These STRs Earn $150K/Year and cost ONLY $300K property

I've basically started with co hosting. Before I even knew what co hosting was, I had been hearing about Airbnb. So I was like, mom, dad, like, could I list this place on Airbnb and get a percentage for hosting it? They were like very skeptical to let me take their precious home and turn it into a short term rental. But once I got them on board, we made. I've seen a lot of people who just have a checklist and they're like, okay, hot tub, check. Sauna, check. Cold plunge, check. But if you're going to go that route, the best advice I've heard from designers is I think like the middle class class of short term rentals is going to get pushed out. All of them are doing between 150 to 200,000 in revenue.

Well, welcome back to the Short Term Rental Riches podcast. I'm really happy you're here again. I have an excellent guest today, Natalie Palmer. She is the co founder of Level up, your Listing Summit. It's the largest annual women's STR conference. She's also the host of the no Vacancy podcast, which I'm sure a lot of you have been tuning into. It's quickly landed in the top 1% of podcasts worldwide. She works closely with Airbnb as an ambassador. She now helps investors find passive returns by connecting them with luxury hospitality projects. And she lives in socal with her husband. And I know she just had her fourth kid, so I know she's really busy. And we're excited to have you on the show today. Welcome, Natalie.

Thanks so much, Tim, for having me. And yeah, it was great getting to connect with you. Just a few weeks ago I had you on my podcast. So if people want to go hear Tim's story, you can go check that one out. But happy to be on today.

Yeah. And that's one of the fun things about being a podcaster, I guess we get we have an excuse to talk to a lot of other people in the industry and really dig into the details and, and also meet a lot of cool people along the way. So I know you have a lot of awesome things that you've been doing and been doing for a long time. For those of our audience that haven't tuned in your podcast before, can can you tell us a little bit more about you and, and your journey?

Yeah, yeah, I'll definitely give an intro. So I've been in the STR space for eight years now and basically started with co hosting before I even knew what co hosting was. Essentially I was out of College and like floating around, didn't know what I wanted to do. I was taking on a bunch of side hustles. I was like doing branding on the side and social media. I was a wedding planner part time. Like I had a million different gigs and grow up. We had a second home in Big Bear, California that we would just go and use and use as a ski place. And when my sister and I got older, we just weren't using it as a family anymore. And I had been hearing about Airbnb, so I was like, mom, dad, like, could I list this place on Airbnb and get a percentage for hosting it? So kind of like created the co hosting model before I knew that that was actually a thing. But in one winter season, they took some convincing. They were like very skeptical to let me take their precious home and turn it a short term rental. But once I got them on board, we made enough in one winter season that my parents were like, okay, we're putting that towards a down payment on a second one and you're going to manage that one for us as well. And then from there I just had a ton of different like neighbors and owners start approaching and saying like, hey, we see that your place is always booked. Like, is there any chance that you could manage our short term rental as well? And so I just started co hosting full time. So that's like kind of how my journey started. After a few years of doing that, my husband and I started investing in real estate. So that's pretty much been my journey with short term rentals. But in the last year, I was pregnant with my fourth and just got so busy with things that I've now moved over to helping with capital raising. I've just had to take a step back from like renovating properties and managing them myself. So it's been really nice to still get like, get to be involved, but more like I'm remote now and I just like connect investors with really cool projects and I let the operators be the one who ones who run everything. So my work is done once I get it funded, which has been a really nice change of pace for me.

Yeah, definitely. Oh, there's a lot of pieces to it as you know, and it can get exhausting. You know, the more, the more properties you add, the more things there are to do, it just gets multiplied. So starting with that first property in Big Bear, how many properties did you, did you scale to before you decided to just start working with other investors?

Yeah, so at one point we were managing 10, I was managing 10 listings total in, in Big Bear. So still those two first ones for my parents and then eight others for other owners. And so it was a very like boutique business. I know. How many properties do you guys manage? 200 plus worldwide. Never got to that. And all of the properties were all in the same actually in the same exact condo complex and Big Bear. Um, and so it was a really. I, I still manage today, five total, including those two for my parents. Um, I've had some owners that have sold or converted to long term rentals and I have had no interest in building the co hosting business back up. Um, so today I managed five. But yeah, it's been a really. This is like one tip I have for anyone listening who maybe wants to get into co hosting. If you can find a like condo complex or apartment building to scale in. I have one cleaner that works for all of them. We have the same handyman. You know, like my, I'm running for the HOA board right now and my, my dad has been on the HOA board in the past. It's just so, like easy to scale your operations. We almost do the boutique hotel model but mixed with co hosting. So it's so easy to scale. My cleaner will like go start at one unit, start the laundry there, like hop around from spot to spot, unload dishes while another dishwasher is running. So yeah, that's kind of how it's been for 2017 is when I started doing all of that. And then really it's in the last year that I still run that, the co hosting business. But it's only five listings right now and I've really gone all in on capital raising.

