were mitigating non-native EMF and artificial blue light anywhere we could. We were living in a van at this point, so kind of jump forward now, we did van life, you know, for 3 years, and we were in a van, so we were out in nature all the time, and we were eating very simply. Not a lot of stress other than the fact that we were super poor and didn't know how we were gonna buy our food. But like, not a lot of stress other than that. We were just kids and we didn't have kids and we would figure it out. And I'm still not pregnant and I'm still hypothyroid, but at least I'm not seeking these stupid things really that are not doing anything for me. And I'm just gonna be hypothyroid and infertile, but at least I'm— I am feeling better. Than when I was doing all the fasting, keto, whatever. I'm heavier than I've ever been, but I felt nourished. And so then we meet Dr. Stillman in Florida and I'm like, I need to, you know, I need to work with you or whatever. And so we start working with him and he's like, all right. He tells me about the RCP, about, you know, minerals, RCP minerals. And that's the one piece This is crazy because people now are like, oh, Ashley's like the mineral girl. I didn't know anything about minerals. I knew nothing about minerals in this whole— Yeah, this whole 4-year journey. Nothing. I've never heard about— like, I kind of knew about magnesium, but it wasn't like magnesium, potassium, boron. Like, I had never heard of an HTMA, anything like that. Leland Stillman's like, all right, do this. And in 2 months Or basically this summer. I wish I had the text, though. He said, this summer I'm going to get a text from you saying you're pregnant.

And I have no memory of this.

You did. You did.

That's so funny.

You like primed my subconscious too. We could talk about subconscious at some point. But you said, I'm going to— you said, I expect a pregnancy announcement this summer. And I was like, okay, like, I'm in. And it made sense. So I remember going to the store. I looked at the RCP very briefly. And I saw it said like a pound of beef liver or whatever. I did not know anything. So I literally went to the store, bought beef liver, cooked an entire pound of beef liver and ate the whole pound for dinner by myself because I thought that's what I needed to do. And then I later looked on the thing and that's not what I was supposed to do. So I remember I added in the adrenal cocktails, I added in boron, I added in the liver. I made sure I was getting enough magnesium. I was basically doing everything else. And then, oh, and then cod liver oil. 2 months later I got pregnant and yeah, 2 months later I remember reading that pregnancy test and just like I couldn't believe it. We'd been trying for so long and had an incredible pregnancy, an incredible labor at home, an incredible postpartum, a super healthy baby. Like Hollis is the healthiest kid ever. He is amazing. And I always tell everyone, I'm like, because Dr. Leland Stillman shared about minerals for me and that was the last thing I didn't know about minerals. I knew about food, I knew about all these things. So it's interesting, like in the community that's developed like this pro-metabolic community, it's all about minerals and whatever. And I was like, oh, I actually didn't know about any of that until the very end. Like the first parts of my healing journey were the light, the grounding in the food, whereas that's normally the opposite for a lot of people. And so now I have two boys and another incredible pregnancy, another incredible labor, and no complications. He was born frank breech, you know, and the end of my bed, no tears.

Like, I didn't know you had a breech birth.

I had a frank breech birth. He was just folded in half, his balls just came out.

Really?

Yeah.

Our boy was breech. Did you know that?

I didn't.

He was breech. Yeah, that's a story for another day. So that's so interesting to me because I— my memory is so funny to me. I have— my staff will say, how do you remember things like that? And I remember some really bizarre trivia. But it's, it's funny, I, I, I see— I've seen so many patients and had so many cases that sometimes I don't remember the, the details of them the way I I might. So I don't remember any of that. And what's also funny about that is that my thinking on minerals has come so far since that time.

Yep.

That I think, oh my gosh, I told you.

That was 2020. So that was 5 years ago.

I have such a better approach now. I know.

Could you imagine? I would've gotten pregnant in like a week.

