The Biology of Change: The MINDset Game® Podcast Interview with Susan Britton
In this Mindset Game Podcast episode, host Vered Kogan interviews Susan Britton MCC, founder of Academies for Coaching, to explore the "biology of change"—the interplay of brain chemistry, neural circuitry, emotions, and physiology that underlies why people resist or embrace change. Susan explains that change is constantly threatened at a subconscious level, creating a mismatch between what we think we should do and what we actually do. She introduces a two‑pronged framework: neural chemistry (dopamine, cortisol, oxytocin, etc.) and neural circuitry (learned belief patterns formed early in life). Awareness of these hidden drivers can be cultivated through visual cues, wearable data, novelty, and play. To shift state, she offers practical tools: the 3 C’s (Compassion, Curiosity, Creation), breathing techniques such as F.E.E.R. breath and the 4‑7‑8 method, movement, and rhythmic practices that move the nervous system from sympathetic (stress) to parasympathetic (peace). Susan also discusses emotional contagion—how a leader’s physiological calm can regulate a team’s stress response—and the importance of leveraging social support to amplify dopamine‑driven motivation. For rewiring maladaptive circuitry, she outlines a loop of association, novelty, and repetition, citing research on myelination and the need for compassionate self‑coaching when uncovering early‑life learned behaviors. Throughout, she ties neuroscience to concrete leadership practices: recognizing others’ circuitry/chemistry, using empathy, and applying coach‑approach principles to foster change. The conversation concludes with resources for listeners to explore her training programs.
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Welcome to the Mindset Game Podcast. I'm Vered Kogan, and I'm delighted to have Susan Britton with us today. Susan is the founder and president of the Academies for Coaching Incorporated, which has trained thousands of leadership and career coaches on 6 continents over the past 20 years. Her organization's mission is changing minds for good. The positive and with permanence. A self-professed neuroscience nerd, she is passionate about how brain-body biology can bring insight to the invisible forces that thwart change. To that end, she and her team have delivered thousands of hours of training on how a brain-friendly approach can create engagement, creativity, and productivity in leaders and their teams, which is what we're gonna be focusing on today. And on a personal note, I got to meet Susan and her wonderful team about 10 years ago when I attended a 14-week coach training, and then a couple years later, a brain-based coaching program. And Susan, it is truly an honor and a gift to have you here with us today. Thank you.
Thank you, Vera. It is my pleasure, and I feel that honor and gift back towards you as well for what you're doing and spreading spreading into the world in this regard. Thank you.
And from the programs that I've attended with you and kind of following you throughout the years, I know that that expertise in neuroscience and kind of the biology of change has been not only, of course, a great interest of yours, but has expanded. You've done many programs that you attended personally. I know there's one that you're attending right now. In Europe, and it's a very intensive program. And so, like I said, I'm just really delighted to have you here to share what leaders need to know about the biology of change, what happens in their brains and their bodies, you know, during different situations in their life for them to show up as their best selves. And so tell us a little bit, what do we mean by the biology of change?
Good question. First off, I think we can all agree that change is constant. That's no surprise, and everyone is familiar with that phrase. And it seems that oftentimes when we start to look at change, we start thinking about, well, we're going to do things differently, and that's a behavioral sort of thing. And we think if we do things differently, then we're going to be able to get new results. Yet even if you know that you should do things differently, you sometimes resist that or stumble over it or think to yourself, I should be doing this differently, but I'm not. Our thinking doesn't necessarily align with our behaviors. If you tell me, Susan, if you want to lose 10 pounds, then go to the gym. And that's a behavior. And I think, great, I should go to the gym. But then I think to myself, I don't have time to go to the gym. Or I may have those days where I don't feel like going to the gym. And so all of a sudden, these things that I know I want— I want this new behavior, lose these 10 pounds— my behavior isn't lining up. My thinking is sort of fuzzing things up, getting things confusing. And then my feelings around it are also these sort of not so invisible, but visible symptoms that that's why I'm not getting the different result that I want. And so if you said to me, well, just think of it like this, you'll go to the gym if you think about how happy you're going to be when you get there, I'll think, oh yeah, you're right, I should have thought of that. But then I still roll my eyes and think, I still don't wanna go. And so we have to understand how as leaders to get to the underside of change And the underside of change really has to do with our emotions around change. And typically, when you're talking about change, that spells to your body, your brain, your subconscious, your unconscious, this is new and different, and therefore it's threatening. And if it's a threatening sort of thing, even if it's something that we want— yes, I want to lose 10 pounds. Yes, we want as leaders to launch this new program or this new service. Yes, we want to do this merger or we want to have this new something in our roles. If you don't look at the underside, the invisible side of what's happening, not only in the leader, him, her, themselves, but also their team, then you're just going to end up somehow getting thwarted over and over and over again. Physiology plays a big part in driving emotions, in driving the way we feel, and driving the way we think, and driving the way we behave so that we can get the result that we want.
