How to Actively Listen (feat. Erin Snyder)

Hi, I'm Susan Drumm and welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. So this is a really important episode because we all go through different life changing experiences and milestones from graduation to death of a loved one and so many. And the one constant says my guest today is our need and ability to adapt to change. So I'm excited to introduce Erin Snyder, a seminar leader for Landmark. Landmark is a personal and professional growth, training and development company that's had more than 2.4 million people use its programs, including the Landmark Forum, to create breakthroughs in their lives around performance, communication, relationships, their communities, and overall satisfaction in life. And I'm very excited to have Erin because I have also graduated from the Landmark Forum. So welcome to the program, Erin.

Thank you, Susan. It's just great to be here.

It was my experience with Landmark that created the start of my leadership development career 18 years ago.

Wow.

I'm excited to have you here to talk about how can this, as we look at Landmark Forum and the programs that you offer, what does that do for people? What is it? First of all, how does it help people? But really specifically is what we focus on here is how does it help you develop your leadership capabilities?

Yeah, I think it's really perfect to be talking about this, especially given the situation in the world right now. The world needs more leadership. Yes. And we can definitely talk about the nature of our company and what we offer and you know, ontology distinct from epistemology and the whole world of that which we might get into later. But I'll start with what you first asked about. You know, who are we? Yeah, good place to start. So landmarks and experience like no other, that it's, you know, you can't explain. People do the Landmark Forum and they're like, how do I explain it to people in my life? You really can't. It's an experience kind of like skydiving, experiential. And it's this interactive three day sessions. And each forum takes place over three days and an evening. And in these interactive three day sessions it's the participants usually around 150, although sometimes you go to India and there's four or five hundred. Right. And then a coach, expert, you know, Landmark Forum leader who leads an interactive dialogue. And what's really cool about the interactive sessions that people engage in, this isn't like your, you know, let's go sit in a lecture hall. No in these interactions and in these interactive sessions, you really start to discover why you are the way you are. You know, we've all had that, gosh, why do I do things that way? Or, you know, why do I sometimes get in my own way?

And why do I get triggered by.

This behavior?

It just gets under my skin. I can't control.

Right. This particular employee or my ex or my wife, you know, like, why, why does it go that way? You know? And that is really powerful for people because in the form, they start to discover the nature and the source of that, why am I the way I am? And they discover in that three days, they have the power to really choose new ways that are exciting ways of engaging with their life, with their world, rather than being kind of stuck to the way it's always been. You know, we have these trends in life.

Yes.

Where it doesn't matter what we've thrown at it, we still end up doing things the same way we've always done them. You know, that's why New Year's resolutions are hardly ever effective with people, because we have these great plans for how to be more effective in life. We're really going to stick to it, but then we're creatures of habit. We end up going back to the way it always is. So landmark, really, inside of that three day inquiry with people in the kind of. I'm going to say it this way, it's like the dialogue that happens. The forum leaders, we could call them the experts that lead these conversations, really do create an unforgettable experience for people who we are just simply said is an international company. We've got 47 offices around the world. We offer more than 50 programs in 20 different countries. I think we're now over 12 different languages.

Oh, my. Yeah.

Yep. And probably at the time you got the, you know, the info, we're at 2.4 million people. We're actually up past 3 million now.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Our programs. Yeah, just last year, 190,000. One of the things that is important to note about that, I mean, obviously during this pandemic, we typically have been leading programs in person.

Right.

But you could imagine with everything. With the pandemic, we've now moved everything online, so we're leading less programs in person. Although some locations were able to, Australia, New Zealand, et cetera. Yeah. Majority. Now everything's moving to an online venue and we're right in the middle of that. And we're about to be rolling out the forum online, which is really exciting.

Yeah. Related to that. So what makes Landmark unique in terms of the program or ideas or how you deliver?