I've had thousands and thousands of tests and cases now. It's hard to estimate the number of tests that we run now because we have so many different programs going on, but Yeah, I mean, and I, I, I mean, hey, that, that's the crazy thing about minerals to me is that I had a similar experience to you. The first mentor who told me that minerals were the bedrock, the thing you need to focus on first. And if you don't fix them per every single client, patient, whatever they're called in your world, you will not get results.

Nope.

I found that mentor in about 2020. And that was after being in the integrative health space since I was, you know, 14, 15 when I decided to go into medicine. So, I mean, you know, I call it 20 years. I've been in integrative health for 20 years as either, you know, a student or now practitioner for 10 years. I'm coming up on, uh, coming up on 11 in July. And it amazes me that they're the bedrock and then people get them so wrong, but that's maybe a story for for another day. Uh, we do have an HTMA training program if people want to join that. Just jump on the email list, you'll get announcements when we enroll.

Definitely have to go into that. It's essential. I mean, it's essential. I had every other thing, I was doing every other thing, and it was the minerals. And it is the foundation. And imagine, so 2020 is when you found out about that. 2020 is when you told me. So you were like on fire for the minerals, and I was like, I don't even know what that means, which which is crazy. And it worked.

I love it. What a great story.

Okay.

So you had Hollis and then I think that's, it's, we're at about 40 minutes now. I think we wrap it up for today and then we come back and we talk about events with Hollis and your moldy house and where you are now next time. How does that sound?

Sounds lovely.

Is there anything we didn't talk about today that we should have talked about?

No. I hope—

I love being deep in the psychology of wellness.

Yeah.

More and more as I do this. You know this, and I, I love your story. I love the, in the disbelief of, oh my gosh, I, I'm getting well. My lifestyle and my diet were making me sick. No one told me this. One of the most pernicious things I think about conventional medicine is that I've thought a lot about this. The decisions are never presented as an option. They're presented as an inevitability.

Yep.

And what I find interesting about this is that in the whole principle of informed consent, you're supposed to inform the person of the risks, the benefits, all of that. And their excuse is basically, well, they say, well, the alternative integrative medical world, there's not evidence for it. And then they don't create the conditions for the evidence to ever be generated.

Yeah.

So it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, prophecy. And on top of that, what I find so unethical about the way the conventional system operates is that when you get down to it, they actually don't even have very good evidence for a lot of their interventions.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I was looking at this data in, in Robert Yoho's book, Butchered by Healthcare, phenomenal book, well worth reading. But one of the things that stood out to me is something that I did know from my own career in internal medicine, is that for, for decades, cardiologists said, oh, we should stent everyone who's got any kind of heart-associated pain. And it turns out that the only evidence for reducing risk of death and long-term morbidity and mortality is stenting. And, you know, don't quote me on this because I don't manage these anymore, I believe it's an acute myocardial infarction, and it's— I think it's also supposed to be in an ST-elevation MI, which is even a subcategory of, you know, a, uh, of a myocardial infarction. And there, there's robust evidence that opening the artery and— and it's not even stenting, it's just thrombolysis, if I recall correctly. So, and for people who don't know, when you have a heart attack, the artery has a thrombus in it or something like that.

Some—

for some reason it's blocked off, and usually it's a thrombus. Which means an aggregation of platelets. So it's like the pipe is clogged, no blood is flowing, the myocardium is dying because it's not getting structured water and oxygen, which is what it needs to make energy. And what ends up happening is they run in there and they can bust the clot with clot busters, or they can bust the clot, or they can literally pull it out. It's called a thrombectomy. Or they can put a stent in with or without either of those things. And then they can basically It would be like, imagine your, your plumber snakes a stent into the pipe and then blows it up. Really cool. Really slick. Sounds great in theory. Turns out the vast majority of time and money spent doing this in the United States has been for indications, i.e., diseases and medical problems and presentations where it did not reduce the risk of death. It did not reduce morbidity. If it's had any beneficial effect, It's operating entirely on the placebo. And I find this so— what I, when I reflected on about this recently is basically what they don't understand that they're doing is they're hiding what is actually a sale. Yeah. And it's the strongest way to sell somebody is to tell them there's no other alternative and you're going to die and suffer if you don't get it. It's so disingenuous, but no one looks at the doctor as a salesperson. No one looks at the hospital as a place where you're— the sale is being made. It's, well, this is medical care. You have to— it's so insidious and it's so disingenuous. Ingenuous, right?

