Mean Girls Mean Business

When I made that decision to either say no or to cut something off, something magnificent has always happened right after. I either clear myself for something way better that I couldn't have accepted before, or I'm so mentally free from whatever, I just let go of that. I can do even better.

And it shows in episode 16. Web and brand designer Christina hall of Superlunar Design Company lends her insight on saying no, trusting your gut, setting boundaries, and how to work with creatives.

The Jabberwocky. It's the voice that turns determination to doubt. It creeps in to confuse and convolute, to jumble and judge and dash our deepest desires to dust.

Sorry, not today. I'm Eric Quigley, a creative director, brand strategist, father and type A entrepreneur on a mission to help creatives and business owners make the seemingly impossible possible. Brand therapy, imposter syndrome, corporate metaphysics, mental health, creative rehab. It's all on the table. Together we're gonna slay the Jabberwocky. Your session starts now.

Honestly, I feel like this is the mean girls in the cafeteria episode that's about to happen.

Like, I really feel like.

So we're here with Christina Hall. She is of super lunar design company and now of recent, at least to me, recent TikTok fame. She blew up like crazy, which she's totally deserving of. But we're gonna get into working with clients boundaries, being the mean girl when you need to. Christina, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself and we'll get into it?

Yeah. So you already did a great job. I'm Christina hall at Super Lunar Design Company and I help brands and business owners stand out with aligned branding and sales driven web design. Look at that. I remembered my sales pitch.

Barely, barely lost it. You know what?

I don't even for real, though, honestly, it's in what really draws me. We're going to get into this. But really, even what draws me in and because I'm, I mean, I don't want to say bitchy. I just want to say very real, very realistic, very tough love.

Direct and straightforward.

Yes, yes. So, I mean, I think that that sales pitches is. Is kind of lowering what your actual, like experience with Christina would be. But so good A for effort and on the effort, the deliverables. Right. Like what we're doing. Okay. But I do, I do want to know, I do want to know how you got into what you're doing. I think that's the one. People love stories like that. So how did you get into where you were?

So I Actually started really early. And there's a fun TikTok. I've actually hidden it. I'll probably bring it back. There's a fun TikTok. I got massive views. I think you've seen it. And I talk about how I tried to hack Neopets as a kid.

Yes, that was the one that really blew you up. And it was like.

Yeah, that was like, the starting. And. Yeah. So my dad was a software developer and engineer, and so we had, like, three computers in our house because he built them when we were really young. Yeah, he was super tech nerd. And so I've always been exposed to the computer, you know, technical, et cetera. And I really got into, obviously, like, MySpace Age. You were coding your little backgrounds and everything. And that wasn't what sparked my interest again, because, like, Neopets was similar, but I was like, why am I, like, just playing the game like, it goes. And there are all these notices in the game about don't give people your passwords. There are phishing scams or, you know, whatever. People can steal your passwords if you click a bad link. And I was. I really was like, oh, people are doing it this way. And like, yes, it's nefarious, but it's just nefarious in the game, not, like, actually nefarious in the real world. Which it is. So.

Which it is.

I basically, like, for lack of a better term, I built, like, a fishing page where people would click a link, it would give them a form. And I was so proud that I told my dad, because he would be proud. I was like, dad, look who I made. And he was like, take that down right now. Don't. I never, like, published it, so no one ever got affected, but I was like, look what I did. I'm gonna win this game. And so I'm gonna make so much, you know, fake Neopets money. And, yeah, I was crazy. And so I've always been into that sort of stuff, though. I've just always tried to figure out how I could make the Internet and, like, coding work. And I've always been very artistic. And so the digital preference and then being artistic just kind of goes hand in hand with graphic design. By the time I went to college, I was in graphic design with a focus in web design. And so I've been on this path whether I thought I was pretty much from the jump.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's great to be, like, fulfilling that. And I've sort of just always been doing the thing I'm interested in, which is Great.

Yeah. I mean, it's. I'm almost surprised you didn't become a hacker, but, you know.

I know.

Based on that. No, I love. I think that's such an interesting story. And your. I think you. I don't know, I'm gonna guess that your personality kind of already lends itself to this, but your delivery and your just working with clients in general is very strong, which is. I. I'm the same way. I think actually you might be a little stronger than I am. And I thought it was pretty bad, but no, I. I love it. I think we need more of it in the design community because we do tend to get. Just walked all over all the time. Oh, yeah. And so I just want to start to get into working with clients, all that good stuff. So what are. I'm going to kick this off. Good. What are some of your biggest client pet peeves?

So I've thought about this and I. They're really boring pet peeves, but they're so important. And so I would say the first one is communication. And it's part of why I show up. I'm actually way nicer to my clients than I appear on TikTok. I am.

Way more professional, way more nice. They have to, like, filter through. They have to be willing to deal with what I appear to be on TikTok to get the nice side of me. So.

Yeah. I mean. Yeah, yeah.

And so communication, not just on, like, timeliness of communication, but being, like, upfront. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of other people saying, you know, I worked with another designer and what they gave me, I really didn't like, but I was afraid to tell them. I was afraid to hurt their feelings. And I am like, why would you spend so much money, something and not give your opinion and just say, like, you know, I guess my business will suffer because I'm not proud of my brand. And we know what, like, confidence issues that causes when you're not confident, like, confident in your brand. And so I think they know that they can. I attract people who are either needing my personality or match my personality. And so they know that they can come to me. I'm not going to lie to them. I'm not going to bullshit them. It's like, you have to tell me. And I let them know I'm like, revisions are factored in. You have to tell me where this is going and how this is working, or else it's not gonna work. So that's my biggest thing, is people finding out you know, you won't communicate. They haven't communicated until the project's all done or not communicating on time.

