#0153 – The Leader’s Playlist with Susan Drumm

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Hi and welcome to Deep Leadership. I'm your host, John Rennie. Well, I hope all is well with you today. It is Saturday morning and this episode is brought to you by our new sponsor, Jeremy Clevenger Fitness, who we Featured on episode 145. Now, if you haven't listened to that episode, I encourage you to go back and take a listen. Now, you might have noticed that I didn't release a Wednesday episode over the past two weeks. That's because I was on my annual hunting trip to northern New Hampshire. But I'm back and I'll be putting out two episodes a week for the remainder of the year. I have another great show lined up for you, but before we get started, I just want to remind you to take a look at the leadership books on my website. I've written three leadership books and I recommend you start with I have the watch first. It's filled with 22 short stories that will help you become a better leader. It's a quick read and most people finish it in less than three hours. It's also available in Kindle and on Audible, so you can listen to it in your car or while working out. And a Spanish version is also in the works. So check out all my books, either on Amazon or on my website, johnsreney.com and also, I just wanted to mention that the Deep Leadership Podcast is now ranked in the top 2.5% most popular shows out of 3 million podcasts globally, according to Listenscore. And we're also closing in on the top 100 management podcasts in the U.S. so I want to thank each and every one of you for listening in every week and sharing these episodes with your friends. You have helped this show grow and into a top performing show. So thank you very much. Well, that is it. Today's episode is very interesting. We're gonna be talking about the concept of a leader's playlist. And my guest is Susan Drum. She's gonna introduce this concept to us and tell us how our playlist often acts as a ceiling to our leadership effectiveness. Now she shows us how music can interrupt this playlist and help us become a better leader. So how can music help us become a better leader? Well, listen in and find out. So are you ready to dive in? Let's get started.

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Welcome to the Deep Leadership Podcast. Today I'm joined by Susan Drumm. Susan is a CEO, advisor and leadership coach with over 20 years of experience leading teams and senior executives to achieve their potential. She is the founder of Meritage Leadership, a leadership consulting firm. She's the author of a new upcoming book called the Leaders Playlist, which is unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. And I'm excited to talk to her about the idea of a leadership playlist. This is going to be very interesting. So, Susan, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Great to be here with you.

Well, it's so nice to meet you and I am excited to talk about this because it's so interesting and we've not talked about this at all in 150 episodes or so. So this is going to be very interesting. So first of all, you have a very interesting background. You have degrees in music and dramatic art, industrial and law. So tell us about your unique career path and how that led you into the world of leadership development.

Yes, I have. I do have a pretty eclectic background. I went to undergrad at Carnegie Mellon and studied industrial management, which was basically the business degree, and went from there to Harvard Law School. And what's interesting about law is it really hones your ability to make distinctions. In fact, the lsat, the test that to get into law school, is really testing your aptitude to look at which of these things is not like the other. And the use case, though, for that skill is making distinctions in case law. But I would say in the work that I do now, it's really using that ability to make distinctions in mindset and hearing the particular viewpoints people may have and the limiting beliefs or assumptions. So I think it honed that ability to see, make, you know, make distinctions. I went from there to bcg, the Boston Consulting Group, to do strategy consulting. I decided not to practice law. I kind of figured out this was not my path. I would not be happy working at a large law firm because I had quite a lot of loan debt coming out and that was my option to pay it off. And I went into strategy consulting and I found, you know, that was super helpful in everything I do because it's all based on, you know, your, your, your culture needs to, to support the strategy and vice versa. And really having that strategic management background helps a lot in the programs that we design. And from there I went to work for NBC under GE Six Sigma program. So I got a master black belt. I was a black belt and then a master black belt in Six Sigma. And in doing that work, I saw how you could try to measure the unmeasurable. Right. And I really think in leadership, that's what we do. Where people can't normally measure things, we've got all sorts of assessments to help them do so so that they can have a better framework or understanding of where they stand in their leadership and where they have room to grow. And after all of that, that's when I went to drama school and I got a master's in acting at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. It was sort of a weird career. Hia. Um, people thought I was crazy that I was doing this. I was, I think I thought I was crazy, but there was something drawing me to that. And I would say in doing leadership development, that's been one of the most powerful tools that we use, because as an actor, you learn to really connect and be authentic with your fellow actor and. But not only that, you have to learn to deal with the inner critic because if you don't, you're going to be distracted by the person in the front row sneezing or, you know, whatever may happen there.