If you question it, they'll threaten to take your kids away.

Oh my gosh, crazy, the amount of just, uh, corruption in the system. And that's why when people make these— this noise about, oh well, I want to— I want to change this or that or the other at the— this agency or this alphabet soup outfit, I'm like, no, I want to defund all of them, make them not exist anymore, let the states handle it. That's the way that it's supposed to be, what has intentionally been built.

People think this is like an accident No, it's not an accident.

It's a giant grift.

It's not. And because, well, you know, we'll be— when, when my kid, when Hollis had to have his surgery on his eye, I'm like pacing the hospital room looking at the vending machines, and I'm like, if I could just replace these vending machines, all these people. And, and, but really, I know that that's impractical. I'm like, that's there very intentionally. It's not like some accident, you know, that there's Doritos and Coke in this machine. Like, it's intentional. It's intentional that, you know, specific things aren't taught. And so it's one of those, like, you know I used to be like, I'm gonna be an activist and da da da. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna start my own thing and I'm gonna educate people so we can just stop being their customers. And, you know, then kind of like what's happened with our current administration, they'll come in and hopefully clean up some.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very much a model of most people are or have been on the Titanic. There are a certain number of lifeboats to get out of the conventional system, conventional agriculture, conventional technology, social media, news, conventional medical care. Escape this vicious cycle that I see people stuck in where they're not healthy because of their diet, their lifestyle, their environment. They finally exit that, and then they've got to reinvent all of those things. And they need people like us in order to teach them how to do it. But they also need this constant reminding and messaging of, you know, you can't slack off, you can't be lackadaisical about this stuff, you're going to get away with a certain amount of whatever— junk food, staying up late, staying out longer than you should, whatever it is. But at the end of the day, like you said, you know, you're an extremist because you saw what an impact it had on your life. And I don't think people understand this. I've been thinking about this recently a lot. What we do is getting harder. People are sicker. There's more toxicity, there's more dysfunction. I don't know if it's that our, our even our organic food is getting worse, but we have to do more, we have to deliver more, they have to try more things. And it's interesting because, you know, I thought originally in my experience, well, this must just be me, but I've talked to multiple mentors over the years who may have done something like ask their mentor. So this is word of mouth anecdote going back over 100 years And there's a consensus that yes, people are on the whole getting sicker. And it's very much coming to a head, I think, now where the rates of infertility are so high and premature morbidity and mortality from things like cancer, which used to be unheard of and used to be particularly unheard of in young people.

One in two.

One in two. And not only that, but I've had more than one, you know, case, uh, in my practice since leaving the hospital and before in the hospital more than one case of a 30-something-year-old dying of cancer, which would've been, you know, unheard of just 100 years ago. So that's part of why I decided to make this podcast. I wanted to give people a really nitty-gritty strategic and tactical view of how to get well, which I just don't see happening in, in health and fitness space. The podcasts are, are often very product heavy and not actually very heavy on here's how this person actually did this and here's what their mindset was as they get into it. So I really appreciate you sharing that with everyone.

Well, if anyone notices, like, yes, we have— I haven't recommended one single product in this entire podcast.

I know.