Well, it's our methodology. So typically, if you go to a leadership development class or you read a book, you're getting tips, tricks, strategies, epistemologically, that's what they call it in academia, but basically said you're getting more information to learn, to apply to whatever your current set of circumstances is. My whole pursuit in developing my leadership for most leaders is, okay, I'm going to get more tips on how to speak more effectively. Okay. I'm going to get more strategies for how I interact with employees in a way that has them be more confident or, you know, X, Y and Z. Fill it in. Right?

Yeah.

Well, if you look at. I'm going to say it kind of bluntly, right? If you look at just what happened in North America last week and, you know, forget about that, it's not political, it's about the being of human beings. You look at our society, at our culture and pandemic notwithstanding, overall, people's lives are better. People are producing better results, they're making more money, there's less hunger in the world. Generally, things in our circumstances of life have actually really gone up. But if you look at people's quality of life, where's that gone?

Right.

People are so used to now, if you just think of hamster wheel, you know, you think of the midlife crisis that go on, people are so used by needing to do more, learn more, so they can get more ahead, that they miss what's actually in the background that's giving all of that. Right.

And that feeling of overwhelmed, okay, so, you know, how many books have you read? Have you really implemented any speeches? Have you seen, have you really, you know, it feels good in the moment. You might laugh. It was entertaining. Did you actually do anything differently?

Right.

And I think that that's really what you're getting to. How could this help in leadership? So obviously hugely beneficial from a personal standpoint. But as we're trying to continue to make that link between your personal effectiveness and how it impacts your leadership effectiveness, how does Landmark impact that?

Well, our programs aren't based in informative learning. And if you've done everything you can do in an area of, say, in your business, and you've tried to grow that business, and you've done everything, you know, you've applied things that you learned and you've, you know, even been effective at some level in expanding your business, but it's still not where you want it. Something else has got to be there. That's not what you've already learned. Because, geez, if you look at people, it's not like people are lazy, sitting at home on their couch just hoping that their business doesn't expand. They're doing everything they know to do well. That's where we come in. We don't deal with more tips, strategies, techniques for how to get further in your business or expanding it. It's not informative that way. Our programs are based completely in personal discovery. So people are able to actually distinguish what's been in the background, unseen by them. That when they're able to see it, all of a sudden they have quantum leaps in effectiveness and performance because they're no longer constrained by the blind spots that have been back there that they haven't seen are in the way of their effectiveness, that are in the way of their leadership, that are in the way of them being effective with people. So that's where our programs really do cause a permanent shift for people. Because they're not based in, you know, more information, more studying, more learning, applying. No, we want to get what has you not be effective in applying the knowledge you already have. What's in the background of human beings. You're not a lamppost, you're not a dog, you're a human being.

Yeah.

What is in the background that's giving you the actions you're taking? Because when that becomes clear for people in that three days of the forum, they walk out of there crystal clear. Anything they want to accomplish is accomplishable. Anything they want to create for their future is no longer limited by all that stuff that's been unseen by them. Does that make sense?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I felt like it was a radical shift in perspective.

That.

Ability, like you said, to see what's going on, see what's driving you, and see how your perspective may be colored. And so when you lift off, imagine it's sort of different pairs of glasses with different frames with a shield on it when you take it off. You see now all the full colors versus sort of the muted version that you only saw possibility in a small amount of areas. And now it blows it wide open. So it is really engaging and energizing.

Yeah, it is actually great the way that you said it so simply. It really does give people a new perspective on life. But more importantly, I would say it this way, like you said, it takes out of the way the barriers to people being able to see and deal with life as it actually is. You know, we all live in interpretations about life that unless Those are distinguished as interpretations. We're stuck in that interpretation. How many times have you been trying to be effective with your weight or with your communication with your significant other, and you're just stuck in some habitual way of being in that particular instance, you know, and to not have that in the way anymore for people is liberating. I mean, it's literally, they walk out of there just like, oh, my gosh, I'm no longer burdened by all the obligation and all the expectation and all the weight that's been on my shoulders given by my old perspective on life. And it's very powerful for people.