Awesome. Well, I want to talk to you more about the capital raising, but let's dig in just a little bit more on the operations and you know, your education and all of that. Because this industry's changed so much. I mean it's totally different than, than what it was a long time ago. I think it's exciting because there's lots of really good opportunities still and so it definitely makes sense for a lot of investors out there if you find the right property. And I totally hear what you're saying, you know, having properties in the same space makes things a lot easier. When I got started, I got started with smaller multifamily buildings. So sort of the same idea. You know, one housekeeper could clean five units. Can you tell us just a little bit about how you're currently managing those five units? So maybe what software you're using? And you mentioned your housekeeper, do you have anyone else helping you out with those units?

Yeah, my mom is retired now actually, and so she's jumped in and has been helping a lot. So she's now the one that like drives to Big Bear and restocks things for us. But I really try, honestly, you guys, your housekeeper is like your number one best asset for sure. And I live a couple hours from the properties, so I will a lot of times we'll just like ship things to her. Like, she tells us what we're running low on and I'm like, okay, I'm sending toilet paper and paper towels and dish pods and whatever to you and then she'll bring them and restock on her next trip over to clean. So she's been just the best asset and you know, like with damages and stuff, she's the one taking pictures and telling us with repairs something's broken. She reports to us what we need so we can hire, you know, whatever a handyman or someone to come fix the appliance. And I like, our housekeeper is the most important part of the business. Like it's not even close. My mom, like I said, she's retired, so she's been helping with things too. And then VAs for messages have been really helpful. I would say that that was easier to take advantage of. When I had 10 list, like the cost of keeping a VA on was more justifiable, but now that we've dropped down to five, it's harder. I do have a VA that has worked with me in the past. I don't keep her on full time anymore, but it's like if I know we're busy or like at nights she comes on and stuff. But really it's just me and my mom tag teaming messages throughout the day now. So it's pretty manageable. And then tech stack. Yeah. You also asked me about softwares. I really like Hospitable and Price labs, of course. And then we just use like smart locks and ring cameras. So really nothing crazy. I, I don't want to over complicate it. So.

Yeah, yeah, it's easy to, to want to use all the latest and greatest tools. There's just so many now. Every conference I go to, it's like, I mean, there's just a dozen new ones, you know, but okay, so some really good points there. The housekeeper one for sure. That that's a huge advantage having someone on your team that really cares about your properties. And I think that's one of the things I found with my portfolio. Love to hear from you, but you Know, if you, if we're working with the same housekeepers, treating them really well, they take ownership of our properties, especially if we're remote, like, you're two hours away, they're in your properties much more often than you are. And so when something happens, like, you know, they take ownership and that, that really helps in the operation. I'm curious if, you know, things are way different today than they were when you got started. Do you have any other quick tips for any of our listeners out there, things that maybe you're doing differently now that you weren't doing back in the past?

Well, one of my best tips, like back to the housekeeper topic, is I really recommend that people find one housekeeper that just works with them and maybe they have like two or three helpers underneath them. But doing that as opposed to hiring like a cleaning company where they just send a new person every time, because to your point, you want somebody that's going to, like, take ownership over it. I don't want somebody who's thinking, oh, I don't have to dust the baseboards because I'm not even going to be the one here next time they'll send another cleaner that's on payroll that day. So that's like, one of my best tips is just to really find somebody, like, dedicated to your property. But let's see, you asked me if there's something I'm doing now that I didn't at the beginning. Such a good question. Let's see. My. I would definitely say my pricing strategy has changed. I think in the past, we would really try to raise prices as dates got closer and, you know, do like, kind of surge prices, pricing and stuff as things got closer. And right now I'm more willing to, like, drop. I've noticed that people are booking things more last minute. I think my whole philosophy on pricing has probably changed in the last, like, two years. I also used to do much like, we're in a very seasonal market, and so I was more, I would only want to open like three months at a time because it was like, okay, if we get a really good snow season, I know I can charge more for winter prices. So I didn't want winter dates open when it was still summer. I wanted to wait and play it out a little bit. But now I've noticed, like, it's really beneficial actually to have the calendar more booked out farther in advance. I think the OTAs and like, Airbnb's algorithm kind of rewards you when they see more bookings coming in. So that's probably the one I can think of that's like, really changed since the beginning. Just pricing looks so different from how I used to do it.

It definitely does. I mean, when you got started. When I got started, there weren't really pricing tools available.

No, my pricing strategy was using the other condos as comps. Like, I was like, okay, that one got booked really early for that price, so I'm going to raise the prices on the other ones. Like, that got snatched too quickly. I would use like all the other nine as my own, like, comp set. And now it's so much easier with. With things like Price Labs.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, let's see. So you have ventured into fundraising.

Yeah.

And helping investors acquire properties. That sounds really interesting. Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, this was actually something that I wish I had started sooner, but through my podcast and my network, I would get a lot of people reaching out and saying, you know, hey, I'm a high income earner and started listening to your podcast to try and get into short term rentals and use some tax loopholes. And I've realized that I want nothing to do with this. It seems way more work than I thought. But if you ever have an opportunity for me to invest with you, like, keep me posted. So I had kind of been growing a list like that over the last few years. Um, and then on the flip side, you know how it is when you're talking to guests. People have such cool projects they're working on, and we'd turn off the microphone at the end, finish recording, and people would tell me like, oh, yeah, I would love to do this, but we need 2 million in capital to make it happen. And so for the past few years, I've kind of had this idea of like, I think I need to be like a matchmaker in this space, but I don't know why I didn't jump into it. And then finally I started working with two of my friends, Maddie and Skylar, and they're growing a brand called for the Love of Upstate, which is a luxury portfolio of gorgeous short term rentals all in upstate New York. And they had somebody raising capital for them, but she had to leave. She pursued something else. And so we got to talking and I was like, they wanted this, this void filled. And I was like, that's something I've been wanting to get into. Like, let's try working together. And we just hit it off immediately. It's been a great partnership. So I've been working with them since April. So coming up on a year But I, I love it. Like, it's just been so, I think, also coming for the podcast world, like, I love talking to people and getting to know people in these one on one conversations. And that's really what it's been. It's a lot of what do you want as an investor? And like building deep relationships with people who are going to send, you know, a hundred thousand dollars. So it's just fit very well into what I'm doing. And like I said, the best part is Maddie and Skyler are the ones finding the properties and designing them and launching them and managing them. And I don't have to do any of that part, which is so funny because I've talked to people who have said like, oh my gosh, like, what Maddie does is my dream job. Like, wouldn't you rather be doing that? And I'm like, nope, not right now. Maybe there will be a time in the future where I want to get back to designing properties and being more hands on, but not right now. So there's, there's a little out there for everyone.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, it is really nice, you know, to be a podcaster. I mean, you have tons of good connections. How long have you had your PODC past? How long have you been.

I started it like early, like Q1 of 2022. So four. Oh my gosh. Is that four years? Yeah, four years now. Oh my God, I can't believe how quick that's been. I would have told you it was like, oh, like two years. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, lots of good contacts that you're in a really good position to, to connect people, you know, and that, and that's the reality, you know, is that there's a lot of people out there with a lot of money, but they don't want to do the work. And maybe they don't know people in the industry, people that they can trust. And so being a connector and being in that position, that's. That's really awesome. Now you also run a conference that you've been doing. Tell us more about that. Because I imagine that's another place where again, you've been able to connect with a lot of. A lot of people.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like you mentioned in the, in the intro, I'm also the co founder of Level up, your listing hosting summit. We are the largest annual women's short term rental conference. We do welcome men too. But if you go on the website, just be warned, our branding is very, is very girly and we make no apologies for that. But we probably have about 15 male attendance every year. But yeah, this is something I've started with my partner, Tatiana Taylor Tate. She's an award winning interior designer, also does short term rentals and co hosting and property management and she's based in Vancouver. But her and I met at a short term rental conference and we loved it. That was the first time we met in person and I had never that. That event totally opened my eyes to like how many people are in this world and interested in this topic. And like I mentioned earlier, I had a background in event planning and I was a wedding planner before I ever found short term rentals and I really missed events. I didn't want to do a career in wedding planning because I realized I would never have a Saturday to myself ever again. But I did miss doing events. And then with Tatiana being a designer, I think we knew that we could come together. And something that was frustrating us in the industry was a lot of people at conferences, short term rental conferences, would talk on stage about how important branding is and differentiating yourselves and how the space was changing and you had to be more competitive. But they were saying this on stage in like really stuffy hotel ballrooms with no personality. And we were like, I think that we could make a conference where we put our money where our mouth is and like really turn it into a whole guest experience. So that's what we did. And if you want to check out our website and like our gallery of old photos from previous years, we're about to have our fourth summit and we really focus on brand activations, like guest experience. It's just so much fun to attend. Every single booth that we do has like a whole theme to it. And I don't know, we call ourselves like the Coachella of the short term rental industry. Like, it really feels like a festival when you go. But our next one is coming up March 29th through 31st in Phoenix. So yeah, we're just a couple months away. Super exciting.