Right.

And so you learn how to. This also this ability to shift state. And I talk a lot about that in my book and I think I leverage it, let that in the work that I do. So it was really out of coming out of acting. And I kept thinking, God, there's got to be a way I could bring this to business. And that's when I discovered leadership development 20 years ago and this was back when leadership development consulting people didn't know what that was, but I found a boutique leadership development firm. I got trained in doing that work and went out on my own and have been doing it ever since and built a firm around it. So yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely a journey.

But you know, on everyone we talk to on this podcast, everyone takes, you know, strange roads, stains, you know, detours and what have you. But they, you know, they come to the same point where they say, look, there is a need for leadership. There's a need for, to teach, train, develop the next generation of leaders. And it's interesting how, and I talk to a lot of military, former military leaders and, and their journey is very similar, but yours is probably the most unique in anyone we've talked to, especially the law degree, the Six Sigma black belt, and then also becoming, going to drama and music school. So that's, that's pretty wild.

So yeah, little did I know it would all come together in the way that it did. But I think I was trying to find my way and I, and I knew at each of those steps it wasn't quite right.

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's an author called Scott Adams who talks about talent stacks and each of us has very unique talent stacks and we bring that to the table of whatever we do. And what I've noticed is the people writing and talking about leadership have these unique talent stacks and yours just is, is, is quite different. But I think again, it's just, it makes up who you are. And you know, as we were talking before we started the book that we're going to talk about, no one else could write that book. You have a very unique talent stack which allows you to see things through that, that lens. And that's what is going to be kind of fun to talk about when we get to it. But what I was going to ask you is tell us about your company meritage leadership. Like what do you, what do you and your team do and what makes your company so unique?

Yes, so we focus on senior leadership development and that could be in the form of doing team engagements and team development work, team coaching, cohort based coaching where we're working with a series of SVPs or VPs across the board or the C suite and taking them through a leadership development program as well as one on one coaching. And we're really looking to build the capability and mindsets to be able to scale organizations and scale them more quickly. And in doing that Work. I think this, this ability to also be highly practical, as well as making deep shifts in perspective and mindset. We do a lot of work around cognitive diversity. Okay, so looking at what are. What is the unique perspective or viewpoint that you bring, and where is your focus of attention and your motivator? And based on that, you have certain gifts, but just like that, you also have certain blind spots. Who. How are you working on those blind spots? One, how are you building your team around you to help, you know, fill in the gap of that mindset? And really, in a lot of the teamwork that we do with cognitive diversity, you know, the best, we tend to hire people we like that are like us, and that will be great and you all get along, but it actually is not the most effective team. Not at all. The more cognitively diverse team you have, the better results you'll produce, but also the greater conflict you're likely to have. So using some of the models that we have, it's like, how do we productively work through the conflict? Because if I say it's green and you're saying it's yellow, you know, how do we. How do we actually see the truth in each of those perspectives and come to that middle ground? So that's, that's what I would say, you know, a longer answer to your question. But what, what we do and why we focus, I think, uniquely on this concept of cognitive diversity.

That makes a lot of sense. What, you know, as you, as you're. As we're coming out of COVID what are some of the things that your clients are working on now? What are their problems? What are their anxieties? What are the things they're trying to fix in their companies?

Yeah, I. I would say in general, the rate of change is exponential.

Yeah.

Things are hitting us, you know, obviously, between the pandemic and then the supply chain issues. Inflation.

Yes.

And mental health. And so I think when you're, as a leader right now, dealing with mental health, dealing with retaining and engaging your team, paramount. That's what I'm hearing all the time. How do I find the right team and attract them? How do I retain? How do I engage them? And. And knowing how do I deal with a hybrid model, if that's what we have or we went remote. I don't know if people are working or if they're even engaged. I don't know how they're feeling. How do we. We don't. I don't have that sense anymore that I used to have. So all of that, I think is front and center for a lot of leaders now.

Yeah. So like you said, the rate of, rate of change is exponential. Change is always, you know, provides stress for an organization. Right. Anytime you go through change, we've gone through an incredible amount of change in the past three years. So it's not, not surprising to hear that's the kind of things they're facing, the challenges they're the things they're trying to solve like attract and retain talent. In this era where people can simply leave their jobs and there's no stigma attached to it anymore like it used to be, you know, you want to keep a resume fairly solid, you know, long, but now it doesn't matter, you know, no one, it doesn't seem to matter that much anymore. So employees, if they're not happy where they're not feel they're feeling like they're not, you know, not really contributing or growing as a person, they're going to leave and go find the next job. So yeah, it's a big struggle. And so it sounds like a lot of the leaders you work with are going through some of the same challenges we've heard, you know, from other people we've talked to. So same, same levels of stress is how change creates challenge. And that's for sure.

Yes. Yes, for sure.

One thing on your website with your company and I really like this and I wanted you to kind of talk a little bit about, you said that, that leadership should be a blend of authentic relationship building skills. And I love the, and results or results oriented expertise and those should be in balanced appropriately to fit the type of leadership required within the organization. So we have relationships and we have results. So. And they're a balance. So explain what you mean by that.

Yeah, I think you need both the ability to build rapport and connect and form deep, warm connections as well as the ability to achieve results. Right. That's what you're there as a leader to do. To create outcomes that matter the most. And how, but how leadership is doing that through others, if you're just going to do it yourself, then you're an independent contributor. You've got to do that through others. That's how scale happens and how you create the conditions for others to thrive, how you create the conditions to build their capacity. Efficiency and doing that type of work is really what we're about. And when I say I'm using those terms balanced and blended because the name is from the meritage wine or meritage wine.

Yes, I saw that.

And you know, it's a blend, it's basically a blend of, of reds that needs to be blended just, just right to be an exquisite wine. And, and I, I really view leadership that way as well, because I believe, you know, you can. We all have strengths, but I've also seen leaders overuse those strengths to the point where they become liabilities. And so having the right balance between using your strength for good versus taking it too far and I mean, examples like, you could be a really decisive leader. That's an excellent quality taken too far, too much of a good thing. You become pushy and you don't listen to other input and you become narrow in your, in your focus. Now, in some leadership situations, it will call for that, and that's a good thing, but not in every situation. But if you keep doubling down on that, you know, you're, you're basically using the wrong tool in the toolbox to get done what you need. But you don't know any better because that's the tool that you're really good at.

It's become, it's been effective for years while you keep grabbing the same tool. Yeah, I really like what you're talking about. I do like the idea of balance and the word and, you know, it's relationship and results. And so some leaders I've seen are two relationships focused and, you know, they don't want to, you know, they're not. They're the nice guy that doesn't want to, you know, rock too much and everybody likes them. And the other side is the results only side in that you're. You're pushing, pushing, pushing to get results, but you don't haven't built up rapport relationships with your employees. So it's a balance between the two of those things. And the. And is the. Is the key word there. It's the. It's both of them. And it sounds like, yes, you know, I. So that, that's one of the challenges I've seen in terms of just my experience in 22 years in corporate. I've seen people on heavy on one side or the other, and the people that bal them are the ones that are typically more effective.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So you have a podcast called the Enlightened Executive. So I just question, you know, what do you do on your show? What type of guest do you have on? What's your, your main focus?

Yes, it's a podcast and YouTube channel. And the tagline is your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution.

Ah.

Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help people get the edge and personal and leadership effectiveness.

Okay.

Really? I wanted to use it as a platform for all of the everything from tech to programs to meditations to practitioners. I've seen a lot of different resources over the years and I wanted to give a platform to share some of those resources with other leaders as well as give a platform for leaders who have walked the talk, who have done the work to become more enlightened, meaning more self aware, more self developed and this ability to lead from that perspective, a more conscious leader and interview them to say, how have you grown over the years? What was most transformational in that growth? What do you know now that you didn't know back then? And the stories are just fascinating. So it's a combination of both practitioners coming with tools and resources, as well as CEOs and other leaders themselves talking about their journey.

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And I like the idea of enlighten means self aware. That's one of the areas we talk a lot about is at least my experience. The people, the leaders that maybe fall short of being great leaders are the ones that that typically lack the self awareness though they don't realize that they need development. I talk a lot about this is the people that typically consume leadership content that are watching podcasts or listening to podcasts, they're watching YouTube channels, TED talks, reading books. They are typically good leaders already trying to get better. It's the ones that are not very self aware that think that they know how to lead. They're the ones not consuming these leadership resources. And so you know, and I like what you're saying. So you we, we want to talk to the enlightened leader. We wanted you to become an enlightened executive. Right?

Yes. Yeah.

Self aware. So that you're not. So you're not burying your head in the sand thinking that you're good when you're not actually very good. So.

Yeah, exactly.

That's great. So let's talk about this new book because I think it's wild.

Yeah.

It's called the Leaders Playlist and it's unleashing the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. Tell us about the origin of this and why did you feel the need to write such a unique book?

Well, it was through my own experience of what worked for me where, you know, I asked people to come with. What's one area in life where you feel like you're bumping your head up against the ceiling and you see a recurring pattern but you're not sure how to shift to that? And, and everything I do, I really walk the talk. I have my own coaches, I go on retreats. And I was trying to make a breakthrough in my personal life, but I kept finding myself stuck in a certain emotional pattern which I call the old playlist. And it was the literal use of music that helped me shift and create a new neural pathway and make it happen more quickly. And I said, huh, there's something here to this. And so I started using this with clients, finding it was essentially like a brain hack to help them make the changes that they wanted to make, change wanted to do. And I'm talking deep seated changes like the, the, the core things where, you know, the, the core issues that seem to be constantly getting in your way that you always get the feedback on and you're like, oh yeah, I know, I know. I have this leg challenge. That's what I wanted to, to, to find something to help unlock. And it was music that is really interesting.

So, so, so what is. If we call the leaders playlist, like you said, it's sort of a, it's a pattern, right, that we, we get stuck on. So, so what is this leaders playlist? And what. Why is it like a ceiling sometimes to. That we bump into to prevent us from getting to our full potential?

