Stories of Hope & Healing: Meredith Oke Part I

Welcome to Integrative Medicine with Dr. Leland Stillman, the podcast where we explore the best of East and West, old and new, conventional and unconventional, in search of answers to medicine's toughest cases and most difficult problems. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Diagnostics and therapeutics discussed on this podcast may or may not be right for you, so talk to a qualified practitioner before taking action based on what you learn here. If you'd like to become a patient at my practice, go to stillmanmd.com to schedule a complimentary discovery call. Thank you for listening and welcome to today's episode. Good morning, everyone. Dr. Stillman here. I am delighted to be joined by my good friend and collaborator Meredith Oak. Meredith, thank you for joining me.

Dr. Stillman, thank you for starting a podcast. I think this is wonderful and I'm happy to be here.

So glad to hear it. Meredith is the founder of the Quantum Biology Collective and the host of the Quantum Biology Collective podcast. She is a new paradigm Business Coach that's launching this Friday. It's early March, so it'll be ready by the time you're listening to this. And Meredith, you were a successful executive coach and mom, and then you had a health crisis, and now you have a remarkable story of hope and healing, which is what we're here to talk about on this episode of Stories of Hope, Stories of Healing. So Meredith, I like to start by asking everyone who they are and where they're from.

So my name is Meredith Oak. I am from Toronto, Canada. Uh, spent most of my childhood there and have also lived in Asia and Europe and on the West Coast of the US, the East Coast, spent a year in the South and a year in the Midwest. So I have like a real— I really, uh, love America because I feel like I've really gotten to know it and people from all the different places. But I also lived in lots of other places, and I'm not American, so I don't really know where I'm from anymore.

You're a citizen of world, perhaps.

But, uh, currently living, um, in New York State, about an hour north of Manhattan.

And you were a busy executive coach and mother, and then you had a health crisis. Tell us about it.

Yeah, so we were, we were living overseas, and where, uh, at the time when this all went down, we were living in Hong Kong. So I had moved from Toronto to Hong Kong with two little babies, one baby, one preschooler, um, and we moved there for my husband's job. And it was just a life-changing, amazing experience. However, there were, uh, consequences of the way that I was living and things that I stopped paying attention to, um, because I was so busy, you know, living in a totally new culture and having a different you know, there's a lot to adjust to. So there were things that I probably was paying more attention to when I lived at home that I wasn't when I moved overseas. Um, and the combined effects of that were that I started to feel an increasing level of fatigue that didn't seem to be remedied by sleeping, which was confusing to me because, um, I, you know, as I mentioned, like, I had these two little children, and so I had that phase of life where you have a baby and then a toddler and then a toddler and a baby and then a toddler and preschooler. So I was used to sleep deficits and I knew what it felt like to be sleep deprived and the, the way that you felt when you were tired from not getting enough sleep. And the remedy was always to get some sleep and then I would feel better. So fast forward 5 years, those little babies are like age 5 and 7. And it's not working. Like, the fatigue is like that feeling of like your battery being drained, and it's a different feeling than not getting enough sleep. And I really like to articulate that because I know a lot of women— and I was told this too— it's like, well, of course you're tired, you have a baby, of course you're tired, there's this, of course you're tired, there's that. And it's like, I didn't know enough to be able to differentiate And I think it's really important 'cause when I say this, women who experience fatigue are like, "Oh yeah, totally. It's totally different than sleep deprivation." So I really like to highlight that because of course that's wherever, you know, most people's minds go when you say you're tired all the time. But that wasn't actually what was happening. I mean, I came to understand over time that my mitochondria were dysfunctional, but at the time it was like, okay, I would, and then I would do all of the things that I had kind of, that were sort of like the popular things to do when you're, you know, when you don't have enough energy, which was to try and get more sleep, didn't help, try and exercise. So I would do like a really challenging fitness class with like super high intensity and then I would get through it, but then for like 3 days after I would have no energy. And it was this kind of rollercoaster where I, I was never, sometimes it'd be okay and sometimes I'd be like flat out. And then I decided to have a third baby, which was like the best decision of my life. However, when you have what I learned later was probably a form of chronic fatigue, and then you get pregnant, and then you don't change any of the things that are causing the chronic fatigue, the crash is significant. So I recall like when Twyla was a newborn. Like, I remember walking down the street and using all my willpower just to get one foot in front of the other. I was like, the fatigue was so extreme, and I was trying to get to, I think, a doctor's appointment actually. And I was like, okay, okay, just take one more step. Okay, one more step. And like, that's how tired I was, um, for no discernible reason that I could find at that time.

