[Leadership] Career progression from the bench to sales leadership with Heather Brown

I went to LinkedIn, wrote down five different companies I thought were cool that I would like to work for. Went to the people section and then you can filter by keyword. So I would keyword business, keyword specialist, keyword liaison, different types of words like that that would fall in line with job titles that were people facing in the business sector. So once I did those keywords, got those lists of people, clicked on their page, looked at their posts, look what they were doing. If it looked like something, something cool, I would send him a message, say, hey, I see you work here. It looks like you're doing this kind of work. I'm graduating here. I think I'm interested in this type of skill set. Would love to learn from you. Do you have five minutes to tell me about your day to day? What I love about sales is everything is sales. Everything you do in life is sales. Whether I'm trying to get a conversation to learn about a job, whether I'm trying to get a job, everything is sales.

Andy, Heather, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to have you here.

Yeah.

Hi Harrison. Hi Nick. Thank you for having me.

So you may notice that Nick and I are together. We're in a co working space. You're in a co working space. So we kind of are making it work as we go. So hopefully the audio and we are hoodie co working. Co co working as we do. Awesome. Well, you know the drill. So I know you've listened to some of the episodes we've done before. So give us a crazy or funny story that's happening here for.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on today as well. I really appreciate the time and you're reaching out. I'm super excited to be here and I know that you start with this question every time and was racking my brain to kind of compete with some other stories and honestly the stories that I've heard from this podcast, top notch. So can't compete with that. But taking it in a slightly different direction. When I was, when I finished grad school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do with it. I knew I didn't want to be a postdoc and so trying to learn about ways I can apply my PhD for a job, the job I'm in now, I didn't even know existed back then. So it's pretty crazy to end up in a position that you a never even knew existed, could have imagined yourself in or even had a roadmap to get there. But you know, luckily I've had some great Mentors to help me along the way. But being in a job that I didn't know existed six years ago is pretty crazy to me.

Yeah, that is. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. It's interesting too, because you probably still interacted with salespeople while you're in the lab, but for some reason it's just like, I feel like it's a foreign concept and I know it's one of the things we're going to talk about today is like that transition from the lab into industry, particularly sales, and then that growth trajectory from sales into managing teams, regions and teams of teams and all that kind of good stuff. So, uh, yeah, it is kind of interesting though. Like, you know that sales is a thing, but you don't really like, associate it as like a viable option.

The preconceptions I had about what that job was, not even close.

Yeah, yeah, I, I had the thing of like, I could never do that job. When I saw people doing it, not only not knowing there's a career pub. I could never do that job. It must be so boring. Like, I just want to do science. That was my, like, that's no science. I was wrong.

Misconception.

Yeah.

And now his daughters, anytime he's out, he says he's a scientist, his daughters will just chirp at him from the back of the room. Be like, salesman. Yeah.

Get heckled at home on a daily basis.

Yeah. I interestingly get the opposite. I'll say, oh, I'm in biotech sales. And my family will say, she's a scientist.

So that's so funny. Nice. That's good. I know one of the main things you wanted to talk about today is sort of like career progression and thinking about that transition from the lab into sales. Which kind of leads the question of if you're at the bench today, particularly, let's say, in academia, how do you, how would you even like, know to think about sales? Like, what are the things that, like, how do you even recognize that it's a potential option for, you know, for a career path knowing that you didn't know about it, Nick didn't know about it. How does like, we bring awareness to this?

I guess that's a great question and something that I leaned heavily on while I was in that ending part of my PhDs. Knowing that I gotta, I gotta get a job eventually. I did a lot of informational interviews. So companies that I just knew about, you know, the big biotech companies, we can all think of. I went on LinkedIn and reached out to people and said, hey, tell me about your job. I, you know they would have a job upstream processing. I had no clue what that meant. It are business development. What is that? You know, people say industry and I really didn't know what that was. So I did a lot of LinkedIn reaching out, introducing myself, asking if I can learn from them in a 5, 10 minute conversation about what their job is in their day to day. And people turns out really like talking about themselves. So most folks said yes and I really learned a lot that way about what jobs are and what the day to day can look like.

Funny that you said like you didn't know what industry was and he didn't know what sales was. And I've always been told like academia, going to industry, even as a scientist that's going to the dark side and you get to industry and if you go into anything commercial, you've gone to the dark, dark side like right. It's crazy. So that's the kind of view you get of these things.

