Stories of Hope & Healing: From MS Diagnosis to Recovery with Amy Arp - Part I

Welcome to Integrative Medicine with Dr. Leland Stillman, the podcast where we explore the best of East and West, old and new, conventional and unconventional, in search of answers to medicine's toughest cases and most difficult problems. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Diagnostics and therapeutics discussed on this podcast may or may not be right for you, so talk to a qualified practitioner before taking action based on what you learn here. If you'd like to become a patient at about my practice, go to stillmanmd.com to schedule a complimentary discovery call. Thank you for listening and welcome to today's episode. Good morning, everyone. Dr. Stillman here with Amy Arp, and today we have a special episode. So as part of this podcast, which is formally titled Integrative Medicine with Dr. Stillman, I'm going to be interviewing people who've had really profound, incredible stories of healing, and I'm going to call these Stories of Hope, Stories of Healing. And today our first episode is Amy. Amy is a team member. She started at Stillman Wellness and has since moved over to Stillman MD, the medical practice, although she still works at both. Amy, thank you for joining me today.

Thank you. It's a pleasure.

So I'd like to start with just the basics on who you are, where you're from, and how your life began.

Great question. So I grew up in California. I grew up in Salinas, California. It is an agricultural town, so I was sort surrounded by pesticides growing up. My dad has a PhD, he's a plant geneticist, and so we grew up in that environment. Very— yeah, it's super interesting to grow up in an agricultural town, but it was great. Like, I didn't know anything different. I loved it. Then for college, I moved down to San Diego and went to UC San Diego and did a pre-med degree there, got a degree in human biology. That felt far enough away from home. It's about an 8-hour drive from my parents' house. And so that was fun. So after that, I— yeah, so I did pre-med in undergrad. I definitely wanted to be a doctor, but then had some, you know, very radical encounters with God in my undergrad years. And so I didn't end up actually doing that. I went and lived in El Salvador for a couple years after college and did— worked kind of like in humanitarian work, um, for a couple years, which was really fun. And then came back, life just kind of happens. I met my now husband, we got married, we did a bunch of things, paid off some debt from undergrad, did a whole bunch of stuff. Um, and then I ended up working in corporate finance for a few years. And so I know, um, we were on this debt payoff journey and we— it was kind of a Anyway, I ended up in corporate finance, which was a really good job. And so then I ended up making really good money and thought, okay, maybe this is what I'll just do for the rest of my life. I was, you know, in my mid-20s making six figures, and I was like, oh, this is, this is great. Um, but I definitely didn't feel satisfied with my work. It was an interesting environment being there, didn't love it. And so at some point during that those 3 years working there, I really felt like I wanted to go back to school. And so I decided, okay, I do want to go back to medical school. It's not too late. I'm still in my 20s. And so I ended up quitting my job, um, you know, with the support of my husband. We— I quit my job, which felt like a huge risk. Everyone thought I was absolutely insane. They were like, what are you doing? You were on the path to, you know, have great success here. What are you doing? And so I ended up quitting my job, studying for the MCAT, and which is the entrance exam to medical school. I decided to go back and volunteer in the hospitals, work in the hospitals, do everything that you need to do to kind of beef up your application for medical school. And so I did that for a while, and then that's kind of when my story hits rock bottom with multiple sclerosis. So I am, you know, took my MCAT, I'm applying to different schools, I'm doing everything I possibly can just to get ready. I already have that pre-med degree, as I mentioned. And then after I applied to schools, I was in this waiting period. And then that's when I woke up one morning and I was numb from the waist down. And then that just goes into my entire healing journey.

What was the season? Where were you in, in the world?

Yeah, so I was working at a hospital. I was doing clinical research. And so I actually had a Huh, which city? I was in San Diego, so I was still in San Diego, San Diego, California, and I was, yeah, working in a hospital at that point. I had taken the MCAT, um, many months before that, and I had submitted my applications, and so I was excited, just waiting, essentially in a waiting period. But also it had been a period of stress leading up to that because I had been out of undergrad at that point for about 8 years. And so it did feel very nerve-wracking of like, you know, what is this going to look like? You know, everyone thinks I'm too old to do this, even though I'm not. I'm so young still in my 20s. But people, you know, would comment of, oh, most people go at 22. I'm like, yes, okay, doing things a little differently.

I don't know anymore, actually. Yeah, I feel like my medical school was was split between people who had taken a few years to do something else and the occasional person who'd been like, for example, there was someone in my class who was in finance for, I think, a decade before he decided he was tired of it and wanted to do something more meaningful. So you're right though, you were on the older side to join medical school.

Mm-hmm. So I was just working in a hospital at that point, and it really came out of the blue. I woke up one morning, was prepared to go to a shift at the hospital, getting up early, going to be at the hospital at 7:00 AM. And I woke up and I couldn't feel my legs, like I was numb from the waist down. And I was so shocked. I was like, what happened? I had gone to bed the night before. Everything was normal, not under any particular stress. Nothing particularly different happened. And then I woke up and was numb. And in the body we have sensory neurons and we have motor neurons. And so thankfully for me, it was all sensory. So I could still walk, but I couldn't feel myself walking. Which is a very strange sensation. So my brain was like looking around all the stimuli around me and able to walk, but I just couldn't feel anything. I couldn't feel the toes on my—

You would put a foot down and not feel the floor.

Not feel the ground.

You would put on a pair of pants and not feel it slipping over your legs.

Correct.

You would close your eyes and have someone say, lift your right foot. You might have done it, but you would have felt like you didn't even know if you were doing it. You would have had to look to confirm.

Correct. Yes. And so everything was such a strange sensation. You don't realize how much you can feel your clothes on your body until you can't feel them, and then you realize, oh, I normally feel my clothes on my body. And so it just felt so strange. But I, at that time, when I woke up feeling that way, I thought Maybe I pinched a nerve. At that time, I was doing some personal training at the gym, trying to get stronger. So I had a personal trainer. So I contacted him right away. I was like, hey, is this a pinched nerve? What did we do? Is there an exercise you made me do that would have caused this? And so I was just— I wasn't actually super concerned that morning. A little bit, because it's jarring that you can't feel your legs or your waist. But I also was like, oh, it's probably a pinched nerve. I'm pretty healthy. You know, I don't eat sugar. I eat my vegetables. I exercise. I'm pretty healthy. That's really what I thought. Yeah.