Well, what I saw in the work that I've been doing, obviously over a couple decades is when leaders would react to a situation, it was never about the situation at hand. It actually had its roots in their childhood and it was coloring their perspective. So why would one leader flip out over not being invited to a meeting meeting and another leader, like, maybe disappointed, but you know, and it's about our triggers, right? And so I started to look at. Really, the book is about how our childhood wounds show up in our leadership. But I knew I couldn't write a book just about that because people like, oh, childhood wounds. I don't, I don't want to go there. And when I say childhood wounds, we all have them. This is not. Yes, there's some that are actual trauma, but we've all been faced with some adversity. And the wonderful thing is out of this that become our superpower Right? We. We have this great gift, but they also come with some liabilities. And I wanted to explore. How do you shift. How do you keep the superpower by get rid of the liability. And so we use music both literally and figuratively. So figuratively is you've got this background music playing that is based from your childhood that colors how you see the world, and it is linked to a childhood wound, something that happened that you're either trying to overcome or make sure it never happens again. It's sort of the monster you're running from, and you may not even see it. I didn't even see it. I did not see it until I wrote about my life. And I started to see this emotional pattern. And the emotional pattern was I started to notice, like, what was I really feeling on each of these, like, bigger events that occurred. And it was. I felt like I was treated unfairly. And the emotions I was feeling were frustrated, right, And. And betrayed. And I could look at. And I was like, why does this keep showing up in this pattern? And what I realized is it's almost like it's a song I'm broadcasting, right? It's a frequency because it's an emotional state, and emotions have frequencies that you can actually measure. And so if. If I have this emotional frequency playing out into the world, that's what's returning back to me is these experiences. And I thought, well, I've got to get a handle on this. I got to shift this. Like, this is. I do not want to create any more experiences where I'm treated unfairly, because there seems to be a common theme in my life here from my perspective, right? And look, there were plenty of examples in my life where I was not treated unfairly, where I was blessed. And. But. But I noticed, like, my big triggers were around again, this. This piece. So I think when we use music, we both have. You uncover what is that background playlist, and then how to use music to catch yourself before you go down the eight lane highway of hell, I call it, of that old neural pathway that's grooved really distinctly. And you can use music to catch yourself as well as what is the new emotional resonance you want to be in and what is the new playlist title and what is this? The anchor songs that best will put you in that emotional state and you leverage the heck out of those.

Interesting. So I would say this. I confess, I. I have imposter syndrome. I've had most of my life, yet I've achieved amazing things. And. And so, no, there's no need for me to have an imposter syndrome, right? I, you know, I, I belong here, right? I deserve to be here because I've done the work, right? So. But that's, that's my playlist, right? So it's like, what, what are you doing here? What. You know, like, I'll have a keynote speech. And I'm like, why? What do these people want to hear from me? No, they hired me to speak, right? They want me to be here. I belong here. Right? But yet my mind is like, well, you know, what am I going to say that these guys that are going to, are going to take away from that are going to be good? So that's, that's probably my playlist, right? So that, that, that, that sort of I bump into occasionally. And it's like, like you said, you're not even sure where or why you have it, but you have it, you know, and, and you, you, you bump into occasionally. You're like, where did that come from? You know?

Yes.

And it's interesting.

So you can use that music to shift your state on there. And the more you practice it, the more it becomes a deeper groove neural pathway that you can use. Because music has this ability to light up all regions of the brain. It's incredibly powerful. It's why Alzheimer's patients who are unresponsive, you put music on their favorite songs and they come alive. They can hold. They hold conversations. It's almost like, what is that about music? And it's the ability to link to your emotional state as well as using all regions of the brain. Why not harness that to make some deep seated changes? And that's really what the book is about.

So what does it practically look like if I were working with you to try to overcome something that might be my playlist, and I'm stuck with how, how, when does music fit in?

Yes, well. Well, since you. Not everyone is aware of their old playlist. So you already have a leg up of this. This is a background song playing. In the book. I detail nine of the most common ones that I've seen so people can get a sense of, oh, I might be one of these nine, or you might be something different. Right. And, and so I'd have you identify your anchor song for your old playlist. Like, what is the song that best represents that to you? I had a leader do this where her old playlist was. I'm left out. And she had her anchor song be Adele's hello. Because it was like, hello, can you hear me? You know, like and so when she found herself kind of going to that old neural pathway of like I'm left out of this core meeting that I should be in and, and they didn't include me in this, this publication or whatever it may be, she be like, oh, there's Adele again. Right, There's Adele. And so it, it's, it sort of would catch her now. Now that's the way to interrupt the pattern. Now we want to look at. Okay, what is the new. What is the new one? And I have a couple of different techniques in there of finding like what is the true resonant new playlist title. You like what it and what are the emotions you want to be feeling instead? And then let's find music that puts you into that state that has you feel those feelings. And then we create a plan to how we're going to leverage this. We're going to play it in the, you know, like we need to understand a little bit your life of like when I'm driving, I'm going to play it. Or before I go on stage, I've got my anchor song.

Yeah.

And my old new playlist. Anchor song. And I'm going to listen to that before the I, I go on, think about this. The athletes know this. Oh yeah, sure. Remember Phelps face like he was priming himself to shift his state to be ready to go. And so I'm not just saying we use music to lighten our mood or change our mood. I'm saying we can use music to heal some of these deep seated patterns that can get in our way.

Wow, that's, that's really interesting. So, so we're creating, we're doing two things. One is using music in a way to stop or to recognize when we're heading down the pathway. And the other thing is to refocus on here's what the new me is and here's the theme song or playlist to that new way that I want to be looking at the world versus the old way. Right.

Yes, yes. And so I've got this seven step process that I outlined in the book to kind of take you through that with, with, you know, suggest important prompts for you to think about. And I put together a master class that could also support people in doing this work because I just, I just find like why there's something out there that's accessible to everyone, which is music. And we have only scratched the surface on the power of what it could do because of its influence on priming the neural landscape to create new neural pathways.

I Think it's really, really interesting. I mean, I, I pro, I, you know, in all the things I've read in, you know, all the people I've talked to, I haven't heard about the idea of using music. I love it. Definitely understand how that could be really effective in, in, you know, making that shift. I think we need it. I mean, we need to. Because I, you know, I see people repeating the same patterns all the time. I mean, it's, and you know, I actually read a book somewhere, it might have been first break all the rules. It's that people over 35 don't change. Like they're, they're, they're, they have a pattern. And this is what you're talking about. They have a pattern. They don't change. And you're saying there is a way to change, but we've gotta, you've got to figure out what's your, what's your ceiling, what's creating, what are you bumping up against.

Yeah.

How do you.

Yeah, yeah. Really understand the pattern?

Yeah, I really think it's interesting. So when, if you know, as people read the book is when does it come out? It's later this year, right?

October. October 18th.

Okay, so pretty quick, pretty soon. And so as people read the book, what do you hope they come away with once they've read the book and they've, they understand the techniques behind it?

I think to take a deeper look in the mirror to, to understand that if there's something you're not liking that's happening on the external world, let's look to shift on what's going on internally, that you're broadcasting a message, whether you know it or not, around these pattern. And so of course life is going to continue to show up that way for you, but there is a, there is a way to, to shift it and it can happen sooner than you think. And that's why I say it's a hack where you can accelerate your ability to make the change using music.

Excellent. That's really cool. Really cool. Well, congratulations on this new book. I think it's going to be exciting and I'll get a copy of it when it comes out because I think, yes, I'll see if I can solve my imposter syndrome problem. I've got.

I would love to hear, Will you keep me posted? Let me know, because I want to hear what it, what it does for you, what songs you pick. And I think we're going to be creating a platform of a community for people to share that kind of information. Because you're not the only person out there that has that. Yeah, Right. And so sharing what music? Because different music resonates for different people.

People.

Right. So you might find country music, other people rap. You know, you've got to find what it does to you. And that's very personal.

Very, very interesting. Well, this has been fantastic. So, Susan, how can people find out more about you, your company, this new book, and your podcast?

Yes, you can go to susandrum.combook or the leaders playlistbook.com to learn about the book. And it's by the way, S U S A N D r u m m.com book will tell you more about the book. The podcast is also on my personal website and you can also get to the consulting arm of our work and meritage leadership from there.

That's fantastic. So we'll put links in the show notes for all those resources. Susan, I'm really. This is exciting. This is a really a new concept for me. I'm excited about what you're doing and the work that you're doing. And I wish you the luck with this new, with this new book. So thank you for coming on the show and sharing this really interesting perspective.

Yeah, thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be on here and giving me a platform to share the message.

Well, thanks again. Well, that's it for today. Thank you for listening to Deep Leadership. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and share so we can continue to build a world with better bosses. Until next time, this is John Rennie saying take care and lead. Well.

Thank you for listening to Deep Leadership.

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