And now you've talked a bit about how it changes your listening and the importance of that for a leader. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Absolutely. So there's something about, especially given your podcast, right, is really geared towards people who are CEOs, entrepreneurs, people who, you know, these are people that are highly effective, accomplished, driven human beings that really are out to. I don't know how to say it other than, you know, put a stake in the ground, creating in the world a new kind of vision. Right. And most people, one of the fallacies that's there in the culture of our society is kind of the myth of where leadership comes from. People really do think being a good leader is how you speak. They think, if I'm going to be a better leader, I got to speak better. Well, what you and I were talking about briefly earlier that you just brought back was maybe that's a myth. Maybe the real power in leadership is in the way people listen. And if you really do look, people don't listen. Yes, people comment. There's a distinction. So our methodology, which, you know, having participated in it, is full of distinctions, and distinctions bring language to something that before then may have been kind of. You might have been aware of it, but you didn't have language for it, so it couldn't exist as what it was. And it brings clarity for people. And one of the distinctions that is powerfully created out of the forum, which is our flagship course, is the already always listening. And in that discovery of the way human beings listen, people are able to discover for themselves there's way more talking in their listening than there is any listening. You and I are constantly judging and evaluating, coming up with, analyzing what we're hearing is like, what we already know, coming up with our opinions about it. And we're constantly listening through the filter of all of that noise when we're talking to ourselves about what's being said. That we're literally not even present to what someone is actually saying. Right.

And we might not be saying anything, but we're not even present with what's going on because we're already formulating what the next we're going to say.

That's right.

You know, I see this often when I look at, I'll observe maybe CEOs in their team meetings and I ask them to start to monitor or I'll monitor how much are they speaking, how much are they asking questions, and how much are they letting their team speak. And it's interesting, the mindset shift where newer CEOs think they need to lead the whole meeting. Okay, I gotta do this. And it's not until you do that for a while and you see you're not actually engaging your team, you should be learning as you should come in with a mindset that you are learning more about what's going on with your organization. And you do that by asking questions. And, and you can't ask a good follow up question unless you've really listened and heard what the first answer to the first question was.

Yeah, very good. Because that's so well said, basically. And people can really hear that. Oh my God. I just, I don't even listen to what they're actually in fact saying. I mean, people are so checked out, they're going down the interstate, they miss their exit, three minutes later, they're like, where the heck was I? Yeah, you were talking to yourself the entire time. So people really do think leaders are born. You know, they're born, people are born with those kind of qualities of leadership. But I want you to consider, and the listeners you may already really get this is people are not born leaders. Leadership's developed. And most people don't actually pay attention to what's important and powerful in leadership, which is how they listen. And if you look at some of the people you most admire, you will mostly find with the leaders that we look at in the world, the Martin Luther Kings, the different people of the world, it wasn't in what they said, it was how they elicited leadership from others, how they elicited the bigness in others. You have somebody stand up at a boardroom meeting and most of the people are just there trying to judge, assess what they said and how, find holes so they can sound better. But that leader in the room is actually listening. What's the commitment in the background of that person speaking? And they're able to elicit that person's bigness, that person's greatness. So that they're having leadership show up around them. That's the qualities of a leader. And, you know, I was. I was saying to you earlier, before we started this, that we have this really powerful inquiry in our leadership development courses. Right. And one of them is the power of listening. And you and I can actually do that exercise. I think it might be really fun for your.

Yeah, let's do it.

So it talks. So this whole exercise is about actually being able to discover for yourself. Because it's one thing, Susan, when people say to you, oh, you should listen more. Okay. But then people just get more driven to try to listen more, but they can't actually get through what's going on in their head. So this exercise actually gives people an opportunity, and the viewers can actually practice this from the exercise that you and I do, which I think would be incredible for them. Okay, good. So this is an exercise called Listening for the Gold. So you and I are just human beings. We all have things we're passionate about. Yes. Yes. And you have. What's one thing you're super passionate about?

Hiking here in Arizona.