What was your exercise intensity and tempo at that time?

At that time, I was, as I mentioned, I was doing some personal training, so I was trying to increase strength training. But I was doing a lot of like a lot of cycling classes, a lot of that stuff. You know, when you're in your 20s, you love to do all of that stuff. And so that was a huge part of my exercise routine. So very intense. I'm also a very intense person just by nature. And so, you know, I was doing all of these things, but also very intensely exercising to relieve stress in that season, trying to strength train, but not fully getting there at that point.

And what season of the year was it, by the way? Winter, spring, summer, fall?

Kind of like it was springtime of, uh, springtime.

So coming out of the winter, the vitamin D low, nadir, even though you still get some UV in San Diego year-round, you don't get very much. And you were inside the hospital most of the day, so you weren't getting hardly any, really.

Yes, that is correct. Or I was putting my nose in a book studying for, you know, 10+ hours a day trying to Mcat. So then I— yeah, so I was doing strength training, so I wasn't super concerned, um, but I did go to urgent care. I was like, you know, let's go to urgent care, I don't want to go to the ER at this point. And they were so concerned, of course, naturally. They were like, they were like, this is not good. I was like, oh, are you sure I didn't just pinch a nerve or something? They were like, You need to contact a neurologist. I was like, a neurologist? I was like, what has happened to me? So I end up calling a friend, a doctor friend of mine, and she was also very concerned, one of my mentors. And she was like, go to the ER right now. Like, take a shower. You're going to be at the ER for a while. Take some food. This is very serious. And I was like, oh, okay, great. So I go to the ER. I'm now terrified because she's telling me I might have a brain tumor, I might have something else.

And so I go— your husband.

Yeah, of course. And he went with me. So he took the day off work, he went with me, went to the ER. And he was like, okay, great. Also not knowing what was going on because we had no grid for this. We, like, I thought I was pretty healthy up until this point. I felt like I didn't really have a ton of health issues. Looking back now, I can see all of the health issues that I had as a child. I had severe allergies. I had allergy shots for, you many, many years. As a young child, I had my tonsils out when I was little. And so all the things that now you can see, oh, that was very unhealthy, that was not good. But you just don't know about that until you're faced with illness in order to see the problems. And so, you know, I thought I was pretty healthy because I, you know, would always go to the doctor and you wouldn't have any, you know, they're like, you're fine, your blood work's good, all the things, you're very healthy, you're active. And so anyway, I go to the ER and I— they're obviously very concerned, rush me in, like, urgently concerned, you know, because it's bilateral. They said if it was a pinched nerve, it would only be unilateral. And so I was like, okay, great, what could this possibly be? So they're ruling out brain tumors. Thankfully didn't have that. And then they're doing— so then they admit me to the hospital, they do a spinal tap, they do all of that stuff. And then I have to wait for a couple days for them to get my results because they're doing MRI. They're doing every test under the sun. So I'm just in the hospital waiting. And then eventually a doctor comes in and he was like, you are being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, MS. And at that point I was shocked. I was like, how can this possibly be happening to me? My grid at that time for MS was what I had learned in undergrad was just that it's this horrible autoimmune disease that just puts people in wheelchairs. And for those of you that don't know much about multiple sclerosis, it is often characterized as an autoimmune disease where they believe that the antibodies are attacking the myelin sheath around your nerves. And it can happen on any nerves, in any nerve in your body. And so a lot of people do end up in wheelchairs given if they're— this— the lesions are in your spinal cord. Um, a lot of people end up going blind because of it, because it attacks the optic nerve. And so I was terrified, and my grid for this was— there was a doctor who I followed on social media who, at that time, he was running a company helping—

you keep saying grid, my grid for this. I don't actually— I don't know that I've ever heard you use that term before, even though we've worked together for— how long has it been now? Almost a year.

Yeah.

Explain to people, what does that mean?

My preconceived ideas of what this disease was, I guess. So what I had learned up until that point, and that's the lens that I was looking through. Yeah, that's the lens that I was looking through at the hospital was this is the lens that I'm seeing it as and taking my prior knowledge, which was very little about MS, and then applying it to my life and then thinking, this is it, my life is completely over because the few things that I know about this disease are horrific. And there was a doctor that I had followed on social media at the time, and he ran a company helping people get into medical school. And he had been diagnosed with MS when he was in residency, and he had to quit residency and never finished and just never went back because his health was so horrible. And so for me, that was my idea. I was like, if he couldn't finish residency, and he had been in the military, and he was, you know, a very strong guy, I was thinking, there's no way that I'm ever going to be able to do this if that's what happened to him. So at that point, I'm in the hospital, thinking everything I've worked towards is just crumbling before me. I'm wondering, what am I going to do? The doctors are telling me We don't actually know what's going to happen to you. We really have no idea. It's different for each person. And so at that point I was like, wow, my life is over. And then on top of it, I get accepted to my top program while I was in the hospital, like in the hospital bed laying there. I get an email that I'm accepted and I am just crying. I'm like, how is this even possible? I get in. And so anyway, so I'm on IV steroids for a week or, you know, 5 days or however long they give you. And then they're kind of like, okay, let's go see a neurologist. So I end up going seeing, to go see my first neurologist and my first neurologist that I saw, he, I get there and he's like, your case is so extreme. I don't want to work with you. He was like, you have so many lesions in your spinal cord. Like you will end up in a wheelchair. It's just a matter of time. And you're so young. I don't want to work with you. And so he ends up, I'm like, you know, I'm terrified already. And now for him to say, I personally don't wanna work with you because he didn't know what to do. And so he's like, you have so many lesions in your brain and your spinal cord, like it's a really bad case. So he said, I'm gonna refer you to the top MS specialist at UCSD. He doesn't often take new patients, but I'm gonna get you in next week because you need help. And I was like, okay.

How did you— how did that feel? How did that land?