Thank you. And I'm curious for people listening that are thinking, okay, you know what, I have some things that I want to achieve and I'm noticing that I'm not quite as motivated as perhaps I used to be, or there's just things that are getting in the way that are making it hard to stick with this new program or behavior or whatever it be. What, what can you offer to them around the way that our brains work that can help them to access the ideas, the motivation to stick with whatever it is that they want to create?
An easy way to think about this is that there's sort of a— this is very simplified— a two-pronged approach. We have chemistry, neural chemistry, and we have circuitry. Neural circuitry. So chemistry is everything from— everyone's heard certainly of dopamine and cortisol and norepinephrine and oxytocin. That's the, the chemistry that's going on inside our bodies, and dependent upon that chemistry is going to drive to a great degree how the emotions that we're experiencing, and therefore the way we feel, and therefore the way we think. So there's that piece of it. The circuitry is really all of these neural networks that have been formed from the time we were little, itty-bitty, and influenced the way that we have beliefs about things. If you were raised in a family that really honored serving others and being seen but not heard and being polite and making sure you were never inconveniencing anybody, If you carry that into your adult life as a leader, sometimes it can be hard to delegate. Sometimes it can be hard to ask for help. Sometimes it can be hard to admit that you, you need some support. And so thinking about that combination of chemistry and circuitry is really the big piece that can help support a new way to approach change.
So I sense that there is the awareness piece, right? Awareness of our own chemistry and circuitry, some patterns, programs, and so on. And then there is the, okay, what do I do about it once I'm aware of it?
Right, right.
How do we do the awareness piece? And I think for a lot of people listening, even more of how do I change that which is no longer serving me?
Yes. So awareness is a huge piece of it. Certainly that's a good point. And then we'll get to how do I, what do I do with that once I've got that awareness? I think that to have awareness, you actually have to involve change to have more awareness. The very thing that we want to do, change, is going to require awareness, and that requires change. It's very much a circular loop. To think about how do I become more aware, and to me, because the brain is so visual, if you look at the parts of the brain that are dedicated to visual processing as opposed to, let's say, auditory auditory processing or other types of processing, the vast majority of the brain is wired around visual processing. So whatever sort of visual cues that you can put in front of yourself to increase that awareness is going to be helpful. And that can be anything from like stickies to— I'm playing— I notice I'm playing with my Oura ring right now on my finger. And that also can be a visual reminder of like what is happening physiologically in my body. What did my sleep chart look like last night? What is my readiness level? All of these things can be clues or cues to remind us to be aware of what's going on physiologically in our bodies. Oh my God, are we not in a period of time now when there is so much access to data to know what's happening inside our bodies? It's now popular to get those glucose monitoring things that you can stick into your arm. I had a friend that did that and Another friend said, well, she doesn't have problems with diabetes, does she? Why is she doing that? I'm like, it's the cool thing to do. Like, people want to know what's happening inside my body. So making it fun, that's the other thing that the brain needs to be able to do something new. It needs a level of novelty, certainly, to make it happy. And then it's kind of an interesting— is it like a Mobius strip? If you do something that makes you feel better, then you're going to think better and be more aware. So if it's fun and novel and you get to play with a new app or something to be able to have greater awareness, then your thinking automatically becomes broader, more open-minded. There's some fascinating research. Barbara Fredrickson has done beautiful research around what positive emotions do to our thinking strategies. Alice Eisen did fantastic research that talked about how hostage negotiators were able to have broader, more strategic solutions when they felt better, when they were happier. Doctors are able to diagnose better and more accurately when they're in a better mood, and even able to let go of prior diagnoses that they thought were right when they're in this better state of feeling. Thinking and feeling just play off of each other very much. You can access more awareness through feeling better and thinking better. Either way.