It really is, I mean, and it's a stinger when you, when you get there and you're like, but you didn't, you know, if you're the, if you were the creative that they didn't communicate with and you're like, but, but I was under the assumption we were fine.

Yeah.

Like I. And I've had that happen before too. It can be very. I've had a client fire me because of like a similar situation where they're just not telling me. And I'm like, what?

I fired a client recently who claimed we got into a snafu. But she claimed that she had been, she was a long term client. She claimed she had been struggling to work effectively with me for six months and never told me. And she said I was hoping it would even out. And I was like, how? You're a business owner of a pretty large business. And I was like, how have you been operating this way?

There's no business owners.

Yeah, yeah.

Like this is a PSA right now. You have got to speak up. Like you can't just expect something to go away. Exactly. You can't.

Backbone has to be there.

I mean in anything in business. I don't care what business you're in. If you are running your own business. If you're not a shark and have a backbone about it, like, yeah, get out.

Exactly. And it's not to say like, I don't want people to think they have to be like me, where you're just very direct, straightforward, not holding back. But you need a line, like a boundary line that you will uphold. And if you don't, then I mean it's going to yourself, your business is going to suffer. I've seen it so often when you don't uphold that line.

Yeah. And this starts to suffer 100%. That's really interesting. I don't even think, you know, when I think of pet peeves, I think, I mean a big one really is communication. Honestly. But it's more from my perspective generally. It's like the. I don't knows. It's the not helping us.

I know when I see it.

Exactly. And I mean it's just become a running joke at this. Yeah. Those are just the things. So, you know, not having that sort of communication.

I.

So based on you communicating with clients, doing these sorts of things, like what are you doing to kind of avoid that? Like if this communication issue is your Number one thing. And kind of. What other boundaries do you have set up like beyond your. You almost have. I'm gonna go on a little bit here. You almost have like a built in firewall with your personality, which is amazing. It's this, it's like if you cont. Then you said it. If you can test this, like if you can deal with this and get through this, then we're good. Then we know that we're going to align. So I mean, I love that. But other things you do, you.

That's something I do though. It's my brand image and personality and, and so many people. I won't go into a huge branding tangent, but so many people are afraid to be straightforward or be themselves, whether it's straightforward or not, because they want to appeal to everyone. I say this all the time, like, stop being professional in that very aged corporate term of what professional means because it's, it's bland at this point. You're not standing out with that. No. But it's fake. Yeah. To jump back in. Yeah. And I obviously caveats. If you're working like old school financial investors, probably. Yeah. I don't know.

But yeah, there's a time and a place for everything for sure. Generally. Yeah.

Um, but to go back, get off my tangent, some boundaries I set are. And you know, I'll give people, you know that under promise over deliver of timelines, especially because people always want to know how long is this going to take. And I'm a fast and efficient worker, especially because I attract people who I feel like we get each other. It's even easier to design with someone who you feel like you just understand. And so.

I usually like four to six weeks, six to eight weeks, depending on the project load. And I will always caveat that with. I was like, you know, what makes a project go longer is our communication. And I joke and I like, kind of alleviate and I'm like, I have a VA who makes sure I communicate with you. If I forget to, she yells at me. But I'll tell a little story about a client who said he absolutely had to have a website done by March and never got me his deliverables until June.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, and this is not to shame you, but it's just to give you a clear perspective of how fast or how slow something can go. And it's 100% based on communication. And usually people are like, yeah, I understand that for sure. And for the most part, again, I kind of qualify clients by dealing with my personality so if they're slow, they're like, yeah, I've been slow. And project timeline extends a little because of that. Fine. And if, if they're fast and efficient, we're moving right along. So it's not a big deal. So that's a big boundary of mine. But then respect is a big one. And that same client I spoke to you about, since it was an ongoing contract, I mean, for three years we were working together. Yeah. And from the. So very. At the beginning, I. She was my first like contract client as a freelance designer before I was like, I'm starting a business, I'm just going to freelance on the side. And she came in very strong right out the gate, promised me a thousand dollar a month retainer, which when you're first starting out, you're like, oh my God, that's so much money. Now you're like rich. Yeah. And so, and so I was like, that's like, wow. I mean. And so I kind of succumbed to her personality where it was like, I'm doing this for you, you work for me, do whatever I say.

Yeah.

And I realized I was in therapy shortly after that and I realized I was like, you know, I need to, like, I am a very strong force on the inside, but I don't show it on the outside at the time. And I was like, you know, I need to start saying, you cannot communicate with me after 6pm or 5pm or whatever. You know, timeline. You need to understand how long it actually takes to do something good. And if you don't want it to look good, then it's going to be rushed. Then you need to understand that. And we had weekly meetings that I was almost always attending. And when I missed one once, really good example of boundary setting. I missed one once and it was like the second one I had missed in a year. I had to take my dog to the vet or something.

Yeah.