I mean, it, right? That's why when people say, oh, I can't be healthy, it's too expensive, I'm like, no, no, you can't be healthy because you're not— you're not— it's not that, like I said, maybe you're trying, but you have to be willing to do the things that are harder. You, you can't afford a red light, then you have to get outside in the morning and in the evening. You can't afford blue light blockers, then You need to turn your lights off. You can't afford supplements, then you need to like buy like higher quality food. You can't, you know, it's like, it's a give and take and you can make your health journey as cheap or as expensive as you want to. And a lot of times the more expensive path is easier 'cause it's easier to just hold a red light on you for 5 minutes before you go to bed than it is to build your day around sunset and sunrise. But something I tell people all the time People say like, so what's your 80/20? What's the worst thing you've eaten all year? I'm like, the worst thing I ate all year was raw homemade ice cream with sugar in it. And people are like, for me, I'm like, I'm not 80/20. Like, Leland Stillman, you know this, I am not 80/20. And whatever this conviction is for you or for not, like, who's listening, but how can you expect to obtain 100% 100% of what you want if you're only gonna put in 80. You can only achieve what you are going for. So if you're going for 90/10, you're gonna achieve 90% of what you want. If you're putting in 50/50, you're gonna have 50/50. If you're having 80/20, you're gonna probably have that— all that, that pain that won't go away, or whatever is going on. And even when you're doing 100, we live in a fallen world and there are things and toxins and things like that. But I always for me at least, my 100%, it's never because of something that I'm not, you know, or like if I'm having something going on, it's like, oh, maybe that this had that, or maybe that happened, or this. It's like, no, I just get to keep living how I'm living and support my body from a value base. So it's not stressful, it's not overwhelming. It doesn't, you know, like people are like, oh, but your kid, doesn't he want that cookie? 'cause he wants a cupcake. And I'm like, no, he doesn't because it's a value of his too now that he's learned. He saw us doing it. So Hollis says, um, I don't actually think that you should eat that. That is not supporting your body.

You know, Hollis, that is great. So yeah, I take it, I, I explain it to patients this way. I, I explain to them that getting well is a lot like taking a plane off or getting a plane to take off. There's really only 3 things you can do. You can give the plane more lift, make the engine bigger, add engines, make them work better, make them more efficient. That's adding stuff. It's adding biohacks, supplements, red light therapy, medications, EMDR, sauna, you name it, right? It can also be making lifestyle adjustments, taking walks, earthing, et cetera. Then there's making the plane lighter. And getting rid of the stuff that makes it hard to fly. You know, you don't try to take off when you've got a boat anchor hanging off the back of your plane. It's a bad strategy, but a lot of people are doing that.

Yep.

And then there's the runway and the biohacks on there too while they're— well, some of that is, yeah, people will be doing the wrong thing, right? You know, like I've seen people, they're taking way too much copper, which we've talked about in the past, and they're not balancing it with zinc at all, which is what most people really need., but that's another story for another day. So then the last thing you can work on is the runway and the runway I realized is a really powerful analogy. And one of the most powerful things about your story, in my view, you know, it's, it's hard to convey the emotion that must've gone into 5 years of trying to get pregnant. 5 years. And the thing is you had this faith that you could do it. You would figure it out. You didn't throw in the towel and say like, put your eggs in the basket, pun intended, of IVF. You like that pun? I just came up with it, just came to me. You really stuck with it and you had faith and that's one thing that's so tough for patients is this idea of, oh, I should be able to do a 2 to 6 month program, which we offer at the practice as to like the kickoff for people and get all better. And we have a great track record of getting people much, much, much better in 2 to 6 months. Because of how we structure it and what we include. But at the same time, people have to appreciate that, and I try to prep them for this if their case is— I know it's going to be tough. Look, your runway may need to be a lot longer than 6 months. We can get you started, we can get you from like, you know, 0 to 20% of your takeoff speed in this 2 to 6 months, but you have to follow through, you have to maintain consistency. And that's something that's really tough, I think, as people get sicker, as the world gets more polluted. As our environments become more stressful, not only the runway has to get longer, it has to get cleaner. And I explain this to patients too, you know, the cleanliness and the quality of the runway, you know, are there potholes, is there debris? That's about consistency. How often are you not taking the supplements in the morning that you really need? How often are you skipping the meals you need to take? Yeah, exactly. But it's— and so I look at it as the consistency of your daily routine, your day-to-day life And also the amount of stress you have, you know, do you have these big fluctuations in stress, you know?

