[Sales] Selling new technologies to biotech and pharma with Jeff Bissen

I think no matter what you do, you need to find some way to stand out from the crowd. Because I know they're getting cold emails left and right and it's so easy to ignore them. So somehow I need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. And there's multiple ways you can do this. You guys yourselves, you have your podcast here. I mean, that's a fantastic way to get your brand out there, be top of mind and sort of warm things up before you send that cold email. So then you're not a stranger. You're the guys who host that podcast that I listen to or I know other salespeople or, you know, BD friends of mine who host events, and that's their kind of top of funnel process prospecting engine is they're just sort of a facilitator of their local biotech community of, you know, hosting events around San Diego or wherever they live and just fostering genuine community and then kind of using that as a springboard to identify the right people. So no matter how you do it, whether it's LinkedIn or a podcast or events or anything else, just finding some way to be a known voice within the research community that you're selling into. So that way, when you send that cold email, it's not actually that cold. You are, you're someone that they've been following online or you're somebody whose events, like, gone to you.

All right, we have a returning guest on the podcast. Jeff is back with us. And today we're going to talk all about selling new technologies into biotech and pharma. So for all you out there who have new, innovative tech, Jeff's going to share a bunch of insights that he has in his new role and how we can use it across different channels. Great to have you back, Jeff.

Oh, yeah, glad to be back. Good to catch up with you too.

So where should we begin? If somebody joins a new company and they're like, hey, this technology is really cool, we don't have that many different competitors out there. Maybe there's a large education gap within the market. Where should they start?

Yeah, big question. I think there's a lot of ways I could tackle that, but I guess one thing I would hone on in right away is you said not a lot of competitors, and I generally find that's not true. Sure, you might not have a lot of competitors in terms of actual companies offering a similar technology, but there is always some type of competition because, you know, whatever workflow you're selling into, whether it's drug discovery or clinical trials or what have you, your customers are getting the job done some way. So even if they're not buying from a direct competitor, they're competing with another technology and you need to get them to switch from that.

Yeah, like their status quo, whatever their workflow is that they're doing today, they probably think it's working just fine. So you have to figure out how can you sort of disrupt that status quo? If you will get them to think about what is it like thinking about having more novel technology, bringing that into the lab, highlight the benefits of that. What do you kind of think are the ways to do that?

Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, you got to kind of understand where your customer's at, because some of them might not need that. A lot of education. So in my particular case, I'm selling organonic chip technology to drug discovery teams. So maybe they're already deep in the organometership world and they don't need a whole lot of education. Maybe I can dive straight into the details and give the pitch about, you know, why we're better than the company that you're currently working with or why we're better than the solution that you developed in house. But, you know, in other cases, they're probably using, like you said, some other status quo, which in my case is animal models or 2D cell culture. So I need to come in and talk about the pros and cons of that existing technology. Talk about how, for example, mice are generally poor predictors of toxicity, and that's a big reason why phase one trials fail and kind of getting them to realize what are the gaps in the current workflows? You know, how are animal models, how are 2D cell culture systems, you know, not accurately recapitulating the complexity of human biology? And how can this organ on a chip platform kind of fill in those gaps and better prepare you for phase one? So it's really just a matter of understanding where the prospect is along that journey. So it's kind of like with very quickly, within the first, like 30, maybe 60 seconds of talking to them, kind of gauging where they're at, because you don't want to bore them with unnecessary details if they're already educated. But you also don't want to skip too far ahead, and then, you know, they're just kind of giving you a blank expression, not really knowing the relevance of what you're saying.

And so I guess that's interesting, right? So how do you pull that out in that first 30 to 60 seconds to where then you could tailor that rest of that conversation, you know, appropriately.