And she texted me and was like, you know, with everything. And this was like a team meeting. I wasn't even necessarily needed. And it was like the text said, you know, moving forward, we really need your attendance. If you can give me a new date and time that works for you, that you can guarantee your attendance, then let's do that. And I responded and I was like, I have attended 98% of all of the meetings and give you an hour of my time every single time. And I have, you know, my lack of attendance, like the two times I have not attended have been out of my control. And you know, this is the best time that works for me. And, you know, I don't think it's fair to say that my attendance, you know, has suffered because that was implied for two misses in like a year. And I said.

You know, if we need to reevaluate expectations because I am a human being and not I can't promise my time for an hour every single week for years, then perhaps we need to evaluate expectations and then, like, adjustments how we work together. And she backed off really hard off of that. She apologized and was like, you know. But she. We would go through power struggles often throughout the years where she wanted to be on top. I was like, just whatever. I'm. I. I started getting around 2,500amonth from her. So, like, during the time where I wasn't really growing my business, that was really good supplemental income.

Oh, sure.

And I would kind of back off just because I'm like, you know what? Do whatever makes her happy, but I won't do that now.

Yeah, we get trapped into that. And I think you make a couple of good points when it comes to boundary setting in general. A lot of us, when it comes to retainers, I've been in the same situation where the client will treat you as an employee. And in reality, the relationship is, you're a contractor.

Yeah.

You own your own business. We're a partnership. Right now, like, I'm. I'm offering you a service. Yeah. This. This is the same. Same kind of situation as somebody paving your driveway. Right. Like, yeah, they're not an employee of you now because they paved your driveway.

Yeah.

So I think we get caught up in a lot of that, and having those boundaries are a huge thing in those situations. So I'm interested to how. Because this is going to lead in. This kind of leads into the question that I had. So there was a point that you weren't obviously imposing these on clients or sticking up for yourself or whatever. Was that this kind of sticking point for putting those into place in the therapy and things like that, or did something like, major, I have to do.

This client was the catalyst for, like, because I got to a point where I was miserable and really felt like I had a second job with a horrible boss, and that's not how freelancing for yourself should work. And so I was kind of like, you know, I got to a point where I was like, I have to say this and just accept any repercussions that come through. Ended up in my favor. But this last time where I really let her go, I was not willing to negotiate anything. I didn't want to work with her anymore. And that was. I. That was 36 days ago. And I just got my final invoice from her.

Wow. I mean, you're lucky you got the final.

I know. Well, I threatened collections, so just, just.

Put that in there.

And I got it the day after I sent that email. So it works.

It works good for you. I mean, it just. I hate that that's what happens, because we are, as creatives, we are put in this position where we're less than. We're, you know, we're the people that are just kind of the help in, you know, the creative industries.

Yeah.

So I, I'm interested to know if you could go back and, you know, start off at your thousand dollars a month, which I would be insanely proud of too. I would be like, oh, my God. You know, what would you. What were the, you know, kind of number one things that you would start out with, even, like, really specifics? Because I think when it comes down to boundaries, you've kind of encapsulated it very.

Succinctly where it is. It does all come down to respect. Right. It does all come down to, like, time and what I'm delivering and all of those things. And I'm another human. Yeah, but, but specifically, like, if you were to point things out for people, like, what would be the number one things that, like, tactically you would say, okay, I have to have this from a client for me not to want to rip my hair out.

A really good contract. A really, really good contract. And I know how even now I'm like, ugh, do I really need a lawyer to look at this? Like, we have ChatGPT, we have examples online, but really, really good contract, because I just found. I just, I think I bought one that was a graphic designer, you know, freelancer contract wave. And this was in 2019.

And it had a work for hire clause which absolutely screwed me after because she requested every source file I had worked on for the last three years.

Oh, my God.

And I had to deliver.

Yeah, yeah.

And so that was just a nightmare. Um, and so I now have a clause that does not include source files unless I agree or they pay extra in certain instances. And so I. It's really just because I think most business owners or most freelancers, even when they start out, you're not going to have those boundaries. It's almost like a trick of the trade that you learn over time because you are in that space. I try not to forget that space where you will do anything just to get experience. You will do anything just to get 16 bucks an hour or something. And you just really want to be making the money. Especially when most people aren't starting freelancing because they have a comfortable income. And so you're in that space where you feel pressured. And I think you have to almost learn what you are and are not willing to do for the price tag.

Yeah, I agree.

So I don't want to go back and say, oh, I would start having my boundaries in place right off the bat, because I know it just wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have been there in my business growth yet.

That's fair. I mean, that's fair.

So I think contract would have protected me much more.

Well, even linking. And I go back to this in some of my content, where I think contracts scare people. Contracts. Contracts are like, oh, my God, I've had, I've heard some, some creatives say, you know, if I don't feel like I could do this on a handshake, then maybe I shouldn't do it. Okay.

Scares me when I heard that.

Really? No, but, you know, I think contracts are a fantastic place to be able to merge. To merge, kind of the legality with, with your personal boundaries.

I always say to, to my clients, it's a contract to protect you. And I. Yes, yes, it's gonna protect you from me, although I won't do anything, but it's, it's, you know, and I, I, I usually lead off with that protect you and I. And that makes them feel better because I think it helps them realize in a split second, like, oh, she could screw me over. Not going to.

I'm in reality.