That was devastating. I had never been in a situation like this. I also didn't know at that time, you know, that doctors— you know, you would think a neurologist is very educated, knows what they're doing with a disease like this. And for him not to want to take on my case, I was like, oh, this is really bad. This is so bad. I don't know what to do with that piece of information. So naturally, I'm like crying in the appointment. I don't remember who was with me, but I'm like weeping. And he's like, yeah, this guy's great though. He's gonna take care of you. He's like, but you need to switch your insurance. You need to change everything. You need to go over to see him. And so I was like, okay, that is devastating. And my husband at this point is thinking, Is my wife going to be in a wheelchair? Am I going to have to take care of her for the rest of her life? Because we didn't know. He, you know, basically said that he didn't know if it would be 5 years, 10 years, or, you know, 20 years before I'm in a wheelchair, but that it would happen and that there was, you know, no doubt about it given my severity of my case. And that was devastating in your 20s to be told you are going to be in a wheelchair potentially in your 30s. Is absolutely crushing. I have all these dreams. Also, I'm a big dreamer, very driven. I had all these dreams and plans for my life. My husband and I wanted to have kids and what was that gonna look like? So we go to the next neurologist and he has been working in the MS specialty for about 30 years at this point, very seasoned in it. And he was just kind of like, okay, we also don't know what your course is gonna look like. You know, it does look like at some point you will end up in a wheelchair. You at some point will probably have dementia. He's like, you could, I guess, go to medical school. I guess that stuff may not happen for a little while, but you probably won't have a very long career. And he also had said at that meeting, you know, I don't know if you're going to be able to have kids because I don't know if you'll be able to take care of them. And so he had recommended at that first appointment, he said, I want you to try to get pregnant right now if you want to have any kids at all. And so he like wrote on my note, please take prenatal vitamins, get pregnant, and then we'll go have a baby. And so—

wow.

Yes. And wow.

Okay.

And then also he proceeded to tell me, hey, you just need to have fun with this disease. He's like, I have this patient who— when, um, so at this time also I forgot to mention, but so not only was I numb from the waist down, I also had heat sensitivity, so meaning that any time that I would go out in the heat, my symptoms would flare even more. So my face would go numb, my hands would go numb. I— so I couldn't really be out in the heat even though San Diego was very mild. You know, it was a nice 75 at the time or maybe 70, but I would still get symptoms going out in the 70, 75-degree weather. I had urinary incontinence, which was really tough for me, so I couldn't hold my bladder. I couldn't even feel that I needed to go to the bathroom because remember, I'm still numb from that area down. I had extreme fatigue, extreme fatigue, could barely function at this point. And so I'm having all of these symptoms. And he tells me, you just need to have fun with it. And one of his patients, when she goes into the heat, he had said that she really loves her hot tub. And they tell people, don't go in hot tubs or hot showers because your symptoms can flare. And so she goes in this hot tub. And he says, every time she goes in the hot tub, she'll go blind. But she loves her hot tub so much. So she'll go in her hot tub until she goes blind. Then she'll jump out, go in the pool, let her sight come back, jump back in the hot tub, go blind, jump back. And he's telling me a story. He's like, just have fun with it. And I'm just weeping in the appointment. I'm like, how is this my life? It just feels like overnight, my life completely changed. I did absolutely nothing. I thought I was healthy, and it just felt like everything was crumbling beneath me. And so I am like devastated is an understatement. Just like absolutely crushed. I have no idea what to do. Also, at this time, I was not into holistic health stuff. Like I ate healthy and I knew to like eat, you know, limit your sugar intake and, you know, eat your vegetables and all the stuff. But I wasn't particularly into all the different holistic health practices. I had a bunch of friends that were into it, and I kind of felt like, this kind of feels like a scam at times. I don't know, like, that was just my mindset because I always remember going to traditional medical school. That was my paradigm. My dad has a PhD. Growing up, that was just what we, you know, we followed whatever the doctor said. And so at that time, that was not really my thought process, but I did think, okay, you know, I'm pretty desperate here. I don't want to go on these horrific drugs because the doctors were telling me you're going to have to be on an immunosuppressant drug for the rest of your life and the drugs have side effects. And so when I initially was in the doctor asking about these drugs, he had told me that, you know, that's kind of why he initiated get pregnant right now was he said, if you get on these drugs, and you get off of them to get pregnant, you'll often have a more intense relapse than you had even before, and your symptoms will get even worse. And so he said, let's, you know, hold you off putting you on them, have a baby, and then we'll put you on them for the rest of your life. And so I— it just didn't sit well with me. And so I started doing what I normally do, researching. I was researching these drugs. I was researching all of this stuff. And then I ended up researching. I'm like, maybe diet can be an impact because you hear— you had heard of stories of, you know, diet was really— that was like starting to become more popularized. Diets were becoming a bigger thing in your health. Just— yeah, this was 2019, so not super long ago, 6 years ago, but almost 6 years ago. But it felt like that stuff was emerging even more at that time. And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna research nutrition. And so I found someone that had gone vegan and had been in remission from MS. And so I thought, okay, I have to do vegan. So I started to try to be vegan for a couple months, which ended up being horrible for me and was not a good fit. And I quickly realized that— yeah, so I started a vegan diet actually in the hospital because I thought This is, this is going to be my life now. I have to eat vegan. This is, I found this one story that that was the case. Um, this lady had put herself into remission and so I ended. Yeah.

So you were sitting in the hospital bed and there's a very important moment here that we sort of glossed over. You'd been told with certainty what your future was. You clearly did not accept it. Yes. What happened in that moment? What was that transition from entertaining the story? Because I have this very, very, uh, profound, firm belief. My overwhelming experience in life is that people come in with no preconceived notions. As my friend Richard Brooks likes to— Brooke likes to say, he says infants are afraid of like loud noises and falling, and everything else is learned. So people have this story, your grid as you called it, for what to expect. And then you were offered, quite frankly, an even worse story by your doctors. And something inside of Amy Arp plus or minus Ben Arp— I would be curious what his role was in this— said, even though the top doctors at this top institute who've been dealing with MS for a combined period of time, probably equaling at least one human life, and all the medical science and all the textbooks and all the experts, even though they say that this story, this narrative, is my doom I am going to say, no, you're not right. What was that moment like?

Yeah, so I think it was a progression. So I'll explain kind of the journey of that. When I was in the hospital, I, you know, as I had mentioned before, I'm a Christian. And I had, you know, had— my life was very involved with church at that time. And so I fully believed that, you know, there was a chance that maybe the Lord would just miraculously heal me. Like, maybe I would just have this miraculous story.

