How to Stand Out in the Short-Term Rental Market with @VodysseyShawnMoore

Well, welcome back to the Short Term Rental Riches podcast. I feel really privileged to be in the podcast world and to have connections with a lot of other super educated and experienced people in the short term rental industry. One of those people is Sean Moore. And Sean is the host of the Vacation Rental Revolution podcast. He's an author, he's a founder of vodicea. He's been in the space for a real long time, so I'm excited to have him on the show. Welcome to the show, Sean.

Awesome, Tim, appreciate you having me. I'm excited for another conversation. This will be good.

Yeah, totally, totally. I know you got a bunch of background, ton of experience. You've been in the space for a long time. Excellent podcast as well, by the way. So thanks for putting all those fantastic episodes together. You want to give us a little background?

Yeah, you know, it's, it's been an interesting ride for me. I've been in real estate investing for full time now. I can't believe it's been this long. For 23 years is my 23rd year as not having a real job. Right. It's always been in the real estate game and bounced around a lot of different asset classes. Really started off in the fix and flip world for a long time. Started rolling into development deals, built a portfolio, some long term rentals, and ultimately back in 2006, I bought my first vacation home. I didn't, I didn't intend it to be a short term rental. Never even thought about getting into that game. We just started, we were doing well enough, we were buying some second homes and, and we bought, you know, I lived in Utah, Boston, in the mountains in Utah, and bought this little cabin up there. And we ended up starting to not use it as much as we thought we were going to use it. And then we started to, everything was kind of changing around with the economy. We thought, you know, we're going to, we're going to throw this on the local, the local KSL ads and the Craigslist ads and the local classifieds and all these different things that we had at the time. And, and it started booking every single weekend. And so didn't think much of it, but it was kind of, we needed to, because at the time we were doing lot of big development deals. And one of the deals we were working on, the owners of the resort that we were working on, on the development got indicted on securities charges and so everything shut down overnight. And all of a sudden our real estate investment business was, was over because we had one big client. Right. We had one big person that was doing this development. And so I started actually losing a lot of my assets. I started, you know, not being able to pay bills, everything else, and actually had to short sell our house. We lost our vehicles. We kind of, we started sitting on our hands for a while, anything, because I just was sitting here and I kind of was blaming the world, right. I played the victim role for a little while and said, you know, this isn't my fault. You know, we've worked hard, this isn't fair. All those, all those things that we give ourselves. Excuses. Well, while you're doing that, nobody cares, right? If the bills aren't getting paid, banks don't care. And throughout this slide of us losing everything was also during the real estate slide, everything was going down in value. Now we're in 2008, 9, 10, and we're going through this slide. And I had this cabin that was actually making me money during this whole time. And it was actually. And so when we kind of recovered and we got back on our feet and started working again and started doing our thing, I look back and realized how well these short term rentals did in one of the, one of the worst performing real estate timeframes in history. Right. And, and started to realize that maybe there's something to this asset class. And so that's what really kind of opened our eyes to short term rentals was by accident, frankly. And then by 2011, 12, we really started to pay attention to this asset, really started to focus on this asset. And ever since then we just haven't looked back. We've been investing in short term rentals. I don't do any of the arbitrage, co hosting, any of that stuff, which I think a lot of, a lot of guys and people that do that. It's awesome, it's an awesome way to do it. We've always been in the ownership side of it. And so from that point forward we just started stacking assets and we realized that we don't have to have these huge portfolios to pay a lot of bills. And you know, we usually maintain a portfolio between six and 10 properties and we do trade properties, we do, we do maximize them and then trade up. And so at this stage we, you know, we, we have a fairly high performing portfolio for the size, you know, we're, we're nearing seven figures passively every single year with a portfolio of eight properties. I mean, and so it's, it's pretty, it's a pretty impressive asset class, if you will. And I know you Know this but that's, that's what got us into the game was back in the day just kind of by accident.

Yeah, that's awesome. Quite, quite the journey. Tons of experience. Always good to hear someone being full time in real estate for such a long time too. I think that's, that's why most of us get into it, right. We're looking for the time freedom and not having that, that real job. So that's awesome. Sean. Well, can you tell us a little bit more about your portfolio? Maybe kind of where the properties are and what the sort of mix is?