And it, it makes them more inclined to sign. I think, thankfully, most of the people I work with don't care. I've had someone sign a contract and then ask me for an amendment right after, and I'm like, why did you sign it then? So, like, glad you're really into signing the contract, but.

Yeah, exactly.

Let's, let's discuss first.

Yeah, I think, yeah, clients do overlook it. I was so. I always tell people, I'm like, maybe you should probably go, like, through some things or let them know or. Yeah, like, this is what's going on. But yeah. And I think that contracts also. Do you feel like they have. Well, two questions. How do you feel they apply to you? Being perceived as an expert? Do you think they help or hinder.

I think they help.

Yeah. I would say, I would say the same. I think they're, I think it's A huge confidence boost, I think, especially if you know what they're saying. Right. If you know what the contract says.

Yeah. And you just feel safe.

Yeah. Yeah. And damn it. What was the other question?

Sorry, I jumped.

No, that's okay. No, it's okay. You're good. No, it's okay. We'll get back around to it. Either way, contracts, I'm always 100% always in favor. And I think that's probably better. Even, you know, beyond boundaries is probably a better lead off just to be. I don't even care if it's got loopholes at that point. Right. Like, I think it takes everybody time to get through. Like, it's always the crap situation that leads to, like, the stuff that you actually need.

Yeah. But then, then I think you just fix it. Like, if it happens, it's suck it up. Like I did unearthed three years of files for off across three different computers and pass them all to her. And I was like, okay, I've never had this issue before. And I usually, even with source files, I'm like, you know, I don't care. Take the AI file, like, whatever. I know that's sometimes, like, taboo, but just take it. I don't care. If you want to screw it up, fine, I'll take you out of my portfolio. But I was just. After that, I'm like, okay, definitely just including a clause about this because then I don't have to send you three years worth of crap.

Yeah.

And, and I think it, you know, I feel like it's inevitable the more clients you deal with, something's going to come up, you're going to realize you're not protected, and then you just fix it. You feel good later.

Yeah. And that comes down to, I think, choosing battles to knowing when. Yeah, that's. Here's a fantastic question I was not even going to ask you, but have you found yourself, what, what point do you get to when you, you know, what's that line for you where you go, I, this is worth me fighting for. This isn't worth me fighting for, and I can just remove you from my portfolio. What's that line for you? And when do you make that indication?

I make it. So I've worked a lot on like, self awareness because I, I can usually tell if it's a good or bad situation on how I feel about certain things. And it's like when you ask someone to pick two things and they pick the one you didn't want and you're like, oh, you already knew from the jump. You just Wanted someone to like push you there.

Yeah.

I think now that I'm so in check with my self awareness about how something makes me feel. I know it just, if I, if I accepted something that I didn't feel good about, it would lead to resentment down the road which affects our creativity and our ability to do a good job. So if I'm not excited about something, I don't feel good. And again, this like comes from a very privileged place because now I have the ability to say this doesn't feel good, I'm not going to do it. Yeah, I know a lot of people don't have that, but it really is like a self awareness check. Like how do I feel good about it? I had a client issue a couple of weeks ago. She didn't want to be featured in my portfolio at all. And it was at the point where I was like, you're paying me a rush fee and it's really not worth bending my schedule if I can't say that I've worked on this project. It was one of those instances where the only reason I'm doing this is because it would look good in my portfolio and for no other reason. And I told her exactly that and she ended up saying, okay, how about this then? And, and it was just like I was willing to lose like an almost 10k project just off of that. And again, privilege. But it was, it would not have been worth the stress and the resentment I would have felt to carry on with that project. It ended up working out in the end, but it could have not. And I remember sitting, feeling really anxious about that, not knowing what to do and the fact that I felt anxious about it at all. I was like, I need to just let go of this project.

Yes.

Because it's not worth it. You know, someone else will come in and it ended up working out. But I mean I think being willing to let go of something that doesn't feel good is the biggest, the biggest thing.

Yeah, I've noticed that too with myself. It really, it's the time in kind of paying. It's the self awareness people don't have. It's, I mean that's across the board with creativity in general. We don't pay attention to our processes. We don't pay attention to what happened with the last client. It's the big stuff that like jars us. That we're like. It's usually when we lose money.

Yeah.

That we're like, oh God, I have to fix that because I lost this much money or whatever. You know, we're not worried we'll still drown ourselves in hours of work for pennies, but you know, we got to lose $10,000 to wake up. And I think.

Having that self awareness.

It comes with time, obviously, you know, and you have to just be able to pay attention to that kind of thing.

I've in similar scenarios now that you're saying it's, it's. It's about how you feel about it. Right. Because I've had several scenarios where I was physically violently opposed for some reason.

Yeah.

Like it was, it was like any other project coming up. And for some reason I was just so anxious.

Were you just like, I don't want to do it. Like something was start. You know, I don't.

And for me, I don't know if it translates to that. It's more just like, is this okay? What's something doesn't like it just. Just weird inner turmoil that I'm like, this feels bizarre. And the interesting thing is every time that's happened and I've said yes with the biggest time, the client turned out to be a criminal. And like there are reasons to listen to yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you know, part of that again is coming with time and really paying attention with the self awareness and having the, the boldness and the, the. The just wherewithal to say no.

Yeah.

How have you gotten to that point where you've gotten comfortable with saying no? Because I feel like you're able to do that.