And you've got to tell us now. Now you have to tell us the story of how that story became a story you could believe. Because the truth is, many people grow up in the Christian faith believing even such extreme doctrines as cessationism, which is the teaching that Christ and the apostles and the early church, after that period, there were no more miracles. We just didn't rate for miracles here on planet Earth anymore until Jesus gets back or whatever. And so you— there's clearly a story here that's very important for people to know of your journey into your faith that then set you up for success.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I am a part of a church that does believe in physical healing. And so, you know, we have— that doesn't mean that every single person you ever pray for gets healed. That would be amazing, but that's not the case. But we do believe that the Lord does miracles today. And so I have been, you know, that has been my, my worldview in terms of, you know, believing that that can happen. That doesn't mean that it always happens, but there are really incredible stories, even in the secular world, in hospitals, where people will just say, we can't explain this. This is an absolute miracle. Like, this shouldn't have happened. This is incredible. And, and so in my mind, that was just a kind of deep-rooted thing that I had. But I was, you know, I guess, um, I didn't know if that would be my story. I wanted it to be. I desperately wanted it to be. I'm like, you know, I had researched even different people that have on YouTube, and they would just, you know, have these stories of like, this woman got out of her wheelchair. And I'm like, that's incredible. If that's true, that's incredible. I, I want to believe for that. And so I also, part as part of just over the years of my faith, I know that our words have so much power. And so even within just, um, you know, not— it's not a, it's not a thing where you say, oh, I'm creating my own I can say whatever I want, it's going to happen. That's not what we believe. But we do believe that your words have power. And so, you know, for example, if you're reading scripture or you're praying, like, that has power. And to say that out loud. And so that has been a part of me for many, many, many years. And because of that, when I was in the hospital, you know, I was trying to figure out, I'm like, okay, you know, calling different pastors' wives, doing emotional healing work. I'm like, okay, what other emotional healing work do I need to personally do? And then also believing for the miraculous and the impossible. And so that was just a part of, um, our church environment, church culture, um, not to an unhealthy extent, because I know there are also denominations out there that are very extreme on that edge.

Yeah.

So what was your—

what was your faith like? What was your faith life like growing up?

Um, so I grew up in a Lutheran home, um, which was a different denomination. And so we were more like Sunday church Christians, uh, where we go to church on Sundays. Yes, we would go on Sundays, but it was more than that. And so we were Sunday church Christians. And then I, in college, was when I had really, really, really radical encounters with the Lord that just changed everything. You know, I had— I came into college and did all the normal college things and joined a sorority and did all of that stuff. But the Lord really, it felt like, sought me out. And I had some very just radical encounters for another podcast. And then after that, it was just— my life was completely changed. And everything that I had, you know, everything was completely changed. And I just really radically lived out my faith, really just was very involved with church.

Yeah.

And so then since then, it has been a huge, important part of my life in many ways. And so bringing that back to the healing journey, at that point when I was healing, of course, people are, you know, coming to pray for me. We're believing together that the Lord can heal this or change this. But also, there was a part of me that thought, you know, I don't actually know anybody that has been miraculously healed from this. And so it is a little bit harder to believe that such an extreme physical healing could happen. And so I— yeah, so that's kind of that piece of it.

Got it. One thing I'm curious to ask you is, I often hear from people that they diverge from where their family is in faith somewhere along the line in life, and often there's a lot of conflict that emerges because of that. And I'm curious if there was ever any, uh, any stress, drama, uh, or conflict when you, you, you had this radical belief, we might call it, that you could heal despite the certainty of your physicians that you were doomed. Did that cause any kind of stress within your friends, families, or particularly within the medical community that you were rapidly becoming a part of?

I would say thankfully no. Everyone was, you know, I think at that time just wanting the best for me and also believing and full of faith. I would say the doctor I had I had asked him, one of the neurologists, I said, have you ever seen a miracle in healing from MS? He laughed in my face and he said, I create miracles. And I was like, okay, we're not going to touch on that subject again. So, um, it was, uh, interesting to— it was interesting. Um, and so yeah, so that was an interesting time. And then, so kind of getting back to the initial question that you asked me about my mindset, so I would say when I was in the hospital I did have this time, you know, there's, as I mentioned, I'm a very intense, driven person. And so I thought, okay, this can't be my life. I don't know how this is gonna change, but I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to try to change it. And if at the end of the day, the answer is I end up in a wheelchair, then I end up in a wheelchair. And that's just gonna be my lot in life. That is just what it is. And so I end up, so in the hospital, I'm looking at nutrition 'cause that was all I had known. And so I, as I mentioned, started eating vegan, which was so not healthy for my personal body. And I started eating vegan. I did that for a couple of months and I just felt even worse. Coming to find out when I did blood work that my cholesterol was already super, super, super low, like dangerously low. And so eating a vegan diet was reducing it even more. And so it was just tanking me even further. But at that point, I didn't fully understand all of the ins and outs of it. And so at that point, I—

yeah.

So then now finally getting into kind of the healing stuff. So I, at some point, I would say, I would say in the hospital I had a little seed planted. But I, if I'm honest, I was still just so overwhelmed and overwhelmed with emotion and cried so much during the first couple of months. Because I thought my life is over. Everything is, this is just it. And having some pretty serious conversations with my husband of like, what do we do? What does this look like? You know, do we go on these immunosuppressant drugs? Do we try to have a kid right now? What do we do? And just getting to this place of I'm too much of an emotional basket case at that point to do anything or make any decisions. And so at some point, I don't remember the exact moment, but at some point I just, oh, I do actually, okay. So people in their well-meaningness would send you people who also have MS. And they would say, talk to this person, they're doing so well. You want to make sure, you know, you wanna hear an encouraging story, talk to this person. So I would call these people, some of them were my age, some of them were older. And then I would hear their story and it was not as encouraging as my friend or whoever told me about them thought. And so I started talking to these people. One girl had been left partially blind from her first MS attack and that had never fully regained sight. She also had had multiple relapses and was on very strong immunosuppressant drugs and having crazy symptoms. She had an incredible outlook on life, was very encouraging. She's like, "It gets better." but was also suffering every day in silence because, you know, you can only tell people so much, you know, how much you're suffering. And it was— every story was like that. It was, I'm on immunosuppressant drugs, I've had this many relapses, these are my lingering symptoms, and then I'm on drugs to combat the immunosuppressant drug impacts. And so every story, I would get off the phone and just cry. Because I thought, wow, these are people that they think are doing really well. And to hear the backstory of how they're actually doing was devastating. And I was like, I do not want this for my life. Like, I cannot have this. And so at some point after a lot of those calls, I just said, enough is enough. I am not talking to anyone else unless you've been healed from MS. Even though I had never known anyone had been healed from MS. But I said, I'm not talking to anyone else. If you tell me anyone's name, give me their number, I'm not talking to them anymore. Because it was too emotional for me. I just couldn't fathom that. And just hearing it over and over made it more of a reality. And I almost— I don't know, maybe I was in part denial. I just like didn't want to accept it. I was like, I just can't. And then I had connected with one lady who had healed from cancer at some point, and she said, your words really matter, which I already knew. But she said, change your language about how you talk about this. She said, you can say I was diagnosed with MS, but never take it on as your identity. So never say I have MS or this disease that I have or my disease or any of that. And so I quickly changed my language and never said I have MS. I said I was diagnosed with MS. This is what the doctors are telling me. And I would leave it at that. And that was sufficient.

That had a profound impact on your life.

Yeah, that, that conversation was very impactful because it was things that I already knew. I really don't know. It was, it was like a friend of a friend of a friend and I had talked to her once and then that was, that was it. I haven't talked to her since.

I don't even know.

When you're diagnosed, you're in such a fog. And she wasn't going to be someone— she had some interesting philosophies on holistic healing that I didn't— the different route that I didn't want to go down. And so I just decided to not pursue that any further. And so at that point, I had just decided I'm only talking to people that have been healed completely. If you haven't been healed, don't talk to me. And I'm gonna change my language about how I talk about MS. And so at that point, I think that was the point that really got me into a different mindset. And then I started researching with a different, I don't know, a different like idea. I was thinking, okay, I am gonna look for people that have put their MS into remission, or, you know, that's what the doctors were saying at the time, or they say they've been healed. And so finally, when my mindset shifted, I started researching more intently and I came across this article in this exercise magazine, of all things. And this lady was talking about how she had healed completely from MS. She ended up being a triathlete doing like 50+ triathlons. And she had cited in the article this holistic center in San Diego. And she said, I went here and they healed me of MS, of MS, or they helped me. And she had cited the exact center. And I was like, in San Diego? What, what is this? And I'm like, is this even real? Is this possible? So at that point, remember, I'm still in the mindset of nutrition is going to be the only thing that's going to help me because I had no idea about anything else in the holistic world. So I'm thinking nutrition is going to help me. So I call this center and I, I say, hey, I've been diagnosed with MS. Can you help me with nutrition? And the lady on the phone, the first person that answers, she said, oh honey, I was diagnosed with MS 20 years ago. I've been healed. I've been symptom-free ever since then. You'll be fine. The doctors here will take great care of you. And I was just like, what? How is this even possible right now?

Like, nice.

How is this even possible that you are telling me that you healed from MS 20 years ago and you're living a completely normal life? I mean, she's doing all the health things, but living her life, she's like, I have grandkids.

It might not seem so normal to some people.

Yeah, it may not seem so normal. But she's like, I enjoy my grandkids. I can do everything I want to. It was incredible. And so she set me up with a doctor. This doctor, his name was Dr. Kellis, and he has a PhD, but he ran the center collaborating with other MDs and other doctors. Since then, the practice, he's retired since then and the practice is no longer in practice. He sold it and they don't function the same way, unfortunately. But it was really cool when it existed. So I went to him and my first appointment, he was just like, "You'll be fine." I'm like, "What do you mean I'll be fine?" He was so calm about it. He's like, "Yeah, I wrote a book about healing from MS." MS, no big deal. You're fine. And I just like was like, imagine my mindset before coming into this. I'm like, I don't even know if this is real. Like, are you scamming me right now? You're taking my money. Is this real? Like, I have no idea.

Do you mind talking about, about the, that experience? Like, what was it like jumping into this? Was it, hey, we'll cure your MS and it's $9 grand, or was it your initial appointment is, what was the experience?

Yeah. So at that time, the way he ran it was your initial appointment is X amount of dollars or, you know, so many hundreds of dollars. And then it was add-on from there. And so I didn't know at the beginning of it how expensive this journey would be. I ended up spending tens of thousands of, I don't know, like $50,000+ over the course of the years.

Not just there, but other places as well.

No, other places as well. Um, which I don't think people need to do that. That is not—

no, absolutely not.

You do not need to spend that insane amount of money on your health.

We're recording this in 2024, and Lord only knows with the rate they're currently printing money how much any of this—

I mean, that's a good point.

10 years from now, good point. People could come back and just be like, oh, $9,000, that was my morning cup of coffee.

Seriously. So yeah, I, you know, we had at that time, it was just a miraculous thing that we had set aside so much money that we had saved for me to go to school because we were trying to help supplement some of the costs to go to school. And so that's, you know, part of the reason why we were able to afford some of these treatments over the years. And then, of course, like just making huge sacrifices financially to make this work. You know, not owning a home and not doing different things that all our friends were doing at the time, but thinking, okay, this is worth it. We're going to keep spending the money. The vacations. Yeah, none of that. We went on— yes, very extreme. Correct.

Right.

You kind of do anything, uh, to, you know, to anyway figure it out. So in that first appointment, he's telling me, you're gonna be okay, it's it's, you know, reassuring me. I— he could tell I was like, I don't, I don't know if I believe you. I don't know if this is real, right? Um, uh, I don't know what to do. He's like, okay, we'll take it one step at a time. We're gonna start with this, we're gonna start with this. And then I started meeting more people that had also healed from MS. And there was another lady at that center who had been symptom-free for 10 years, completely healed. And each person had a different story of what caused their MS. And so it was interesting because it wasn't like, take this one specific playbook and copy paste for Amy. It was, okay, now we need to figure out why did Amy's body show up with MS, or, you know, the symptoms of MS, because really MS is just a label diagnosis they put on a set of symptoms. It's not necessarily this thing. And so why did my body—

any illness, right? And that's the same thing. That's one reason why I take testimonials the way that I take them, is I ask patients, what gets the credit for your healing? And the answer is always different, different things. And I understand that there— a lot of this is unknowable, you know. For all I know, something is working in the background that they're not aware of, I'm not aware of, But very clearly, one of the trends is there's no one-size-fits-all protocol. And that's something that has become very much in vogue. And it's why, you know, I asked you about what the experience was. People coming into an experience that may be transformational in a positive way understand that there are frankly a lot of ill-intentioned people out there who will take advantage of people who are in a very vulnerable place where they're, they're unwilling to accept. And your story about making this transition from, you know, weeping over what you've been told your doom was to, I'm going to do whatever it takes and don't talk to me if you haven't healed, really reminds me almost uncannily of my mother's— have you ever heard me tell the story about my mother's Okay. So, when my sister and I were little kids, we had a lot of the same problems you did. We had ear infections, sore throats, allergies. My sister's eyes crossed at one point. She needed to have a surgery in order to uncross them or release the muscles. And then, she also had recurrent sinus infections. And so, my sister was post-op— post-operative from a surgery on her sinuses and the doctor comes out. My mother is holding my sister over the emesis basin. And she looks up at the doctor and she says, thinking, of course, this is a horrible moment and I never want to come back here again. We've solved the problem, right? This is it. And my daughter is now cured. And the surgeon says, oh no, the holes we've drilled in her sinuses will heal up and we will have to go back in and operate again.

Oh no.

And at that moment, my mother describes this very clear shift internally. Of, oh, okay, this is all you have to offer me. We're going to try literally anything else to improve our outcome. And that's, I think, a really fascinating phenomenon that I think happens to everyone who jumps the fence from the conventional to the alternative world. But I mean, we went to some real kooks and real wackadoodles and just some horrible, horrible practitioners who I wouldn't recommend to anyone. And that does become then one of the great concerns of people that I really appreciate and understand. They're very wary of engaging in care, which is why I stopped operating the way that this, this practice was operating. We need to make sure that someone, A, believes they can get well. B, I decided to make it all transparent and say, hey, here's what I think it's going to take. I don't want you to feel— because the other thing I noticed was that people, as they were getting constantly, well, you need this consult and you need this therapy and you need this and you need that, the monster of, can I afford this for as long as it's going to take for me to heal? That monster would grow and it would become more and more and more stressful. And that's the last thing anyone who's trying to heal from a chronic disease needs. They need transparency and reassurance that, hey, 'If you can afford this for this period of time, you can get better.' Or at least, 'Here's the numbers on how you might get better.' Although what's funny about it is that, you know, I'm reminded in your— you're, uh, you're mentioning the certainty with which these doctors approached your case. I'm reminded of Han Solo's, uh, quote in, uh, I think it's the first Star Wars. He says, 'Never tell me the odds.' And I, I love that. I love that. 'Never tell me the odds. Just let me go and do it.' And there's a certain truth to that. You know, a lot of things that people are glad they did, the odds are not necessarily in their favor. As you mentioned, obviously you kept meeting people who'd done this, gone this route, taken this approach, and it healed, which is of course what we see. But that's, that's another key point is that, that we haven't really talked about, which is that, and part of what I try to screen for in the practices, I try to avoid working with people who are not prepared to do the work, because if they come in, then they leave with the impression that even if the therapy was exceptional, the best in the world, that it didn't work, and that was just another doctor out there, you know, operating in bad faith. So very interesting, your experience going to the center. And so you— so tell us more, what happened next?

Yeah, so I kept going to the center and kept working with them and just following whatever they said because I was at that point, to your point about working hard, I was like, I will do whatever it takes. If you're telling me there's a chance and I'm talking to this lady in person who has healed, there is one person, one person who has healed, um, then, then I'm gonna figure out a way to do this. And just having those couple people initially know, like, for me to know that they healed was enough for me. I was like, okay, if they healed, somebody has done it on this planet. So can I. I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what it's going to take, but somebody.

And it's such a different mindset than, okay, one of a thousand people heals. Therefore, my odds of healing are 1 in 1,000. It's— and let's say the number was that, 1 in 1,000. Okay, 999 people fail. I'm just not going to do what they did.

Correct, correct. That was very different mindset. It was. And as silly as this is, like, there was that lady that I had— so I had found the, the lady who was featured in that article. I had found her Instagram page, and so I would like pore over her Instagram page and just like look at it. And she was living a normal life. Like, there was one post she made, and she's very— she was talking— she talks a lot about healing from MS. But she—

are you two friends? I get the feeling like you're friends.

No, I haven't met her yet. I reached out to her. I haven't met her yet. I desire to meet her, but one day, maybe, maybe one day.

But she's amazing though, that someone you've never met was such an inspiration to Yeah, absolutely.

And one day when I do meet her, eventually, I will tell her and it'll be great. So, but she had been eating a birthday cake. She'd gone out on her birthday and was eating a birthday cake at a restaurant. And I was just like, "She's eating a birthday cake. Oh my gosh, she's living a normal life. Like, it's possible." And as silly as that was, I would like— there were days if I was discouraged, I would look at her post and I'm like, Okay, she's eating ice cream, she's eating a birthday cake. Not all the time, obviously, she's also doing all the things for her health.

Sure.

But it was so encouraging to me that somebody else had done it, and that they had healed, and that now they are able to live their life, just live their life, you know, she's working a job, her kids are graduating from high school and doing all these things. And it was so encouraging. And she had, you know, also been featured on different podcasts and different things. So I was listening to her journey. And And it was just, just to know that someone else out there has done this was enough for me. And that was enough to kind of fuel my fire to keep going. And so I thought, I'm just going to keep going no matter what it takes, no matter what this looks like, I will do whatever these doctors tell me. If they really know what they're doing, we're going to do it. And so then that brought me onto this journey really of just so many things. I ended up doing so many different therapies. At some point I can list them all off, but I went to this first center and they had really great things. And then, but I felt like there were potentially some things missing. But I did find great symptom relief. I found phenomenal, you know, numbness was going away. It was really incredible. And then I pivoted and found another practitioner who was more of a health coach at that time, and she worked with MS patients, and she had been healed. She had been symptom-free from MS for about 20-plus years, 20 years I think at that point. And so I started working with her, and, you know, the first center that I went to was, um, we did a lot of different therapies, but then her philosophy was on a lot of anti-parasitic drugs, believing that parasites can cause diseased in a lot of people. And so I did a lot of protocols with her. And then again, I pivoted again. I felt like, okay, there's probably a little bit more that needs to be done. And then I found another doctor, Dr. Yu, and he really helped me understand this, you know, concept of dental infections and also infections in general. He had a different approach to healing as well. So I did some different things with him. I did at that point cavitation surgery because I— all 4 of my wisdom teeth sites had infections in them. So I did, you know, I did so much stuff. And then, um, that doctor, Dr. Yu, was the one that actually introduced me to HTMA, which was awesome. And he was my first exposure to the hair tissue mineral analysis. He used that in every patient in his practice. He used the same lab that we use here, ARL. And it was just a cool— yeah, You were gonna say something.

So we're gonna have to have a part 2 because we can't just say, you know, well, then Amy did cavitation surgery, HTMA, and some antiparasitics, all these other things.

And I have a whole list of like 20 things I did.

And so, but I want to wrap things up today so we can do a part 2 and really do it justice. And so, uh, in the interest of that, Number one, you're completely symptom-free, in remission. Do you have like MRI confirmation that your brain and nervous system have completely healed?

Yeah, so my last— so a couple really cool things. So my last MRI, um, was almost like everything was almost completely healed. My spinal lesions had healed, which was phenomenal for me. That was very encouraging to hear that the spinal lesions had healed. Um, I think there were two tiny minor very faint spots that were still, you know, but I'm like, there's still— I don't know, maybe it takes time for those to heal. But everything looks—

has a normal— no one has a normal MRI.

No one has a perfect MRI. And so it looked phenomenal, like, compared to my previous MRIs. It was amazing. They said— they just said, you're in remission.

And I said, good job, congratulations.

They don't, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a, hey, you're in remission, you know, you should really think about, you know, the potential of when your symptoms do come back and maybe we should get you on some drugs like as a preventative measure. And I'm like, okay, so you're telling me I have had zero symptoms in 5 years, no symptoms. I feel phenomenal. I literally, and most people, even if they're in remission, still have some residual symptoms like maybe a little bit of heat intolerance or a tiny bit of urinary incontinence or something, or a little bit of fatigue. I would say most people, I think it's something like, I don't know, like very high percentage, like 85 to 90% of people will experience fatigue for the rest of their life intermittently, even in between relapses, even when they're in remission. And so I have nothing, like I have literally nothing. I am living a normal life as I know it. Of course, I'm doing all the health things, but my life is completely normal. No symptoms, absolutely nothing. And they, they just think that that's just life. And I had asked the neurologist, I said, okay, so if I have no symptoms for 30 years, what are you going to say about my case? And he said, oh, I'm just going to say that yours was a very mild case, but you still have MS. And I was like, okay. So it's just the mindset is so different, um, with the doctors. And it has been very interesting to— so of course I don't need to go see a doctor, um, you know, at this point. And so, which has been phenomenal. And another really fun thing that has been kind of like, for me personally, a great verification is— we can talk about this on part 2— but I had at some point went back and did some neurofeedback stuff and worked with a practitioner who a QEEG brain scan on me. And when he got the results of my brain scan, you know, I had told him my medical history and all of the things that I had done. And he said, wow, your brain looks phenomenal. He said, if you had had MS or a neurological disorder, you would have visible brain inflammation, neuroinflammation. He's like, you have none. Like, your brain shows no neuroinflammation. So he was like, whatever you did, that is phenomenal. And so it is, yeah, it's been really cool. And I think one kind of last thing, and then I'll let you wrap up, but there was a point in my healing journey, um, and this was also just felt really incredible. So at when they tell you, when they talk to you about your symptoms, um, from a relapse or kind of like when you have initial symptoms, the doctor had told me that anything past 2 months would be permanent damage. So meaning that if I still had numbness past 2 months, or if I still had symptoms past 2 months, it would be permanent damage. And I would probably just need to live with that at that point. And so at 2 months, I had all my symptoms, was still numb, and of course cried because I'm like, this is awful. I go into the doctor and he said, okay, you're probably going to need to get used to this new normal. That's just kind of how life is now. And it took me 7 months to fully resolve the numbness. I was still after those 7 months resolving some other symptoms. But at 7, finally at 7 months, I was symptom-free and haven't had any of those symptoms return after that. And so it's been really incredible to see that the body can heal even more, I think, than what some people will tell you it can. And that was really encouraging to me.

Is there anything that you— well, what's the number one thing or the top things that you wish you could have changed about the way you were treated? Not in terms of modalities, not in terms of therapies you tried, protocols, but just the demeanor, the attitude, the way you were treated when you hit the regular medical system. From the moment you called or showed up at urgent care to these follow-up appointments, what would you have changed about the way you're a practitioner, has treated you?

I wish they had just been more empathetic. I think— I'm sure that for them it gets pretty monotonous, you know, especially if you're seeing patients who've been diagnosed with MS over and over. It just kind of feels— it's more like factual at that point. But for the person being diagnosed, it's so emotional. You think your whole life is just, you know, falling apart. And I just wish that someone had been a little bit more empathetic of like, you know, this is really hard. We understand this is really hard. We want to help you through this. You know, here are the things that we do see. You know, they do need to tell me some facts about potential outcomes. But I think even in the way of— even with like the— they had some certainty, but they also You know, they really said, we don't know what this looks like because it's so different for each person. But I think even with that, I wish that they would have given me a little bit more, I don't know, hope of like, it could be not as bad as you think it is. You know, it could be a mild case, which I don't know, maybe to them it feels like they're lying when they say that. I don't know, because so many people aren't a mild case, but it would have just been nice to have someone empathetic like just there with me to be on my team, say, we're gonna figure this out, we're gonna get you the best care. Um, because it felt like even at that time they were trying to funnel me into different clinical trials, and they were like, we're just gonna give you a random drug, and we're doing this clinical trial on this. And I'm like, is that the best thing for me, or is that the best thing for you? And so it just didn't feel they cared about me. And I wish that I had had a practitioner that cared and was on my team, even if he really thought that my case was doom and gloom and there was no hope. I just wish that someone had, I guess, emotionally been there for me because that's really what I needed at the time.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a couple things going on in the healthcare system that explain why this is happening. So number one, Uh, doctors not getting the message that something better is possible. Number 2, they're being trained to be unempathetic because unfortunately the medical industry attracts narcissists and psychopaths like food attracts flies. And people don't know that. They don't maybe want to hear that. They're— it's tough to accept normal people who have empathy, let alone empathetic people. Have a really difficult time wrapping their mind around how a brain that doesn't have empathy works. They'll feel this, you know, what is wrong with this person in front of me? Why don't they respond to any of my verbal or nonverbal cues? Why don't they ever seek to have a dialogue with me about feelings? All of it is about facts. They can deliver news like you're going to die or you're circling the drain, words I've used practitioners use in real-life conversations with patients, like it's just telling you the dishwasher is done. And it's shocking to normal people, but they have to realize that these people get sucked into or, or, or attracted to healthcare because it's a place where they can feed their ego and their power. And I mean, I just keep finding them and their patients keep finding me. Because they're finally ready to, and they're looking for a doctor who doesn't accept the sometimes, I mean, I think being kind is the absolute mediocrity of conventional and, and also a lot of what goes on in the unconventional world. You know, I have all these patients coming in from, from other clinics in the natural and integrative space who say, you know, I think those doctors are great. I think they, they mean well. They helped me with this, they helped me with that, but there were a lot of problems with how they approached it, which is why I, I not long ago decided, okay, if I'm really going to do this, if I'm really going to have a practice, I need to have a goal of 100% patient satisfaction. And that means having a real conversation, really making sure we're a good fit to work together, and also really being clear with them about expectations. And on the note of the doctors and how they were are frankly setting you up for failure with, you know, hey, this is what we see. It's dismal. It's doom and gloom. There's no hope. That is their experience because they don't and have never entertained or considered another way. You know, Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So to them, they're in integrity telling you that because it's all they see. And if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, what, what do I get? What's going to happen to me? The reality is that if you go that route, if you follow their advice, you're going to get their outcomes. And they're reinforcing their outcomes because they're telling everyone that there's nothing better. And then someone comes in and says, I've got something better, like Amy, and I've got the neurological neuroradiographic results to prove it. And they say, isn't that interesting? You know, uh, thank you for sharing. And maybe you should still get on these drugs, right? And this is about how the brain— human behavior— most people don't maintain a mental flexibility that is normal in a child or a teenager, young adult, which is why I think it's so important for doctors in training to hear these things, to get this message, to understand you're going to be indoctrinated into a way of doing things, and a better way may show up in your office one And if you don't have this cognitive flexibility, if you don't maintain it, you're going to say to that person, well, Amy, that's great. Good for you. And instead of passing on all that benefit to other people, you're just going to continue practicing whatever level of excellence or mediocrity you've been indoctrinated into.