Depends on the context, you know, whether it's, say, a networking event or a conference or a cold email. I'll guess I'll speak about networking events just because, you know, I'm quite new in my role, only seven weeks in so far, far. But, you know, the interactions that I've had so far have mainly been in networking. So I just kind of come in with some type of icebreaker about, you know, what is the research that they're working on to see if they're even relevant at all. Because maybe they're on the clinical trial side, which is frankly too far downstream to me. So then I can kind of politely cut that conversation short and make sure I'm talking with somebody who's within the area of drug discovery. So it might be a basic question about, you know, where do you fit within drug discovery? Are you kind of early lead id, Are you doing, you know, more late stage toxicity, or are you in clinical trials? And that can very quickly tell you where somebody sits within that spectrum of drug discovery and development. And then within there just maybe asking, what are the models that you're currently using? Or have you heard about organ on a chip? Or how are you predicting toxicity right now? Various ways you can come at it, but just very quickly trying to identify where they are within that spectrum of drug discovery and development and then understanding, you know, what are they currently using at that stage of research.

One of the things I've been involved in a few companies selling what I'd call disruptive or new technologies. And one of the challenges I found, curious of your take on it, is that often people think, oh, this is a cool technology. I love what we do, it's amazing. It's the best science ever. And then they go tell all of their clients, we've got this thing and it solves all of your problems and it's the best thing you've ever seen, right? Where in reality, you probably solve some of their problems, causes a few pains as well. But like, they, they need to be able to position it in their workflow. But often founders are so drink. They drink in the Kool Aid. Is that the American phrase? They're so like embedded in their own technology and they're trying to push it. The solution for everything.

Yeah, for sure. Good point. I mean, to some extent that infectious enthusiasm is a good thing because if you're not excited about your tech, well then why would the prospect be so it's not a bad place to start. But I think, you know, and I'm certainly guilty of this as well, is, you know, reminding yourself not to, I guess, maybe skip a step in the process, because if you come in right away and say it's going to solve all your problems, it's the best thing ever. Well, what problems? The best at what? So I guess we're kind of getting back to that education topic now of you need to sell the problem before you can sell the solution. So again, in my case, with drug discovery and, you know, making predictions of toxicity, if they have no complaints about their model right now, if they really think that they can confidently predict, you know, toxicity in human patients, well, then I'm going to have a hard time selling a solution that's meant to improve upon that problem. So, you know, it's kind of getting them to admit that they have a problem that you can solve. So in my case, if they don't admit that there are limitations in their models with regard to predicting efficacy and toxicity, well, then I'm never going to get beyond that first step.

I think sometimes the challenges are they're so embedded in the technology, or maybe like I've been at a thing where I'm showing somebody what is probably a better, more scientifically accurate way of measuring something. But they wrote the sop, they wrote the protocol, they wrote publications on this protocol. They're so embedded in that, and the whole company's embedded in it. That cost of change or cost of ego as well, could be too big to get over. And you need to identify that as well, right?

Yeah, for sure. Cost of change, cost of ego. And that's, that's definitely a big barrier to overcome, particularly with solutions that they need to implement. Like if you're convincing them to buy an instrument or buy reagents that requires training and onboarding and maintenance and all these things, that's a big sell. Luckily, in my case, I'm selling a service, so to some extent I can kind of lean into those objections and say, hey, I know it's challenging. I know you've been on the fence about organ on a chip because it sounds exciting, but you don't want to learn this whole new technique. Well, that's exactly where we come in by offering you the benefits of this organ on a chip technology, but really taking all the hard work off your hands because you just outsource it to us. So to some extent, you know, the outsourcing play kind of nips that in the bud right away, but, you know, introduces another complaint, which is, I Guess when you're selling to lower level or you know, individual contributors is kind of back to that ego point you mentioned. You might feel, or they might feel that you're encroaching upon their job. You know, if they're no longer doing all their experiments, if some of it's outsourced to you, then you know, they might be kind of a barrier in your sales process.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. So, yeah, it's kind of like what I'm kind of hearing. There's like an educational component. You have to educate about the new technology while simultaneously highlighting problems that they might be facing and then also simultaneously navigating their ego. And if you're offering a service, making sure that you're also not making them feel like you're replacing their job.

Yeah. So you really gotta sometimes easy in a lot of ways.

Yeah. Very straightforward.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's good to be aware of these potential issues and I guess address them head on or avoid them altogether. So, you know, in my case, if I'm selling a service and I might be concerned about individual contributors feeling threatened by the outsourced work, well, maybe I just don't talk to the individual scientists that much and I just go straight to the directors and the VPs.

There's one thing too is like in any of these sort of new technologies, there's always a spectrum or whatever, the adoption curve. Right. You have the early adopters who, they're always up to date on the latest and greatest technology. They're always willing to test it out, they want to try new things. Then you sort of have that middle majority where you have to really convince people, get them to change their minds. And then you have the late adopters even later, which are just like, you know, five years from now, they're just starting to use CRISPR or something. Right. Like there's all of these like, different. Again I think you mentioned earlier, it's like, where is that person in the spectrum of the. Of like their knowledge of like what they're willing to try and do is in the lab. Yeah.

And certainly different people within the same lab can have different opinions. For example, one person I was speaking with at a networking event a couple weeks ago, she herself was very interested in this technology and if it were up to her, she would adopt it. But her PI was kind of old school and, you know, didn't see a problem with the status quo of animal models and 2D culture systems because, you know, that's the way the industry has worked for a While, and frankly you don't need or we're going to chip data for IND submission, it's helpful. I think it would be really, really beneficial in a lot of cases. But I admit that it's not strictly necessary. So if a customer says we're fine without it, we're okay doing what we've been doing. You know, some people just aren't on that point of the adoption curve yet. And that's okay. I think to some extent you try to convince them, but to some extent I should just triage that accordingly and move on to another prospect.

It's a fair point. I think the one thing as well that like as a word of warning, I'm sure you come across in Stephano Harris or whatever word of warning to anyone who's selling a new technology and think they're going to identify their early adopters. It's not always where you expect. So you'd think academics are going to jump on it and love it because they're looking for the new technology and you'd think that store buyer tech move more quickly. I remember in the case of crispr, we were working with a large pharma and they turned out to be one of the earlier doctors just because of an individual in a senior level there really liked CRISPR and thought it was.

The next big thing.

Right. Normally pharma are like turning a juggernaut.

Right.

It takes forever, you can't go do anything. But in this case they were like pushing ahead of the pack. I think it is. It's something you need to identify that you should. You always look for those blind spots as well.

Yeah.

And I like a point that you brought up implicitly there, which is that you don't sell to companies, you sell to people within those companies. So of course, you know, I totally agree that there's a stereotype that large pharma moves slowly. Small, medium biotech, they can be, you know, I guess on the surface, one dimensionally, you know, easier to sell to. But you never know because if you find some champion within the organization like you did in your case, then that can really speed things up. So it's just finding the right people, not necessarily just the right companies.

Yeah. Which kind of leads into like how you sort of prospect into those accounts too then. Right. It's. You have to find the right people within that account. You can't just be like, cool, I'm going to like email these three people and you know, hope for the best. Which I think is a very common approach. And oftentimes it's like, oh, I'm just going to send them an email. And they send one email. And then that's like done and done. Right? But, like, if you really want to get in front of the right people, there is a volume game that you have to play. Like, you have to reach out to enough people from a volume perspective and across different channels. And some people might say that, you know, you love LinkedIn as a, as a channel. And so I'm sure, I'm sure you have some ideas there even is how you can like leverage these different channels to kind of find, find these, like the right individuals that kind of match that profile for those that would be maybe on that early adopter curve.