Oh yeah. I say no with zero problems these days. And it really is like, I want to say it's a combination of experience. Like as much as that client, the one I brought up that I just fired recently was a nightmare. She taught me a lot about what I never want to deal with again. And so thanks, I guess. But I like truly never ever want to deal with that again. And like that experience coupled, it's almost like the fear of having an experience again coupled with my self awareness. I.

And I've got a point in my own life where with anything, if I just don't want to do something and it's not my ADHD not wanting to start, and it's not just me being tired or something. And it just really at my core feels not okay. I don't question it anymore. I'm just like, no. And when I've made that chance or when I made that decision to either say no or to cut something off, something magnificent has always happened right after. So I either clear myself for something way better that I couldn't have accepted before Or I'm so mentally free from whatever, I just let go of that. I can do even better and it shows.

Yeah.

So I don't know. I don't think that answered the question like how.

I think it's. Well, I mean it's a combination of obviously the self awareness has come from self reflection, it's come from therapy, it's come from whatever it is. And I don't know, obviously, like me personally, I'm very averse, I'm not averse to therapy. I've just so long compartmentalized and shoved every feeling down that I just, you know, just steer away from it.

This works for me.

Yeah, it's working. It's just fine. I'll deal with it when I'm like 60 or something.

There you go.

So. No, I love that. I think it's. We don't do enough. And the interesting thing is as creatives, we should be much more attuned to that. We already should.

It's such an emotional and almost physiological like experience. Like, and I will even say like yesterday I wanted to get stuff done to send out today because it's September 1st, so project dates are starting for September and I was so tired and I. And like, you know, purse like me, even a year ago would have been like, just do it. And I was like, no. And it was just sending out mood boards, like those aren't that big of a deal. But I was like, no, just go to bed at 7:30. Like, who cares? Yes, it was, it was 6:00pm and I was exhausted.

No, it happens though.

And I was like, go to bed at 7:30, wake up early, do it. You can still get it to the East Coasters at a reasonable time. Like, who cares? Cares. And I was like, I don't. And no one first of all is going to be upset if they get something September 1st in the middle of the work day. But you're not going to do as good of a job, you're not going to feel as good about it and you need to show up the best you can for your clients, like just stop. And so even just that self awareness of like I'm physiologically not able to do this or physically not able to do this, whichever one it is. And it's like, just take a break, take a nap, log off, wake up early tomorrow.

Yeah.

And it's hard to do. Yeah. But I've noticed like, I need, I've. It has come with age. But I've noticed like, it's like if you're tired, hungry and dehydrated Just stop. Go take care.

Yeah. Like, which is hard to keep your body running. Like, those are. It is.

I'm that girl where it's like, my boyfriend is like, did you drink water today? And I'm like, I had coffee.

Yeah. You're like, I don't feel good. Did you eat or drink water?

Well, no, no, no, I did not. No.

It happens. It really does happen, you know, and it's just a really. The more that I get into conversations like this and talking with other people, it is just so amazing to me that as. As such kind of emotional and connected people we are to our work and things like that that we don't. We totally negate, we negate ourselves, we negate our process in favor of. And I've come down to believing that it's just. It's really just about this, like, not really lack of self acceptance, but just be wearing our work out there. Right. Like wearing our work on our sleeve, basically.

And there's a part. And so like, I contest this opinion, but also have. This opinion is like when people like your work, you feel accepted.

Yes.

But also you have to detach yourself emotionally enough that when you get critique, you can objectively observe what they're actually asking for. Or even when people choose the one that you think isn't the greatest version of whatever it is you're making, you have to sit back and just accept it. And it's not really. Critique is not rejection. But at the same time, when people accept our work and they love it, you feel super accepted and validated. So it is like an emotional experience. And. Yeah. It's just such a weird concept.

It is. It's totally bizarre. I mean, but I'm finding that it's very universal. And it's just what I've started to do to kind of. Because, you know, nobody. I don't care who you are. You could say you love critique all you want. I think you're a liar. Because, you know, nobody loves to be like, oh yeah, we don't really like that and we don't really get your concept or whatever.

Yeah.

But I've started to kind of. A lot of my focus has been on like circumventing a lot of things. So like all of the question asking up front, all of the. You know what I mean? Like dissecting their brain before we ever get to that point so that I can just be more prepared to present something that's going to be more in line with where their brain's at already.

Yeah. And that's I have my process. Like, it's extremely collaborative. I'm not one of those people who it's like, cool, Give me your business name and what colors you want, and I'll come back to you in two months with something would never would die.

I, like, make sure every step of the way. And not only does the client feel more involved, but they're more likely to accept things that they probably wouldn't have accepted in the first place because of their involvement. I'm not saying I dupe them or anything, but a lot of the times people will critique or revise just because they felt like they haven't been involved.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And so I make sure that that's in there. And I do, like, critique only in the sense that I know it's getting me to the final project or the final product, the best product. But when I hear it, I'm like, are you serious? Like, this pass is definitely the best absolute thing you could ever have.

Yeah.

And then by the end, I'm like, oh, no. Yeah, we definitely did a good job there. After all.