Okay. Okay. You live in Arizona. Perfect. Okay, so, Susan, you're gonna just speak to me. Okay. And you can't stop. This is the number one rule. Okay. You cannot stop. The one rule I have is I can't leave the video here. I have to stay in my seat. Okay, but the one rule you have is you cannot stop till I tell you you can stop. Okay.

In terms of talking about hiking.

About hiking. And, you know, you really are genuinely passionate about it, aren't you?

Yes. I mean, like an hour about it here. It's. It's one of the reasons why I live here.

Yeah, but. So you're going to speak to me about your passion about hiking, and then my job is to actively not listen to you. And you want to see what you experience when I'm not listening and what your experience is of what you're passionate about. Okay. Okay. All right. So I'm going to practice not listening, and then you're going to practice sharing into someone's. No listening. Okay.

Okay.

All right. Ready? And you can't stop, remember? Okay.

How long?

As long as I tell you. Okay. Okay. Ready? And go.

So I love hiking here in Arizona because 10 minutes outside my door, I can do an hour and a half hike, get my exercise, and be in nature. And that's what it really is for me. It's about being in nature. That ability to look at cactus, even see animals here in the desert, and some People think the desert isn't beautiful, but, man, you should be here in March and April. It's incredible. Yeah, totally.

I can give you a call back.

It's amazing.

A little bit after. Okay.

It's really hard to do this.

Okay.

So I have to keep talking. What else? Here's one of the things I mostly see. We've got a lot of loose rock and shale, and I see a lot of tourists come and they're wearing very flat shoes and they can't get a grip and they slip and fall.

Now, how is that for you?

It's pretty bad.

Yeah. The experience of it. And did your enthusiasm and passion get bigger or smaller?

Smaller, for sure. I'm like, okay, well, why should I talk anymore about this? Like, you're not. You're not. You're not listening to me. Yeah.

And most people go through life thinking, oh, well, then they get more driven to be more over the top. Or they just throw their hands up, like, screw it, like you said. Do I have to keep talking about that? Like, it's just deflating? Yes, yes, yes. And that's mostly people's. Some people do this exercise, and then at the end of it, they're like, yeah, well, that's kind of normal. My spouse never listens to me.

Yeah.

They're always doing their, you know, calendaring or their to do list or watching TV while I'm talking to them totally on their phone. Exactly. Right. So now we're going to redo this and we're going to actually do it the other way. So I am going to be listening for the goal with you, and I'm going to listen for what you're sharing is like, oh, my gosh, the best thing I've ever heard and authentically, like, getting interested in what you're sharing with me about why hiking is so fabulous. Okay.

Okay.

We're going to do this just for about 45 minutes. Okay. But I want you to see what you discover when you share. And it's actually being listened to powerfully. All right, here we go. All right, go ahead.

So hiking for me is a form of meditation, and I often actually like to hike alone. But I'm also hiking with my puppy. She's. Well, she's now nine months. And what kind of puppy she is? A toy Aussie.

Wow.

So she's got beautiful blue eyes and she's. But I call her tiny but mighty. And she has so much energy. She's super smart, and she just goes over these boulders like a tank truck. She's, you know, as we're. As we're hiking, she's motoring, motoring, motoring. And it's so cute. And it's a way that she and I kind of bond together as we experience nature. And that's. And so it's meditative for me in the sense that it's. It's my quiet time. It's my chance for reflection, but also paying attention to the beauty. And the desert has incredible beauty if you look for it. So that allows me to be grateful. I really experience gratitude as I'm hiking for the land we live in.

Okay, good. Now you could have just kept going for like an hour, couldn't you? Yeah. Yes. And what was different in your experience?

I just felt seen is the only way I put it. But I also felt like we were connecting.

Yes.

And ultimately, why are we talking? So that we build a connection.

That's right.

So when I'm talking and I feel you listening, I feel that connection. And energetically, it's incredibly powerful.