Yeah, for sure. And I agree that finding the right people within an account is probably the most difficult thing because you can't just, I don't know, look at job titles and know who the right person is. You just kind of, to some extent, gotta throw a model up against the wall and see what sticks. Obviously there's a more systematic way to do it. I'm not saying to be totally haphazard, but you just don't know until you try and see what gets a response.

And not enough people have like, early Organ on a Chip adopter as a title.

Exactly. So you gotta, you know, read between the lines. And every job has this. You know, if you're selling, say, formulation development services, you might go after people in CMC departments or in my case now with organonic chip, I'm gonna look at job titles like drug discovery or pre clinical or translational keywords like that. But, you know, when you start engaging with these people, how do you find them? Right? I mean, that's the magic question. And I think no matter what you do, you need to find some way to stand out from the crowd. Because I know they're getting cold emails left and right and it's so easy to ignore them. So somehow I need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. And there's multiple ways you can do this. You know, my personal preference is LinkedIn and we can talk about that. But before diving down that rabbit hole, I mean, there are certainly other ways. I mean, you guys yourselves, you have your podcast here. I mean, that's a fantastic way to get your brand out there, be top of mind and sort of warm things up before you send that cold email. So then you're not a stranger. You're the guys who host that podcast that I listen to or I know other salespeople or, you know, bd friends of mine who host events, and that's their kind of top of funnel prospecting engineering is they're just sort of a facilitator of their local biotech community of, you know, hosting events around San Diego or wherever they live and just fostering genuine community. And then they kind of using that as a springboard to identify the right people. So, you know, no matter how you do it, whether it's LinkedIn or the podcast or events or anything else, just finding some way to be a known voice within the research community that you're selling into. So that way when you send that cold email, it's not actually that cold. You're someone that they've been following online or you're somebody whose events they've gone to you.

Yeah. They recognize your name, more like data and respond from there. Right.

And just in case you're wondering, I just checked, there's zero results for early organ on a chip.

Yeah, yeah, thanks for that, Nick. Everybody needed to know that just in.

Case everyone was wondering. All sitting there, not sure we now know.

Yeah, I think the, the standing out is a big one. You know, the content. So, like nowadays, because I think email and other channels are so. No noisy. You. You really have to be everywhere all at once, if you will. Right. It's not as simple. You can't just say, hey, I'm going to like email this person or I'm just going to LinkedIn this person, or I'm just going to pick up the phone and call this person, or I'm just going to go to events. You really have to be doing everything holistically if you're really going to try, if you really do want to stand out. And I think that's hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around because it's a lot of work. And yeah, like, if you want to do the amount of work that everybody else is doing, you're going to get the results that everybody else is getting. If you want to truly find ways to stand out, you have to be unique. You have to go above and beyond. You have to do things that are outside of what everybody else is. The status quo, if you will.

Yeah. And have an opinion. I think this is another.

That's a good one.

Big thing is to don't be afraid to be contrarian. So when you're going out there, making content, hosting events, having a podcast, just sending emails, talking to conferences, whatever, you should be okay with having some people very strongly disagree with you. Because if you're just trying to come at the market with this soft messaging to try to appeal to everyone. It's just. Or forgettable. It might sound a little bit harsh, but I mean, there should be some enemy, so to speak, that you're fighting against. So in my case it's, you know, animal models. I think animal models are very poor predictors of toxicity and some people are going to disagree with me and of course I see the utility in animal models, but that's sort of the boogeyman that I'm playing against.

That's the enemy you've chosen.

Exactly. Yeah. So I'm looking for other people who to some extent are frustrated with the limitations of animal models and how very often we see that drugs seem safe in mice but then end up failing in humans. And this is one of the biggest reasons for phase one failures. And of course we're so similar. Yeah, well, you know, we look like.

A mouse, Nick, so there you go.

But you know, it has been the status quo and you know, it's the way that the industry works. So I know that some people are just going to think I'm being ridiculous. I'm being too, I don't know, simplistic with my evaluation and to some extent that's, that's on purpose. But I need to have some type of clear message because if I can't have a well articulated opinion within 30 seconds, then, you know, what am I standing for? I'm fine if people say no to me. I'm not okay with people not even understanding what I do and ignoring me for that reason.