That's the interesting thing. It's like, it's still your work. You know what I mean? Like, we forget that it's still ours. No. I love that you and I are so, like. I think with everything, you know, I also, with the beginning of my projects, and I told Mentee the other day this, I was like, I. Because I give a creative brief. I think everybody asks for, you know, brand intensive or whatever they're doing just to get where the client's at. But I always preface it by saying, this is for me to know where your brain's at. I'm not going to guarantee you're right.

Yeah.

But this is for me to get an idea, because that's the thing, they don't. We do a lot of, like, nodding yes because they're paying the bill. But on the flip side of that, if we're just nodding and saying yes to the colors that they presented to us, we're doing them a disservice.

Exactly.

Because it's not about them.

Yeah. And I have content that says that over and over again. Like, it is not about. I think you saw my whiteboard one where I was like, oh, yeah.

No, because you squirt off of me. You were like, by the way, this is it.

Yeah.

Okay.

And yes. And so it. I mean, especially people typically. I think, you know the way it works, especially if you get a lead off TikTok, see a video that intrigues them, and then they binge like 15 videos.

Oh, yeah.

And then they reach out to you. And so typically they've caught one of the times I've said, it's not all about you. It's about your customer or your target audience or whatever. And so I've qualified again. That's like what all my content is, is. It's qualifying people.

Yeah.

And they usually come to me and they'll try to hurry up and get that line in before I tell them, like, I know it's not all about me. And I'm like, good.

Yes, we've brainwashed you.

Yes, exactly. And I'm like, good. Cause I'm like, I'll check that off my list of things to tell you. And I joke about it, but it's great because it's again, just people who are aligned. Anyone who thinks it is all about them is never gonna reach out to me, which is good.

Yeah. I mean, it's great.

Don't come work for me.

Exactly. Yeah. And you have to be comfortable with that. That's a big thing for me, you know, is just getting really comfortable in yourself of being like, you know what? I don't need to work with everybody and not everybody needs to work with me. There are 8 billion people on the earth.

Yes. That's what I try to say. I'm like, don't worry about it.

Yeah. And I think we have that constant fear. That's the constant fear. And I think it's. I don't know how much you were into, you know, anything metaphysical or any, you know, any sort of super lunar. So you know what? Super lunar. So. But just that lack mindset of being in that like fear based kind of thing, I think does a lot. It's all about the energy you're putting out. So getting comfy with that is a huge thing.

100%.

So I want to touch on this back to your Persona because I think this is, this is a big thing that attracted me to you as just a fellow creative and being like, hey, we're like cut from the same cloth here.

Yeah.

But having.

Having such a strong personality, how are you dealing with, how do you deal with kind of the naysayers? How do you deal with the people that are like, oh, she's just an angry woman. Like, you know, like, what are those? Like, I'm sure you get a lot of it. I've seen you do some content on it. How do you deal with that personally? How do you deal with it professionally?

I. So I get a lot of hate on TikTok. Um, but I. So here's the thing. For every 10 hate comments, I get 50 follows and, like, 10 inquiries. So, yeah, when I see. When you see that, you're kind of like, I don't care. I was also a middle child of five, so I was built like this. I was made fun of at every turn growing up, so you kind of had to. It's fine, but you kind of had. Have to have a thick skin and realize it's not about you at all. It. What have, like. And the people, like, have you ever commented on something aside from someone clearly being an asshole and, like, someone just genuinely doing something and been like, wow, like, this sucked, or you suck, or you look awful or something like that? Like, it's a miserable person who does that.

Yeah.

And also, the more hate comments I get, the more it gets pushed out to everyone.

Listen, hate comments, negative commentary is the best social media currency you could ask for.

And that's what I had a business coach who told me, if you're not getting hate, you're not standing out enough. And I kind of was like, well, then let's go. And that kind of helped my content be really bitchy. And.

But yeah, I mean. And like, the hate commenters, they'll even get a ton of likes for someone, like, degrading one of my Canva redesigns, which are, like, just for fun. It's not a real brand. It's not even what I would ever put out.

Yes.

Me designing for two hours, Chill.

It's demonstrating ability.

It's. And like, I think you and I both know your first few ideas suck. So it's like, usually. And so it's like, you know, it's just an observation. It's like, even if this sucks, it's still better than what I showed you at the beginning. And that's the point. And so, you know, people will tear it down. People will be like, I liked the Cannibal logo. And it's like, cool. Who cares? If I was getting tons of hate comment and no one was reaching out to me and I wasn't growing followers, I would probably be like, am I the problem? And I think in that instance, you probably would be if the whole Internet's just bashing you. But when you see that juxtaposition of such larger. My website visits are high. My, you know, people ordering stuff on my website is really high. I'm getting hate comments here, but they don't see the other side. And so it. It doesn't matter. And so how I navigate it is. I Very much fight with people in my comments because I love confrontation. And. And people all also love to say, like, she's so defensive. And I'm like, if me defending my perspective or not accepting.

Because there's constructive critique, which I accept. And then there's like, hatefulness.

Yes.

Which I will come at you guns blazing with that. And I've gotten to the point where if I know I have a solid argument and someone's like, making an argument. Argument about something that I know the answer to, I will fight with them for education's sake and just because I. I love a good fight.

Yeah. Why not?

But if. If people are just, like, bashing me or whatever, I just delete the comment. I'll turn comment filtering on and only approve the ones that are worth a conversation.

Yeah.

