562: How can leaders create a new playlist to be more successful - a chat with Susan Drumm

It's the point where you're like, huh, like maybe you didn't get a promotion that you really wanted or you got some bad feedback like this leader did, or you know, your business is really suffering in some way and you're, you're having trouble with it, or you have, you know, you have a major health illness diagnosis that came or you know, your spouse is filing for divorce. Any one of those are triggering events that may have you look at the what is the deeper pattern that I'm creating, my life and how do I shift it?

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Hey, hey, hey. Let's go. Business storytellers. How's everyone doing today? We want to talk about music in leadership. What's interesting to me, I am reading Susan Drum's book right now, the Leaders Playlist. Highly recommended. And if you are watching on Amazon, it is currently available for 99 cents. So if you can't afford that or if you don't want to even spend that to further your own leadership skills, I'm not going to be able to help you. Honestly, 99 cents. Good deal on Amazon. We are live on Amazon, so I would like to remind you in the carousel below, everything you see around me, you can chop the backdrop, how you hang it up, the microphone, my gaming chair, all those things, including Susan's book, are available in the carousel. If you're not watching on Amazon or watching on dbtv, for example, just search for Christophe Trapp, Amazon Storefront and you can find all these great products there as well. Now, Susan is on the show today and we want to find out what is it about music? What is it about the Leaders playlist? Very interesting topic to me because you know what? I listen to music when I go to the gym and I'm not listening to the relaxation station on Pandora, right? I'm listening to upbeat let's get going. But on the flip side, I don't listen to the relaxation station on Pandora when I need to take a chill pill. Why not? Why not? So let's get Susan on the show here and find out what prompted her to write the book, what should leaders take away from it and, and how do we create that playlist that helps us as leaders and teammates in general. Welcome, Susan.

Thank you so much. Great to be with you.

Nice to see you. Thanks for coming on. Fantastic book. I certainly learned a lot. But tell me, how did you even start thinking about the impact of a playlist and what does that really mean?

Yeah, so the book, I would say we all have a playlist operating in the background of our life and it colors the way we see the world and we may not even recognize it. It's sort of like, you know, that background music that fades in. But when I say that, I'm not just talking about using music figuratively, which we do in the book, but I'm also talking about using it literally and the impact that music has on the brain. So the book is really about bringing to awareness some of our most deep seated patterns and our effectiveness in life and in our leadership and understanding that those patterns develop in childhood as survival strategies. They can bring up superpowers in us and those are the things that allow us to excel, but they can also be liabilities and hold us back from being the most effective leader that we can be. And after doing leadership development for over 20 years with some extremely prominent CEOs and high profile political figures and all sorts of really interesting characters, it's the same thing I kept seeing over and over is what happened to us in childhood plays out in how we lead today. And I wanted to look at a way to shift that.

You know, what's interesting about the book too, when I started reading it, I was like, so as you just explained, you talk, you know, the figuratively, figurative sense and the literal sense. And you kind of start out with like, how do we grow up? Right. What's the. Like if I'm, if my playlist is, you know, I'm going to get this done, I'm going to win, right. Like, that's going to be my playlist. But then what I found. So, and I've heard about that before, not maybe in those, in those terms, but what I found really interesting is like, I think it's a study maybe you mentioned in the book on dynamic playlists, right. So if so what I just mentioned earlier, I go to the gym very, you know, on purpose, I put in the right music so I can, you know, pump those irons and do whatever. But I don't necessarily do that when I really need to chill out for a Minute. Right. Or I really need to take a deep breath or whatnot. So talk. Okay. Can you talk about that dynamic experiment, like how, how does that look, how does that work and how can people actually use that in their own day to day if they can?

Yeah, yeah. So we know to some degree that music can shift our state because we use it to work out. Right? We, we want pumped up music and let's go. But we usually don't use it beyond that. So it can shift our state. And it is about vibrational frequencies at certain levels. And we are vibration. Everything around you is vibration, including you and your body. So if we want to use it a little bit more intentionally, and that's what we're talking about, it's not just shifting state, but what I'm talking about is using music to actually shift deep seated patterns that get a grip on us and they're. I call it the eight lane highway to hell that we can get triggered by something and we're just off. We can actually use music to interrupt that pattern and use music to build a new one. Now the study you're talking about was really fascinating. It's by Joel Beckerman, who wrote the book Sonic Boom, How Music Influences the Way We Think, Feel and Buy. And in one of the studies, they put music on for workers in an office setting. And they tried four different types of music, one being just regular noise and seeing what happened with their productivity. And they were measuring all sorts of brain function and heart rate and all these things, respiratory. And then they put on music that was more relaxing and chill. And then they put on music that was a little bit more upbeat. But the dynamic one, the one that was most effective was something called entrainment, which would adjust the music based on what was happening physiologically. So if they were, if the heart rate dropped too low and. And breathing more shallow, which would suggest they're getting sleepy, they played more upbeat music. If there was sort of a sense that the heart was a little too fast, they'd play more calming music. And what they found is the productivity was amazing in those experiments. So part of it is like, gosh, music has this ability on our bodies and our cognitive abilities and, and the whole premise of the book is let's actually get much more intentional about using music to achieve the results we want in our life.

You know, and what's interesting to me about that too is achieving the results. So, you know, you talk about, you mentioned already here, childhood experiences. Right. And I certainly had plenty of those too. But there is a fine Line between blaming everything that's going on in your life on, oh, as a child, here's what happened. This, you know, my parents did this or didn't do one thing or another or whatever it might be. So at some point I have to move forward from that. Right. But understanding those situations is certainly helpful. Talk about how do I move forward, understanding that, and then how do I create my playlist to actually, you know, turn that into a successful career or successful event or whatever.

Yeah. So maybe the best would be to give an example. And it's, it's one I highlight in the book how we're using music to help leaders be more effective in their leadership, but also in their lives. So I worked with a client, we'll say Deborah, and she got some 360 feedback that was upsetting to her and wanted to figure out what she could do about it. And she first came to me and 360 feedback is basically, you know, feedback from her peers, from her boss and some direct reports. And what she realized she wanted to come to me first to be more persuasive. Right. How can I be just I. And, and the feedback said that she was always trying to insert herself in places where others felt like she didn't necessarily need to be and she was coming off as controlling. Like if she was left out of a certain piece of communication or left out of a certain meeting and there was a real resistance then to start to include her. On top of that, her, her point of view was, well, I'm the chief marketing officer. I need to know about these things because it's going to impact my ability to do my job. So that all sounds reasonable, but the more we dug into it and looked at what are the emotions that she was feeling about this coming up, about like when, when this happens, when she gets the email that she was, she finds out about something that she wasn't included on and she said, you know, frustrated, irritated and angry. And just the, the saying she had is like, I just feel like I'm, I'm being purposely left out. So then we looked at, well, where else in your life do you feel left out? And she actually felt left out. She had gone through a divorce and she felt left out when her kids would be going to the family home on the lake with the ex husband. And she didn't, wasn't part of that anymore. Right. Where else have you found that? And so we traced it back. We saw lots of different situations and really all the way back to when she was a child, her sister Got all the attention and accolades when anybody came to the door and they'd be fawn over her. But she was sort of the mousy, quiet one that no. One that seemed to ignore. So that's been playing in the background. Overall, what she got is her old playlist was I'm not welcome. And so what she was trying to do is fight against that. Right. I am going to make sure that I am part of things. Like I'm not going to be left out again. But yet that insistence of it came across in a way that was not ultimately had others resist her. So we had to shift that. And she, she. We had to find an anchor song that would help her make sure that she could catch herself when she was going down that again. Eight lane highway to hell. And hers was Adele's hello, which is, you know, that song is just like, hello, can you hear me? You know, like I'm. I'm begging for you to pick up the phone, you know, and when it would happen to her, which you'd find those old emotions, she would go, oh, there's Adele again. Right? Oh, there's Adele again. And then we had to build a new playlist for her. And her playlist really focused on her feeling welcomed. There was a song Come Sit Next to Me that she used, but we had a whole playlist. And the impact of using that and her homework was start to look at all the places where she was welcomed. And the more she used the music to get herself into the emotional resonance of feeling welcomed. And that's why music is highly personal. So you have to choose the music that has that ability to shift your state. And the more she could practice being in the state, the more circumstances showed up for her in her life where she felt welcome till ultimately she transformed how she worked. And even her biggest nemesis, who used to, like, resist her at all costs, they now go to coffee every other week and catch up on what they need to. And she doesn't feel the need. She feels enough included that she can do her job, but she doesn't feel the need to be like, part of every single meeting.

What's interesting to me is, I mean, how do you even understand what's causing something, right? Like, I mean, well, you just talked through there. I mean, that sounds like now telling the story. That sounds like straightforward. But I'm. I'm thinking, okay, like, what am I? First of all, you have to figure out what are you doing, right? And then what do you trace it back to? And then what do you actually need to change it to. And I'm. I kind of, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this. I like the example of the creative director or whatever the title was in the book who basically just always had ripped everything up right in the last minute and people had to change things. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. But let's stay with that example with the creative director. How do you even figure out why something is happening? Like how do you even get there? And the other thing is, I think there's a lot of people who do that exact same thing who don't even understand that that's what they're doing. Whether they don't want to or whether they're just not able to see it yet.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. In the book, I outline nine of the most common old playlists that I've seen over the years and their corresponding new ones. And I tell them in the story and then after I share these nine different stories of leaders, you'll probably find yourself in one of those and like, huh, that's interesting. Like I can see some of myself here. And then we give a process and we take people through in the book. But sometimes people have wanted more. So we created a masterclass that is up on my website where people can go and actually go through a course to find out how do I figure this out. I've got a couple of different exercises in there to help you understand what is that old playlist that's running me and how do I do it and then how do I shift it. But that a lot of that is I think when people see themselves, there's also a way to see and I don't know if you saw it. But also on the website there's a quiz that can start to get you clued into what it might be for you. It's a very simple quiz. So it's a seven question quiz and it's just designed to start to point you in the right direction. Certainly we're not going to uncover it in a seven question quiz. That would be amazing. But it does. I've gotten great feedback and it starts to, to help people uncover like what that is for them. But ultimately I would say the work to be done is to look at what are the emo. Like what is a recurring pattern that is happening to you that you notice? And sometimes we don't notice that. Right. So then I say, okay, if you don't notice a pattern, meaning that like, why is this always happening to me? Then we look at, well, what's something you're getting triggered by now? And we start to look at what are the emotions you're feeling about that get really clear and name them and take that back to say, okay, where else in your life are you feeling those things now let's kind of trace it back. Like where did you most feel that in your life? Where was. Like, where did it really come up now? Like, what's the earliest memory you can think of where that might occur, have occurred. And sometimes you don't have to trace it all the way back to childhood, but it can be really helpful for people to do so. That's why we do do it to understand it was just a belief pattern that they adopted at the time and it's been playing in the background ever since.

Yeah, so you kind of have to figure that out. Now the one thing I, as you were talking that I was thinking about and, and the only examples I can think about, unfortunately are in sales. Right. And there might be others in content and business storytelling, but especially, let's say we have a very successful salesperson, right? Very successful for a long time. And they're, you know, they're definitely playing, having their triggers or whatever and one of their way and, and might not be as collaborative as they could be, but they are very successful at the moment until at some point everything implodes because the market changes. And that's a whole different story. But how about those people that appear to be successful and that then also lead other people? I mean, you've seen those before, I'm sure, right? They, they exist. I think Michael Brenner calls them the era of the jerk has to be over in his book. But how do we, how do those people even realize that it's time to change their playlist or at least it's time to look at it and that it will help them ultimately in the long run?

Yeah, well, the first step in the process that I outline is you got to have to have a belly full of something because without that it's too, you know, the body and the brain likes things to stay consistent and be. We were stuck in patterns because that's the neural pathway that's been grooved and grooved and grooved until it's an eight lane highway. So until you get to a level that I call it the belly full, which is like you just, you can't, you don't want to go through this anymore. Sometimes it's a major life event, right. So sometimes people aren't ready. And if you're not ready, you're not ready, and that's okay. Or, hey, everything might be going amazing for you, then rock on. Like, that's not, you know, that's exactly what we want to see. It's the point where you're like, huh, like, maybe you didn't get a promotion that you really wanted, or you got some bad feedback like this leader did, or, you know, your business is really suffering in some way and you're, you're having trouble with it, or you have, you know, you have a major health illness diagnosis that came, or, you know, your spouse is filing for divorce. Any one of those are triggering events that may have you look at the. What is the deeper pattern that I'm creating my life and how do I shift it?

So the one thing that I heard you say a couple times now is the crossover between personal and business. And I mean, I, I don't even want to admit how many times I heard people say this, but, you know, I'm so different in my personal life from my professional life. But what I'm hearing you say is, I mean, people might not be that different after all. Or, or are they?

I think if, well, here's the thing. If you're so different, that takes an enormous amount of energy. Why. So I usually go when people say that, like, well, what's going on there? Why do you feel you need to be a different person between the two and. Which is the real you when you don't have to be two different sets of people. And certainly we have our. There's different faces that we show, right? We have our, the game work face, and then we have our nurturing, you know, mother or father face. And, and, and that is not saying that. It's saying if you're such a different person, then there's something going on. And the energy drain on you to do that will not be beneficial long term. At some point, your belly full will be hitting a wall of exhaustion. And so I usually say, really, we are who we are in everything we do. We're just putting a mask on. And the sense is that people can feel it. So usually whichever one, maybe not as the real resonant one is, there's a little bit of trust issues going on for, for people who interact with you that you may not be aware of. But believe me, I talk to them in the 360s and interviews that I do, and I hear it.

It's very, it's very interesting. I, you know, I do think people are, I mean, maybe they put a mask on or some people do that. But I think people are very similar and personal and business. Maybe just some behaviors are either toned down or exhibit themselves differently. Right. I mean, for example, I'm. I would say I'm very intense at the gym and I would. Or, or very competitively driven. Right. And I would say I'm the same way in business. But how those two behaviors exhibit themselves, it's very different in the gym than it is in my day job. Right?

Yes, yes. And there's also like that core motivator. Right. What's really driving you? So most likely you all might also be a little compet with your kids when playing, you know, pickleball or something. You know, how is that showing up and what is it? What's the underlying driver there which probably serves you in some capacity or you wouldn't do it. But you also have to look at where might it be getting in your way. And I'm thinking of those like, funny, some of the, some of the movies where the parent is like crushing the child and doesn't care in a game of tennis.

Well, I am definitely competitive. I don't know that I need my need to beat my eight year old.

Right, right.

One on one basketball, you know. So certainly you have the book and you also offer workshops and consulting. Like in the last couple minutes you tell us what, like how do people who should reach out to you, how do they work with you and what kind of offerings can they expect? I guess.

Yeah, yeah. So if you go to susandrum.com you'll see many of the resources that I talked about, the pre quiz that you can take that will help identify what is a potential old playlist that might be running you and what your superpower may also be. And we also offer the masterclass which will help you identify your old and new playlist. And it's got music in it and a lot of the research, it's really fascinating. And then certainly we offer coaching beyond that where our coaches can help you identify your specific old and new playlist and then really transform your life using music. I mean the thing about it is music is available to all of us. So it's. Why not leverage this amazing, amazing tool? And once you listen to what happens with music and the brain and how it impacts the brain, I think you'll be hooked.

What's interesting to me too is when you talk about coaches. I mean I, I certainly get a lot from the book, but sometimes, right. I mean you can't cover every scenario in the world in a book. Right. So If I'm. So I really identify with some of the scenarios, but if I wasn't and if I hadn't been in a situation like that. Right. I might not. So I think that might be how a coach can come in. Very helpful. Right. Because they can help you unpack your specific scenario. They can ask you those questions.

Exactly. Exactly. And help you really understand other areas where it's been showing up in your life. And look at. Huh. I realize I'm looking at it through these colored lenses or glasses and realizing that you can take those off. But at the time, it's the water you swim in.

It's the water you swim in. The other thing I found interesting is some of the examples you gave is it's based on how we grew up, and not just in childhood, but also in our professional life. And I'll give you an example. When I first led a team, I tried to lead those teams the way previous managers led their teams, or what I've seen or what I thought management was. And sometimes that doesn't necessarily work. So we have to draw from somewhere and then it might not work as we move forward.

Right. We. We have these mirror neurons that essentially in the brain that are going to mirror and pick up. That's why, you know, as a parent, you end up doing the same thing your mother did, even though you hated it yourself. You know, you're like. But that's what was modeled to you. So.

And you don't realize it as you move forward.

Yeah.

Susan, thank you so much for joining me. Susandrum.com check out the website for additional things and check out the book right here on Amazon. Or you can just search for Christophe Trapp, Amazon Storefront if you're watching anywhere else. Susan, thanks for joining me.

Thank you. Really excited to be here with you.

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