Right.

If you're in academia now in my position now, I see the great advantage to folks in the sales field in biotech because more and more and more is being asked of a scientist at the bench every single day where there's still one person. So they're trying to acquire tools and automation for their output to be bigger, faster, stronger every day for the demands that they're trying to meet the demands. Right. So they don't have time to be searching, reading method papers, looking at cited sources all the time to find the best tool to address their hypothesis and help them reach their goal faster. So that's where we come in, where I can help you achieve your efficiency goals, your deadlines in a way that you likely couldn't if you were the one that had to do all of that sifting through and vetting and learning at conferences of new technologies, new techniques. So, so I think that's a huge upside that we provide to help them not only in the science but just in their day to day output they're required to provide.

Yeah, we did a training last week and we were talking to somebody and they were basically saying that oftentimes they talk to customers and the customer already knows what they want or they think they know what they want. And how do you. It's like, it was like sort of the concept of like how do you convince them otherwise? But it was like an interesting framing or a different interesting set of word choices that really got me thinking. It's really like a mindset shift where I think what you're talking about is how can you help them solve and achieve their goals. Whereas I think sometimes we think of sales as like, you're selling to someone or like you're trying to push something onto somebody, when in reality, like, that's not really like, what I'd say the top sales reps are doing. They're not trying to sit there and just like, shove product down people's throats. Right. They're trying to actually, like, understand what, what that person's doing, what their goals are and how they could potentially help. And you have hundreds of conversations with scientists on a regular basis, and you can see across all sorts of different application areas, all sorts of different focus areas, like different methods, workflows, et cetera. And you have those insights that you can share. And I think that is something that's cool from a sales perspective where you're still in the science, but you get to do, like, all of the science rather than just like one specific niche or one specific thing that you're focused on that you might be doing in a lab.

Absolutely, that's a great point.

I think the other thing is that reps as well, when we go into. When we first start off, especially if you're a relatively junior rep, you go into a room and you're meeting Professor, PhD, wherever it may be, and you're like, well, they're an expert. So we associate that they are an expert, not they're an expert in their niche thing that they are doing. If I walk in the room and try to tell them how to do their specific protocol in their expert field. Yes, I'm an idiot for trying to tell them how to do that. But walk in and tell them something that's slightly adjacent to it that may help their protocol, then I'm supporting them.

Right.

So. And I think we just. Expert gets thrown around too much as it's a broad term for they know more than you and everything.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it. Enzo, we're a very technical company, so we have over 500 patents for the reagents and technologies we sell. So some folks simply just don't know they exist. And so they don't know that they can save time, you know, do less repeats, have a higher, you know, better granularity in their. In their quantification, etc. Unless I am there to facilitate that knowledge.

Yeah, exactly. Like they don't have time to look around for every single vendor that exists for solving that problem. And I think that's especially true too, where if you're at a really Small company. And you do, like, one thing very well. Like, I mean, think about when we were at Sentigo. We had. We did. We had. When we first started, it was like, we had the best guide RMA for, like, for editing from a CRISPR perspective. And then we had that niche locked. And so it was great for us where we had that level of expertise to share with people around that specific thing that we were experts at, because that's what we were trained on. But if we tried to tell them about, like, I don't know how to run their program for neuroscience, probably not going to go that well. Right. Like, and so you kind of have to, like, know your minor. Right.

He didn't like data. I don't remember who.

It was a puppy.

And they tried to present data to a Kol in that area, and it was pretty much his data. He was presented, just not realizing who was in the room.

Well, yeah, well, there was also a. There was also a funny one where early days, we were running some outbound campaigns, and I reached out to the guy who found. Who found it. Or, like, I figured out, like, RNAi as a technique and reached out to him, basically saying, like, hey, you should use crispr.

Okay. Yep. And he's like.

Funny. Really funny. Yeah.

But those things, they're.

They're rare.

Normally you're adding some kind of value.

Yeah. It's just fun.

But now you have a crazy story.

So there you go. Yeah. Apparently he put it up on stage at the event, was like, hey, look at this email I got. And he's just, like, making fun of me. It was funny. It's a long time ago now, back on track. So, yeah, I think. I think there's, like, this. So how would. How would you kind of think about that? If you're on the bench, you're maybe thinking about getting into sales. There is, like, basically this. This, like, opportunity that people are unaware of. And so you took the approach of, we need to go and talk. I need to go talk to as many people as possible. Maybe walk us through a little bit. Like, how you systematically did that in a way that then other people can maybe give that, you know, a go if they're in a similar situation.