Awesome. Well, I'm hoping that we'll be able to attend and we have to get you guys there. Yeah, we'd love to be there.

And.

And conferences really are. I just did an episode on a recap on a conference that I just went to and they really are such a good place. I mean, yes, there's lots of good information on podcasts, but to, to be with someone for an afternoon or. A lot of the people that we meet at these industry conferences are people that we end up up doing business with just like you or, and becoming friends, you know, Lifelong friends. So I think it's a really good opportunity and that's awesome you guys have been doing that and fourth. Fourth time around, you guys know what

you're doing, so I hope by now we do. Yeah. We're learning every time. But, oh, man, events are. Events are no joke, you guys. It's like so expensive, so much work. I just can't even believe, like the numbers were, you know, sending a check to the AV team for like $30,000. And I'm like, oh, God. Like, it's just such big numbers you're working with. But yeah, that's.

You have to. Yeah, you gotta. Yeah, there's all the things really, you know, but. Okay, well, excited for that. Let's maybe go back to your. To the acquisitions and stuff you guys said. So you, You've been a connector in the space, you know, helping a lot of people with. With your partners find the right properties. Can you tell us a little bit more about maybe how they're finding the properties or. I'm not sure how detailed you get with them on that.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So right now, like I said, I'm working with a specific portfolio, so it's for the Love of Upstate. And I think maybe eventually I'd love to help other projects also get funded. Like if somebody had some great vision for like a Glamp site or a, you know, Treehouse Village, like step into some of those. But right now I have a really good partnership, so I've been working exclusively with for the Love of Upstate. But our model, like how they find properties is. This has been really interesting too. The upstate New York market, there's really not a lot of data on. And so the first few projects that they were fundraising for, this is before I came on, it was. There was no air DNA to like even prove that the model would work. It was really just Maddie and Skyler saying, like, we've lived here for a while, we think we know what people want. And the, the housing prices are so good there. But they were basically calculating that they would make the same amount of revenue of like 150 to 200,000 a year per short term rental. That's almost the same revenue you're going to get right now in like a Scottsdale or an Austin or maybe a Nashvill. But in those three markets, your purchase price is going to be 1.2 to 1.5 million. And we're finding houses in upstate New York for between 300 to 500,000 that are projected to do that same amount. So that was kind of the first sort of how the idea of like building an upstate was born. And then it's just so close and driving distance to so much of the population. It's, it's so dense over there in the Northeast. So we knew that we'd have, you know, a good influx of people to come visit. But yeah, there's a lot of upstate New York has a lot of like those, you know, old, inherited, passed down homes, like very grandma chic that just haven't been updated in 40 or 50 years. And Air DNA was saying you could maybe make 30,000 a year on these. So the numbers were not there to prove it, but we just did our 9th, 9th or 10th project, I forget. And all of them are doing between 150 to 200,000 in revenue. So now we're able to prove our own comps with our own properties. And Air DNA still hasn't quite caught up to what we're doing. I don't know if I want them to at this point. Like, it feels like we found like kind of like a hidden gem of a market. So yeah, that's, that's what's been really cool is like the purchase prices there are just so easy to make money on. But that's been something that's been really fun to navigate with investors. Like people will just say like how I've heard a lot of people say, like, oh well, shouldn't we invest in like a Scottsdale or something that like has more comps and more proof behind it and that we know that those numbers are more justified and it's like yes, you can. But again, you're looking at these 1.2 to 1.5 million purchase prices, if not higher. And it's so competitive. You have to do the entire backyard with the giant chest and the infinity pool and you know, every, the golf simulator, like every amenity you can think of. So it's nice to find these like hidden markets where you can do the same revenue but for a third, a third of the purchase price. So yeah, I feel like we tapped into something really special in this market. And I think the key with markets like this, where you know Scottsdale is going to have business because there's so much to do there, so much food and nightlife and golfing and events in town. Same with Nashville, same with Austin. When you're doing a market like upstate New York, the property itself has to be a destination. And so we really focus on like wellness amenities and putting in cold plunges, saunas, massage tables, hot tubs, you really have to focus that like the property, it's is going to be a place that people want to go to just for the property itself because there might not be much to do around there.