Very good. And it's amazing for the listener. I mean, before this, I never would have even thought about hiking in Arizona. Like, why would you even do that? Go hike in a mountain? Right. But I really got enrolled in. Oh, my gosh, I just got a new puppy myself. Hiking in Arizona would just be amazing. So the listener really gets into it. And you get more enlivened by the end of it. If you notice, you weren't drained, deflated, you were like, up. I mean, it was like just enlivening for you. So a whole different connection, like you said. Yes.

Now there's something about that. So I've had some leaders say to me, yeah, when I have my one on ones with my team and they come in and they're complaining about X, Y and Z, it's really hard for me not to tune out.

Yeah.

What would you say to those types of leaders about listening?

A couple things, really. A couple of things. That's so good, because whether it's in your office with your employees, or whether it's with your spouse, it's all the same. You know, people complain a lot and it's because they never actually get listened to. So people will have the same complaints over and over and over and over again because what they're saying is never actually gotten by someone else. So one of the powerful things that we really do, people get left with out of the forum is they're able to be available for listening in a way where people get gotten authentically. Because when people do get heard authentically, like they get not just you're in their shoes, but they actually get that you're experiencing life through their eyes. Mm. Whatever it is that they've been complaining about. Amazing. It just disappears. Disappears. And think about those times in your life where you talk to a best friend and they just really got you. Like, they just got what you're dealing with, what you're going through. You got off that call or out of that conversation. You were just left more at home with yourself, more at home with life. But because people never really get gotten, they say the same things over and over and over again, and then we make them wrong for it. God, they're such complainers. Well, maybe it's because we're not actually listening for what's giving that complaint. And what's always giving the complaint, by the way, is they've got a commitment in the background that's getting thwarted. If they didn't, they wouldn't just be complaining. Nobody wants to spend their life complaining, being miserable.

Right.

It's something's in the background that's a commitment that they're not fulfilling on. So all they're left with is to complain about it because they don't know how else to deal with it. So true leadership is the people that can actually get that and they can actually listen and get the communication in the background of the commitment that's there and then actually be able, from that person's view, actually be able to have that person get that you're a partner and then fulfilling on the commitment that got thwarted. Whole different way of approaching leadership.

Different way. And so this is what I want to really kind of leave listeners with, is this ability to shift your listening. The ability to shift how people feel heard will save you time. Persons think it's going to take too long to listen to it because if you can have that person feel heard, then like you said, they get off it. And you won't hear that again and again.

So.

So if you've heard it, if you keep hearing it, something, there's something that they don't feel heard on. How can you make that person really feel heard? Doesn't mean you need to agree with it.

That's right.

At least have very important heard.

And most people think they do, by the way. Sorry. Most people do think, oh, everything someone says, I've got to address that. I got to. No, no, no, no. Sometimes it's better to just let it fly by and then get back to their commitment. Because whatever you focus your attention on is what's going to drive so if you focus on that, they're a complainer. All you're going to get is more complaining. If you focus on what's the commitment in the background, that's what's going to start to be elicited. That's powerful.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Well, how can people learn more that are interested in changing the way they listen and saving time?

Yeah, for sure. Listen, whether it's our programs for, you know, people produce like people producing breakthrough results in their lives and their businesses, etc. Entrepreneurs, everybody. Our website, landmarkworldwide.com for sure is the place to go to find out about our programs. And then you'll even find out about our consulting army, which is wholly owned by us, which is Vanto Group. And Vanto Group, you know, we've worked with Fortune 100 companies around the world. Lululemon, Apple, Panda Express. We've done our programs with NASA. We offer executive coaching, all kinds of things through our Vanto Group. So that'll also be there available on that website, landmark worldwide.com fantastic.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and for listening to my passion about hiking.

So good. Thank you for having me. It really, this was awesome to be with you. Yeah.

Fantastic. All right, till next time. Hope you enjoyed today's episode and I'd like to point you to two immediate next steps. First, hit the subscribe button. Second, if you have not yet downloaded our guide to delegation where I share the strategies that CEOs of 9 and 10 figure businesses know to getting more done with your team, you can do that now@ enlightenedexec.com delegate. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive.