116 Transform Your Life With Music: Interview with Susan Drumm

Welcome to the Mindset Game Podcast. I'm your host, Vered Kogan, high performance coach and speaker. Each week we share leading strategies and techniques to help you leverage the incredible power of your mind to adapt better to change and create your best life. Welcome to the Mindset Game Podcast. I'm Verit Kogan, your host, and I'm incredibly excited and grateful to introduce Susan Drum to you today. Susan is on a mission to inspire and guide leaders to heal what holds them back and to help them develop the capacity and mindset to lead in today's increasingly disruptive environment. She has personally coached billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures, prominent Fortune 100 executive teams, as well as incredible entrepreneurs that set out to disrupt the marketplace. Susan is the CEO and Chief Empowerment Officer at Meritage Leadership, her firm. And she's also the host of an incredible podcast and YouTube channel that I invite you to check out. It's called the Enlightened Executive, where she interviews founders and CEOs on the most cutting edge programs, assessments, apps, techniques, all kinds of good stuff in both personal and and leadership effectiveness. She is an incredibly gifted human being. She has graduate degrees from Harvard Law School, Carnegie Mellon University, and the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. Not surprisingly, she brings all of that diverse learning to the coaching process and also into her first book called the Leaders Playlist. And I'm just deeply excited to dive into this concept today. A personal note, I've known Susan for several years now and just absolutely love you, Susan. So welcome, welcome to this podcast today.

Oh, thank you so much. Vered and I feel the same. My life is so much richer having met you and spent time with you and working with you. And Vered is just the most extraordinary coach. She absolutely is. And so many ways you influenced me writing this book and different parts of it through my studying, my curiosity. So I'm excited to talk to you about this because you've been a part of my journey.

So let's get right into it. What is the Leaders playlist about?

Yes, well, we're looking at how to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life and what people say, music, that's different. And I really wanted to come out with something different. Let me just say there's so many leadership books and they sort of kind of just say the same thing. And it was really important to me. It's why, you know, I've been working with this for four years now to develop content and material that had not really been addressed before and bring something fresh A fresh new take. And it's needed more than ever given this mental health state of employees and leaders and our world and the amount of disruption and change that we've had to go through and are continuing to go through and the stresses on our lives and how we handle them. And so really what the leaders playlist is is both a unique look at the problem and a very unique solution. So somewhat unique look at the problem because I know others have kind of thought about it this way, but maybe articulated it differently, which often happens, right? So for me, I like to say that there's a hidden target to the book and the hidden target is how your childhood wounds show up in your leadership. But I couldn't really come out with a book to say these are about your childhood wounds because I know that wouldn't necessarily be a bestseller, but. But it is true. And so how do I address it? And pretty early on in the book I do address it, but I really focused on the solution, which was around the use of music to both figuratively and literally using music. So figuratively around you've got sort of this background pattern that's been going on in your life and it's how you view the world. It's sort of where your focus of attention goes and you can identify what that background music is, that playlist, and then actually use music to catch yourself when you're going down the eight lane highway to hell. Likewise, you can use music to craft a new playlist with a new set of music that anchors that emotional state or resonance that you want to be in and use it as a essentially a brain hack to be able to start to groove that new neural pathway in a much deeper way. Because your default is the eight lane highway, how do we shift it? And music speeds up that process. So in the book I give kind of a seven step process for how to go how to identify the old playlist, how to shift it to the new playlist, and how to use music to really build the patterning in, in a much faster way.

I'm so excited to hear more because we've had many episodes on this podcast about how our old wounds, if you will, those experiences often before we even have language, right. So very early on how they can impact our perceptions and of course our decisions as leaders and generally in life. And so I love that you really bring light on the fact that we must be with, identify, label the old playlist because we can't just jump to creating a new one until we fully accept what is. And that takes some Courage to do that. Some people are like, no, I don't want to look at that. But yet for us to truly transform, we must. And when it's done gently and in kind of the way that you are teaching us to do, it's a very safe way. And so I'm really excited to have people learn more about what you're going to be sharing. So tell us, like, how did you get into this work?

I did it myself first, and it worked for me. So I think through various retreats that you and I have talked about that I went on. I started to see some patterning showing up in my life, but I wasn't really as cognizant about it until I journaled and wrote about my life. And I was like, oh, my God, there it is again. Wait, there it is again. And I. I'm a very positive person. So I wouldn't normally see this. I think just like you said, I would kind of be like, oh, I don't want to look at that. Or that's not me. I. But. But the reality is, why did I have all these experiences where I would feel frustrated, left out, and treated unfairly? And what I started to see is, oh, my God, I've got this pattern going on, this playlist of I'm treated unfairly because I could see the threads through my life. And if I had that going on, I also have the power to shift it, but I didn't know how to shift it. And it was like, damn it. Like, I don't want to keep creating this after this last one. And my first step in the process is, you have to get a belly full. I got a belly full of getting treated unfairly by anyone's standards. You like? Yes, you were treated unfairly. So it's not like a judgment issue. It was like, no, I was. But how. What is it? What music am I broadcasting or emotional energetic signal that's having that return back to me. I've got to get a grip on shifting that.

And.

And when I was in the moments of despair, it was mostly over relationship betrayal. I couldn't break out of that feeling. And it's not to say like, those feelings are good and, and, and important to know, but when I was stuck in it like that, you know, that song that you, you can't get out of your head and you're just like, oh, stop. Like, don't play that song. How I felt. And I started saying, well, then I just got to put different music on, right? And I created a playlist called My Empowerment playlist. And it was all songs that had me feel like a badass. And, and that the world reflected back to me. Everything that I I, it would come to me versus, like, treating me unfairly. And so this phrase, of course, from Abraham Hicks, everything is working out for me was the. Was the energetic feeling I wanted to create with the music. And I would play this in the morning when I got up. I would play this every time I went hiking. I. Anytime. Also, I would feel myself going down the dark path of resentment that I had from this last event. I'm like, no, no. Nope. Let's put on 24 Karat Magic by Bruno Mars, because that thing will shift me like nobody. And I think it was through the healing journey that that accelerated for me that I was like, huh, there's something here. And I got really curious about the impact of music on the brain and started to study that. And, and I've always been interested in shifting state because I have an acting background, and that's what we learn as actors is how to shift state.

Right.

So this, all this piece comes together in. In this way, and it's so beautifully designed. Right.

It.

Now that I can see it, because everything is working out for me now. Long answer to your question, but, oh.

It'S perfect because I imagine people listening, have their own program or playlist, and some might not yet even be conscious of it, yet it's playing, and it's being projected out as events in their life. Right. The bellyful effect. And so the curiosity that it requires to be, what is that story that I'm telling myself over and over again? And. Because when we can identify and label that narrative and just be curious about it, rather than kind of like wanting to squash it, but just kind of being like, huh, there it is again. That's the beginning of the transformation. And so I think that what's beautiful about the work that you bring into the world, and specifically with this book, is, is the how. Because there are many books out there, programs that will get you to become conscious of the unconscious, but very few that actually guide you through a simple, practical process to actually begin to shift some of that energy. And so would you be willing to share with us a little bit about that process?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the first step is what I say. You have to have a belly full. Because until you're willing to look at this, it's harder work to some degree to, like, look at this aspect that's been playing out in your life. And often I say a good place to Start is just looking where you're feeling, like you're bumping your head up against a ceiling, like you just, you can't seem to break through. And, and, and then just start to get clear on like what are the emotions that you're feeling when you connect to that and, and then what are you saying to yourself about that problem. But ultimately what are you saying about yourself? That's the key, you know, and these I am statements and, and start to get clear of, well, where else has this shown up in my life? So that's another step is we first sort of start, start to get a sense of the patterning. And a lot of times it can be helpful to look at what's going on today. Where do you feel stuck? And let's see where else in your life you felt like that. Is this a brand new one? Chances are it's not. Like that's my reality. It could be, but what I found in working with clients is most likely it's actually showed up before. So then we kind of talk about where else did it show up, what parts of your life did it show up and what meaning did you give that and ultimately what meaning did you make it mean about you? And that's kind of the first thing. So we get that playlist title and then we start to look at, well, what music represents that to you? Like what's a song or a couple of songs. But sometimes I like to say you want an anchor song, what's an anchor song that represents that to you, that feeling. And the reason you want this is so that you can catch again, like I said, you can catch yourself. And so you kind of get clear on what that old playlist is and the more you can bifurcate that. And then I, I outline in the book a bunch of different ways to sort of come up with the new playlist title, but that's the shifting of what message would you have wanted to hear as a child to what's the opposite of the playlist or what do you really want to be feeling. And then you select music that brings that energetic state, that emotional state to bear. So in the book I outline nine different leaders, examples of Journey and their old playlist and their new playlist and how the music impacted them. And once you're kind of doing that, the last step, once you've built that out, then it's about, let's create a plan for how you're going to integrate the music into your life so that it becomes that practice, that habit forming of you being in that emotional state and we create that plan. And then once you start seeing the shift, I think the last step is just really important. What do you want to get more committed to out in the world? What's the meaningful mission that your life is really about? Because to me, that is like a whole new platform to stand on. And so you go from a belly full to a meaningful mission in the process.

And I think it's really helpful for you to have shared these kind of nine stories and playlists because I sense that most everybody reading the book could relate to one of those nine. Because I know also from being familiar with the work that you do in organizations is that you're highly trained in Enneagram.

Yes, yes.

How does that fit into this work?

Yes, I do mention it in the book and there is, there's some linkages, but it's not a one for one. So I, I really took it from. Here's the common theme that I'm hearing. The nine most common playlists. Some of them, if you know the Enneagram well, you could, you could see a linkage. Some of them aren't quite as direct. So the Enneagram is just an incredible tool to look at what motivates or drives us and where our focus of attention is. And I would say that in the, in the book I really. These are playlist titles are the most common, but I really want people to choose the phrasing that works for them. That's why I didn't want it to be necessarily more typology, except for saying these are common ones and you might find yourself in one of these. Right. But there are roots in the Internet. It's almost like that's the water I swim in. So it's hard for me not to like you'll see some of that infused, but it's definitely not by any means would I say it's the A1 for one matching. It just so happens I actually originally had 10, but we figured out that one of them, they were so similar. And I'll tell you, one of them is I'm not good enough is a wound. Right. That a lot of people have experienced. But there is a sort of a variation of it that I almost wanted to call out separately, which is I don't look good enough. Meaning I'm not pretty enough, I'm not handsome enough. Because I've really seen that even play out in leadership in terms of I need to polish, I need to wear the designer clothes, I need to. There's much so, so much wrapped in there that I originally, in the book, created a separate book. The publisher actually said, you know what, you need to put this underneath. I was like, okay. But I mentioned that because I do think it's something important to call out because I do think that that's a wound and not feeling like the pretty one in high school or the handsome one in high school, and how that impacts you now and how you feel like you might have to compensate for that. All of these things, I think, play into the core wound that may be driving you.

This is fascinating. And I'm curious, are you willing to share just a few more of the playlists? So not good enough is one of them what might be other commons ones that you see in your over 20 years of coaching experience?

Yeah, I'm not safe was a whole playlist realm. Another one around. I'm trapped. Another one focused on. I'm left out. Like, I'm not included. That was another big piece that I saw as sort of themes coming out. And there's mine. I'm treated unfairly.

Right.

So I talk about that and some other leaders who I've seen have a similar type of playlist. And. And this is a good example. So if you were to say my enneagram type is a type 7, which is the enthusiastic visionary, you could say that my wound should be I am trapped, because what type Sevens love is freedom, flexibility, and fun. But my wound, I'm very clear, is I'm treated unfairly. So that's why, I mean, my. It's not a one for one. Even though you could see some linkages.

And I.

And I really didn't want to set it up that way, but these are. These are some of the examples.

Thank you. You know, it's interesting because just this morning, one of my clients, we were working on, like, fear of flying in an airplane, you know, even a car wash. Up until our last session, he wouldn't get in a car wash. He's went about eight or nine times since then, and he's completely fine. The idea here is that the feeling of being trapped manifested as many different experiences and projections in his life. And he got a belly full of it, so he was ready to let it go.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I love that story. Yes, yes. And so you could see how for him, it might be under I am trapped. Or someone else could look at that behavior and say, is it about not being safe? That's why it's got to be, as you know, what's the language that's resonating for you about ultimately what you say about your life in the world. Right. And believe me, I didn't go around thinking that I was treated unfairly. Like, if I could tell you this was entirely blind to me. It was entirely blind to me. And yet I saw the pattern of these experiences. So something's going on there. Right. And. And that's why I want to use the power of music to be able to catch yourself, to bring it to consciousness more quickly before it. It's the runaway train.

So tell us a little bit more about music and maybe even a little bit around the science of that. How does music accelerate that neuroplasticity, that transformation?

Yeah. Well, the way I describe it is, like, from the studies I read, that music lights up all regions of the brain, so it's like a full brain workout, so to speak. And in that, it's a little bit like, have you ever heard of Alzheimer's patients who are unresponsive and they put their favorite music on, and it's as if they come alive? Well, what happens? Like, they're talking. They're totally cognizant for a little while after that. So there's something about the music that reinvigorates the brain. And couple interesting studies that I cite. So Joel Beckerman, who's a fantastic composer, wrote this book called the Sonic Boom, and I want to get it right. So how does sound transforms the way we think, feel, and buy? And he was looking at the power of that music has to influence human beings to a more desired state and how advertising does that. Right.

So.

And what he writes is, sound has a surprisingly powerful influence on us, on our decisions, on our opinions, our actions, in ways we may not even notice. And so what I was like, well, if advertisers kind of already know this because he gets hired to do this work, why can't we use this to our benefit? And there was another study that was done where they looked at the effect of playing different music on worker productivity. And what they found is, based on the music, they could control how productive workers were, which is a little scary.

That's incredible.

They looked at, you know, no music. They looked at, like, kind of fast, upbeat music. They looked at slower, and then they looked at something sort of kind of in tr. It's called entrainment.

Right.

And I think what's important to know is a lot of times we just put music on like we'll put a station on, but we're not really intentional by how the music might be impacting us and what I want to do with this is like, let's. That's okay. And we can just be open and see what experiences come. But I'd also like to be really intentional. Like, let's be really intentional about what the music is doing for us and select the music that's best going to serve us and what we really want to create. So I like to say that music primes the landscape to be able to make those neurons form more quickly, that it has this ability to wire together. And that's the research that I talk about and I'm always looking for hacks. It's essentially this brain hack that it will help anchor, and you know this from your NLP stuff, it will help anchor more quickly that change that you want to make. Because music so directly impacts our emotional state. And emotions are where it's at, right? Emotions are where we create from. And because music has this ability to touch us emotionally, that's why I thought, gosh, let's like, let's harness this amazing power in some other way.

It is so crazy fascinating because I know even just. And you know this as a fellow Heartmath Institute trainer, that when we measure our coherence, let's say using technology like M Wave or the Inner Balance Sensor, that when we turn on certain music, that for us has meaning of, let's say, empowerment, confidence or ease, whatever it is that we want to dial into, it actually increases our coherence level much, much more quickly than otherwise. And it's a hack to be able to get into that state where we are at our highest, performing at our healthiest, really at our best. And so I'm curious about as you think of leaders because your experience, your playground, as you call it, as senior leaders, and the tremendous impact that they can have on our world. What is your definition of true success in leadership?

The ability to create outcomes that matter and are making a positive difference in the world to the best of our ability to judge it as so right. Because we often don't know what impact something may have. But I think it's creating capacity and capability in others to support them on their growth journey. I almost think sometimes we have it wrong. Like we think work is about work, but really it's all there to help us heal through our growth journey. That's the purpose of work. Just want to let you know, like this is about your growth journey. Some of you have decided to get on board with it and some of you think it's about making more money and having a bigger company.

I just love that you said that. And I think that the more enlightened executives really get that they've done the work to get there where they're outside world, whether it's their team at work, their clients, their vendors, all of that that's happening is a mirror reflection of that inner playlist. Right. The deep, deep one. And so when we can do the work by going inward to label what that is, realize when we're on that eight lane highway to hell, as you call it, and be able to say, is this serving me right now or not? To recognize it and take the exit and to have the exit.

Right.

The new playlist. To be at choice requires us to be deliberate, which requires us to make that choice, to commit to a certain new playlist. And so there's such a freedom in that. Susan, I'm just like, just delighted that you're bringing this into the world. I think what you're really giving is mental emotional freedom and all the other leadership stuff is going to happen. But it really starts with just being free to create.

Free to create and know that you have a path. And it's not that hard. It's actually pretty simple. Like it's music, like it's all around us. Right. So I think there's an opportunity here for. And there's lots of other ways. Right. You know, I know this is only one way to shift state. I've just found that it's just there's a universal draw to music that almost. I've met very few people who don't like any types of music. Now some people are more passionate about music than others, but everybody can relate to like that theme song when they were a teenager and they still think of it and, and in fact, when it plays, they can, they can be put right back to the lake house was there with my family. Why does music have that power?

Right?