How did this impact your life?

You know, it impacts in all kinds of ways, right? Like, it impacts your relationships because you're just like zoned out. It impacts your self-esteem because you feel, you know, you kind of feel like— and I know a lot of us feel like this— is like, what am I doing wrong? Like, what's wrong with me? And when nobody has a clear answer, like, the only person who who helped me see it. I went to an acupuncturist and he was like, there's something— your energy, like there's something wrong. And he's like, I don't know what it is, but there's something off. And that helped me feel better because I'm like, okay, I'm not just like this person who can't, you know, who can't get it together to do anything. You know, you have to give up a lot, like when you don't have enough energy to do your day. You have to start sacrificing things that are important to you. You know, like I needed like 10 hours of sleep. So that's a lot, you know, I mean, I still like 9, but still that extra hour, you know, like 8 or 9. But to like organize your life to get that much sleep and then still wake up feeling tired, it's demoralizing. And then I would, I kind of refused to give in. I'm a little stubborn. So I would do things like I would go on a ski trip with, a toddler and 2 children and ski every day for 5 days, come back, and like literally had no energy for a week. Like, I would have to sort of lie down on the couch. I perfected this technique that I made up where I would, I would set my timer 5 minutes and lie down on the couch and just let my body shut down for 5 minutes and then, um, get back up. So then, then that would give me a couple more hours. Before I needed to do it again.

This obviously caused significant distress. When did you start to seek help?

So I was seeking help kind of throughout, but it was especially in the beginning. It's one of those things where, like, you know, my, my OB ran all my labs and was like, your labs are fine. Okay, thanks. I feel terrible, but okay. And then I went to, um, a woman who did a lot with like food and supplements, and she gave me some treatments for, uh, you know, a potential parasite and things like that. And that helped, that really helped. Um, then we moved again, and this time we moved to France, and I didn't really know how to— you know, France is a bit weird, and so I didn't really seek any help. I just like dealt with it myself. And, uh, it would like kind of come and go. And I didn't, you know, when we did move to France, I started to feel better. In Hong Kong, we lived in a high-rise. It's like really, really hot and humid there, so you always have your windows shut, you always have lights on, you always have, you know, you have all your routers and all your stuff. And like, there was, there was a lot of seed oils. Um, I think I even had seed oils in my kitchen, which I'd never had before, because it was just part of the culture there. Like, that's just what people cook with, and I didn't really think about it. So, so things. Just by changing location, a lot of those things got remedied, right? Like, the food in France is amazing. Everyone uses real butter. Um, we were living in a house on the ground. I could go outside more often. The wet— that's— the climate was a bit more temperate, so, you know, you were— you could have windows open, and I was moving around more and things like that. Um, so that helped, but it still was like this total roller coaster. And to be honest, I just dealt with it like for years. And there would be days where I'd just be like, I don't know how I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. And then I would power through with willpower and my 5-minute resets.

How many years?

Like 4. Okay. And I would, I would have periods of being okay, and then I would just get overcome with just like such terrible brain fog. And then I wanted to be moving forward with my life, so I pushed myself to move forward, and then I would it would get worse. There was one time I went to the airport and I left— I was— I had a carry-on, like a rolly carry-on. I was just going away for the weekend and I, I left my carry-on in the airport. Like, I got on the plane with just my handbag and I did the whole flight and the flight landed and as soon as we touched the ground I was like Oh my God, I left my suitcase in the airport. And it was like, that's the kind of brain fog I had. Like that I would do things like that all the time. And then I'd have spurts of being really productive and people would be like, oh my God, you're like, this is great. And then I'd just like sink back down into the brain fog.

Were you still working? Yes.

So I was working. Yeah. On and off. I worked, I did a lot of freelance work. Um, but there was a period in there where, yeah, I had a full-time job doing, um, career coaching at an international, um, business school. And yeah, would go do that, come home, do this stuff. And I would go to put, um, my daughter, who was like 2 at the time, I would go upstairs to put her to bed, you know, like 7:30 or 8 o'clock. And my son, who was like 6 at the time, he'd be like, Mama, are you going to come back down this time? Because I'm going to go to put the toddler to bed and fall asleep with her.

That's precious.

Yeah, that, that's what I was like, oh gosh, I'm really missing out on some stuff with this.