I love that you brought the sense of also play into it, novelty. Because oftentimes when people think of something that's new or different, it's like they're so focused on the things that may not go right, or maybe things that haven't gone right in the past, or they don't quite know what they're doing. And, and they forget that it can be fun. And, um, and I also appreciate that you talked about kind of the measures. So for example, the physiological measures, right? How are we doing sleep-wise, performance-wise? And so once we have some awareness of how we're feeling, how our body's feeling, um, you know, and we consider some ways to make the change more new, different, kind of in a more fun, playful, lighter way, if that's possible. What then?
Hmm. So what then? Could I go back just for one second?
Yes, of course.
And because you said something about the novelty of it, I'll go back to this premise. That change is usually a threat to the brain because it's different. I love Marisa Peer from the UK who says, you have got to make the unfamiliar familiar and the uncomfortable comfortable. Even if we want something like the new launch within the company or the 10 pounds, whatever it might be, even if we want something, there are still these unconscious factors that say this is going to be a little scary, this is going to be different, and if it's different, then there's going to be that resistance to it. Yes. Was it Fritz Perls said that fear is excitement without breath? Breathing, adding that novelty, and now I'll come back to your question of what then. From there, it's almost like a slingshot. One of our instructors, Edward MacDonald, has this phrase where he talks about how these neurochemicals slingshot us into action. And so once you've got the dopamine, the happiness that comes from some novel idea, now you are much more apt to take some action. So from here, I would absolutely say that bring your clan and, and your people around you in that process. We, as you know, are social creatures. We— if, if we don't have people around us that are supporting us and that can create and expand that collective intelligence and the emotional contagion, we're not going to be as successful on our own. So certainly there's individual responsibility, but I would say leverage the people around you to sort of keep that momentum going in some form or fashion. For leaders, certainly that's the place where they can be in front of their teams and I don't even want to say in front of, they can be with their teams. And because they have the dopamine now floating through the system that says this is exciting, this is not fearful, that can catch fire. And emotional contagion has been studied in a number of realms. There was some studies over in Barcelona where they did all sorts of oh gosh, what is it? The fMRIs or had electrodes within the brain and they were looking at how a leader could impact the physiology of the rest of their team. So if a leader is calm, the leader is much more able to calm a stressed-out team because the stressed-out team are looking at the leader and sometimes perceptively and sometimes imperceptively they can recognize that that leader's heart rate is calm and regulated. They can recognize that their palms aren't sweaty. They can see that their breathing is calm, and that can send signals that I am safe. We are going to be safe even if we're going to climb this Herculean mountain for this new project. I feel safe, and if I breathe into it now, it's no longer fear, it's excitement. So I think that's an important piece of the puzzle, is to bring people together. It's not about we, it's about— I'm sorry, it's not about me, it's about we. So often.
And what if we ourselves are in some form of fear or doubt, you know, like, and we obviously want to positively impact our team members, but we don't genuinely feel that excitement yet? What can we do?
Yeah, I think the beautiful piece there is that recognizing that we're human, recognizing that fear is a very natural biological response to something that is different. And I like to use the 3 C's there, which is compassion, curiosity, and then creation. So if we notice, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of having that meeting with the team, I'm afraid of what they're going to say. I'm afraid of what the client might say. I'm afraid of what my spouse will say, that I have to be late at work again tonight. All of those little fear signals, if we can recognize that cortisol and epinephrine is floating through the system and just say, wow, I notice that I'm feeling fear. I notice that I'm nervous. I notice that I'm tense. The minute that you can do that, you can see the biological underpinnings of it. To me, that can release the guilt, the shame, the uncertainty, all of those things that keep us in that biological stress state. The most important thing that you can do is get your system out of that sympathetic nervous system response, sympathetic for stress, get it into the parasympathetic nervous system, parasympathetic for peace. You can say that. That's how I remember S and P, stress and peace. If you can get your body into that parasympathetic system, you are going to have restored all of your blood flow to your brain, your prefrontal cortex. You're going to have a calmer heart rate. You're going to be much kinder to yourself in that process. From there, once the compassion has kicked in and now you have a different chemical cocktail in your body, then you can be more curious. Like, what are the things that are really going on here? What is really scaring me about this? What is the unknown? What am I afraid to admit? What am I afraid to look at? Some of those things. So that's where the curiosity comes in. And then from there, typically you'll be able to just even notice that as I think about what I might be nervous about, maybe it's a valid thing to be nervous about. Okay, now I can create. What do I wanna do to manage that risk? Who do I need to reach out to? In a way, you can self-coach yourself out of that if you're by yourself.
I appreciate that because I think that we absolutely can shift our own state when we follow those 3 Cs, as you said. Even just labeling, as you said, I'm feeling nervous, I'm feeling afraid, or whatever it is that I'm feeling in the moment. Do you have any other like little tips, ideas of what we can do to shift our state in the moments of stress to access the parasympathetic even quicker?
Excellent. One of the— my favorite performance coaches is a medical doctor, Alan Watkins, out of the UK, and he has an acronym called F.E.E.R. breath, which is breathing regularly and evenly from the heart. I think the F isn't part of the acronym from the heart, and it's true, because once you start doing your breathing, now you're going to reoxygenate the, the system, your whole body. So all of your organs are going to have the oxygen that they need to be able to calm down. So that seems like such a simple thing. And I so discourage people from saying to somebody else, just breathe. It's like if somebody tells me just breathe and I'm kind of stressed out, I want to just like, don't tell me that.
I know I should.
I can't.
It's like, oh, just relax.
Just relax. I'm like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Of course I should do that. That doesn't work necessarily. So it's really got to be If you're by yourself, you can remind yourself to breathe. I did my 4-7-8 breathing before I came to visit you here today. I've even noticed sometimes I'll take my blood pressure at home just to see where am I, and I can lower my systolic rate by 10 points by doing 4-7-8 breathing within minutes. It's just amazing how dramatically that's going to impact our body.
What is 4-7-8 breathing?
Dr. Andrew Weil made it popular, but it's certainly thousands of years old from Eastern practices. The idea is that you breathe in for 4 seconds, a nice deep breath, you hold for 7 seconds, and then on your 8 seconds, it's a strong out blow of breath. Dr. Andrew Weil, W-E-I-L, if you Googled him, you'd get lots of fun little videos on how to do the 4-7-8 breathing. And it's fascinating to be able to really bring you back into more of that state of coherence. Super cool.
Yeah. So given the work that you do with leaders, right, training leaders to be coaches, training them to be at their highest, most optimized state of performance and fulfillment, what do you believe that our listeners need to know about how to leverage the power of their brain?
Yeah, we do have a lot of leaders who come for training to use— to not become a coach necessarily, but to use coach approach principles in their leadership. And if they can remember those two things, the circuitry and the chemistry, then I love that because most leaders are quite intelligent, quite perceptive, quite logical. If they understand that there is a biological underpinning that's driving people's behaviors and driving people's belief systems. They can remember those two Cs, chemistry and circuitry. The other thing that I would add to that, one of my favorite thinkers is Seth Godin, and his quote that stays with me is that everyone is right. If you knew what they knew, if you wanted what they wanted, if you believed what they believed, you would do the same thing. And so the minute that you can wrap your arms around that, that's not saying that they're doing the most efficacious thing, but it means that they have a reason for why they're doing it. So if you can remember, if a team member is— you're just like rolling your eyes and thinking, what are they thinking? If you can remember the circuitry and the chemistry and the knew what they knew, wanted what they wanted, believed what they believed, That will calm your system down, the leader system down, into a space where they can approach and help regulate that other person, that stressed person. Again, a calm leader can help bring a stressed teammate back into coherence, back into regulation, so that that team member can also think strategically and also relate as deeply as is needed.
It really reminds us as leaders that change does start with us. And so if we want to experience some shift in our outer world, we need to notice the chemistry and the circuitry. So we've kind of been talking about how to shift the chemistry, which obviously has an effect on the circuitry in terms of what we're firing, wiring in the moment and our thoughts, which then of course impact the chemistry and our behavior and results. I'm curious about more the circuitry side of things, those programs. So going in directly through the door of circuitry, what, if anything, can we do to become aware of what those programs from early childhood, as you said, might be, and potentially how to shift those again that are maladaptive at this stage in our life?
Mm-hmm. I love it. And I appreciate you using the word maladaptive because at one point they were not maladaptive behaviors. They were behaviors that were adaptive as, as children, likely, that ensured that we would be safe and we would belong and we would be accepted within our family systems. And so that was adaptive at the time. As you then grow older and you recognize— let's say that you grew up with a dad who used a lot of physical, um, physicality to express anger. Like, maybe they hit things, who knows, something that— maybe they demeaned other people, maybe they constantly gave examples of shaming others as a way to get what they wanted. And so if you grew up with that sort of a role model, then you might adopt that in, in a subtle fashion or an overt fashion, because that's what you perceived as, this is how I can get what I need. I need to act this way to get what I need so that I feel safe. And then as we grow older and we recognize, oh, that was one example of how people can get what they need, and it's now maladaptive in my world, that is not going to serve me well, it's not going to create trust amongst my team. It's not going to put me in a physiological state where I can be as intelligent as I need to be. Thinking about that, where did I learn that behavior? I like asking when I'm coaching leaders or training coaches or coach approach leaders to ask, what is the earliest remembrance of where that behavior served you well? The earliest remembrance of where that behavior served you well. It's interesting how far back people might go, and sometimes you'll get things like, oh, well, that's how my dad always was, or that's how my mom always was, or that's how one of my very first mentors was, or my very first bosses was. Once they can recognize that, talk about it a little bit, and the last thing somebody should be doing is they're listening to somebody talking about that, is telling them that they should do it differently or judging them or trying to fix it for them. The last thing they should do is all of that. The most that they should do is just listen and acknowledge, wow, so you learned how to survive, you learned how to be safe, you learned how to get what you need in that environment.
Oh, it's such a loving approach and, and self-loving approach to go back and consider All right, this behavior that either I'm getting feedback from other people about, right, that I'm now conscious of, or something that I'm sensing, 'cause it's just a pattern that's not serving me well. You know, when is my first remembrance of that? When is the first event? And maybe what's another event? And what's another event? And beginning to notice what is the pattern? What was I feeling in those instances? What are some of the connecting dots? What are the beliefs that maybe I have formed? Once they become more conscious, of what those patterns might be, right? Like in your delegation example earlier, like, I struggle delegating, or it doesn't feel safe to delegate, or what can we do to actually rewire the brain?
So I think it's Wendy Suzuki at New York University talks about the brain, uh, to be able to remember to do things differently, it needs that novelty, which we spoke of already. It needs an association and it needs repetition as part of all of the puzzle working together. If there's an association of, oh, this used to serve me, there's the association piece. You can also have an association of, oh, and it's not serving me well and I want to try differently so that I get the desired results that I'm after. Then repetition is obvious. It's like, how do I repeat that? It's not a one and done. You don't do one sit-up and have six-pack abs. How do I repeat continually? Let's say using the delegating idea, how do I continue to delegate in ways that can help build that neural connection one at a time, one at a time? Once it becomes the norm, then neat things happen in the system. You actually get this myelinization all over the neural connections that make it faster and easier to get to, to access so that you become. An expert delegator. So, and, and again, back to the loop of if there's not that compassion associated with it, like, oh, I remember I got rewarded for not delegating in the past, that's going to release oxytocin within my system. Now I've got that slingshot ability to try new things, to risk behaviors that are not comfortable. Like, for me, sometimes delegating is not comfortable. And if I can recognize that used to serve me, I used to get rewarded, my mom used to really give me kudos for that. Mom's not here paying the bills right now. I need to be different.
I love it. And, and so it's kind of like the circuitry meets the chemistry in a way, because if we're going through the door of circuitry, becoming conscious of those potentially unconscious patterns, um, and, you know, doing something different, right? So we've got the association, we've got some novelty, um, and then of course the repetition. Then in order to stay resilient throughout the repetition, right? Even if we don't wanna do the novel thing, then the chemistry tips that you gave us come in, right? I can use the breathing, I can, you know, use mindfulness. I can do something to shift my state so that I could do that novel thing enough times until the novel unfamiliar becomes more familiar, more comfortable, more safe.