Gosh, there's, there's so many good points there. First of all, congrats. Those are, those are amazing returns. Thank you. And yeah, some, some really good points there. It's taking that leap, you know, when. And there is no data. But you mentioned something that really stands out for me is that your partner is familiar with the area and she was, you know, going after that model for something that she could see herself in.

Yeah. I think it helps when you are your own guest avatar. Like you can picture. I would book this and I would come with friends who want like a wellness weekend. If you can find something where other people don't have to get it. But if you know that you would book it, I think that that speaks volumes.

Yeah, absolutely. And assuming the regulations are open there, you know, whereas New York and a lot of those places are locked down, which also provides more demand, I would think, for surrounding areas.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that because a lot of our investors hear New York and immediately get scared and I'm like, no, know, that's New York City. Like we, we're not dealing with any of that in upstate. But you're probably right, Tim, that squeezes people to have to drive a little bit further to go enjoy stuff like this. But upstate has been really, really friendly with, with regulation. I mean, the only thing would be like, you know, if we started like throwing parties or something even that a few of our properties we can host weddings and the county had no issue with it. But you know, we might have to just like submit a request ahead of time. But yeah, upstate is very, very friendly with short term rentals. We've ran into no issues there.

Yeah, well, you, you mentioned some other, some other key things there too, is that the property is the destination. This was something I heard as well at the recent conference that I was at. And it's something that we've been seeing a lot. I think one of the exciting things about it is that if your property is a destination and you can really push the upper limits of price, you know.

Yeah.

It's its own unique destination. There's not a lot of comps like, you know, Scottsdale, where everything's kind of the same, even if they all have pickleball courts. You know, if there's a 500 properties that are identical with pickleball courts. So can you tell me. And your partner's a designer too, so you mentioned some, some cool things like cold plunges and stuff like that. Are there some other sort of design tips or tricks that, that you might be able to share with us?

Yeah, this is my best, and I'm not the designer, so I'm repeating from, from my partners. But this is the best tip that I heard when adding amenities to your properties. If you're going to follow this model of make the property, the destination is I've seen a lot of people who just have a checklist and they're like, okay, hot tub, check. Sauna, check. Cold plunge, check. But if you're going to go that route, the best advice I've heard from designers is to make sure the amenities you're picking are not just checking a bo, but they feed into the whole experience. So you can find those, you know, portable saunas that just pop up in like a black vinyl tent and there's some hose attachment that creates steam in there and one person can sit there. Okay. Yeah. You can technically check off the box on your Airbnb listing that yes, you do have a sauna, but is that picture going to, like, inspire the guest experience that you want? So in our case, we either build saunas from scratch, like, like have them, you know, cedar planked and everything, and bring in all of the, I don't even know the tech or the appliances to like make it work and heat up. We'll try to position it so it has like a waterfront view and we put like a whole window there or get like the barrel. Saunas are really cool. And make sure you have at least like a two or four seater so people can be in there together. Same thing with like, we'll do like red light therapy rooms. And you just want to make sure like, like, you know, the ceiling is paneled and it's got clean, crisp white towels in there and like fragrance mist. Like you really want to make it something and not just check off the box of like, oh, yeah, we bought a red light therapy mask so we can claim that we had it. So I would say that's like the biggest tip I've taken from designers is really do every amenity with intention and not just checking off the box that you got it.

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, if someone marks a king size bed on their listing and the first time, mattress on the floor, the legs break off, like, that's not a very good experience.

I guess technically you had the king size bed but is that what somebody was really envisioning? Probably not.

Right? So awesome. Okay, so you guys are building out like an individual portfolio at the moment? Yeah, on all under this same brand. Everyone in the space has been talking about branding, you know, and you guys put a lot of thought into your conference, it sounds like, into branding. These destination type properties are really good candidates for repeat guests, I would imagine. You know, they love it. Maybe they live in New York and they're like, sweet, we can drive a couple hours, we'll be back here. Can you tell us a little bit more of maybe what you guys are doing to try to get, get some of those guests back or build out your branding for these properties?

Yeah, social media has been huge for that. And if we have somebody reach out about one property that happens to be booked, what's so nice is if they've fallen in love with the brand and not just one particular property, we can always say, like, I'm so sorry, but the Pearson house is booked. But we do have the upstate River Retreat available for the same dates and it's, you know, decorated like this. And usually if somebody's reaching out over social media or direct booking, they've. They've already followed and like engaged with you and again, fallen in love with the brand. Like, they're not even picky about which property they go to unless one is smaller and it can't like fit the people they need. But outside of that, they just want to experience like the brand. I mean, it would be the same as, you know, think of these, like, hotel collections, the W or St. Regis, like these luxe hotel brands. Do you really care if you're staying at, at the W in Paris or the W in London? Like, maybe not. If you just want to go and like, experience that, that brand for itself. So that's something that we've really tapped into is, you know, not necessarily repeat guests, but just getting people to be happy with like whichever property they get and wherever they stay. But then of course, for repeats, we do have, you know, like postcards and stuff in the properties, like, stay with us again, scan this QR code, we follow up with messages. You know, book direct with us next time. If they do a direct booking, it's so much easier to just like recapture that. They're already on our email list and things like that. But yeah, that's. I've seen a lot of investors too who want to have like, something in like all different locations. Let's go open something in the Smokies and go open something in Montana, and you get pretty spread out. It's kind of nice to have everything in one area where people can, like, choose from just the different properties in the same. In the same concentrated area.

Yeah, that's a good point. It also helps out with what you're talking about earlier. You know, just with operations. I mean, if you've got all your properties in the same areas, can work with fewer. Fewer team members on the ground. These do sound like larger, more luxury properties. So can you tell me a little bit about your guys's operations and how you're handling that part?

Yeah. So operations, we do this total spread across all the nine or ten properties. Right now it's probably up to three and a half hours, like, between all of them to drive. So it's not as close as, like, my condos that I was. That I was managing. So we do have to have different, like, housekeeping teams and stuff. But at least from a launching perspective, we have the same contractors, and they're willing to drive a few hours so we can book them out and have a contractor team working for us exclusively right now. Like, we keep them busy with enough projects. So that's really nice. You just get consistency and work. And if we have leftover, like, trim and materials from one project, it just gets driven to the next one. So that's been helpful. But yeah, housekeeping teams and, you know, random, like, landscaping or, like, pool cleaners, like, things like that. We do have to localize a little bit more. I don't know if our landscaper would drive two hours between properties. These. But also on the remote front, like, your tech stack stays the same. Your pricing strategy vas handling messages, like, all of that. We can also standardize with just a few key players.

Right. Okay. Well, I'm curious how much you guys are actually investing back in these properties because you mentioned, like, the old granny. Yeah, you know, photos that. And it sounds like you're doing a lot. You mind sharing, you know, how much you guys are actually putting into and how long it takes.

Yeah, yeah. So really happy to say that our launch process has gotten shorter. We always tell investors it's about six months to renovate, but our last couple projects have come in at four months. So we're getting faster and more efficient with this. But, yeah, we always tell investors, plan for six just in case. And what was the other part of your question? How much we're putting into it. You know, it obviously depends on each property. Some need more work than others. But one thing we really focus on is right now there's a lot of talk in the STR space on things like, you know, don't even bother renovating the bathrooms. Like you'll hear that a lot. People will say that, like bathrooms don't make money. Nobody's booking an Airbnb because of the bathroom. They just want to see like the common areas or the backyard or the amenities where they're going to hang out. Maybe the kitchen. That's kind of the area where people focus and they'll tell you like, don't spend time on bathrooms, don't spend time on the laundry room. Like nobody cares about those areas. We have really taken the approach, like our bathrooms are so high end and so luxurious like bidets and heated floors. And like we really invest into the bathrooms nicely. We also do a lot of like, if the property needs a new roof or something, like we will not skimp on that, even if that's not technically the thing that people are booking for. But part of working with investors is especially if you have equity. And these aren't just like private money lenders, but if they're partners and they have equity, they'll get profit on the sale. And those are the things that improve your resale value and help the property appreciate. A pickleball court or a giant chess set might be popular for a short term rental, but that's not going to help a future buyer see more value in the home. So we do focus a lot on like fixtures and higher end tile and yeah, luxury finishes. Resurfacing hardwood floors, like repairing like wood trim, like if we can preserve any character, that's definitely something we try to do. Focusing on like wraparound porches, like all those like very unique things that will just add to the appreciation and then that helps us refinance and we can pay out investors sooner. So we really like to focus on like the actual appreciation and resale value of the home in addition to the amenities. But a lot of STR designers, like I said, they'll, they really like skimp on some areas and we'll just throw in like a fun wallpaper and a neon sign and more colorful throw pillows. And that hasn't really been our approach. Like we want to actually make the homes better than when we bought them.

Okay, so you guys are going back and pulling out equity then afterwards. Yeah, and, and it's interesting. You really are building your own comps. And so if someone's giving you a loan as a short term rental and they're pulling up your comps, you're creating your own value in the properties, which just is amazing. That sounds amazing. Yeah, definitely. And you do put in a lot of work. I think the other benefit to putting all the work up front is that you have less maintenance issues, you know, and you know, the Val bars are breaking off the wall or the roof leaks. That's never.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's like hard to view it that way because you put so much more work in at the beginning. But I think you're right. Like once it's launched, we're not. I mean obviously things break. I don't want to say it's like, you know, we never have to lift a finger again. Like of course you do. There is wear and tear involved with this. But that's a really good point. Like we, we try to concentrate more of the work in those like four to six months and then hopefully after that things are a little more well maintained. And I think too that the type of guest we have booking does treat the property better. Like when they can see that the, the hosts and owners put that much effort into it, I think that you just do attract better guests.

I agree. I agree. Well, very cool, Natalie. So it's been quite the journey from your, your portfolio now helping others invest in some beautiful sounding properties. Running the conference. What, what do you see happening over the next few years?

I think what I predict is going to happen in this industry in the next few years is like squeezing of the. I think like the middle short term rentals is going to get pushed out. I really think that we're going to see basically like top, top, top tier properties, like just the 1% of like beautiful destination luxury properties. And then I think that there's still going to be budget friendly options. But it's like that whole middle portion of listing that can't decide like they're not going to drop their rates to be a budget friendly option because they did spend a little more on it but they are not making enough to reinvest and bring it to that next tier. I think those are going to get squeezed out or maybe have to switch to like midterm rentals or long term rentals. Like that segment has just gotten so competitive. So that's kind of what I see like either just double down on being like a budget friendly place and don't even worry about like reinvesting and sucks to say but like just own what you have that it is like a worst experience. But you, if it's an economy choice or you need to really go all in on making the property the destination

yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. We see that in the numbers, you know, and all the markets that we're in and with Air DNA. I think the exciting thing though, still for me always in this industry, is that if you're doing a really good job operating, even if you're a budget or middle class or luxury, like, you still have to do a good job operating. And if you do, then you can earn a lot more than your competition.

That's so true. And you know, we talked a lot in this conversation about like, amenities and, and, and luxury and making the property nice. But something that just goes so far is respond to messages promptly, like communication and be clear when you communicate. And cleanliness. Like those are things that no matter what your home looks like right now or what amenities you have or what you're pricing it at, you can have better communication and better cleanliness standards. And guests do notice that stuff like that is something immediately within your control.

Definitely. Definitely. Well, Natalie, it's been great learning more about your story and everything you've got going on. Can you share with the audience again just where they can find you and your, your upcoming conference?

Yeah, for sure. So again, I'm Natalie Palmer. Thanks so much, Tim, for having me. And we've got Level up your listing summit coming up, our fourth year, March 29th through 31st in Phoenix. You can just to level up your listingsummit.com to find tickets to that or if you're interested in sponsoring or have any other ideas, connect with us there. And then I'm also the host of no Vacancy, the podcast. You can find that anywhere where you get your podcasts.

Awesome.