It's. So that's what I'm talking about. Like there's something here. I think there's stuff about music we don't even know. I mean, I'm bringing some of it. But here's the exciting part for me and I just learned this this weekend I was talking to a friend in New York who's a musical producer. She literally produces some of the big musicals. And she said, oh my God, I can't believe you're talking about this, because Peter Gabriel's relative, I think a daughter or something. They're coming out with a book called Reverberation, which is all about music and the brain. Just focus more generally on music. And the brain. And so I feel like this is. You're going to be hearing more of this. I think I'm taking a slice of it and saying, let's apply it to leadership. The only reason I wrote this book is they use this for myself. I'm like, oh my God, this works. What's going on? Let me do some research. So like everything I think things start bubbling up in various consciousness. So I wouldn't say like, I'm taking my slice. Someone else is going to take music and their slice. I wanted it. But I guess what I'm thinking is that you're gonna. I'm just hearing that this past weekend, I'm like, you're going to be hearing a lot more about the use of music in various ways.

And it's becoming more accessible, right? I mean, we all have our phones with us. I mean it's just becoming more accessible to create that playlist, to create that mixtape that we used here. Easy and quick to do. So how long does this process actually take? If someone listening has one of the playlists, the old playlist that you described, maybe around deservingness or being good enough or anything else, how long will it take them to shift that?

Well, I wish I knew, like exact timing, right? Because so much it depends on how much you're practicing getting in the new state. How grooved that old pathway was, I don't know is the answer how long it will take. How long did it take me? And I can just share various sum. Get some changes within a few weeks, Some take months. I think for me it took a couple months. There was so much wound. And it's not to say that it doesn't show up. It can still show up because let's face it, that that alien highway is already built, right? It is there if I choose to take it. So there's some times where I didn't realize it, but I must have gotten on a bus heading that direction. And when I can catch myself, I'm like, oh, get off. So it's to believe that you're never going to go down that path again. Maybe a little unreasonable because that path is there. I think the more like you just said, the more you practice this, the more the other one also becomes the eight lane highway. And the more you're like, I'm not willing, because I know where that goes. I'm not willing to do that and I'm gonna shift in the process. So how long it takes, I think depends on your use of the habit.

Yes. And I just love Also that you kind of brought up this concept of capacity building the capacity or resilience, because when it shows up, when we find ourselves on a bus or some variation of it or a parallel bus, we're able to notice it much more quickly. And we are at choice, we have that choice point to be able to get off the bus or get on another bus, for example. The concept here is that capacity and I think that's the hidden gift in your process. So, yes, we are actually shifting a pattern and we're building a resilience capacity to be able to notice other patterns and to be able to shift those maybe even unconsciously because there's more harmony in the system and just quick story. So around music, as I was kind of getting familiar, beginning to read your book, I remembered how there is a song or series of songs, but one in particular that I listen to regularly and it's the song from the movie Flashdance.

Oh, yes, one of those.

The songs from that movie. And. And it ends with like, I can really have it all. Like those are the words. And I believe that that's the new playlist. Again, I wasn't very conscious of that at the time that I really wanted to. To program in because I had this kind of dichotomy like either I can be a really good mom and wife or I can be a very successful businesswoman, really following my path. And in those days I couldn't quite see doing both effectively. And I listened to that song like every day. I played like sometimes on and it. Now I listen to it and I'm like, yeah, of course I can have it all. But in those days it wasn't like that. I would listen to it and be like, yeah, it would be nice. But I didn't quite believe it. So there is definitely a programming that happens. And I'm just so excited for people to get this book to enjoy the process because music is fun and it is easy. Right. In that sense. Right. So. And it's accessible. So how can people learn more about the beautiful work that you do and more about the book when it comes out?

Yes. So the book is launching October 18th and you can find more information about it at the leaders playlist book.com and more about my work is just at my personal website, which is susandrum.com and that's s U S A N D r u m m.com and I'd love to be connected with you. So if this resonates with you, please. Basically want to build a community of people who one believe in conscious leadership, enlightened leadership, and are also willing to do the journey for themselves. Because nothing can change, of course, unless we look at ourselves in the mirror. And including me, having done all the work that I've ever done, I continue to look at where am I getting.

In my own way. Thank you. Thank you for your journey to enlightenment and for sharing the love with the rest of us.

Thank you for the powerful work you do in the world, Barrett, and for all the incredible influence you've had for me and my journey. So you are a total gift to the world.

That's this week's episode of the Mindset Game podcast. Visit us@themindsetgame.com for more. And remember to play the Mindset Game consciously to master your mindset and transform your life.