Absolutely. Yeah. So breathing, movement, um, you know, these are such common known things. Like, am I getting enough movement? Am I getting enough exercise? Am I playing enough? Those sorts of things really help re-regulate the, the body system. Um, you know, it's, it's things like— I've talked to people who who go dancing on Saturday night, and on Sunday they have a great day, and then on Monday there's still a little bit of that leftover because they had such a great physical experience. By the end of the week, it's terrible. And this is a true story, um, decided to go to Wednesday night dance class, ballroom dance. All of a sudden, their Thursdays start to look a little bit nicer. And you have to wonder, like, how much is that physiological regulation happening, changing the way that they can then deal with stress.
Yeah, and that's such a great example. And it's so empowering because there are things that we can do to build more of that coherence, more of that resilience in our body, these nice hormones, um, that has a carryover effect so that on days where we might be in some environment of stress or anything like that, that we can keep our battery, you know, full enough and not be depleted to the point of burnout or, you know, God forbid, some kind of a physical diagnosis.
Absolutely.
And so Susan, I'm so grateful for everything that you've shared with us today because you've kind of brought truth to why it's hard to change. And I think a lot of people oftentimes judge themselves, like, why can't I just go work out? Why can't I just be nicer to my spouse when I come home? Why can't I be more present with my kids? What's wrong with me? When in reality, there's nothing wrong with them. It's just something is off, right, with their circuitry or their chemistry, both of which they have full control over. And it's the little things. It's the little things to start just labeling how we feel throughout the day, right? Like your friend with the ballroom dancing, if they had tracked their emotions, right, 3, 4 times a day over 3 weeks, they probably would've noticed the correlation between the dancing and, and the carryover effect, right? And the dip if they don't do it, right? So, so once we get to know our bodies a little bit more, our natural rhythms and what works and what doesn't work, we can leverage that and do more of the things that you're recommending for us to do today.
So yeah. And can I just say that it's easier said than done. And I love that you've picked up the compassion, the self-compassion piece of that. And is it Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor who talks about her stroke and learning so much from that and the biology of emotions? I believe she talks about that an emotion can last approximately 90 seconds. And then after that 90 seconds, we choose whether or not to elongate it, repeat it. Talk about repetition for the brain to learn things. The brain learns how to get addicted to kind of contracted, stressful emotions. And we can learn how just the opposite to get attract— excuse me, get addicted to gratitude and all of those, you know, sort of oxytocin-based emotions in the process. And that is change, that is a learning process. So I think if we can just kind of go on a parallel track of, yes, there's the organizational team change that's gonna lead to a new result that we want. Every organization is usually on some path of change. And at the same time on that parallel track, be thinking about I as a leader, How can I learn to change my body chemistry and my neural circuitry so that I can support that change and not miss just me personally, but be able to be the container for other people who are also struggling with some of those same things? Once you can hold people's emotions, you don't have to absorb them. Then from there, be able to move everyone forward in a direction that is going to change minds for good. For the better, for the long term.
That's right. That's right. Well, once again, thank you for the important work that you do. On a personal note, thank you for the support that you've given me. Um, I, um, for those listening, I mentioned to Susan before we started recording that, uh, we had a coaching session years ago as part of the completion of this program, and there was an anchor phrase that she had kind of mirrored back to me that transformed my relationship with my daughters and how I showed up with them. And that stuck, that had permanence because it was so much emotion, right? So much of the chemistry, right? That it changed the circuitry and it became an anchor for how I wanted to be as a mom and to enjoy the time with them. Uh, less of the doing and more of the being kind of to bring us back to the start of our call. So thank you for that. And how can people learn more about your incredible programs and everything else that you have to offer?
Oh, thank you, Farid, for that acknowledgement. That just warms my heart as a mother and as a leader. Um, so people can find us at theacademies.com, so T-H-E-A-C-A-D-E-M-I-E-S.com, and we have a number of coach approach programs. Many of them are for leaders who want to bring some of that coach approach into their leadership style and for those who want to also pursue coaching as a profession. So we would welcome you to visit us and learn more about the neuroscience of coaching. It's our passion, and we firmly believe that it's sort of that extra advantage that, that you can bring to those conversations that involve change.
Absolutely. It's empowerment when you understand your body and you know what to do to shift that in the moment, but also preparation for certain more stressful moments, then you are empowered. You're not a victim to what's going on with your team and your organization and your life. You are empowered to make that change in an easier way. So thank you once again, Susan.
Thank you, Vered.
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