And I—

whenever we have somebody in the, in the practice who is like a drama, drama person, they just— something's wrong every day, every single month, that's a big red flag for them not getting well. Not because our method is not adequate, but because there's too much chaos and consistency in their— inconsistency in their life. And, you know, it's It just comes down to that. You're taking things away. That's jettisoning cargo, making the plane lighter, making it fly easier, just adding power to the lift. And then there's making the runway better. And that's it. That's all you can do. And you have to be willing to accept what that's going to look like and also have that right attitude because that's a huge part of the success, huge part of the lift, so to speak.

I love the runway because, yeah, I mean, if someone comes, you know, to me and is 60 and they've been standard American diet for 60 years, it's going to take them longer than someone who's 20. And, you know, maybe they went out and partied a little bit in college and 2 years, like, it's just going to take longer. I mean, bringing your mitochondria back and all of that. Yeah, it's— you have to believe you're going to be well or you won't. You have to believe you're going to be well. And literally on my intake, it says like, how do you currently feel? And it's like, like horrible. How will you feel? People leave it blank, they can't even fill it out. And I literally screenshot it and send it back to them and say, I will not start working on your protocol until you fill this out. If you need to get on a call with me and we'll go through this because you will not be well. And especially like, what's your vision for being well? What does that even mean for you? 'Cause if not, like you're not gonna notice the changes that are happening. You have no vision No vision for your health, no vision for your future.

And so we have the same process where during the call, because we don't just let people join the practice, you have to go through an evaluation. And during the evaluation, one of the questions that I train my team to ask is, what does success look like for you? And I want them to get very specific. You know, it means, well, I, I don't want to have pain. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean 3 outta 10 pain? Does that mean 0 outta 10 pain? And it's interesting what people say because some people have adjusted their expectations And, you know, I don't think it's realistic for some people to, you know, for example, let's say we've got a metastatic cancer in a 90-year-old.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not gonna tell that person that I'm sure we're gonna make them all better. That would, I think, be very disingenuous. Yes. But I, I would, if they come to me, cuz more often what's happened with people who are much older is they're like, look, I just don't wanna be in as much pain. I just don't want to be in as much dysfunction. I just want to be able to function better. I want 6 months of life. I want, you know, 5 years, 10 years. Um, and it's not that we can't get them great results, it's that we have to be really honest with them about what we've seen with past cases. Um, and we want a clear picture of what success is for them so that we can prepare them. Because if you want to go from really sick, like say you were, to really healthy, we need to prep them for it's— it may take years, and you have to be willing to negotiate on all of these different things that you may never have even considered as being part of your problem. Yeah, EMF, toxic blue light, you know, diet, lifestyle, macros, micronutrients, supplements, light therapy, the whole thing. And some people— for some people, I mean, particularly, you know, you brought this up, the way that you were raised, this is so far out of their their experience that it takes— it's sort of like a shock, culture shock, almost non-existent.