Yeah, and I think too when you do have one of those strong points of view, you, you detract the people who aren't going to buy from you anyway. But then you attract the people who do have that similar set or that similar viewpoint. I think this is also why social media in general is so divisive because you've got like, people are just fed the same stuff that feeds like their exact viewpoints of what they think about and they don't see the other side very much or if they do see something from the other side, it's like, nah, you're wrong. But like that also in the same, like psychological factors like brings the people to you that think the same way that you do and then those people are going to probably be more likely to convert, want to meet all that kind of good stuff.

Yeah, exactly. So on that note, we can probably get a little bit more granular about how to use LinkedIn to find those people because of course nobody explicitly says in their Profile as a job title, you know, early adopter of organ on the chip technology. And nobody is explicitly raising their hand saying, please come talk to me, unless you have a fantastic marketing team that's really delivering high quality inbound leads. So then how are you, as a salesperson or a BD person going to read between the lines and see the people who are sort of implicitly raising their hands? So in my case, you know, LinkedIn, you know, I post two to five times a week, I send out connection requests, you know, I'm commenting on other people's posts so I can just look at who's engaging with me and use that as a springboard. Of course, just because somebody likes a post, that doesn't mean they want to have a 30 minute call with me. But it's just one vote in favor of, well, maybe this person's a bit more likely to respond to outbound. So I'm going to prioritize people who engage with my content and you know, I'll see a higher response rate till the two messages there as opposed to people who are totally cold and just kind of filtering my outbound efforts that way.

Yeah, like nowadays too, there's so many tools where you can just like make posts, people engage with them that automatically gets scraped and put into a database where it gets then, you know, filtered for ICP fit and then you know, those just get surfaced to you or you can even like, you know, reach out to those people directly. So there's like all these ways that you could do some of that other stuff as well to like make that process even easier. And then you're just like putting out that content and then you have this like flywheel of like, cool. I'm creating content, I'm getting engagement and now I'm making sure I'm reaching out to the right people or those people are being surfaced to me.

I'm sure you guys could teach me a thing or two about like, you know, more sophisticated software stack on the back end. I think my big thing is the front end content. But I think with regard to, you know, scraping and these other more technical things I mentioned, I'm a little bit behind there.

A bit like you were the organoids. Luckily we could try to educate when we don't have to. We have a service if you're interested, reach out.

Right. That's funny. But yeah, I think the other thing too, from a content perspective, I think the most common posts that I see from sales or BD people in the life sciences and you probably can already Picture this post in your head, but it's the group of them standing at the event saying, hey, we're at this event. Come by our booth.

Right.

Like every single, like that is the content that gets posted on LinkedIn. But that's not the kind of content that your buyers are going to be interacting with or that are going to be interested in learning about. Right. Like, you probably want to do that, but you also need other content that is educational. Talking about the enemy that you're trying to disrupt. Right. Like, you have to have other elements to this.

Yeah.

Not just conferences, but also just the copy paste of a press release or, oh, here's a link to our publication. Or, you know, enter your email address to download our new white paper. It's important stuff, like it's part of the marketing mechanism, but there's a certain way to pitch it in the LinkedIn post because, you know, people don't care about your white paper, they care about the problem that they have. So if you open the post with, you know, the, the headline about the problem, that's, that's your hook. You educate them through the post and then at the end of the post, you know, that's your call to action of. If you want to learn more, download the white paper, that's fine. But if your post is just check out our new white paper, that's probably not going to get a ton of engagement.

Yeah. And I think too now, especially with the way the LinkedIn algorithm is. Right. You'd probably actually know more about this than I will. But I think comments are the number one indicator of if a post is going to go, quote, unquote, viral. So the more comments that you can elicit, one, having a point of view is going to elicit comments. Two, actually trying to start conversations via LinkedIn, trying to actually elicit some sort of response or feedback from people or having them make comments, those are the types of posts that are going to have the best chance of like, reaching more people.

Yeah, absolutely. And actually I, I've started paying more attention to some other metrics that are less obvious because you can go on an individual post, look at the analytics, and you can look at things like how many people saved the post, how many sent it in a message on LinkedIn. Because if you just look, you know, you can very obviously see like the likes, the comments, the shares, but if you go to another level, deeper, I think, yeah, it's important to look at who's saving it, who's sharing it, like within a private message, because that's how, you know, something is like so valuable that they bookmarked it for later or so valuable that they sent it in a private message.

Yeah, that's really good. Is that, does it tell you who did it?

Unfortunately, no. At least not that I know.

Yeah. All right, that'd be nice. But yeah, I think those are. But again, that kind of comes back to again, like, what's the quality of that post? Like who's going to be bookmarking what booth somebody's at for an event or who's going to be bookmarking or sharing that around internally. Right. So it's like thinking about what is the right type of content that your prospects care about.

Yep. And one other point about having a point of view or a strong opinion. I think it's not just the content itself and it's not just your scientific opinion, but it's also, I think your writing style. So, you know, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you know, I like memes, just dumb science memes, which it does surprisingly well.

People love memes. Crush.

Yeah, people love a nerdy pun, it turns out. So like, for example, I did a post last week about JPM and I could have just done a basic, you know, picture of, you know, San Francisco or you know, the JPM logo, whatever, but I just had a silly little meme. The, the body. The content of the post was the same, but if the image is like the first thing that people see when they're scrolling and I know that's when it's going to get them to stop and decide as they click see more, then sure, I'll make a dumb little joke so they stick around for the meat of the post.

Yeah. And you did a post to like today, yesterday or something. I was blowing up, I don't know, about like 100 comments or something. I was wild. But it was. You were tagging a bunch of other people about like people to follow for like niche biotech content. And, and I think what's like, obviously not everybody's going to make posts like that, but like there's ways that you could like identify interesting publications or interesting data sources or interesting things that are out there in the, in the same world that you are, that your prospects care about. And you could do a similar post like, here's your 10 weekly roundup of like the 10 most interesting things related to organ on a chip. Right. Or related to non animal toxicity studies. And like something like that could be a really good way to get engagement because you're now building relationships with those People because you're showcasing their work and it's not your company's work, you're showcasing their work, which could be cool.

Yeah, absolutely. And lists for example, like you mentioned are a good type of post. I mean the one you, you called out was, yeah, 30 people. I recommend following on LinkedIn, which has nothing to do with organ on the chip technology or drug discovery. So it's just kind of one of these more general top of funnel posts. But you can do other things like you know, 10 clinical trials within cardiology or you know, here are all the, the, the biotech IPOs that happened within the past month or here are like you suggested, maybe 10 publications in your particular research area. So lists like that, among other types of content can be a good thing. You don't want to be a one trick pony and just list after list after list. But it's a good go to format.

That I, we can all do the companies that IPO'd in the last month at the minute, it's a really easy list to build. It's normally quite short at the moment. Like we could all get that done.

Yeah, yeah. But Anise, who run, who created tldr, which is like a newsletter for like, it's like a daily newsletter or something like the latest news and stuff. And I think he really built up his LinkedIn following from doing similar things. It's like, hey, I'm going to curate these pieces of content that are interesting that people care about. You post about them on LinkedIn and then that helped build up like the newsletter following as an example. So like, while yes, that is a broader use case, I think the similar things can be applied to any niche that you're in.