Absolutely, absolutely. So first I thought about, well, I do a lot of visualization. So. So when I closed my eyes and thought about, what am I doing with this PhD? What am I wearing? What am I going somewhere? Am I home? Am I on a plane? Am I. You know, and it wasn't. It wasn't a lab coat and it wasn't you know, safety glasses. I've worked in, in, in you know, industry lab before but my PhD as well. It wasn't that kind of a image in my head, you know so I, I knew I wanted to be with people, I wanted to be engaging with folks on a regular basis. I wanted to be going to you know, conferences and still being in that, on that precipice of the, the academic or the scientific movements and I wanted to be in business clothes. Right. Not a lab coat like I said. So what kind of jobs are that? Does that mean is going to be folks in more of that like business side of biotech. So when I went to LinkedIn, wrote down five different companies I thought were cool that I would like to work for. Went to the people section and then you can filter by here keyword. So I would keyword business, keyword specialist, keyword liaison, different types of words like that that would fall in line with job titles that were people facing in the business sector. So once I did those keywords, got those lists of people clicked on their page, looked at their posts, look what they were doing. If it looked like something cool again my bar for, for wanting to talk to someone was pretty low. I really was at that learning stage so I would send them a message, say hey, I see you work here. It looks like you're doing this kind of work. I'm graduating here. I think I'm interested in this type of skill set, would love to learn from you. Do you have five minutes to tell me about your day to day?

Basically you're prospecting. Prospecting before we even do a prospecting. Right?

Yes. And in Harrison and Nick every something I love about sales too. Again science is my number one love science. That's why I'm here. What I love about sales is everything is sales. Everything you do in life is sales. So yeah, whether I'm trying to get a conversation to learn about a job, whether I'm trying to get a job, whether you know, everything is sales. So it's a, it's a very skill.

And everything science in sales.

Right.

So you was prospecting. He was actually running through an analytical step and investigating the data.

Yep, exactly, exactly. And if this, if this protocol works, I'll keep doing it. If it doesn't, where in that protocol do I need to switch? Absolutely.

I think nowadays even too like some of the stuff that you did you could probably just like throw into ChatGPT and be like hey, these are the things I like doing. What kind of jobs are available to Me in the sciences get a list of those things and then heck, you can just ask ChatGPT to give you a list of people at those companies. But, you know, you could take that information. But then I think what you did that I think is so valuable is you actually did the work to reach out to those people. It wasn't, you know, an easy click button where you could just click like, hey, I want to do this. And like you hit send and sort of automate stuff. You actually went through the work, you researched the person, you reached out to them, and then you were able to have those conversations to then determine go, hey, maybe sales is the right you kind of move.

Yeah. And I actually, as I know we'll get into it, but didn't start in sales in my current career either.

So where'd you go? Where'd you go next time?

So I started as an application scientist.

Okay.

@.

Enzo. That's interesting. Yeah, that's. That's pretty common. Right. It's like, it's easier transition, softer.

Transition. Yeah.

Absolutely. Getting into sals, that's so good. It's the nicotine vector. I'm still a scientist. I just help the SALS.

People. Yep, right, right. It definitely gives, gives you that time to become an expert in your company's technologies without the pressure of a number. And you can practice those customer interactions and practice, you know, explaining the technologies, learning what they're doing, helping them troubleshoot data analysis without the pressure of the reality of a.

Quota. So then you became an application scientist then, or application specialist. How did you then decide? Okay, now I want to go into the sales BD side of.

Things. The pattern I was noticing as an application scientist was the majority of my time with customers was spent helping them with data analysis in troubleshooting. So in sometimes experimental setup with our kits and technologies, and that felt more reactive and more of a focused task. Whereas the. My colleagues in the sales department had a lot more creative problem solving freedom. Because if, if your customer has a timeline where they're starting here with their hypothesis or their question, they're asking and they're ending here with the data. The. If you're talking with them at the stage of where they're asking a question, that's where the salesperson is typically talking with the scientists, you have a lot more freedom to creatively problem solve. I'm studying diabetes and I want to know how a cell therapy might work. That's. That's a lot to work with. A lot of creative scientific conversations can come from that discussion versus I'M studying diabetes. I've done this, this and this for the cell therapy and I want to know how to use this dye in this kind of cell. Right. So. So I think the more open ended creative part of the sales side was something that really interested me and really drew me to wanting to learn more about that versus the more narrowly focused application scientist day to day.