And people have called me out before. Like, she's deleting hateful comments, and I'm like, block you. I. I block and delete people. Like, it's my second job and I don't care. It's. It's my page. It's mine. It's not yours. It's mine.

Listen. And even bigger than that, it's your sanity.

Yeah.

Your life.

Yeah.

Your prerogative. That's just what it is. You know, I. Yeah, I think we get really caught up. You know, I had a friend that got really caught up in, like, social commentary and all that stuff. And I'm like, you're putting your. You're putting yourself out there.

Your piece, number one.

Is how you have to police your peace from that. I showed my sister some of the things people were saying, and I was like, ha, ha ha, look. And she was like, I would cry if someone said that. And I was like, you know what?

I don't care. My first reaction. So I don't even. Because, you know, I'm. I'm still like, oh, I need to stay professional. But my thing is all. I always ask them a question. I'm like, can you. I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Oh, yeah, the best. The best is I said something recently and, like, I'm talking while I'm designing, which is, like, difficult. And I said instead of like, because I was doing the. A realtor design. And I said middle class, basically, but I didn't say it. And I said, bottom tier. As in, like, genuinely, here's bottom tier, here's middle tier, here's a top tier. And people are like, wow, you just called poor people bottom tier humans. And I was like, can you tell me where I said that.

Yeah.

And I'm like, tell me where I said that. Yeah, give me the quote. And they can't.

They can't pull it out. Exactly. Yeah. Well, this leads into. Because I think I have been following. You know, I've been following you for a while. And I was watching and watching and watching. I'm like, oh, my God, why are her views stuck here? I was like, damn it, what the hell is wrong with his algorithm? And then you did. You did the one most unlikely video that was like, you know, a scammer.

Not even about my work exactly, but.

I think you made a shift, a very unexpected shift. Because when this video came out, and it was a Canva redesign when it came out, and I was like, oh, my God, you finally popped off. And you were like, yeah, it was sitting in my drafts and I didn't have anything to post.

Yeah.

I think that's so interesting. And where did you. Was that really the catalyst for posting, doing the work, or was there something else that you were like, you know what? I'm not sharing my brain here other than just like, do this or don't do this. Like, where did you get comfortable with sharing the work?

I really don't like process videos. Not that I don't like watching them or don't like having them in my repertoire, but they are so time consuming to record, to plan. And, like, I was trying to do the thing where, like, you have your phone standing here and, like, while you're designing, I'm like, I designed for, like, hours and hours and days and days, and so I'm not gonna remember. My brain cannot remember to set up a camera every single time to charge my external camera if I don't use my phone. And then I have to bring it in and edit it down to the right size and all that. Edit hours of footage. And I'm like, this is too much. I don't know how people do this. And. And I did the Canva redesign because I was like, I'm constantly telling people that Canva is repurposed work, and there's thousands of people using the same thing.

Yeah.

So let me just show them. Even if just for a couple hours, I like, capped. I'm like, you're designing for two hours, no longer. Whatever comes out of it comes out of it.

Yep.

Even if I just show them how much better 2 hours of design can do. What? That it's unserious design?

Yeah.

I can show them how much better you can do with a professional.

Yep.

And.

I didn't, like, I Think I didn't want to edit it is why it sat in trash for so long.

Yeah.

Because it was, again, it was, I think, a loom recording of me redesigning the whole thing. And it was actually. The first one was a live I did on TikTok.

Okay.

And I downloaded it.

Oh, you just downloaded the live that you did?

I downloaded the live.

I'm getting two for.

Yeah, I downloaded the live. And yeah, I just needed to cut it down to the actual points of it, I think. I didn't want to edit it. And then eventually one day I was like, just do it. Just post it. It wasn't even very good quality. And.

It kind of popped off a little. It just did like, I think 20,000 views, which is big, but not.

It's substantial, that you're like, oh, when I'm coming from a few hundred to twenty, you're like, oh, cool. Yeah.

And it didn't convert. And so I was like, whatever. And so I sat on it for a while and someone was like. And, you know, my other videos were doing like 2000, if they were really good for a while. And so I was like, let me try this again. This one got 20,000 views. Like, let me just try it again. And that one popped off on Instagram. It got 350,000 views on Instagram and only like a hundred thousand on TikTok.

Yeah.

Again, not like small numbers, but the one on Instagram really popped off. So I was like, okay, there's something here. And I kept reworking the format. I found a way to, like, design off camera and then sort of just reenact the motions.

Yes.

To make editing easier and to make recording easier.

Yeah.

And now it's like a. It's still kind of a long process. I don't do them often.

But that's how I got into it. And it's been really fun. And it's the only process video I really do. And yeah, the whole point is because I bashed canva logos. So I'm like, let's stay on the path and let's show the process and show the outcome of what could really be. Because I do a lot of talking. Yeah, I like to talk.

Yeah, no, I'm the same way. I'm very, you know, I'm like, here's this idea, and it's quick and it's whatever. Because I, you know, there's. There is no guarantee of ROI on social media. Like, there just isn't. So my whole thing has been, how quickly can I do this? How much, How Little time. So that's why this is sitting in your drafts, because you're like, oh, my God, if I think that more hours on this. Right?

Yeah.

So I was just interested to know, because I think there are a lot of creatives that struggle with sharing the work. So it's interesting that yours just came out of number one. It was on brand for what your Persona is on.

Yeah.