Yeah, I think the overarching theme is just to be helpful because you don't just want to talk about you and your company and your solution nonstop. Of course you got to work that in sometimes because that's the whole point. I'm not LinkedIn for vanity metrics. It is ultimately supposed to drive business. But if you're just genuinely helpful to your prospects, you build up a community online, you know, share helpful publications, then you know, on occasion when you say, you know, 20, 30% of the time, explicitly pitch your company, they're more receptive to it because you know, they like the other content that you do and you're just generally kind of a helpful person within their research space.

I also think people worry about that sort of stuff too. You should definitely do exactly what you said and only be like a very small percentage of time you're pitching. But we're all on LinkedIn generally for the same reasons. It's not like a pure social network, so no one's too offended, but they will unfollow you if that's all you do.

Right.

And I think a lot of people, we've had this conversation with people like when they say, how do you start posting? How do you not worry about the embarrassment and blah, blah. And it's essentially just like you just have to get over it and go over yourself. But just post because you've all got something interesting to say and help. Ego was already great. I thought I was going to be a legend from day one, but that's, that's my ego. Right.

So.

But most people have to get over something to start posting.

Well, on that note, I'll go back to Harrison's earlier point about comments. Comments are super important in general. I mean I, I still comment alongside my posts, but if you're one of those people who sees the value in LinkedIn but you're not sure where to get started, comments are perfect. So, you know, for example, go to that post I did recently check out those 30 people I, I highlighted. Go follow a few, you know, whoever's most relevant to whatever you're doing and just see what they're posting and start commenting. Because comments are a nice way to spark genuine discussion. And especially with LinkedIn these days, you can actually, it'll show you which comments got the most impressions. So you can obviously see who liked your comments, but you can actually see how many views a particular comment got. So if you do say, I don't know, five comments a day. Actual comments, not things like congrats, good work, like nice publication, but like genuinely adding to the discussion. And you do, I don't say five or so comments a day. And then you just look and see, well, which comment got the most likes, which comment got the most views, then turn that into a post on its own. Yeah, it's actually a really good way to test the waters. And it's still a common way that I come up with my own post ideas is I'll just make comments and.

Be like, wow, that's a good comment. I should probably just like make a post out of it too. And then you can do it right then. And then just schedule it for later. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Well, is I, I went on a little rabbit hole, deep dive on like what things will impact because I couldn't work out why something that seemed relatively good got like one person view. It and something that seemed fairly pointless got like about 10,000, you know, I'm trying to work out what's going on and how you can impact that slightly. Right. A sign who is looking for the data, but instead that actually if you spend the time on LinkedIn before you post doing things like comment, like moving around LinkedIn pages, it sees you as an active user and will promote your post more. Don't know how true it is because a lot of things out there that tell you do it stock, but apparently that's one of the sort of algorithm cheats.

I, I agree with that. I, yeah, I, I, I've seen the same thing. And of course it's always tough to know if it's accurate because, you know, the algorithm's always changing. But it just makes sense to me. Right, because the analogy I've heard about LinkedIn is it's, it's like a networking event and if you're just posting but not commenting on other people's posts, or if you're not responding to the comments that appear under your posts, then it's like just talking by yourself.

Andrew, what is it like running, screaming, put your stuff, I'm running out again.

So, you know, just approach LinkedIn like you would an in person networking event. Like have an opinion, share things, respond to comments on your posts, go to other posts and comment on those and just have a conversation online like you would in a physical room.

Yeah, no, I like it. All right, well, I know we're coming up here on time, so yeah, there's something that you could, you know, maybe the last piece of advice that you could give as like the first, I guess, kind of like the overarching theme related to, you know, selling new tech into, you know, the market. What would you leave people with?

I guess if I could sum it up somehow, I would say have an omnipresent helpful opinion.

Have an omnipresent helpful opinion. I like that. That's a good one. Be everywhere, be helpful, have point of view. I like it. Fits. Fits. Cool. All right, Jeff, well, this was fun. Good to see you again and I'm sure we'll have you back for another one at some point as well.

Yeah.

Sa.