Workflow. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, and you, and you identified that from working with the sales team. So it was like you were on these calls, you were in the day to day and then you started to realize this and you said, hey, I want to. Let me raise your hand and say you want to kind of take into that role when, when.

Possible. Absolutely. And I do have to, I do have to give credit to some of my colleagues that did encourage me for that because as Nick was mentioning, the dark side of the dark side misconception. Right. I had some reservations about that and some preconceived ideas that were not true. And I had some really great colleagues and mentors saying, why don't you just give it a shot? If you don't like it, you can always go back. And I ended up loving.

It. I love that. And then I am look.

Back. That's correct. Still.

Here. And now you have new challenges now you have people challenges you have to work through now.

Right?

Yep. So I guess, okay, so that's another thing that we talk about. So now you're, let's say you're in a sales role now. How you know you're now, your performance is now very objective and which I think is very new for a lot of people that come into a sales role is they're used to, I don't know, maybe it's more subjective. They're not, it's not like, hey, you either hit your number you don't like, you hit 72% of your quota. Right. Like it's very quantitative, your success and it can be measured against other people in a similar quantitative way. Like what do you have any like learnings or stories there making that transition? Because like I know me personally, it's like I'm a very competitive person. Like I like that and I prefer to sort of be measured that way. But then some people don't love.

It. So I always say when I.

Talk to people, if you want to.

Get into sales before you answer, this is the best and the worst job in the world. And the reason it's the best and the worst job is because about black and white is right. What percentage did you hit? And you know, It's a like 0.001 of your.

Quota.

Right. And everything's.

Transparent. Absolutely. Absolutely. All of that is true. And I think something that has, that I've learned throughout this as well is taking some lessons from my time as a student athlete. I was a cross country and track runner all throughout high school and through college as well. I still run, but not competitively. And from doing athletics, it was always run your own race. Don't look at the scoreboard. So stay true ethically to your best. And so in sales, don't let. I don't let a high number. Let's say I'm blowing a quarter out. I don't let that dictate how hard I work on a daily basis. I'm going to play my own game. I'm going to push myself to the limits. No matter what that scoreboard says. If it's super low, I'm not going to throw in the towel and give up either. I'm still going to be, you know, putting myself to holding myself to that ethical standard of my best every single day. So whether you're blowing it out or you're trailing behind or you're right on par, don't let the scoreboard dictate your day to.

Day. I like that. And I think all of the best reps I've managed have had a similar approach, I think different drivers. So I would say my approach to sales was similar, but mine was just blind confidence that I thought no matter how low it was, I'd get there. Right. So I kept going for, I say.

Blind. Never.

Lacking. Exactly. Or I was already hit it, but I was like, well, I could try and drag this deal for a week, but what if something changes? Whereas if I close it now, I've got the deal. So, like, never quit in, no matter whether it was 10% or over 100%. Right. So my motivations for different people were different. But I think that attitude and that approach always worked in my.

Experience. Absolutely. And Nick, I think we all have a little bit of that blind confidence. If you don't, it's going to be a lot harder. I think we all think we can. We can just get there. Just one more deal. We could get.

There. I got 90% to go, but I'll find a. Wow. It's fine. We're going to find that. I'm closing in three days. It's all going to be.

Okay. You never know. Crazier things have happened, I'm.

Sure.

Exactly. Yeah. I think it's just really like that, that mentality shift that. Yeah, I liked your wording of you're going to run your race. Yeah, you're gonna, you know, you, you, you have to do what you need to do, but you can control. I think a lot of people fall into a trap. Oh, marketing's not sending me enough leads or budgets in my accounts are down or whatever it is. It is like external things that they say, like in order to almost come up with like, excuses for not performing well. And it's like your judge is to hit the number. So, like, do what you need to do. Do everything that you could possibly can and control to hit your number. So think of it as if marketing sending you leads, that's the cherry on top. I'm going to go out myself and prospect, find as many opportunities as I possibly can that I need to. To hit my number. And then anything else that they generate puts me in the accelerators. Those mental. And so I think there's like that mindset shift that a lot of people, even experienced reps can, can, can work through. I actually, frankly, I think the more experience you get and the more used to getting marketing leads and inbound flow, you, you get, you become softer in that you just expect that to be the way you hit your number instead of having to do the hard work of prospecting and building a pipeline, taking all those deals to close.

Yourself. So, but also, I think what you described was a system. And there's a bit of a flowery quote that I quite like that is you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And I think that's what you describe. You've got a system, you go through it, and the outside of the goals and what you're going to hit, you're going to keep doing your system because it's reproducible and you know, it works. And I think that's the important point there. Just you have a process and you drive for it. You can test the process scientifically.

And you can press it, but absolutely. And I read this book years ago called Extreme Ownership, written by a Navy seal, and it was about, about just that, taking ownership over every single variable that you have control over. And if you've done that, you will never have a regret. You will not. You can't. You won't be wondering, oh, well, if I only took advantage of this one variable that I forgot about or I didn't care about. So if you can take ownership over every step of the way and every Variable, you can then, of course, there might be reasons for hitting your number, not hitting your number, et cetera, but at least you know you controlled every step of the way. So.

Absolutely. For someone who's hearing that kind of approach or the extreme ownership thing first, I think it's important to realize that doesn't mean that you control.

Everything. Right.

Absolutely. Assess all of the steps, realize what you have impact and control on, and take action on those. So especially when you get to the point where your manager, you've got a team, you're not the expert in everything, and there are people you should pass this off to, but that's having control over it and ownership. Right. That's dealing with it. So I think some people hear that quote or phrase and think it's unrealistic, but it's not. It's saying you need to understand all steps and then take action on the ones you.

Can. Yep, absolutely. And there can be reasons. A reason in an excuse are two different things. And there's of course, going to be reasons that provide context to the reality that we're in. So that's, that's important to remember as.

Well. Okay, so now you've crushed your number multiple times and they're like, hey, we want you to come lead a team. We want you to manage a.

Team.

How. How's that transition gone for.

You? Luckily, again, I have amazing folks around me who are great mentors and great leaders for me that I can lean on and learn from. So credit to them, first and foremost, to investing in me and guiding me and teaching me and being a resource for me, first and foremost. And with that, it's a lot of patience, grace, messing up, doing better next time whenever you're in a new position. Right. And especially with leading, leading people. Now I'm learning a lot about personality types and motivators, not just for myself. So I'm trying to learn how to speak and speak to different folks and communicate effectively to help them succeed, because that's why I'm here, is for my team to succeed. So however I can do that is what I'm going to try to do. And so learning to do things differently to help someone succeed is something that I've been working on as.

Well. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel that there are a lot of, there's a lot of training for reps. There's a lot of training, like around products, there's a lot of training around the services, the tech, whatever it is that you provide. But the number one, I think under trained group of people are sales managers, especially like your first time in sales management? I think we were both lucky in that we had a great manager when we were starting to get into the management role, who invested a lot in us, and we did a lot of sales management training courses. But I find that a lot of people don't. And so they kind of get thrown into this new situation and they just have to like, figure out like, okay, cool, how do I coach a rep? What is coaching? How do I hold people accountable? How do I have difficult conversations? How do I translate what leadership wants me to do down to the team? How do I, you know, ensure reps are doing what they need to do without micromanaging? And what is micromanaging? Do people actually need micromanagement sometimes? When do you, when do you let people go? How do you, you know, there's so many things that happen in management that nobody is prepared for. And I, yeah, I, so I don't know. I don't know if you're thinking about things that you're doing, you know, on, on your own to kind of. You'll build up your skill set there. But I, it's just something I, I notice and so I just want to flag that for anybody listening. Make sure you train your managers because they're going to get the most out of your sales team as.

Well. Absolutely. That's, that's a great point. And those are all things too, that you don't learn necessarily learn in your, our scientific training as well. Right. So a lot of this is learn on the job again, learning from my, my, the team around me and continuing to grow on my own as well. So a lot of the. I know you've had some folks on your podcast that have gone from being an individual contributor to being a manager. So I've listened to, you know, and going into leadership. So I've listened to those podcasts. There's a lot of great books out there about leadership and leading a team that I've read and continue to read. So doing those types of things are essential for me as I learn and continue to grow in a leadership.