Yeah, absolutely. So I've always just been a believer like I call these lifestyle assets, you know, we, we, we affected. Title of my book is what the hell is a Life Asset? Right. And to me that we, we kind of started calling them lifestyle assets for us because we like the, we like the personal use aspect of like I love being able to use our properties with our, with our friends and family and building a portfolio that's pretty fun to own. Right? And so that's what we, my portfolio revolves around areas that we enjoy, right. We love outdoors, we love the mountains, we love national parks. And so aren't most of our entire portfolio is built around those types of markets and those types of profit drivers. You know, there's always the big question of where's the best markets to invest. You know, and, and I think that sometimes people over complicate it and I think that not that, not that there are more investable markets than others. We all know that to be the case, right? We know that based on acquisition costs versus revenue, there's markets that are going to be more favorable than others. And, but there's more to it than that. And I believe, and I always ask people why don't you start to analyze markets based on where you would love to own a vacation home. And that's how we built our portfolio. And then we go make sure it's investable. We go make sure that we can make money there. But there's, there's more than just chasing the most investable markets because those ratios change on a regular basis. And you know, you know, you know we use a lot of the same tools. A lot of us in this game we love like the air DNA's of the world and being able to pull the data and really make decisions, analytical decisions. That's super important. But when you're looking at a list of 150 homes that are all investable, you know, markets that are all investable, how are you choosing it and, and I always tell people part of the game we play is really delivering a great experience. And if you don't, if you're not familiar with the area and you're not part of the target audience in that area of who you're going to go attract, you're going to fall flat. And, and I've seen that to be the case. And so I always, I always buy properties that I love and I buy and I'm part of the target audience. Like I love, like I have fly fishing cabins and I have, you know, cabins that are adult getaways, things that I enjoy doing so that I can speak to the audience and I can set up an versus just going and picking the most investable market that I might not be as interested in my portfolio. A great example of that too is I don't have a whole bunch of large properties. I don't buy the big massive properties because I don't travel with big groups. We typically go with just our family and maybe one other couple. So we don't travel in these big groups. So my portfolio is not going to be that. We've got a lot of people that we work with that have these massive properties that do every bit as well as our properties do because they travel in big groups because, and they can speak to that audience. I'm going to not do a very good job of setting, setting those properties up outside of looking like a model home. Right. Because you know, when, when we talk about kind of, you know, tactical things that you should do to succeed, one of them is dialing in a great experience for a specific target audience. And so I always love talking to different, you know, owners, investors in this game and we all might be following the same path and running down the road with the same asset class. And our portfolios look completely different and they can all be very successful and high performing based on, you know, how you set them up. And I think it's a lot easier to set them up based on your personal target portfolio and kind of demographic than it is to try to figure out somebody else's.

No, that's a great point. Yeah. If, if you are the guest avatar, then you don't have too much to figure out, do you?

Right. It's a lot easier. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, I think that's one of the things that's just really exciting and, and fun about short term rentals compared to traditional real estate investing. You know, buying multifamily large complexes. For examp, we can use them as lifestyle assets. There can be that travel component. And so that is there's kind of two, two boats here. Right. There's some people that are doing it just looking for maximizing their investment 100%. But then there, there's the other boat where you know, family wants to spend vacation there or it's a place that you just happen to like going to. And so there's definitely the fun side. I like that. And if we can make those work, then that's fantastic. Right. I think that just makes the, makes the journey a lot more fun. And do you have some maybe tips for people in the, the lifestyle asset side side of things? You know, they're looking for that place maybe. A lot of what I found, Sean, is that sometimes in these really heavy vacation real markets the prices are pretty, pretty high. Right. Especially over the last few years they've gotten, they've gotten pretty high. So it's been a little harder to find some places that maybe we can use as a lifestyle asset but that still provide some cash flow.

Yes.

You have just some tips or general recommendations around that?

Yeah, I think the biggest one is just like you said, there's two sides of the coin of okay, this is strictly an investment. I want to maximize it because I love the asset class. I'm not going to use it much. Right. And then the other side is I want to supplement a vacation home for us and our family. Right. And, and supplements the key word if you're going to use it more often than rent it out. Right. We know that to be the case especially in a lot of these vacation market, if you're going to buy it as a lifestyle asset and you, and you want to be somewhere in the middle, you want it to be a good investment as far as cash flow investment. Right. Most real estate's a good investment long term period just because of appreciation and note pay down by somebody else. All those different things that we have. But just cash flow wise, if you're going to be on the lifestyle buyer and you're going to be a lifestyle buyer, you're going to supplement a vacation home, but you're probably not cash flowing if you're using it on all the major holidays and during the peak seasons a lot you need to be able to capitalize on that asset when it's at its highest earning potential. So I always tell lifestyle buyers, listen, have some flexibility. If you want a cash flow, you got to have some flexibility of when you use your asset. Right. Look at, you know, most markets that are, have a, you know, the peak seasons, you're making sometimes 70, 80, 90% of your income comes from those peak seasons. And so maybe, maybe don't use it during that and use it more during the shoulder season. Like that's how we use our assets. I use it a little bit more last minute and we use it during the shoulder seasons. You won't catch me using my properties on fourth of July weekend when everybody's there, you know, or the Christmas holidays just because I'm leaving so much money on the table or it's costing me a lot to use that and not rent it out. And so, and then, so you have to think a little bit more like the investor if you want to have some sort of a, some sort of cash flow at least. Right. And by being able to do that, it's looking at the calendar and say, okay, when, when is my highest earning potential throughout the year for property and I'm going to kind of have blackout dates that I'm not using it, right. I'm going to say I'm not going to use that property during that time. It's okay if you do. It's also your asset you can choose to do. So just know what that does to cut into your profitability and your cash flow for the year. Right. And then that flip side of the coin of the investor that's saying, I don't care about using it, I'm not going to use it. And I think that this, this buyer is actually harder sometimes for them to choose the area they go into because there's so many different options, right. And a lot of times they sit and spin their wheels. The lifesty buyer knows where they want to go. And now it's a matter of learning how to underwrite, find the properties that have the potential to do and meet their property goals, all those different things. A lot of investor buyers are, I, I find that they spin their wheels over and over and over because they're like, I just want the best investment. So they everything look, you know, there's all these different options. There's never a perfect market, there's never a perfect property. And so they don't choose one of them. And I still think I'm a big believer that even for the strict investment buyers, you should look for areas would enjoy using, not that you're going to use them. It's because you know as well as I do that in the back end of this, after we buy that asset for the long term profitability, we've got to figure out our guest avatar, we've got to set up that unique experience and we've got to be able to deliver that. And if you're not part of that, it makes it much more difficult. And so I, I still think that those, the tips for those investor buyers like I don't care, I'm not going to use my property is, I always say, still pick areas that you would enjoy using and that you're attracted to because you're going to speak to an audience a lot better when you set it up, up.

Yeah, great, great points there. And, and, and good on you. Good discipline for not staying in your property on those really high end nights. You know, that's one thing I found with my portfolio. Sometimes when I'm traveling and I want to, want to stay in one of the properties, it's like, gosh, I'm technically paying, you know, X amount of dollars per night. I could pretty much go anywhere and stay anywhere. So that's the other part of it too. Right?

That's how we look at it. Like I, I have a story of. Because we usually try to p.

We feel like that the money is made at the top of the market, but in this market, any, any market and short term rentals are mainstream at this stage. So you always have those people that are just, just competing on price. It's a race to the bottom. Right. We don't want to be that. We want to do things that can stand out better than that. I've got a property that's in a purpose built resort community and there's, there's 300 homes. They're all one of two floor plans. So they're all very similar, same resort amenities, all built about the same time frame. They're brand new. And when we go down there, I look at it and we charge about double what our neighbors are charging. And so we've got a really good customer base down there. We've got a lot of repeat guests and so we're able to push our prices. And so we actually, the last three times we've gone down there, we actually stay in our next door neighbor's property because they're charging half of what we charge. And so we're like, so we stay there, we check on our property, somebody else is paying us double and it's. And so you're exactly right. You look at what it's going to cost you to stay in your property and sometimes you have to, there's better options somewhere else.

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Yeah, we get, we get into it but then we, we're Exploring options. But yeah, yeah, that's, that's great. So let's see. Where, where should we go with this? Can you tell us a little bit about, about your book?

Yeah, yeah. So, well, back in 2015, 17 through that time, it took me about two years to write the book. You know, it's kind of a. I'm a slow, I'm a slow writer, I guess. But what we did is we take our process and I, I'm a big believer in the ownership model. There's really three major phases that you have to dial in and that is the acquisition phase. And that's all about really underwriting the right markets, underwriting the right properties, being able to make sure that they'll fit your property goals. And, and there is an aspect to understanding the numbers and the marketability or the investability of the market you're going into. And then so that's phase number one and phase number two is being able to. I don't manage any of my own properties. And so we have a lot of people, we know how to manage properties, but my properties are all spread out. I don't, I don't get into the management. I know you guys do and you do amazing job of it. I've never really gotten into the management side of it. So I let, I hire great management partners. And so the phase two is being able to take that property that you just have, be able to identify a target audience, set up a unique experience and then have the management in place to deliver that. Right. And so, so it takes that phase and then that third phase is being able to take that all now and be able to articulate and market this property to the masses in these crowded markets? How do you stand out? What are we doing to be able to get somebody to raise their hand to book our property above and beyond everybody else's? Because unfortunately, just if you build it, they will come. That used to work from 2021 to about 2022 ish and then, you know, from COVID to about the, you know, 2022ish and then. But because the inventory gap was so wide, there was the supply and demand was so wide. Supply and demand have caught up to each other. So you really have to dial in marketing. And I wrote this stuff back in 2017 because you had to still market back then. Right. Short term rentals were. It was a different game. There wasn't the popularity that there was now. It was growing, but it wasn't to what it is today. So what. When I wrote what the hell is a lifestyle asset. My, my goal was to take somebody through that entire process and we, we have a nine step process that we follow and that's all we were trying to do, is help people walk into the game with their eyes wide open, understand in those three major phases, those nine steps that it takes to dial that in so that they, you know, they didn't just buy a property and then they're sitting there wondering, okay, what did I just do? Because we've seen that happen, right? And, and especially as this has grown, I can't tell you how many people think that the short term rental game is over, right? There's articles all the time that, you know, the golden age is done, the Airbnb bust and all those different things that are, that are out there. I mean, we know bad news sells and so that's, it's always you fun to sell articles and be able to get readers on articles and clicks. But there's a lot of people who feel like that because they just bought something and now they're like, okay, I didn't realize there's all these other aspects to succeeding in this game. And so that's what the goal of that book was when we wrote it and released it. And finally I wrote it in 15 and 17, didn't release it until 2021. And it's been a really, you know, we've had really good feedback on it and so, and the goal is just to take people through that entire process.

That's great. That's great.

And congrats for finishing it, you know, because two years is, is much faster than a lifetime, which a lot of us, you know, a lot of us have books inside of us, but they never actually make it out. So congrats for finishing it, Sean. And.

Another, another piece that, that you brought up there about the management I want to dive into just a little bit because when we think of a short term rental investment as a lifestyle asset, as an investment, we also aren't usually thinking about, you know, unclogging toilets and answering calls at 2 in the morning and things like that. And so management becomes a really important piece of that. Well, management's always an important piece, just like you said. But there's a lot of different ways to do that. And for you, having properties in multiple areas, what are some of the things that you look for with your property managers before you decide to work with one?

Yeah, a couple things. And the biggest one is like, we love working with the boutique management companies because their business model is not typically, you know, okay, I'm just, I'm just trying to get as many doors as possible and get my fair share of business. And that's how we pay the bills. Right? They're looking to Mac. I'm looking for a management partner that's interested in helping me maximize my asset. Right. And we, the smaller their portfolio is, the more they, they, you know, they're going to make more money by being able to maximize these assets. And so the, the biggest key that we want to do is really be able to figure out how we can have a true partnership. Because management is the Achilles heel of this business. There's a lot of really great managers out there and we work with a ton of good ones. You guys have an amazing platform and program that you guys have put together to help owners like myself manage properties. Right. But it's, there's also a lot of people who got into the game them that really, they're, they, they grab the, they grab the, the asset, they throw it on Airbnb and then it just is what it is. You get your fair share of business. And so what we're looking for in management partner, somebody that's is willing to, I don't expect them to curate my experience. I don't expect them to do any of that. I expect them to take the, the property. We have the target audience that we've identified the experience that we put together and be able to do an amazing job delivering it. Right. With communication and, and those types of things. And so it's really important what their communication plat guests. We know that that's one of the number one comments we get. And like, a lot of times with management partners, we'll look at their reviews on other properties. And my best properties that performed really well, they talk more about my management partners than they do about the property sometimes. Right. You know, like, I read the reviews and they're like, man, Jess was so amazing. Melissa was just out of this world and communicating with us. It was. She made the stay so nice. And so really being able to have that communication partner to help you deliver that great experience that you've curated is the number one thing that we're looking. Right. We just don't want to be, you know, a cog in a, in a big machine that is built to just get a whole bunch of volume and, and a lot of your big national brands. That's what they do. And it's nothing wrong with that business model. They make a lot of money doing it, but it's just not the model that we want to fit into. As an owner. Right. As an owner, that's what I'm looking for from a management partner. Somebody that's. And I always tell our management partners I want to be your best client. Like tell me what I can do to be your best client. And usually that's having to being able to invest in the property to curate this great experience and then let them take it and deliver. Deliver it. Right.

Yeah, great, great points there. And it all comes down to hospitality, doesn't it, that that's the name of the game. Excellent tip there too. By the way. Sean, you mentioned, you know, looking at reviews from other properties, you know where they're mentioning the property management company. I think that's an excellent way for anyone out there looking for a property manager is, is check some of the reviews from the properties that they're already managing.

Yeah.

And if they're specifically mentioning the management company then that's just.

You know, extra insight there.

So it's huge.

Good points, good points. Well, back in the day when, when you started with your short term rental journey, things were a little different, weren't they? You mentioned renting on Craigslist and stuff like that. And so a lot has changed and it's just changing so quickly still. So I was wondering if you might just give us your take on maybe what have been.

What's maybe like the most positive thing that you, that you've seen happening in the short term rental industry since when you started and maybe also the most concerning thing.

Yeah. So you know, one of the obvious positives is anything that becomes mainstream, the tools available, the resources available for this specific asset class, I mean that's just grown exponentially. When I started it wasn't, I mean you were taken long term rental programs and things that you were using for different long term rentals and trying to, trying to make it into usable for a short term rental. And they're different. Right. Because the check ins and checkouts and you like the hospitality industry has been around forever but it's always there were all these big enterprise level solutions that a regular property owner couldn't tap into. And so what's been really exciting is now as short term rentals have become so you know, mainstream is now all of a sudden you have all these enterprise level tools and software and all these systems accessible for individual property owners. And, and so the, just the resources, the sheer availability of resources, the people in the game, even like cleaners, your boots on the ground maintenance cleaners that are willing to do it in some of These smaller destination markets, it's not that difficult to find anymore. And back in the day it was, it was almost impossible. Like you, it was like, like that little mountain cabin we had in Utah. I mean, I can't tell you how hard it was just to find somebody that could do the turnovers and the cleanings because it was just nobody was doing it right. And so you were kind of, you're kind of having to make it, you know, make it as you were going and now the resources available and just, I mean all the different tools are just amazing, right? And so that's been really, really exciting to be able to become, you know, raise the bar. Because that, all of that does is allows us to be more professional hosts, run these like a business and create that amazing hospitality experience that has been, you know, before it was grandma's cabin that you were renting out with, with cell phone pictures. Now the guests, they not only expect, but we can actually deliver world class hospitality, right? You can, you know, you can, we can deliver the same type of hospitality the Four Seasons can deliver in, in many cases. And so that's really, really exciting to see in, in this game because that's what it's all about, right? And then, you know, one of the, one of the more concerning things, there's two things that I would say that as things grow, right, as.

Popular you have to now you have to kind of navigate a pretty wide range of supply out there. There's a lot of hosts that operate at amazing levels. There's a lot of hosts that just are, you know, not operating where they should. And so anytime that happens, sometimes the industry gets a bad name a little bit, right? There's, you know, now as it's grown more, more and more popular, you're starting to see two years ago everybody was all about traveling and staying in Airbnbs and short term rentals across the world. Now you're seeing, you know, celebrities and everybody else coming out and saying, and trickles of conversation say I'll never do this again. Because I was, you know, I looked online, what I, what I saw wasn't even close to what I was delivered. And so those are some things that are concerning and that's never going to go away as things, as things really kind of grow up, right? We just have to, we have to. So I, I want to see hosts out there just raise the bar. Continue to raise the bar. Let's keep the, you know, the, the, the. And it's not always going to happen, but keep the good name of short term rentals for the guests because I think it's a great way for guests to travel. And you know, regulations are something that people are really concerned about. I don't know that that's, I'm not as concerned about regulations as much as I am. Kind of the, it seems like the pendulum swung really far one way. Right. We just have this sweeping regulations in a lot of different markets. I do think the pendulum is going to settle somewhere back in the middle where they're, you know, in a lot of these markets especially. And, and that's just growing pains. Right. That's just being able to grow up as an asset class. It's recognized as its own asset class at this stage. And so a lot of municipalities, as they should, they should decide where they want them, how they want them to operate, what they're looking for. And I felt like the last couple years it, it went a little far in, in certain areas and I do. But I think it's going to settle back down. And so that's something we're watching closest with.

Well, yeah, yeah, some great points there. The, the regulations. One. You know, one thing that always keeps me positive about regulations is that Airbnb has generated billions of dollars in taxes for cities and municipalities that didn't have it before Airbnb. And that's kind of hard, that's hard money for them to turn down, you know, so that always, in fact, I think they're poised to be like the biggest hotel taxpayer in the world now globally. I, I don't know if they are already, but that they're, they're, they're getting there if they're not already. The other, the other thing you mentioned there was just kind of raising the bar and becoming more professional. And so we have all these tools now, which is fantastic. We didn't have those before and I think that that's a good thing for the industry too. You know, people that have never experienced a short term rental before, if they have a bad experience the fe first time, that, that's unfortunate. So we want to raise the bar so that that doesn't happen and people continue to continue to travel and stay in short term rentals, keep growing that, that supply. Do you have any, any other ideas, anything you want to throw out there just in regards to the lifestyle asset of it for maybe someone that hasn't quite pulled the trigger on a property yet?

Yeah. You know, really dive in and look at if this is the asset class you want to dive into. Right. First, I, I always say that, like assume because Everybody's doing it, or because you heard that it was a great asset to invest in, or you can make a lot of money. It's always really good. I always tell people everything you do is going to have pros and cons and investing in short term rentals, getting into the short term rental game, it has pros and cons. You and I, we love it. We, we've changed our lives because of it. Right. We know a lot of people who have and, and so, but always the advice, I would say, is do your due diligence on the front end. Make sure it's the right asset class for you. Nothing's going to be perfect, but make sure it's what you're really looking for. It can, it can serve property goals, your investment goals, your lifestyle goals. And if it is, then the advice is, then speed up now. It's not time to sit and wonder about it forever. Right. Once you, once you make the decision that this is the right vehicle for you to dive into, then dive all in. Decide who. You know, there's so many resources out there. You know, Tim, you and I both have podcast free trainings, lots of different resources. There's so many other people that we both know that have amazing stuff that people can tap into as well. Well, and so after you decide it's the right vehicle, then decide that you're going to run down the road and start taking steps every single day. You don't have to do everything at once, but commit to taking steps every single day to start making the dream a reality. Because a lot of people overestimate what they can do in 30 days, 90 days, but they underestimate what can happen in a year or three. Right. And so, and you look back, you're either going to look back in a year and say, I'm still thinking about it. Man, I wish I would have done that because somebody blew by me. Or you're going to look back and say, holy crap, I can't believe what I accomplished. Be the latter. And that be the advice I would give if you're going to dive into this game because it is really, really fun. It's a, it's. But everything has pros and cons. Identify if it's the right vehicle. If it is, start running down the road.

Yeah, excellent advice. And I, and I love that, that quote or that saying about, you know, underestimating what, what we can accomplish in, in three years and overestimating what we can do in one year. It's so, so true. Yeah. And I think Yep. You have an excellent podcast, Sean. And one of the other ways for the game, right, and to pull the trigger is to get educated. And education helps eliminate our fears, our uncertainties, and also helps us make better investment decisions. That's when we want to get right. And so can you tell us or tell the audience where they can find you? I know you've been educating lots and lots of people for a real long time. What's the best way for them to. To find you?

Yeah, best place go check out Vodicey.com that's going to have links to our podcast. It's going to have a place where you can get a great. Grab a free copy of my book. You can buy it on Amazon too if you like, give us a review. But you can get a PDF download for free on our website and learn more about us. And if it's something you want to want a little bit more help with, we obviously run a coaching program and you can dive in and set up a time to chat for that. But Vodicey.com is a great place to start because it has access to all those free resources as well.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on, Sean. Everyone out there, make sure to check out Sean's podcast, check out his resources, and we hope to have you back on someday in the future.

Future. Awesome. Thanks, Dan.

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