It's not there. Yeah, yeah. And I would say, like, as we, as we send people off, I really like that the whole visual vision kind of thing came forth in this conversation because I remembered a huge key part of my healing journey that I forgot to mention. Um, Ali, she actually actually said, like, is the emotional piece of it, the trauma piece of it. She said to me, and I'm not going to jump super far into it, but she said, well, when you think about being a mom, what does that look like for you? And if there was like a way to snapshot my brain, it would have been blank, black, blank, blank. There was nothing. I had never even visualized myself as a mother. I never thought about what that meant. And I just remember it probably staring there like in a daze for minutes because I didn't even know how to visualize myself in that state of health other than like I would visualize myself in Hawaii, but I wasn't a mom in Hawaii. I was just a young girl like just running free in my slug bug. But I was— she was like, you need to visualize yourself as a mother. And so I had to work hard because if you've never like visualized yourself healthy, It's really hard to answer those questions. Like Dr. Stillman said, when he asked people, well, I want to have less pain, and no, no, like, what, what level pain you want to be at? It almost feels like I can't even speak that because you don't believe it. So until you believe that and speak it, it's not going to happen. And so for me, I was like, I will get pregnant and I will have a little boy, and he'll help me cook in my kitchen, and he'll run around and play with me, and he'll have a brother and a sister. And like I had to make this— it seemed like, oh, like my— like adults can't use their imagination, like this fantasy. No, like I had to create this vision and now watch it come to fruition. And like The Power of the Subconscious Mind is unbelievable. The Power of the Subconscious Mind, the book, is unbelievable as well if anyone wants to read something. But I think as people wait for our next one to come out, um, thinking about Do you actually believe you can achieve the health that you want? And what does that mean? Like, what are you trying to achieve? Because if you're not trying to achieve anything specifically, then you're not going to achieve it.

So you had this moment of realizing, I have to create this vision. And then what was the time interval between creating that vision successfully and conception?

Um, well, I met you the next day. I'm not kidding. I was, I was at Ali's. I was at Ali's doing that. You came the next day, brought all the ice cream for the kids. And then, um, and then it's very vivid in my mind because it's very important in my, in a part of my story. And then it was, you know, that 2 months later. So had the vision, 2 months later got pregnant or got a positive pregnancy test. So really it would only been 1 month after that. That's after 5 years of infertility.

You forgetting that and us spending the last 15 minutes getting around to it, it's like you forgetting the vanilla in vanilla ice cream recipes.

I know it, and I think about that all the time too. I can't believe I forgot that, but it's so good.

I'm so delighted. I also can't believe— part of it I think is like, I, I don't know, I don't know how to put this. It's, it's almost like from the minute you step onto the wards in the hospital, you just feel like you're surrounded by death and disease and dysfunction. And you're just, you're so overwhelmed that you're just trying to like keep up and get people well and put out fires. And so it's, it's so refreshing to hear you say that I had this impact on you because I didn't remember it because I was busy working with somebody, somebody else. I, I, Yeah, I'm so glad. I'm so, so excited to hear that.

Yeah, the hospitals, the clinics, the doctors— no offense to your doctor, but I tell people it's like a— me and Ronita were talking about this— it's like a witch's cauldron. It's like word spells. It's like word spells on people. I was— yes, well, you have Hashimoto's, you have infertility, you have this, this, this. That's what you have, and that's what you're gonna have forever. And let me, let me throw in, those are incurable. You can't ever cure those. And then I cured them, and then they're like, oh well, you must have never actually had them. Like, it's like a big old spell for everyone. Like, it's—

I know. And my, my podcasts on Stories of Hope, Stories of Healing often have stories like this in them. Meredith Oaks, Amy Arps come to mind. We'll wrap it up for today, but thank you so much for joining me, Ashley. Where can people follow you, find out more about you, and just in general enjoy your You?

Yeah, so Simple Holistic, no E, is— that's like across the board on all social medias and things. And then, um, my website is simpleholistic.org, and so people can follow along there. And I have a foundational hormones course that talks about— it literally is the blueprint that I created for myself, you know, because earlier Leland Stillman said like, oh, I knew something had to change but I had no blueprint. So I created that course and that's, that's what it is. And we can get you a, like an affiliate link for that so you can.

And it's called Bare Naked Hormones, right?

Bare Naked Hormones.

So hip, so trendy, so Vanlife. Oh, Ashley. Great. Thank you so much for joining me. It's a pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure you follow the podcast, stillmanmd.substack.com, so you don't miss a single episode or updates from me. Take care everyone. Have a great day. Don't forget to get outside.