Position. Yeah, I think one of the things is if you love being a rep and you love having a black and white target and going after it and feeling that sense of achievement when that becomes by proxy for. Imagine a manager is a. Can be tough. So like, when things are going well, you're lucky, you've got a great team. When things are going badly, what are you doing? So it's, you have to be prepared for.

That. Yeah, I see it a little bit as I'm an NFL fan as well. So it's a little bit of like being the, the quarterback of the team. You. It's your fault when your team wins and it's your fault when your team loses. So I, I do appreciate and acknowledge the privilege of having that type of pressure, and I, I am grateful for that. And so I remember that every day where, you know, whatever happens, I'm taking responsibility for my team. So what can I do right now tactically and short term and long term to make sure that they are successful then therefore successful as a.

Team. Who's your NFL.

Team? Side.

Quest? The Bills. Upstate New York. Go.

Bills. All.

Right. All right. That's.

Fine. I asked a question. I was never. You don't need to.

Answer. You know, two teams in the NFL.

Probably. Yeah, the blue ones and the red.

Ones. Is.

It. There you.

Go. That's the.

Best. Obviously. I knew.

That. Oh, that's good. So there's one other question, sort of on the management front. So what would be your advice to maybe some reps who are reps today that may be thinking about career progression? Because I think there is this thought that I'm a rep, I need to go into management if I want to progress my career. Maybe that's not always the case, but, like, it is a very different job. So, like, do you have any sort of maybe advice for reps that are thinking about that today and how they might decide if that's the right thing for.

Them? A couple of things come to mind with that, where if you like the fact that as an individual contributor, as a rep of a territory, that the rest of the company, the rest of the territories, you don't really care what's happening, you're focused on your territory, whether you're hitting your quota, whether you're making commission, the rest of the territory is no stress. Who cares? You know, and so if you like having that, that focused responsibility where you're just responsible, just responsible for your territory, it doesn't matter if the company's going down, you're doing well, you get your commission, There you go. Then that's a great place to stay. Because when you move into a leadership role, you do have to care about the entire company, you do have to care about every single person's territory, and you do have to see it from a bigger picture. So you can't necessarily say, you know, end of the quarter, hit my number, I'm going to shut my computer down. You know, you have additional folks on Your team, additional territories that are now become your responsibility. And again, that's a privilege to have. But if you're, if you just want to focus on what you do and that's, that's, there's nothing wrong with that, that's great. Folks can be very successful doing that, then staying in a rep type role is probably best. If you feel, you know, you know, compelled or called to manage more people and have a bigger, you know, a different kind of impact on the company, where you do want to be involved in the other territories and the revenue and maybe some strategic decisions, then maybe moving into management is a good idea for you as well because they are totally different jobs. And, and one more point on that as well is, you know, as the rep, a lot of times they say, here's your number, make it happen. So you are taking a concept and turning it into tactical steps that create a result that is similar to being in management. So when you do manage a team, you get, you know, a, here's the company wide goal, here's the, you know, the, the corporate goals manager, make your team, do it, here you go. And you're making those tactical steps. So that's some, that is something that's similar across both types of.

Positions. I think that is great, great advice. I always like to say, if you're a rep and you want to make less money and deal with more people's shit, go into management. Because I think if you're okay doing that, I think it works. But to your point, I think you laid out much more elegantly, you got a lot of nuance there because it really is a people job more than it is a sales role at that point and being a lone soldier, a lone hunter is not really conducive to.

That. Yeah, the difference between you said you have an action plan in your territory, you're going to go off and do it and you're going to implement it. If one of those steps doesn't get done, you only have to shout at yourself. When you're a manager, you have to worry about everybody's step in everybody's action plan and then you got to start shouting at random.

People. Well, I know we're right up on time and Nick has to jump to another call, but Heather was really a pleasure kind of talking through all of the details from bench into leadership. And so I think this would be useful for anybody listening. And yeah, if anybody wants to get in touch with you, where should they find.

You? I am on LinkedIn. Heather Mary Brown, PhD. I had to use my middle name in there because there's hundreds of thousands of Heather Brown. So Heather mary brown on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach.

Out. Yeah, we'll link it in there. Yeah, show. That's as.

Well. We've done the labtum some sales manager. We'll catch up soon when it's a manager to.

Exec. Right, there you go. You know where to find.

Me. Well, thanks, Heather. We'll talk.

Soon. You bet. Thank you both. Have a great.