Yeah. I mean, it is really interesting. And I think that it was shocking to me to see the medical system like that, because is when you're just a normal patient with normal things, you know, you go in. I feel like I had amazing doctors before that.

You weren't a normal patient. You were determined to become a doctor.

Yes, that is true. That is true. And that did change.

Not only does that mean you had more background in what was going on, but it also means that you were absolutely prepared to be blown away by a transformational experience. Even if the clinical outcome wasn't great, you were ready to be blown away by the empathy and the care the compassion and the understanding and the knowledge and just an experience of, I may be doomed, but the people around me care about me, are going to support me, and we're going to do everything we can to make sure that whatever my life looks like tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade, we meet it with as much grace and integrity and honor as possible. And instead, you get this really underwhelming, disillusioning, disappointing, frustrating— any other words I'm missing here?

No. Yeah, very, very disappointing. But I think before that I had had, you know, some pretty good experiences with doctors because I was going to go be one.

Of course.

So this was shocking. I was like, oh, this is so different. Not what I expected. You know, even for them to say, you know, yes, maybe you can do these things, you know, even though we're telling you these awful things, you know, maybe you can still try it, but we're going to have to put you on these crazy drugs. And, you know, you're just like, like, what is— like, you're just kind of like, the way that it's being presented is just, um, very like matter-of-fact, kind of like, this is how it is. I didn't feel— I felt very like, you know, you're just, uh, yeah, you're just another number in the system. We gotta get you through, figure it out. Um, and so that was just— that was very surprising to me, I guess, at that time, because I hadn't had that experience before. More.

So, right. And the last thing I would mention is how amazing it is that two people who you never met— or one of them you never met, one of them you met, you don't even remember their name— a simple conversation that you had with them really had a profound effect on your life. And the reason I think that's so important is that I think people go through life with this idea that all of their conversations are important and their words don't matter. And that is a terrible lie. And if you stick, frankly, stick with us on this podcast and you learn what we're going to teach you episode by episode, you know, topic by topic, you're going to learn how to have these transformational conversations with people whether they're ready for them or not. And I have to admit, on that note, it's rather rare for somebody like you to go through this and be open to these things. Most people have this terrible negativity and skepticism of, you know, well, this is just how it's gonna be, and what could it possibly matter what I say or what I do? And that's where, you know, modern medicine and the gross reductionist or gross materialist paradigm of healthcare has so lost touch and lost track of, I think, reality, which is so much more amazing, miraculous, and full of potential than they give it credit.

It's very true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I think one of the biggest things when I talk to people, because people will hear about my story and connect me with different people that have been diagnosed, and I think the biggest thing I tell them is there's hope. You know, I just— I, if anything, if I— even if I don't get to work with you or tell you, you know, how to take the next steps to heal or what to do, I just want you to know that there's hope. Hope. And if you really want to get better and heal, you can. You know, it's, it's a matter of figuring out like how to do that, but you can. And so just, there's hope. So I just love to give people hope, if anything.

Right. And people often struggle with that because the uncertainty of what hope there is is a big thing. Like, let's say that somebody listening to this is a 20-year MS patient who's open to the possibility that maybe their disease, their illness could be reversed, and they're in a wheelchair and they've been there for 10 years. It would be disingenuous to say, well, there's hope that you can heal in the sense that there's certainty that you can. There's no certainty. Part of your attitude that you made clear—

there's no certainty—

based on your faith is that you knew it might happen. And that if it didn't, you would accept it, but you were going to do everything possible to give yourself the best chance of living the life of your dreams.

Mm-hmm.

And that's very important because I see people coming in as well, hoping that not only will there be a quick fix, uh, but unwilling to accept some of the compromises that are required in terms of your diet, your lifestyle, how you live your life, the choices you make, Because it really is fundamentally a significant change in how you live your day-to-day life, which we'll get to in part 2. But, you know, I'm never— I'm never— I don't ever feel that I can in good conscience tell someone that there's no hope or that we can't do something. But I also am always clear with them that just because I'm not willing to accept defeat I don't know what the odds are of their recovery, and they need to know that I'm not selling them like a false certainty of hope, if that makes sense.

Absolutely.

Any last thoughts, Amy, before we wrap it up?

I think that's good for right now. I will cover the rest of it in part 2.

Absolutely. Thank you everyone for joining us. Please remember to like, share, comment, subscribe. Leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts, and we look forward to seeing you all on the next episode.