The Hidden Root Causes of Autoimmunity That No One Is Looking For

Welcome to Integrative Medicine with Dr. Leland Stillman, the podcast where we explore the best of East and West, old and new, conventional and unconventional, in search of answers to medicine's toughest cases and most difficult problems. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Diagnostics and therapeutics discussed on this podcast may or may not be right for you, so talk to a qualified practitioner before taking action based on what you learn here. If you'd like to become a patient at my practice, go to stillmanmd.com to schedule a complimentary discovery call. Thank you for listening and welcome to today's episode. Hello everyone. Dr. Stillman back with Amy Arp for another exciting episode of our Autoimmunity Masterclass series. Hello Amy, how are you this morning?

Wonderful. How about yourself?

I'm great. Let's jump in. We're talking about the hidden causes of autoimmunity. So I think this is one of the most important things we're going to cover. And this is very much, I would say, taboo in the conventional medical space. If you ask the conventional medical community what causes autoimmunity, you'll get a lot of hand-waving, kind of like, it's the environment and it's this and it's that. And then you say, well, what can we do about it? And they'll sort of say nothing, take these drugs for the rest of your life. You might need surgery. You might need a wheelchair. You might need a mechanical ventilator, period.

All the things.

All the things. Right. And that hasn't, let's just say that hasn't been our experience.

Exactly. It's so true. It's so true. And this episode really could change how you think about healing from autoimmune disease.

Right. And so I go back to some basic numbers. The prevalence of autoimmunity is increasing by 19% per year, which is insane. It used to be very rare. It's now increasingly common. And it's not that any one thing is causing or triggering autoimmunity. It's that many things together tend to do it. And the analogy I'll draw for patients is because people are looking for a smoking gun. They're looking for a, well, I had a mercury amalgam and it gave me multiple sclerosis, or I cooked in Teflon-coated cookware and it gave me Crohn's, or I walked by a diesel engine and it gave me multiple chemical sensitivity, right? And sometimes there's a trigger for an illness, like somebody gets their mercury amalgams removed unsafely and they develop some horrible illness that may or may not be autoimmune. Or they have a terrible chemical exposure and they become very ill. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but in general, for the vast majority of consumers, they don't have a big toxic exposure or stressful life event that they can tie their illness back to, autoimmune or otherwise. And the way to think about this, and the analogy I'll draw for patients, is think less about the smoking gun, because even if you're thinking about a smoking gun, if a gun is going to go off, it requires someone to pull a trigger, and there have to be— there has to be an entire hand connected to an arm connected to a person with a brain who's connected to a community and a society. So there's all these different factors that go into when is the gun triggered and where does the bullet go. And when you think about it that way, you understand that there's a lot of different roots. The other analogy I'll use is the tree root analogy, which is that, you know, your illness might have one or two big roots or contributing factors, but any solidly planted tree has many different roots going deep into the ground, and that's what gives it strength. If you've ever seen a tree uprooted after a hurricane, like we see in Florida all the You know that there's this incredible root system holding that tree into the ground, and it's not the strength of one or two roots. It's the strength of many. And that's why the approach that we take is, well, we're going to get rid of the plastic you're storing your food in and the nonstick cookware that you're cooking your food in and the artificial lights that you have at your house at night that are ruining your circadian rhythms. We just swap those out for different bulbs. And we do all these different things that we cover in our programs and in coaching calls and treatment calls with patients. We remove all that stuff and then the body can heal. And so that's the theory, that's the idea behind how this method and this approach— Amy, your thoughts?

It really is just giving your body the best chance of healing. And so we're removing all the things that shouldn't be there and giving your body what it does need, and then you're giving it the best chance to heal. It is so interesting. I want to take a couple steps back, but just I think about when we're— when we were kids, how many people did you know with autoimmune disease? Nobody. I remember when I was a kid I remember thinking that autoimmune disease was this like big scary thing because only a few people had it. And that's kind of how my mom portrayed it to me was, oh, if this person has an autoimmune disease, it was this big thing and I didn't know very many people. And then now it feels like everybody has an autoimmune disease or some diagnosis or autoimmune symptoms or something. It's just really interesting to think back on just how not that long ago, it was very rare and now it's super common, especially amongst people in their 30s, 20s. Like, it's very, very, very common for people to get this, which is really interesting. But yeah, I agree so much that it's not always just one root and people are always looking for that. They always wanna say, point, okay, well, what was the one thing that caused my autoimmune disease? And I hate to break it to you, but it's probably a lot of things. It's not just one thing. I know we all want the one thing or we want to have a certain diagnosis mean that that has a certain underlying cause that's uniform with everybody. That's not true. I think another thing is that oftentimes, yeah, people just want it to be the same for each diagnosis. And so, I often have people come to me asking, well, what is the root cause for X disease? And I say, it's not the same for every person. It's so different. I remember when I was healing and I was first learning all the different things about how to heal from autoimmune disease. I remember talking to different people and each person had a very different journey from healing. One person's MS, you know, they did this specific thing and it got a lot of symptom relief. The next person did the next thing and it just wasn't 100% the same. There were a lot of overlapping, um, root causes, but some people did different things that really got them benefits. And so I remember thinking that that was so interesting because I, I was still of the mindset, well, if you have MS, then this one thing or underlying thing will, will fix all of it for everybody. And it's just not true. And so it really does also take a little bit of detective work of figuring out, okay, what are some of the things that are underlying for one person versus another person. There's a lot of overlapping things that are more general, but yeah, it really is a little bit more of a detective work in that way.

I'm reminded of a quote from an author named Miyamoto Musashi who said— I think that's his name— he said, you must understand that there are many paths to the top of the mountain. But there's another interesting quote. I think it was— I can't remember who this is, and instead of misremembering and mispronouncing their name, I'm just going to give you the quote. You can look it up if you want. He said something like, to the, to the beginner's mind, there are many paths to the top of the mountain, but in the expert's mind, there's only one. I know that the more I see patients, the more I think, okay. And there are always exceptions, right? So I'll have patients where I don't do things in the usual order, but you know, that being said, what I've seen in the practice is that when patients do things in the usual order that we do them with the intensity, the tempo, the timing, everything. You know, the average patient with us reports a 68% improvement in their overall wellbeing during their program or membership. And that's an overall wellbeing with 100% being where they want to be. We also have people who come in and their symptoms completely resolve, you know, in other words, 100% improvement. And the reason I think that is so important is that we have a very, we have a very set way of doing things that we know works. And if we just duplicate it over and over and over again, we get very predictable results. Back to the hidden causes. When I think about autoimmunity, I think about, okay, the immune system has lost tolerance to self-tissue. Many systems have failed in order for that to have happened. Why do those systems fail? They fail because the body's not properly nourished. You need optimal nutrition in order for those systems to work. They, they fail because the body is poisoned. Toxins and stress derail those systems. They prevent the body from maintaining immune tolerance, and they fail because pathogens, bacteria, fungi, parasites, et cetera, really thrive survive when they fool the immune system. And so they will disguise themselves as you, and then your immune system, if it's underpowered and doesn't have the right nutrients or has lots of toxins weighing it down, will not be able to distinguish them from you. And then it will attack you and them at the same time, which is why a lot of autoimmunity— what you'll hear in the literature or see in the literature is there's this theory that it's the body is attacking, say, the adrenals or the liver because there's an old pathogen there that the body is trying to get rid of. So, you know, in the end we can't know a lot of these things. And part of that is because we can't just take a bunch of livers out of people with autoimmune hepatitis and study them because they're using their livers. Right.

So true.

It's— well, I mean, it's sort of frustrating. Like, gosh, I wish we could get to the bottom of this. It's like, well, you know, it's hard. Like this, you can actually turn your car off and put it up on a jack and completely deconstruct it and know everything that's working. But the closest we get to that in medicine is like open heart surgery with bypass. Which is actually really quite a historic achievement. There was a time in the 1870s where surgeons were writing textbooks saying no one will ever do surgery within the chest. And the first guy to do it successfully, by the way, was nicknamed Bill the Butcher Bailey because he killed the first 5 people he tried to do a mitral valve commissurotomy on. But the 6th person who he operated on right before they were going to revoke his hospital privileges survived. Instead of dying of— this is like medical history trivia with Dr. Stillman for a minute here— instead of— I mean, she was going to die of heart failure in her 20s with 2 or 3 kids, I think. And instead, she lived a full life, and open-heart surgery was born. It is amazing.

Amazing.

And the reason I want people to know this is I want you to know— and the reason I think medical history is so interesting is that there's people who think that Amy and I are nuts.

So true. They do.

The leading medical surgical experts of the time thought Bill "The Butcher" Bailey was crazy for trying to do open-heart surgery. And here we are in 2025 and it's done. It's being done in a hospital right now, down the street from you. So we believe firmly that all autoimmunity will be essentially cured in the future through some combination of things. And we're just trying to figure out what.

Anyway, it's so true. So true. Such a fascinating story.

It is so fascinating. Yeah. I could talk about medical history all day, but I, I will, I will restrain myself. So I think about how the environment and our lifestyles have changed. And I think about all the different things. That have changed about them that can derail the immune system and lead to this loss of immune tolerance. And these are the real hidden causes.

They are. And I would say, you know, it's really interesting looking at the medical literature because they often say that it's these rogue antibodies that are just, you know, or rogue cells that are attacking your body. And it's so interesting. When I was in my grad school program, I did a 30-page research paper on the pathophysiology of multiple sclerosis. So every line had to be cited by a journal article. And it was so fascinating, so fascinating to see what the literature says. And so it was just really interesting because of course they don't recognize any of the things that actually can heal a person. They just, you know, write it off or, you know, maybe there's a couple articles that are okay, maybe some lifestyle factors can impact it. But it is really interesting when you get into the nitty-gritty of what they're saying, and it's just so different than, than what we have seen and what we've experienced. And it's such a bummer that it's so far behind where, you know, this seems like, I don't know, a medical advancement, but they haven't recognized it yet. Another thing that's really interesting too is you're going to find a lot of people as you go on this journey, or a lot of organizations that are gonna say the opposite. So for example, when I was finally healing from MS and looking at different root causes, I remember learning that heavy metals can be one of the root causes or triggers, or, you know, just kind of learning about what that looks like in the body. And I stumbled upon an article from the MS Society where they were just kind of making fun of that idea. And they were like, are just heavy metals are not causing this. Some people will say that, but they're just kind of like laughing at it and had an article that was one of their main articles, um, on their website. And I just thought, this is so confusing for people because you look at something that you think is a big establishment that's trying to help people. They raise a lot of money and they have a lot of walks. They do all the different things to try to help people, and then they post something like this. And I just, I was so sad to see that because I thought This is so misleading and people are going to be even more confused because then they're going to think that we are even more wacky that, you know, we potentially believe these different things. And so it's just really interesting what's out there, right?

As we've talked about before, the reality of this all comes back to the economics, which is that a lot of the patient advocacy groups are funded by the industries that rely upon the disease being a perpetual part of your life. You know, the reality is the economics behind curing patients are actually very challenging. And I actually remember how hard it was when I, I'll never forget this case. I basically resolved this woman's crippling headaches in one visit. And I remember thinking, I need like thousands of this lady if I'm going to make rent. What am I going to do? So what I did was I created a membership practice where people essentially pay a membership due for me to keep them well. And that's the answer. That's the solution. But you look at all of these hospitals, all of these clinics, all these infusion centers, the medical industrial complex that we are saddled with essentially, and all the corruption, you know, that creates all this basically interference. I mean, they try to stop people from competing with the conventional model. I mean, I can't even begin to tell you how many ways they, they do that. Through legislation, through regulation, et cetera. The membership model is the solution. For example, I've never seen a patient eliminate their plastic Tupperware and get all better. I've never seen a patient change out their nonstick pans and get all better quickly overnight, miraculously. I will sometimes ask patients, and I'm half joking, when they're telling me that they feel better with some combination of things that we're doing, I'll ask them, did the heavens open and the angels sing? And what I mean by that is, you know, I know you feel better, but I'm not talking about some kind of, well, you know, it was like a good stiff cup of coffee. I really want like, no, it changed my life because I want to know how well what we're doing is working. And I want to know because that's how you find out what really works for a certain number of people. It's, it's that moment of, oh my gosh, this has changed my life. And so what I have seen with autoimmunity, as far as hidden triggers and root causes, what ends up happening with, for a lot of people is they've developed some kind of reaction to something in their diet their lifestyle, their environment. And that can get tricky because I've seen it be personal care products, I've seen it be foods, I've seen it be inhalant allergies. And some of these are things that we really screen for in the practice. Like, for example, some of our toughest cases have very high levels of mercury. Mercury is a very toxic, toxic metal and very strongly linked to autoimmunity. So one of the things I've, you know, I've seen is amazing recoveries of patients once they've had their mercury amalgams out and they've gone through some process of mercury elimination. Lots of stories out there about that.

Yeah, so true. I remember one of the first people that I had heard of that had healed from MS, her whole thing was mercury, was mercury. Had a mouthful of amalgams, had them, you know, she was about to be— she was— could not walk. She basically was about to be in a wheelchair and just complete— as she detoxed mercury, got her amalgams out, got everything fixed, which was really interesting. But then for the next person, that wasn't the case. So I, I kept thinking, oh well, what if it's just mercury for me? But I didn't have a whole bunch of amalgams, so I was like, well, let's look for something else.

Well, what's interesting about that, though, is that— and this is an example of how unknowable a lot of this is— if your mom had a lot of amalgams as a child, but then say those baby teeth fell out, right? Or over time she had those amalgams removed and replaced with ceramic or composite fillings or gold fillings or something that's not mercury. If she did that, her total body burden of mercury might still be very elevated and she could confer that to her infant, right? And this explains a lot of the— you know, they'll do all these studies and they'll say, oh well, this or that or the other variable doesn't seem to affect a child's health. Well, they're not controlling for mother's exposures prior. And how can you? Very, very hard. Very, very complicated how you, how you answer questions like that in the literature. But in any event, you know, we do get cases where people get their mercury amalgams out and they detox and they, and they have an amazing improvement. With foods, what I— and personal care products and cosmetics and all that— what I want people to know, because this is one of the most common things that really derails their progress is the trigger can be very powerful and it can be the last thing you suspect. I've had patients test positive in allergy testing to everything from rice to coffee, and that's one of the reasons why I'm a big proponent of testing, because I've just had these cases where people like Sina McCullough, who I did a podcast with— that's S-I-N-A M-C-C-U-L-L-O-U-G-H— Sina has a PhD and she was dying of what was diagnosed as atypical rheumatoid arthritis that wouldn't respond to any medications. And she finally had an allergy test that showed her that all these healthy foods she'd been eating were causing her to have this crippling autoimmune disease. And she stopped eating them and promptly got better. She went from being on the couch, unable to function, to pulling weeds in her garden with her family on the weekend in a matter of weeks. I mean, a really, truly miraculous outcome. And that's— yeah. And we talked about that case, exactly what happened to her in the podcast we, we recorded, which I really encourage people to go listen to. But you'll get cases like that. And if I have to pick hidden triggers or hidden causes of autoimmunity, those are Those are the things that it's really sometimes easy for people to figure out. I can't endorse most allergy testing. Most of it is very fraught with false positives and false negatives. A lot of money is wasted on it. And in the end, a lot of people figure this out on their own. They go carnivore, they go keto, they go this, they go that, they go AIP, autoimmune protocol or whatever. They go on these elimination diets and they eliminate the thing, whether they realize it, what it is or not. They eliminate the thing that's making them sick, that's triggering their autoimmunity. And all of a sudden, health just completely turns around. And it's usually one of the gateways for them into more advanced integrative and functional medicine where they're saying, wow, my doctor didn't tell me or didn't suspect that, say, a common culprit is gluten or dairy. They didn't tell me that this was triggering all my symptoms. What else don't they know? Or what else don't they recognize that's actually true? Like, we just had a case of an— of a— he's training for the Olympic team, he's a triathlete. And he— we— I just recommended that he go off gluten and dairy because he's having all these symptoms that I think are autoimmunity. You know, he's 70% better with that and just some supplements, and that's it. And it was such an easy recommendation to make to him because so many people have, have reactions to those foods for many different reasons that we won't get into.

And I would also say that, you know, as we're talking about this, I don't want people to be afraid that, oh, maybe I can't eat these certain things for the rest of my life. Really, where we want to get your body is in a place where you don't have reactions to those things anymore. So you may need to eliminate them for a time. We'll just continue to do deeper work. That doesn't mean that you can go eat whatever you want because life— food is just toxic now. It's not— we, we do wanna feed our body healthy foods, but we wanna get you to a place where you won't have those reactions and then you're able to tolerate them if you do eat them. And so I just wanna say that cuz I don't want people to feel like, oh, this means that I can never ever ever live a life anymore. And that's not what we want for you. We do want you to live your life, but we want you to do it in a way that doesn't continue to promote disease in your body.

Absolutely.

And so I think one of the things you're really mentioning a lot of, hey, we want to remove things that are toxic to our body. So we're trying to get rid of toxins, we're trying to get rid of heavy metals, we're trying to get rid of other things, personal care products that are causing things. We're trying to remove a lot of that stuff from our life and from inside our body. And we do want to make sure that we're nourishing it correctly so that your body can heal. And so we see that there's these kind of two components where we're removing different things and then we are adding nourishment as well. And then another thing we haven't touched on yet is stress. I think that people often overlook stress as a huge, huge trigger for autoimmunity, as something that can impact it. We I think we just assume, oh, well, if I just take enough supplements or I do enough detoxing or I do enough of this, then I can just continue living my stressful life the way I am, you know, running 100 miles a minute and doing everything. And I think that in itself is just not true. We also need to figure out how to have a healthy balance with stress and doing, you know, we're in such a doing culture. We want to do more and do more and do more and You know, really max ourselves out, but I think that that is just harming us even more. I know you can talk on that for, for days, Dr. Stillman.

Well, we, the person who comes to mind is my friend Jim Laird, who I'm planning on recording a couple of podcasts with about these topics soon. And Jim tells some really compelling stories about autoimmunity. And one of the most compelling is he went through a period where with ulcerative colitis, where he realized that he was much too stressed. Much too busy, working way too many hours, and he was really coping with some really toxic emotions by lifting really heavy weights. And so he went from setting a world record in powerlifting to almost dying of blood loss from ulcerative colitis in a matter of days, right? The stress of lifting, the stress of those toxic emotions manifested as a disease in his body. And when he— his journey to healing is amazing. He tried all kinds of different things. With great results, but he's very clear that one of the most impactful things he did was to forgive someone. And by forgiving that person, after he forgave that person, his symptoms didn't completely remit, but there was a huge improvement. And that's the kind of thing— how do we even study that in conventional scientific— yeah, but Jim's really clear that it had a huge impact on him. And I won't tell Jim's story here because it's so good. I want to record a couple extra podcasts with him. But the point is, you know, because I look at toxic emotions as a stress, and we do look at them through the program because I've had the tough experience of patients coming in, doing all the protocols, but having a really toxic mindset and toxic emotional state and not seeing results. And it's uncanny. After a while, you get a sense for these people that they're just not going to do well no matter what you do. And that's part of why we don't— we screen people for what we do because We can't get great results if we let everyone sign up who's got, say, unrealistic expectations. But so what I want people to understand about the hidden causes of autoimmunity is there's many small contributing factors. We, we deal with these one at a time. We fix the water you're drinking or the beverages you're drinking outside of water or your food or your diet. We get rid of the dietary triggers. And a moment, for a moment, I want to talk about the dietary triggers too. I don't view food as a cause of autoimmunity because the truth is our relationship with food, really what we've lost in our tolerance to food is we've just lost it because the food's become contaminated. It's become overbred, over-engineered. There's a lot of concerns about, say, GMO food. I avoid it as a rule, even though it's very hard to study how that may interact with our immune systems. But in any event, I don't think the food is the cause. It's what we've done to it. It's what we've adulterated it with. It's what we've treated it with. It's how we've processed it. And it's all the toxins and stress and pathogens in our environment and our bodies that then cause this immune dysfunction and dysregulation that then leads to the autoimmunity. But it can still seem like food is your main trigger. So we address all of these small contributing factors. We address food, we address personal care products, all of these things. And that's how we can figure out what someone's hidden root causes of autoimmunity are and then help them heal.

Absolutely. And we also do HTMA testing, which is huge, right, to figure out imbalances within the mineral system in your body, because that informs so much about your body. It can tell us about how hormone systems are doing, how your overall internal state is doing, and we really wanna correct those imbalances. And so I think that a lot of people do have imbalances. They're often doing all the right things. And we also get people that come and say, well, I'm eating the right things and I've removed all the plastic and all the toxic personal care products and all the makeup and all of this and all of that, and they still have issues. And so there are other things that we need to look at. We need to look at the mineral system. We need to look at your life as a whole. We need to look at just every aspect of it. And then we're able to help often resolve symptoms and people do feel better, but it takes a lot of just kind of figuring out, and it's gonna be different for each person of to kind of how much of this one thing is impacting a person versus the other person. And so I think for me, what I really wanna make sure that people understand is that we're not often looking at a disease as a disease has one underlying root cause for every single one person that has that label of a disease. It's, it could be a whole bunch of things underneath and we really are trying to figure out what is it for this specific person in front of me that, um, what do they need to let their body heal? Um, and so we're just really trying to figure that out.

I'm reminded now that you've mentioned the hair testing, how frequently we find incredibly abnormal results. I, I just thinking off the top of my head, we found a hair product that a male patient was using for hair loss, insane levels of lead. We have a family that is currently in the practice. We ran hair testing on two of them, very abnormal aluminum and lead levels despite organic food, healthy diet, everything. Their mistake was they didn't get the memo on how toxic tap water is. And I believe their tap water has poisoned the whole family. Their levels of lead and aluminum are really quite impressive. And that's the only vector I can, I can find in their, their environment. I have seen, I recently had a test come back that was very high in arsenic. She was eating a brown rice protein. Bars that in rice bioconcentrates arsenic. So you tend to get higher arsenic concentrations in rice. I've seen plant protein powders create these insane elevations in copper. The record copper level in the practice was a gentleman who was using a lot of plant-based protein bars. I'm forgetting some, I'm sure, but we just— there's so many, there's so many. And so people really doing, doing hundreds, if not thousands of HTMAs a year has opened my eyes to how contaminated our food, our supplements are. And it's actually one of the things I've seen in people who don't get better in the practice is they're taking an absolutely obscene number of supplements outside of what we recommended. And I, I wonder about what's in those supplements that's not showing up in the hair, because when it does show up in the hair, because not everybody eliminates metals in the hair at the same rate in the same way, you'll get these big fluctuations. But there's also a limitation to what we can do to detect them. You know, I've run many different tests over the years, and they all have drawbacks, and I'm really trying to figure out what's optimal. But the other piece about the hair is that it's— it doesn't spoil, you can ship it from anywhere, and you don't need a very big sample. It's easy to collect. It's a 3-month— if you get enough hair, it's a 3-month window into your metabolism, which is very helpful. You know, it's, it's very hard to make— it's great to have a 3-month window of what's going on in your physiology. It's a little different if you've got a 1 or 2 week window, which is what blood and urine tend to reflect.

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. And then we haven't even, you know, touched on— I know you talked about this in a lot of different of your podcasts from people healing, but getting outside, getting in the sun, so important. I think that people often underestimate the power of that and they don't realize that that's huge and they're just sitting inside all the time, right, under, right, you know, terrible lighting and they just don't get outside. Yeah, you're going to say something.

Well, it's just funny because I think people don't think of that as a root cause.

Yes, I know. But how could it be? It's free. It can't possibly be a root cause. There's no testing, there's no supplements, there's no treatment plan. How could that be the root cause?

I know, but it's true. And I'm reminded, too, of a recent case where upon taking a history, we discovered that there was a smart meter right next to this person every single day. Where they were working during the day. I've seen some— I mean, I've seen some bad cases with smart meters. There's just so many things, and that's why we have the program. We take people through step by step, every little detail. Let's get everything right. Let's leave no stone unturned, and then let's quantify things. Let's actually get some lab work. Let's, you know, do some allergy testing if needed. Let's— I love doing extra heavy metal and toxin testing, but we don't always get it because it tends to run it tends to just run the bill up and we don't necessarily need it to get people well.

So, mm-hmm, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely is a big— it's everything together. It's not just one thing. And I think that is hard for a lot of people because they want it to be just the one thing, or they want the one supplement, kind of like the Western medicine model where you get the one drug that's going to help you. They, they always ask, well, what's one supplement I can take for this? I'm like, it's not that simple. It's not— that's not the answer. That's not what we do here. And so, but I also think And I think another thing, the— maybe we'll touch on this in another podcast, but I think that often someone's going to go through all these things, they're going to identify these root causes, and then they don't do the things and they don't understand why they're not getting better. And so I think that, you know, identifying these root causes is the first step and figuring out what in your lifestyle is not working. And then after that, it's actually making the changes that are necessary. To actually get better.

Absolutely. Any other closing thoughts, Amy?

No, I think that's it for today.

I hope everyone's enjoying these episodes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you in the next one.