So, but then, I mean, that's the other thing. Like, we can't be all over the place when we know what we're talking about. Like, figure out how it fits in. But, you know, it's interesting how it kind of came out of.

Just not necessarily like an emotional, like, oh, I have to share my work because my work isn't out there. It was more like, okay, I'm demonstrating what I've been talking about for a while.

Yeah, yeah. Which I did have that. Like, I should be showing my work. And it's such a big belief that our work should speak for itself, which.

Yeah.

Doesn't work. I've tried it. It doesn't work.

No. And it is the process. Right. You know what? The work. The work by itself attracts other creatives.

Yes, exactly.

The process is what attracts clients because they're going, this is. I don't have this in my brain. I don't understand this. I can't do this.

That was my biggest thing, is I, you know, no offense to anyone, but I don't want to serve other creatives. Just not. I really have a knack for explaining the creative and the marketing and the branding side to people who don't get it. And I. I don't want to teach people how to do that. I just want to help them. And it's just one of those, because I know a lot of designers move into that space because it's so easy to attract fellow designers. And no, hey, I just don't want to do it.

Yeah.

Like, yeah. So that was my biggest thing is, like, I don't want to create. Here's how you do this in Adobe. Here's how you.

Start a discovery call with a client. I just didn't want to. And so it really had to be. That's why when I'm talking, I'm talking to a business owner while I'm talking through them, which I did very purposefully to speak to the problem and the solution.

Yeah. Which I think says a lot for strategy in general. Again, we forget about ourselves. If you're online and doing social as a creative and you're trying to get clients from this, yeah, speak to the damn client. Like, it's like you have to.

Your client doesn't want to know how to do a trick in Adobe Illustrator.

They don't care.

They don't, they don't want to know, you know, seven color schemes for a trendy brand.

Exactly. They really don't, you know, and I think. So this segues into something else again, you're setting these up so nicely for me. I'm, I, because I, I have been dying to move into the space where we direct how to work with creatives to clients. I think that's missing. Like, yeah, we do a lot of talking to each other and we're going, this is how you work with a client. But there's a lot of big no nos and a big things that really make working with a creative difficult because of how a client is communicating and the expectations and things like that. So if you were speaking to a client on how to work with a creative.

What would you maybe number one piece of advice you would give to a client for hiring or working with a creative to get the best result?

I don't think it's going to come as a surprise to say I would choose a personality that you gel with. And it doesn't have to be, I always say this because it's same for brand personality. It doesn't have to be a matching personality. It should be the personality you need for this.

Complimentary.

Yeah, complimenting you because there are people again, who I work with who have same personality as me and we're like, we get this, we got it, we're rolling, it's fine. And then there are people who are a little more timid. This is like by typical people, a little more timid or just a little more confused. And they know I'm not going to treat them differently because I noticed that I'm not going to be like, okay, so I know you're looking for this, but maybe let's try this. I'm like, no. So like, if you want this, your customer wants this, this is what we need to do. And I break it down very systematically and just very direct. Like, you don't need to figure out, you don't need to rehash what I said to figure out what I really said. I'm going to really say it. And so I think personality. And I would, I hate to say, like, go on TikTok and watch them because I know not a lot of creatives are comfortable doing that, but it's kind of the rat race these days. You gotta show who you are. And I'm not saying by any means it's the only way, but I've noticed it being the most effective way in the last five years is to show yourself and who you are. And as a client, picking the people who you are, like, based on what I see here, I would love to work with them. And it makes everything easier because you probably have similar communication styles where you. Or they'll probably force you to have the right communication style if you're looking for a stronger presence.

Yes.

And that's really what I would say. Make sure it's a personality fit.

I love that I would never have expected, honestly. I'm so tactical.

Yeah.

Like, I'm so. Like, I'm such. Yeah.

I don't have, like, a tip and trick, I really think. And I've noticed it because I'm basically doing personality marketing for the most part. I get so many different business. I've not had a repeat business niche from my clients yet. And it's. But the personalities are all one or the other. And I. And I love it. And we've worked together so well because we both feel comfortable with each other.

It is a relationship.

Being comfortable by having that personality fit makes everything so much easier. So that even when you disagree, you're okay coming forward with that and expressing it.

Yeah. 100. Oh, my God. Love that.

Dropping bombs.

No, I think that's awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been very enlightening, actually. You know, I'm so not pleasantly surprised because I love the bitterness that we have, but at the same time, like, there is. There are always multiple facets to every person and there's a layer. Yeah. You are. You are totally lovely and gorgeous and thank you for doing this. Yes.

I have had so much fun. If you ever want me to come back, I am totally down.

Oh, my God. Yes. And I need to know. So now that. Now that you are pushing 60,000 followers on TikTok, and I have to say it again, because I'm absolutely thrilled for you, that where can people follow you? What's your website? All that good stuff.

So Definitely follow on TikTok and Instagram. That's where you'll see the most of me. And those are both superlunardesign. Superlunar with an AR. So everyone knows. And then my website is superlunardesign.com.

Perfect. Well, everyone, thank you so much. This has been Christina hall and. Yeah, we'll catch you again. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

The Jabberwocky Sessions is a podcast written and produced by Uncommon Crowd. Visit us online at www.jabbawockysessions.com or follow us on Instagram at Uncommon Crowd. Thanks for listening.