And what happened next?

You know, basically I hit the wall. I hit the wall and I had this moment where I was in my kitchen and I'd ordered a spiralizer. To turn zucchini into spaghetti because I'm like, okay, it's the food, it's the food. Everyone says it's the food.

And I was like, what year was this?

This was 2017 or '18.

Food was very much in vogue then. Yeah, it isn't now, but boy, is there a lot more that we have popularized and brought into more of the mainstream consciousness and increasingly so.

Yes. And you're so right that at that point it was— and keto was really big and keto was great. I'm not knocking keto. I know there— I've seen so many studies on its benefits for lots and lots of different things, but, um, it doesn't fix chronic fatigue, uh, on its own anyway. So I was sitting with the spiralizer, and I don't really enjoy like micromanaging food. Like, I really— I'm— I don't enjoy micromanaging anything. I have like a soft form of ADD. I'm a very big picture person. I like to see the vision. I like to see like what's going on. So to like sit there and measure things and get all wrapped up. And, and like being keto in France also sucks. Like the bread there is so good. So like I'm sitting with this spiralizer and all the, all the keto mommy bloggers are like, it's like spaghetti, your kids will love it. I'm like, they will not love it. They don't want this. They will not eat it. I don't wanna make it. Like, and I just, it was, I know for this was just my personal tipping point. Everyone has a different one, right? And I'm like sitting with this like, like plastic box to turn my zucchini into spaghetti. And I'm like, I don't want to do this. And what is happening? And I can't get through my day. Like, I can't— like, what is— what is this? I refuse to accept this as the rest of my life. And also, like, I've done all the things. So I had a moment in my kitchen. I'm like, I know— like, there's one thing I know from being a coach, from having you know, a spiritual life is that there's always a solution. I just haven't found it yet. There's always something else out there. It's never the end. But it felt like the end. So I'm like, okay, it feels like the end, but I know it's not. I feel like I've tried all the things, but I know there must be something else. And I just like got quiet and I'm like, okay, higher power, show me, give me a clue, give me something to work with, because like I'm done. And I flashed back to an interview that I had watched like the year before that I was like, oh, that was interesting. And it was about the importance of light, circadian rhythms, sunrise, the dangers of blue light at night. And I was like, it just had this flat— I just had this memory of that interview. So I went back and I watched it again and I was like, Oh, I'm doing all of the bad things. Like, I was reading before bed on my iPad. Um, and so that led me down a rabbit hole because, you know, like, I'm not saying circadian rhythms cure everything, but it's pretty foundational. And if you've got that screwed up, it's really hard to feel better, right? Like, we now know this. Nobody knew that. And that— I'm starting to understand that then led me to understand the idea of, like, of mitochondrial dysfunction, which is like like, you know, for the layperson, like, right, like my battery couldn't hold a charge. And that idea was the, was the beginning of being able to truly understand how to move forward and find people like you who understood that, right? But I don't even know what kind of doctor to look for because I didn't even really understand what was going on. Um, and so that moment really opened things up for me. And it was still, you know, to to get my full energy back was from there was still a couple of years, but I, I saw progress and I felt like I was like I, I had something that could explain and help me.

What year was this?

That was 2018.

So this really started in when? 2012.

2012. Yeah.

Okay. And then it was off and on, up and down, very based on location. Did you ever put together that it varied based on the location?

Mostly in hindsight, but a little bit, yes. I did notice that I just felt better living closer to the ground and not living— we lived on the 28th floor. And as I said, the way the climate is, you have your aircon on all the time, so everything's sealed up. So you're sort of sealed up in this super high box. And I did definitely notice a difference when, when we moved. But it didn't, you know, gave me some clues, but it's still— I still didn't really understand what was going on or why, because it was so uneven.

Although remarkably, Hong Kong actually has a, I think, a pretty long life expectancy. I don't know what it is off the top of my head, but I've heard that.

So what— here's what's interesting. It's funny you mentioned that. When we first arrived there you know, you arrive and you're like completely jet-lagged because it's a 12-hour time difference. So we were out walking around, um, we stayed like— we didn't live right in the, in the main part of the city, um, but we stayed in a hotel there when we first arrived, and we were out walking around, and everybody over 50 is out in a park doing tai chi at sunrise. You know, they do eat a lot of local food, it has seed oils in it, but yeah, there are some cert— there are certain practices in there, right? Like and you go to the parks and all of the parks have this equipment for old people to move. Like, not like weightlifting, but just like little things to like cycle your arms or make your legs go. And it's all outside and it's a totally normal habitual thing to do for, for Hong Kong Chinese to do those practices. So yeah, it's super interesting.

You said something very important. You said that based on your background in coaching you knew that you hadn't tried all the things, even though it felt like you had, and there had to be a way, even though you didn't know what it was.

Yes.

Tell me more about how your experience with coaching gave you that perspective.

So I think that for whatever reason, our minds get trained, whether it's, you know, through education systems, through just through our culture, our minds get trained to narrow in on really specific things and feel like that's the end of the story. And previous to becoming a coach, I had like some personal experiences where, you know, to be totally honest, I don't know if I've ever talked about this on a podcast, but like my life, like it went off the rails, like in a very significantly bad way. And I needed to find a way back. And finding a way back from that kind of bottom, right? Like, you have— I had to let go of a lot of habitual ways of seeing the world, and I had to trust that something else was possible, even though it didn't feel like that was true at all. But once you start to trust that something else might be possible, other things become possible. And then you— I spent time with other people who are on that same journey, and it just became very clear to me that there's, you know, I saw with my own eyes, I experienced it with my own, in my own life. I had people around me experiencing the same thing. Like, the idea that there's an end is never true. All we need to do is to find the curiosity or the hope or the, uh, you know, whatever. I feel like God will use whatever is in you to, to move you forward. Like, for me, I was like a huge people pleaser, and I really worried what people thought about me. So I was like, I can't have my life fall apart, it looks bad. And I like, I don't really, I'm not like that anymore, but my higher power used that quality in me to get me to get the help I needed. So there's, oh, whatever the motivation is, there's always a path that just might not be clear. And so I, when I became a coach, it's like, that's sort of the, for me, the foundation of the coaching, right? Like, I don't know what someone, my client's path is. But they do. They just need some help getting this stuff out of the way to see it.

Absolutely. And that is actually how the reticular activating system works. When you tell it there's a way and you can do it, it starts to notice the things in your environment that will create or open that way. And that is why the first thing I look for in people's language as a physician is you know, a language of personal empowerment, sovereignty, possibility? Do they use disabling hypnotic language? I have chronic Lyme disease. I have chronic fatigue syndrome. I am a diabetic. And it's, it's funny, Amy and I, in her episode that's going to be coming out next week, we sort of joked about the fact that she, recovering from multiple sclerosis, which is in full remission, as we talk about in her episode, part 1 and part 2. She sort of gaslit her way to wellness, saying, I am healthy, I am well, even when she's got raging multiple sclerosis symptoms. And it's a recurring theme in my experience with people who succeed at anything—business, wellness, relationships. Any of the things that matter in life. They have this almost irrational perspective that, well, it doesn't matter what 999 out of 1,000 people get in terms of an outcome. It's not that there's a 99.9% chance of that outcome. It's that if I do what the 0.1% of people who get the outcome I want do, I will get that outcome.

And that's why I, not in every situation, but in some situations, hate statistics. Because it's like, oh, you have such and such an addiction. The recovery rate on that is only 12%. And it's like, okay, but you know what? I get to choose if I'm in that 12%. This is not like I roll the dice. And there's a 12% chance it lands on recovered, right? Like, I am the dice. I get to choose. And this— I have seen this be true for everything. And there's like a slight fine line because, you know, my story involved addiction. And so we can't be in denial, right? It's like, you can't— like, if you're like, oh, I'm healthy, and then you don't do anything, I'm fine, and then you don't do anything, you're in denial. If you're like, oh, apparently I have a pretty bad addiction problem. Okay, I'm not gonna let that define my life. Like, what do I do to be in the whatever percent of people who get over this? Exactly what you're saying. It's like, just 'cause it's a small number doesn't mean we don't have access to it. And that's like part of the way that we talk about things that make us feel like we're at the end. Is that no one ever says that. Or even, or right now everyone's talking about how trauma is the source of so many things. And it's like, yes, and you can heal from it. But like, if you don't add that and, it just feels like, well, I had this trauma, I guess I'm screwed for life, right? So yes, I am totally on board with this approach.

I'm very fond of quoting Han Solo who says, I think multiple times to see C-3PO, who's always quoting him the statistics. He just says, "Never tell me the odds." Yeah, because what are they?

They're just a backwards look at something that for the most part we have control of. I don't know if you're talking about the weather or something, that might be different. But like for something where there's an outcome that came from my participation, Yeah, like the odds don't mean anything to me. I don't care.

I'm going to resist the temptation to get into conversations about weather control on this podcast.

I know, as soon as I said that, I was like, oh boy. But from a, from a personal perspective. Yes.

Well, even from that perspective, because I, for example, now we're going there. Okay. All right. I have a friend. We'll go. I have a friend who will remain nameless because he's asked me to, to maintain his anonymity. Who runs a Facebook page about weather modification. And he's got something like 2 million subscribers. And he just decided to do something. Yes. And that's what I think is so cool about the internet and social media. Yeah, it creates this opportunity. If you really believe, if you really are inspired, and if you're consistent, and you chase it. And same thing with your wellness, you can do these amazing things. And so on that note, back to your story. You have this perspective and then you started to seek guidance from someone who knew more about it than you, who knew, you know, all these things. What happened then?

Yeah. So I started to find people and information that were adding a whole new— it was like partly a missing piece, which was that I didn't understand how foundational light is to human health. So that was like a missing piece. But then there was what I, I found myself in like an entirely new paradigm. And I had always been somebody who was open and engaged with the idea of energy medicine, psychics, intuitive healing, homeopathic remedies. I'd done a whole— I did a constitutional homeopathic remedy series when I was like 26 years old. Like I was very open to that, but I never really understood how it worked. And I always saw it as like kind of separate from other things. And so what I started to understand about light— well, first of all, I was like, why doesn't everyone know this? This is insane, right? Like, this is as important as understanding the effects of smoking or eating junk food. Um, but then the second piece was that it like opened up this whole new paradigm. And it's like, okay, so if If light is so important to my biology, like, what does that mean about traditional biology that doesn't acknowledge that at all? And it's like, oh, and then it opened up this whole new idea of the fact that we're actually quantum beings and not machines. And then I'm like, oh, and that's why the homeopathy. Oh, and that's why the acupuncture. Oh, and that's why the meditation. Oh, and that's why cleaning up my— cleaning up trauma has, like, makes me feel better physically, right? Like, and it all started come together. And so that, having that framework and seeing, hearing people talk about it and learning about it, that was in itself deeply healing because it was like, oh, right. It's sort of, it was the opposite. Like when, you know, I was really in the bottom, it was like, I would describe it as kind of like looking at life through a straw. Like that was kind of the extent of my aperture. It was like, I just, all I can see is is through this tiny little lens and what I see is terrible. And then as you recover, like your, your aperture widens. And so I felt like when I engaged with this concept of light and then even under circadian rhythm and then even underneath that quantum biology, it was like my aperture widened so much and it was extremely freeing and fun. Also very annoying because I'm an English major and there's a lot of science. And I'm like, what? What is this? Can someone just tell me what to do. So now, so then I was excited to find a doctor that could, which was you.

Let's talk about that before we get into that. So it sounds like you were gathering information, you were hearing a lot of science, you were hearing a lot of theory, a lot of— and I look at this in a, in a quadrant that I actually like to talk to patients about. So there's being— there's the problem, which gets you aware of, you know, concepts and looking for information because you want to solve it. Then there's the philosophy of solving the problem or looking at the problem. And there's the details. And so if we're using, and then the fourth quadrant, I need to wrap that up, is the solution. So what's interesting about it is a lot of the info out there lives in three of those quadrants. Like I'm going to use chronic fatigue as an example, because it's the diagnosis you were handed. So the problem is I'm tired all the time. The philosophy is, well, the body makes energy out of this and that and the other thing. And so you need all these different things in different quantities and different times in order to make the energy that makes you feel energetic, right? And normal and be able to function, right? And then there's the details of like, well, here's the milligrams and the doses and here, this enzyme is called this and it lives in this cell and it does this thing and it plays in this interaction with this thing and this other thing over here. And people get totally lost in these three quadrants. And I find that 90% of the infotainment out there, podcasts, articles, webinars, et cetera, is guilty of just living in these three. And they will move over to the solutions piece, you know, sometimes and occasionally. And what I find really interesting about it is a lot of the people who have the most traction, the loudest voice, the biggest platform. They get there by just living in those three quadrants. And when you ask them for solutions to people's problems, they have almost nothing to offer, which is very frustrating as a consumer, a patient. I have to tell you, it's also frustrating as a clinician. And part of why I wanted to create this podcast is that I just see clinicians talking about the problem and the philosophy and the details, and I'm as passionate about all that as anyone. But I really have to say, after 10 years of practicing, and 20 years in integrative natural functional medicine, whatever you want to brand it as, I really care most about zeroing in on the solutions and providing them efficiently and effectively. And I'm happy to wax eloquent about the problem, the philosophy, and the details later. But if we're not going to get people better now, I'm just not that interested. And I find that really amazing about the info space.

Yes. And that was, that was where I was lost. And I'm like, okay, like, I understand all of these new concepts now, so what do I do? Right? And no one could give me an answer. So I'm a little extreme. So I started an organization to teach people this stuff so they could just go and help people with practical solutions. Like, not every— you know, that's— I acknowledge that is my extreme entrepreneur personality. However, Yeah, if that— if there had been someone who could have just said, here's what you need to do and here's why you need to do it. And here's, you know, if you want some studies, that's fine. They're there. But here, like, I would have been like, great, thank you. That's because, yes, that's what most people need. And I was talking to someone about this the other day and I was like, listen, you're looking for clients. The clients you want to look for are people who are trying to live their lives but they're being held back by a health issue and they need someone to help them continue it so they continue to live their lives. Don't go after the people whose whole life is learning about wellness on podcasts, because that's a different— that's a different person, right? And that is a— that's a fine path. I love it. I think most people listen to my podcast are in that path. It's wonderful, but it's— but it's like you can get lost in there if it's just a continuous philosophical conversation or, oh, there's now it's this supplement. And I remember you on one of the Q&As on the certification, someone was like, I was listening to a podcast and talking about this supplement and they said this. And you were like, listen, podcasts are sponsored by supplement companies. There's always gonna be a new supplement. She was like, oh, okay.

So let's talk about next. You started looking for practitioners, and I'm actually quite curious, you, you really felt like it was just— there was no one out there? There was no one out there.

There was— if you wanted someone who understood how to get into the weeds of your situation and not just give you, like you were saying, not just like give you the high-level stuff, which is great, right? But it's like, okay, now I understand the high-level stuff. I need someone to get into the weeds of what is specifically going on with me. Because, you know, and unless it's just like you're kind of— you're going from pretty good to great, like I've seen people do that on their own, but I don't see people who've like have some kind of longer-term health issue, like they tend to you know, you need help from somebody most of the time. And I couldn't find anyone who both understood the quadrants you were talking about and had the— and was— would— had a practice where they could like get into my specific situation and figure out what I, Meredith, needed to do, not just the big picture stuff.

Now, at the same time, when you first developed this illness, the functional medicine movement was well underway. They were training so many practitioners. The space was exploding in terms of popularity. It has continued to grow very much as an industry. Why not go to the functional medicine doctor down the street, or the integrative health practitioner, or the natural, or the holistic, or the environmental? There's so many people doing natural and integrative medicine, which is what I tend to call it, privately, or I guess now publicly on this podcast. Anyway, there's so many people doing it. Why didn't you think, well, these people can help me?

I tried, then they didn't— I didn't get better. What did you try? So I did the food, I did the supplements, I did the acupuncture, I did the meditation, I did, you know, I did all of the things, but I didn't do it with someone who saw the whole picture, right? Like, they had their piece, and their piece was helpful, but not in isolation. And so even a lot of the natural health people, right, like, they, they still look at you as kind of a machine, and it's like, okay, you're deficient in this and you have this, I'm gonna give you— right? Like, oh, you don't have energy, I'm going to give you this supplement for energy. And it's like, okay, but if my battery's not operating, like, what's the point of that? And I hear you, like, I— supplements are definitely useful. But we, you know, that paradigm you're talking about in the 2010s, like, that was the paradigm, right? Like, there's a supplement for everything, and it's food and supplement, food and supplement, food and supplement. Like, that was, that was that. And your approach is not like that, right? Like, your approach is, is like, yes, I I use supplements for a specific reason, for a specific amount of time until your body comes back online to be able to do what it needs to do. And I didn't find that. Like, I didn't find anyone who had that way of looking at it that fit all the pieces together. I'm not saying they didn't exist. Maybe they did. But it's like once you go down the light rabbit hole and then you go to someone who's like, yeah, I guess. I mean, she want to watch those. You want to go outside in the morning? Sure. That's fine. Like, won't hurt. I'm like, No, I need you to understand how important that is. And that person in 2019, the late 20-teens, like that person, I don't know, they weren't there. They're there now.

There are more of them there now. I had the same experience looking for a mentor. Yes. And that's a whole nother story. And it was why I couldn't, you know, I never did anything I did very little integrative medicine training with the big groups that were operating when I got out of residency, and it was a very interesting experience. I went to their conferences excited to finally be able to afford the time and the money now that I was no longer a resident making, you know, $54,000 a year and working 12 days on, 2 days off in a hospital where you don't even have time to go to a conference even if you want to spend the money. I would go to these conferences and I'll actually never forget this. I was talking to a leading national mold expert and he's talking about all these supplements and how he gets his mold patients better with this and that and the other thing. And it's kind of a dismal, well, you've gotta take all these supplements. You have to take all these binders and you have to take 'em at the right time. You've gotta take 'em away from the supplements and you can't eat this and you can't eat that. And you have to do this and you have to do that. It's gonna take 2 years and that's if you're lucky and you've gotta do quarterly lab testing and they're gonna be hundreds of dollars. I'm like, oh my gosh. It's exhausting just listening to you. And I'd been learning about light and things like that. And I just said to him, hey, do you do any counseling to your patients about circadian rhythms, light, light therapy, EMF? Because all of the symptoms of mold toxicity are, newsflash, also potential symptoms of EMF toxicity or toxic artificial light exposure and circadian dysrhythmias. And he just had this sort of blank, like No. What is that? And I'm like, you have all the time and money in the world. You're 20 or 30 years ahead of me in your career and you haven't even bothered to learn how light, one of the fundamental forces of the physical universe we live in, affects biology and health. What is wrong with you? Why do you not view this as maybe a very important thing that you should know at least something about, right? That was how I felt as a clinician in this paradigm of all these— and I love them to pieces. They're my friends, they're my colleagues. But I have this kind of love-hate relationship with a lot of them because they just get so focused on whatever their thing is, right? And, and there's a, there's a beauty to that because if I need someone who has injected 10,000 prostates with ozone, I thank goodness that they've done it 10,000 times and they know how to do it without puncturing someone's bladder, right? But at the same time, I don't need that every day. I've never referred for that. Maybe one day I will. I mean, I'm sure one day I will because it is— there's tons of utility to procedures. But at the same time, I looked at the, at the, the landscape. At the same time you were dealing with these illnesses, I was going through this. I just thought, why is there no one putting all the pieces of the puzzle together? It's not that big of a puzzle. All of the levers, all of the tools, all of the forces are covered in a high school physics, chemistry, biology course. Everyone's been familiarized with these concepts, and yet everyone just gets into their— you know, they become a scalpel jockey and all they do is go to the OR. They become an internist and all they do is prescribe medicine. They become a homeopath and all they do is homeopathics. They become a— you know, they do laser medicine or, or, you know, dermatology, and that's all they do. And it's— it was totally bizarre to me that no one had the curiosity to try and know everything, which is my problem. It can be a problem.

And that's sort of what, what I've become passionate about, right? It's, it's like if you, if you just understand the paradigm that you're doing those things in, then even if you're specialized, your framework is going to be truly holistic and you're going to understand, right? So even if I'm like an integrative, a functional medicine doctor who prescribes medicine and someone comes in and says, I'm going to get my biofield tuned, you can be like, that's a great idea, right? Like, because you have some— a foundation, like you have a paradigm that acknowledges all of these pieces, even if you don't focus on them. And that, I think, is what we're currently in the absolute middle of, like all of us together, like as patients, as as, you know, entrepreneurs, as doctors, it's like we're like in the turmoil of that shift where we are truly opening up to like a science-based paradigm that acknowledges that physics is part of biology and all of, all of the parts of the universe that you just talked about are affecting our biology all the time.

So how did you find me and then decide to reach out?

What prompted you to reach out? Someone shared a blog post that you wrote, and your blog post was about the importance of light. And I was like, oh my God, there's a doctor who does all the, like, all the, you know, functional stuff but gets it. And so that's— so then I reached out, and I remember because you're— I don't know if it's like this still, but like, your intake was robust. I was doing diaries of my sounds, of the sounds in my life for, you know, the emotional aspects of my life, like all of the things. And so that, that was how I found you was through that blog post. And that was why I followed up because I was like, okay, because I, you know, I'm not just like, oh, it's just this. It's true. You know, like, who needs doctors? Like, no, we need doctors. We should need doctors who don't have their heads up their ass.

And so then what was the experience after that? What happened?

So before, I was talking about someone like getting in the weeds to be like, to like get to like the specifics of my personal situation, understanding all of these principles, but then figuring out like what I personally needed to do. And so that's, that is what we did together when I started working with you in 2020, is like I finally found someone who could marry all four of the quadrants that you talked about, right? Like, you had an understanding of all of the things that I felt needed to be understood by someone who's going to be effective in treating me from a health perspective. Um, and you also, like, had the training and the time and the inclination to, like, get in the weeds. You weren't just, like, out, like, giving talks, giving talks and doing podcasts. Like, you were like actually working with patients and figuring out those things. So yeah, we did do some supplements. We did, you know, like there was lots, lots of things that came together for my personal situation. And that was like a huge turning point. You know, I'd gotten, I'd gotten probably 60% of the way there on my own with my own research, but I didn't, I didn't get to the point where I can, where I am now, where I can wake up in the morning and most of the time have a normal day and not worry that my battery's gonna drain partway through without having to take a bunch of supplements or do a bunch of complicated biohacks.

Yeah. What was the experience like in terms of— because you've mentioned this multiple times, that it was nice to have someone just saying, well, you've got to do this, this, and this. What were the things that we did that I recommended that you feel made the biggest difference beyond obviously what you were already doing because you'd already been introduced to this new paradigm?

Well, I think even though I was already doing some of it, having it reinforced by my practitioner really helped, right? Like, and I, and that's something I actually really wanted to talk about is I think that a lot of the time people give up on, um, a lot of things, anything really that any kind of change because we don't have enough support. And if you're doing stuff that no one in your life is doing and you don't have somebody who connected to you who's explicitly there to support you through that, it's really, really hard. So that I think was a key, was a key piece of it. And I think that that's key for anybody making any kind of change, whether you're trying to learn a new language or recover from an addiction or recover from a health situation or, you know, homeschool your children. I don't do that, right? But like, it's very hard to do things alone that are going against the grain of what's around you. And so that support and just knowing like, I have someone I trust who knows what's going on with me. If they're gonna ask me to do something, I'm gonna do it. And, and they're also helping me to, to trust myself.

You mentioned that taking supplements previously with practitioners failed. Did you ever have the experience of looking at your supplement cabinet and thinking, I have an overwhelming number of things to take, this is ridiculous and I should stop? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What was it like working with me? So that was the—

so that my other experience with supplements, right, is like people will be like, okay, take this and take this and do that. And I'd be like, why? For how long? What? No one would ever really answer. They'd be like, well, we did all these tests and you need all these things. Whereas with you, you were— it was like, okay, you need to take this for 3 months and then we're gonna check again and probably you won't need it anymore, right? Like, it was for a specific reason to help my body do a specific thing that it wasn't currently doing without help. And then I would— like, the goal was to not need it anymore, whereas before I felt like it was just— it was like going on life— lifetime medication, but but with natural stuff. So that to me, that just made so much sense to me. And I was like, okay, I can understand like how that works. And that made me more compliant because that was the other thing. I just take these forever, like forget that. And I didn't take them at all.

You know, I like to say Niels Bohr, quantum physicist, said this. He said, the expert— an expert is merely someone who has made all of the mistakes possible within a very narrow field. So I too have had the experience of a practitioner saying, well, you got to take this and you got to take that and you got to take that. There's a long list of things. And the next thing you know, you're like, you know, I need to check a bag just for my supplements. Am I doing something wrong? Is this— I should— maybe I should rethink this. Yes. And then I went to the other extreme, which was I can eat anything I want because it's all about light and energy and I can not take any supplements and I'll be fine. And, you know, now I'm in this happy medium where— and I love what you said, you said the goal was for you to not need the supplements anymore. And that reminds me of my favorite quote by Hippocrates: the greatest medicine of all is teaching people how not to need it. I hope we can do a part 2 because we only are up to 2020.

We're only up to 2020. Yeah, and there's so many things. I mean, there's— yeah, like a whole new level of phototherapy that has changed my life, removed brain fog I didn't even know I had. Like, what?

I can't wait to talk about it on part 2. It's gonna be good. All right, Meredith, thank you for joining me, and we will get part 2 scheduled. Thank you everyone for joining us today. We hope you look forward to part 2 as much as we do.